World Cup 2010 - Germany Thread - Auf geht's !

[ALBICELESTE2010]

FIFA should tighten the regulations otherwise it will become ridiculous.

You play for the country you were born or your parents and that's it.

You should not be allowed to make up deficiencies in your national program through naturalization,.

For example the ridiculous possibility at one stage of Almunia representing England.

Germany must be in a sorry state striker wise if they have to naturalize a Brazilian. I remember Voller refused to take on board a Brazilian striker for the 2002 WC. I forget his name.

I fear that sooner or later an Argentine talent will be snapped up by Spain or Italy. Messi for instance was approached, Higuain for France.

Instead FIFA in yet another idiotic decision decided to relax the rules.

 

[Rentalkid]

FIFA should tighten the regulations otherwise it will become ridiculous.

You play for the country you were born or your parents and that's it.

You should not be allowed to make up deficiencies in your national program through naturalization,.

For example the ridiculous possibility at one stage of Almunia representing England.

Germany must be in a sorry state striker wise if they have to naturalize a Brazilian. I remember Voller refused to take on board a Brazilian striker for the 2002 WC. I forget his name.

I fear that sooner or later an Argentine talent will be snapped up by Spain or Italy. Messi for instance was approached, Higuain for France.

Instead FIFA in yet another idiotic decision decided to relax the rules.

Dude, you better delete this post of idiocy ... really
Cacau was what??? Naturalized by the DFB? You have so little clue what you are talking about that it actually hurts.
Get your facts straight before spouting nonsense.
http://content.stuttgarter-nachrich...er-integration-cacau-ist-jetzt-deutscher.html
I know you don't understand the language, but you most likely wouldn't understand the meaning of the words no matter what language they were in ...

At least I now know exactly WHY I felt the urge to type my earlier post.

 

[eycede]

Lol, the old topic about the german players. Özil for example is born in Gelsenkirchen (Schalke), got a german mother or father. Don't know exactly. Mario Gomez is born in Riedlingen (Germany). His father is from Spain but his mother is german. He never lived in Spain. So what? Khedira is born in Stuttgart having a german mother and a father from Tunesia. He's a German undoubtfully. Klose and Podolski were born in Poland but they raised in Germany. They actually have no polish passport. Marin was born in Bosnia but he moved to Germany with his parents when he was 2 years old. Yeah, of course naturalized...

So, lets talk about the rest of the starting 11 yesterday: Thomas MÜLLER, Bastian SCHWEINSTEIGER, Philipp LAHM, Holger BADSTUBER, Arne FRIEDRICH, Per MERTESACKER, Manuel NEUER. Going on with Hans-Jörg BUTT, Tim WIESE, Stefan KIESSLING, Marcel JANSEN, Toni KROOS.

Are you kidding me? Look at the french team. Do you really think Evra, Henry, Anelka for example are real french guys??? BIG LOL!!! Actually neither Zidane was really French.

 

[lukas_rod]

FIFA should tighten the regulations otherwise it will become ridiculous.

You play for the country you were born or your parents and that's it.

You should not be allowed to make up deficiencies in your national program through naturalization,.

For example the ridiculous possibility at one stage of Almunia representing England.

Germany must be in a sorry state striker wise if they have to naturalize a Brazilian. I remember Voller refused to take on board a Brazilian striker for the 2002 WC. I forget his name.

I fear that sooner or later an Argentine talent will be snapped up by Spain or Italy. Messi for instance was approached, Higuain for France.

Instead FIFA in yet another idiotic decision decided to relax the rules.

I'm not so radical, but I think today is very easy to naturalize and play for another country.

Brasilian naturalized players:
Pepe, Marcos Senna, Deco, Cacau, Eduardo da Silva, Liédson, Amauri and some others.

BUT most of them had no opportunity in Brazil. I respect their decisions.

 

[bebo]

when I see a melting pot happening it makes the world a better place. I love it actually dual citizenship for all who abides n applies..

 

[Lami]

FIFA should tighten the regulations otherwise it will become ridiculous.

You play for the country you were born or your parents and that's it.

You should not be allowed to make up deficiencies in your national program through naturalization,.

For example the ridiculous possibility at one stage of Almunia representing England.

Germany must be in a sorry state striker wise if they have to naturalize a Brazilian. I remember Voller refused to take on board a Brazilian striker for the 2002 WC. I forget his name.

I fear that sooner or later an Argentine talent will be snapped up by Spain or Italy. Messi for instance was approached, Higuain for France.

Instead FIFA in yet another idiotic decision decided to relax the rules.

You're only against this rule because you're scared at some point argentinian talent plays for another country. But tbh that's not your decision, that's the player's decision and that's personal choice. As long as they followed the country's naturalization rules and got the citizenship then I see no reason why a player can't choose to play for that country.

Don't be so bitter, mate.

 

[ALBICELESTE2010]

Dude, you better delete this post of idiocy ... really
Cacau was what??? Naturalized by the DFB? You have so little clue what you are talking about that it actually hurts.
Get your facts straight before spouting nonsense.
http://content.stuttgarter-nachrich...er-integration-cacau-ist-jetzt-deutscher.html
I know you don't understand the language, but you most likely wouldn't understand the meaning of the words no matter what language they were in ...

At least I now know exactly WHY I felt the urge to type my earlier post.

Don't be childish. He is a Brazilian player naturalized. Is Germany that poor in striking options ? He is nowhere near the selecao which just highlights the gulf.

When it is convenient for a federation they will offer citizenship to get the player on board (just for the fact that they have played in that country for several years).

If he had been a very average player I guarantee the DFB would not have been clamouring to get him citizenship.

There are too many instances of this happening and likely to happen now.

Romania have tried to get several Argentine players to switch, Zarate is umming and ahhing between choosing Italy or not.

It's a loophole. Why bother with international football ?

El Salvador prior to the 1998 WC tournament in order to boost their chances of qualification passed legislation to naturalize several Brazilian players.

Why not just start offering inducements to promising players say from economically impoverished African federations and pass them through your own system.

Or as more and more South American kids end up at earlier ages in European club academies what about them ?

Don't be petulant and ignore some of the deliberate vagueness and problems FIFA's own rules on eligibility create Mr.Einstein.

 

[ALBICELESTE2010]

You're only against this rule because you're scared at some point argentinian talent plays for another country. But tbh that's not your decision, that's the player's decision and that's personal choice. As long as they followed the country's naturalization rules and got the citizenship then I see no reason why a player can't choose to play for that country.

Don't be so bitter, mate.

So they play in that country's academies and have funding invested them. They pop off to another country and are then inducted into that country's program.

Yes I sure the original federation will not be bitter. If Messi had ended up playing for Spain and Higuain for France I'm sure all Argentina fans would have been very happy.

As I said in the above post the naturalization of Cacau is a bit of an inditement on Germany's striking options.

Perhaps England ought to get Arteta citizenship ? After all he is unlikely to play for Spain. But that too would be an inditement on the development of players in this country.

Darron Gibson was brought up in the NI youth system but decided to choose Eire purely because he thought they had a better chance in international football of acheiving sucess. This should not be allowed also.

If we carry down this road international football will become a mockery.

 

[sauce]

We had this discussion somewhere else, I can't remember now, I thought it was weird, but someone convinced me it was not.
Honestly I had never thought about that before that hard, and the arguments there convinced me for good.
But to be honest the cases should be analyzed individually, cause seducing young, even old, players is not fair. And we all know that football sharks love to seduce players, whether is for clubs or nations, they will make whatever they have to make it happen.
Obviously there will be cases that no seduction was involved and the guy will wanna do it for himself, for whatever reasons that are, not mattering if he has or not that nation blood, a connection to a country is a feeling not a heritage.
But the main problem is how to 'cop' that around, FIFA seems to not care about these kids chasing football money wherever they offer.
Some of the talents are so poor that just offering immaterial stuff they dream is enough to trick the parents to sign stupid contracts that will ruin their kids life.

edit: Just in case, I'm not talking about Cacau at any point of this I don't even know his story...

 

[ludwig]

youve got it the wrong way round mate. i know it looks suspicious that he got a german passport in february and played his first match for the team in may, but he did not decide to become a german citizen because of that. there was no indication of jogi loew even selecting him for the squad before he started his attempt at becoming a german national. receiving a german passport isnt just a process that takes a few days you know? cacau was injured most of the season anyway. and for those games he did play in the first half of the season he was not impressive at all. it was only after the winter break that he started playing well and became more and more impressive as the season progressed. only AFTER he had become german were people starting to ask "what about that cacau guy? hes german now isnt he? hes having a decent run of form lately, maybe we should consider him." it wasnt like you are suggesting: "oh hes good. better than what weve got. oh and he hasnt played any national game yet for brazil?!! quick! lets print him a passport so he can play for us in the wc!" i mean id be equally suspicious if i werent familiar with that situation but cacau is one of the few who genuienly want to become a member of a nation because they love that nation and because they want to be part of it and be as close as possible to it. i agree there are plenty of cases where its just completely wrong and the only aim is to get them to play for your football team (kevin prince boateng springs to mind...born in germany, played through all youth teams of the german national team, trained at the youth academy at hertha and now turning up with ghana at the world cup). but cacau is honestly an exception and i am very proud to be cheering on such a great guy at the world cup for my nation (even if he robbed kiessling from my favourite team of any chance of getting into the starting line up).

 

[lo zio]

way to go guys! very nice display. i hope u can keep going like this. although (it must be said) the opposition wasn't much of a challenge for such a team as germany, u still got to get on the pitch and get the job done... and u guys sure did it!

as for muller, he really is a very nice prospect. what freaks me out of this kid is his composure. he's definitely talented, but there are dozens of very talented youngsters around europe every year..... what's really unusual is to find a talented youngster who plays with the coolness and the composure of an experienced 30 years old player.

oh and btw, if anyone 5 years ago would have told me bastian would have become a central midfielder (and such a good one!), i would have NEVER believed that!

 

[cfdh_edmundo]

Fifa do need to be a bit careful with this, it could end up like the Qatar team. They have a Senegalese (Koni), two Brazilians (Amaral and Montezini) and a Uruguayan (Soria) playing for them, it's the same in athletics (they have a lot of Kenyans running long distance track events, sometimes with pretty depressing circumstances) none of these Qatar based players grew up in or moved to Qatar for non-football reasons. I think if the players move and grow up in a country or have parents from there then it's not a problem.

I don't think there are any problems with Germany's players except maybe Cacau who, from what I remember, toured Germany as part of an urban dance act as a 19 year old and was given a contract - he'd played at Nacional of Sao Paolo. As I say for Marin, Podolski J.Boateng and Klose is no problem, but with Cacau it seems a bit bizzare.

Gibson is a special case, any Northern Irish citizen is allowed an Irish passport due to the political dispute over the region, same with Marc Wilson. Often the underage teams a 15 year old plays for can depend on which school they go to or which district they live in Northern Ireland.

 

[Tom]

Don't be childish. He is a Brazilian player naturalized. Is Germany that poor in striking options ? He is nowhere near the selecao which just highlights the gulf.

When it is convenient for a federation they will offer citizenship to get the player on board (just for the fact that they have played in that country for several years).

If he had been a very average player I guarantee the DFB would not have been clamouring to get him citizenship.

Mate, I'm afraid that's utter bollocks. You really need to do some proper digging into this matter. Cacau isn't another Sean Dundee or Paulo Rink. The DFB had nothing to do with Cacau applying for the german citizenship. It had nothing to do with football, at all.

 

[eycede]

Just wanted to say the same. I started laughing when I saw him claiming the DFB to be involved in Cacau's case.

Actually the DFB is running the whole country. Should take only a few years till the DFB is controlling the whole world. HAHA!!!!

 

[gergerger]

There should be an age limit, like "you're 15 years old, you can no longer change nationality and swap your national team, unless you have lived in that country for 10 years or something". But the problem would still be double nationality below that age limit, in which case the player would have to choose. Otherwise it's so easy to buy a young talent and change his mind. Italy already stole two of Argentina's new talents (Forestieri and another one whose name doesn't come to my mind right now) at an age where practically their parents decide for them.

Oh, and it's true about federations stealing players. Who do you think asked messi to play for spain? a spanish neighbour who saw him play? or someone related to the spanish federation? mature players often choose by themselves, but young players are often tempted.

 

[Lizarazu77]

Honestly i dont blame Ozil,Tasci or any others,thats better to choose Germany,who will be in the tournament with a better squad than Turkey have more chance to go through till final maybe,besides it must be hard for players maybe to leave where u live and go to another country for ur n.t by plane all the time for the friendly games..But every passing year there is more and more foreigners in Germant N.T,i am afraid after 15-20 years there will be only 1 or 2 real German in the team,thats really serious problem,i wonder if the German football federation has any plan to solve this problem in future...Dont call me Racist but i dont like to see 3-4 south american,3-4 bosnian,3-4 turk or whatever in Germany N.T or in any other National Team in the world,i believe every nation must play with their own childs..

 

[bebo]

I must be naive to think ppl move to a country for WC purposes unless you experience living abroad and finding a place which you feel welcome its hard to explain.

It comes down to persona I suppose and a proud Brasilian doesn`t need to prove to his country ,because you are what you are and you represent what you want to represent. If aliens came down and played football in WC. I`m sure they`ll be 2 brasilians on the squad why ? Well, Where there is footy they are Brasilian that`s my dad`s view on the matter 65 yr old .

 

[matherto]

Higuain for France.

Born in Brest...

 

[cfdh_edmundo]

Higuain was born in France as his dad was a famous (well semi famous) Argentine center back who was playing for Brest in France for one season. It's obviously not as simple as where a player was born, for instance what about the French player Rio Mavuba, who has 6 caps but was born at sea off the Angola / Zaire coast.

I think if either parent is from a different country then it's no problem for the player (e.g. Kevin Boateng for Ghana), or if they moved when they were very young (Podolski etc), or if there is a national dispute between regions (e.g. a player from Crimea playing for Russia instead of Ukraine, or someone from Northern Ireland playing for either the Republic or the south).

What is morally wrong, in my opinion, is the situation like Cacau. Where a player moves to a country at 19 for purely commercial reasons (he was in a dance band), has already played football at a reasonable level in the original country (the club in Sao Paulo), and then decides to play for his new country, despite having zero connection with the new country from when he was born to the age of 20 years old. Cacau never had a parent from Germany (like say Oliver Neuville), he didn't grow up in the country (like Asamoah), Brazil is tens of thousands of miles from Germany, he probably never even visited the country before he went on the dance tour.

To put it another way, Germany had a player about 10-15 years ago called Jorg Heinrich. He was born in the DDR, but never played for either East Germany or the united Germany team until 1995, by which time he was 26/27. Suppose he had moved to Fiorentina 5 years earlier (1993 instead of 1995) and then decided to play for Italy ? Or Barry Van Galen a Dutch player who made his debut aged 34 - he could have moved abroad and played for some other country aged say 30.

 

[Lami]

One thing I need to understand here regarding the fear of "foreign" players playing for a national team. Can someone explain what a "foreign" player is, and what a "national" player is?

For example, people mentioning the German team, in 10 years time there will be few "Germans" in the national team? Explain German to me.

German = Blonde + blue eyes + mustache?

So when immigrants born in Germany, lived all their life in Germany, are not counted as Germans and some people "fear" their takeover of the national team, then that has only one conclusion to me; Racism?

What other meaning does it have?

 

[cfdh_edmundo]

I would define "foreign" in this context as being a player who doesn't fill one of the following:

- Born in the country
- Grew up (i.e. primary, secondary or even tertiary education) in the country
- Had parents / grandparents born in the country

- Also there are conditions when a country no longer exists / split / has unresolved recognition issues - e.g. break-up of Yugoslavia / USSR etc.

I have of course outlined this pretty much in my previous post with examples... To re-cap:

Player born in Germany = German (e.g. Ballack, J.Boateng, Ozil, Kedhira, etc)
Player born elsewhere but with German parent (e.g. Neuville) = German
Player born elsewhere but educated* in Germany (e.g. Gerald Asamoah, Marin) = German

None of the above are "foreign" players, also none of them are blond-haired, so I dont see what hair colour, eye colour or facial hair have to do with it.

Cacau, not born in Germany, no german parents, not lived in Germany until he was 20. In my opinion he's not a German footballer.

There is danger here that national football will start to descend into the money-orientated mess that club football (esp. european club football) has become, where nations will start buying promising talent and the latter stages of the world cup will end-up looking like a top 10 of world economies.

 

[Lizarazu77]

Can someone explain what a "foreign" player is, and what a "national" player is?

Thats very simple,N.T player is who has German mom and German Dad,Germand grandfather,grandmother,all the rest are foreigner for me..

 

[hayabusa85]

Thats very simple,N.T player is who has German mom and German Dad,Germand grandfather,grandmother,all the rest are foreigner for me..

We can debate the semantics all night, but unfortunately it just isn't that black and white. There is much more to being "German" (or any other nationality for that matter) than having parents or grandparents born in said country.

 

[PLF]

I'm with Edmundo.

So I not only do not disapprove but LIKE the fact that Ozil, Khedira, Marin etc. play for Germany and are considered German. After all, all things considered, for me they are a LOT more German than they are Turkish, or Tunisian let's say.

Situations I don't like are ones like the Qatar team. Where they also tried to get Ailton to play for them just because he hasn't played for Brazil yet with NO connection whatsover to Qatar, they were basically buying him as a national team player! That's stupid! And that will ruin International football!

I also have to say that in certain cases, I'm still okay with this idea (liberal) even IF the player isn't born there or educated there if he has ethnicity (ancestry) from that country.

So while I'm not a fan of Pepe or Deco playing for Portugal, I am a LOT more okay with it than Ailton playing for Qatar. Because tho definitely Brazilian, at least I'm sure Pepe and Deco have Portuguese blood in them like most Brazilians. Amauri for Italy? Again, I don't like it. But I don't hate it either. At least he has some Italian ancestry anyway. Now if it was Ramires playing for Italy, I wouldn't like it as much because I don't believe he has any.

Or if Heinze was to play for Germany let's say, again I wouldn't really like it but I would still be more okay with it than Heinze playing for some other country other than Argentina.

So I'm with Edumondo regarding what it takes to be considered a national team player except I'd say I'm probably 1 level even more tolerant if the player has ancestry from there. Though this can get tricky as many people are mixed now and that would make them eligible for several countries and of course the world population is mixing more and more everyday and this will only get more complicated year by year.

 

[bebo]

well I wonder how many will appose if it was America tracing roots there . The country doesn`t have a set language more of popularity. When I got citizenship there about 200 in the room was w/ me

 

[Milanista]

I would define "foreign" in this context as being a player who doesn't fill one of the following:

- Born in the country
- Grew up (i.e. primary, secondary or even tertiary education) in the country
- Had parents / grandparents born in the country

- Also there are conditions when a country no longer exists / split / has unresolved recognition issues - e.g. break-up of Yugoslavia / USSR etc.

I have of course outlined this pretty much in my previous post with examples... To re-cap:

Player born in Germany = German (e.g. Ballack, J.Boateng, Ozil, Kedhira, etc)
Player born elsewhere but with German parent (e.g. Neuville) = German
Player born elsewhere but educated* in Germany (e.g. Gerald Asamoah, Marin) = German

None of the above are "foreign" players, also none of them are blond-haired, so I dont see what hair colour, eye colour or facial hair have to do with it.

Cacau, not born in Germany, no german parents, not lived in Germany until he was 20. In my opinion he's not a German footballer.

There is danger here that national football will start to descend into the money-orientated mess that club football (esp. european club football) has become, where nations will start buying promising talent and the latter stages of the world cup will end-up looking like a top 10 of world economies.

I think this sums it up perfectly. I don't wan't Amauri to play for Italy, but I think Balotelli warrants it 100%.

 

[lo zio]

+1
yeah i agree with edmundo too. and since most of german players respect those conditions, i'm ok with them playing for germany.

i'm absolutely not ok with camoranesi or amauri playing for italy instead, as they're not italians, they didn't grow up in italy and weren't educated by italian parents....
yeah they have italian descent but that means nothing. amauri is for all intents and purposes brazilian and camoranesi is argentinian.
and it's got nothing to do with racism. i actually love both of em, as persons and players, but i just think it's not fair to line up in your national team players who come from different countries.

that's the whole point of national football, if italians start lining up argentininans, french and dutch line up africans... and so on... well the whole concept of national teams football becomes pretty meaningless.

having said that, i would love to see cacau with some blonde moustaches

 

[Milanista]

Anyone remember Emanuel Olisadebe for Poland? A lot of politics involved to turn him into a Pole.

 

[Lami]

having said that, i would love to see cacau with some blonde moustaches

One thing I'm sure of though, I don't like it when a country's football association demands granting citizenship to a foreign player to play for their country without abiding by the country's citizenship laws and regulations.

It's all about the country's laws and regulations for me. If the rules say he should have lived there for 7 years minimum then that's how he should earn it. If he did then I couldn't care less. He's a citizen by law.

But granting him citizenship before the intended time, or breaking rules using connections, I don't like the sound of that. That's unfair to other players.

 

[PLF]

+1
yeah i agree with edmundo too. and since most of german players respect those conditions, i'm ok with them playing for germany.

i'm absolutely not ok with camoranesi or amauri playing for italy instead, as they're not italians, they didn't grow up in italy and weren't educated by italian parents....
yeah they have italian descent but that means nothing. amauri is for all intents and purposes brazilian and camoranesi is argentinian.
and it's got nothing to do with racism. i actually love both of em, as persons and players, but i just think it's not fair to line up in your national team players who come from different countries.

that's the whole point of national football, if italians start lining up argentininans, french and dutch line up africans... and so on... well the whole concept of national teams football becomes pretty meaningless.

having said that, i would love to see cacau with some blonde moustaches

I'm with you Ben. Like I said I don't really wanna see Amauri in an Italian jersey either.

But surely you prefer Camoranesi in Azzuri jersey rather than let's say Bastian Schweinsteiger! No? Maybe it's a small preference... but for me ancestry counts as something. Though very small and the other factors are far more important.

Cuz for me seeing Pepe and Deco let's say play for Portugal isn't something I like but because of the portuguese background, I'm a LOT more okay with them playing for them than let's say France!

Anyone remember Emanuel Olisadebe for Poland? A lot of politics involved to turn him into a Pole.

Yeah injuries ruined him! At one point he actually was a good striker.