PES 2009 General Discussion Etc. (STRICTLY NO FIFA TALK OR POLITICAL CHAT)

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Re: PES 2009 News Discussion & Rumours (STRICTLY NO FIFA DEMO IMPRESSIONS)

Chris Bauer said:
I would agree with you, AI off-the-ball was certainly better. In PES5/6/2008 I find that your wingers will stop dead, even if you put forward arrows on them. You hold up the ball waiting for a run and they stand there looking at you. You can move them further up the pitch by editing the formation but you need them starting further back and then running forward, not just being static in one place...


I have no idea what's happening; so many people are happy with the current engine, especially in Asia which is their biggest market. The majority over there (and the majority who read this thread) will say "if it ain't broke don't fix it", but in my opinion (and it is my opinion, despite the flaming it will bring) it is broken. It's stiff, robotic, the AI is poor (although it looks improved in PES2009) and the CPU carries on doing stupid things to try and "even things up" rather than let you play a natural game, such as delaying a button response when you're too close to defenders, or making a sprinting player knock the ball ahead a MILE when you're in the vicinity of the goal area, leaving the keeper to happily scoop it up.

Gameplay routines from the PSone days are still in there, but some still say that they were realistic then and they are realistic now; everyone has their own opinion, so I don't think it's wise to argue about it. But I don't think the game mirrors reality - some moves aren't possible because when you're within a certain "range" of the CPU the controls will seize up slightly, and that infuriates me. Things like that were required in the PSone days because the processor couldn't "think" quickly enough to react, but not now. Things have moved on hugely when it comes to the CPU power; if Seabass was the messiah that so many people claim him to be, I would like to see him build the game from the ground up for the next-gen consoles and we would see just how much of a genius he is. But I don't think we'll ever get to see that.

So no, I can't see myself ever enjoying PES again until they rebuild the engine and make the engine a lot more organic (i.e. a lot more "unchained" from the tram-lines, with a lot more freedom, and a lot less interference from the CPU).

And personally, although a lot of people don't care about it, I would want to see a wider variety of teams (preferably at least the Championship from England, Serie B from Italy etc.) - I don't like playing with Premier League teams because they're already big-time teams, I would much prefer to take a smaller team and make them a big team, or take on a bigger team online and win. Football, in my world, is not all about the best teams. I would rather watch Chester v Grimsby for a place in the League Two playoffs than Barcelona v Real Madrid for the league title.
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I fear that you're right re a new engine - it's only alive as an idea cos the wenb guys have mentioned evolution this year, revolution next - it just seems so unlike konami to actually bother with a new 2-year developed engine.

Re the attacking AI - what always surprises me is that parts of the game go backwards - probably because it's a ps1 engine shoehorned onto successive systems...
 
Re: PES 2009 News Discussion & Rumours (STRICTLY NO FIFA DEMO IMPRESSIONS)

No Valencia? That's bad news indeed. I was hoping they were in.. But well, nothing to really complain about (I'm not the one that cares that much about the licences)..

I know it won't ever be true but well, "quando smetti di sperare inizi un po' a morire" (when you stop hoping, you start dying): my hope (dream I have to call it) is to see a PES based more or less on the same logic that's behind rFactor.. I'll quote a post I made on pesmaniacs:
I, developer, put all my effort in making a proper gameplay and release the "game engine" with the minimum things for you to play with (let me say, with only 16 national teams to choose among, and NO MORE teams)..
BUT
I, developer, ensure I'll do my best to make the game as easy to mod as possible and fully customizable
AND
I, developer, provide you all the tools/knowledge you need to completely MOD the game. Adding championships (in Rfactor you can have as many championships as you want), adding teams in championships (in Rfactor you can have as much cars as you want for any championship) and having as many kits as you want for any team (in Rfactor any car can have an undefined amount of liveries).
Have a look at rfactorcentral and see how many mods have been built for Rfactor, and imagine each one of them being a league we can add in PES..
Click to expand...
Unfortunately, for a thousand reasons, I can't see this happen anytime soon..
 
Re: PES 2009 News Discussion & Rumours (STRICTLY NO FIFA DEMO IMPRESSIONS)

Chris Bauer said:
I would rather watch Chester v Grimsby for a place in the League Two playoffs than Barcelona v Real Madrid for the league title.
Click to expand...

u serious ?? :SS , alll they do is long ball it in the box or run down the wing and cross it for that big clumsy typical english striker to head the ball in or get a knock down. very boring , i would rather be playing myself outside than sitdown and watch that live or even on tv.

well it must be why you like fifa , cuz it is a slower game and more physical and direct. thats also a good thing for me as the games are both diffeerent and when i get bored with one i can play the other for a different style of gameplay. will buy both games , pes mainly for be a legend season and fifa for online leagues and clans.
 
Re: PES 2009 News Discussion & Rumours (STRICTLY NO FIFA DEMO IMPRESSIONS)

Hi.

I know your question was for Chris, but I'll chime in for a bit.

Personally, I happened to like WE8LE a lot, because it was a much more balanced game than PES4, even though you could still do some fantastic attacks.

WE7I was also great. I don't think I played WE6FE that much, so I'm not able to comment. I wasn't able to play imports at the time yet. Maybe I'm missing a lot in my PES education by not having played it :)

About Konami being developing a true next-gen engine... If that is truly happening, it might not be happening for 2010... Seabass will only release such an overhaul when he's fully confortable with it. He has dabbled with full 360º controls at a time, but he scrapped them when he noticed that the game was not ready for them yet.

Still, I do have a legitimate question for all - and let's try to keep this as civil and as educated as possible, since my question will be genuine, and not intended to be judgemental nor provoking.

The question has 3 parts:

1 - What is it that, in this current PES, keeps you saying that it is a last-gen engine.

2 - If you do, then name a couple of things in FIFA - acclaimed by all to have a next-gen engine - that can only be done because of the next-gen engine.

3 - What is it, in those features, that prevent them from being implemented in PES's current engine? What proof do you have of such claim? For instance: animations can be motion-captured, foot-planting is all about animations and physics, AI is all about algorithms... As far as I know, this just requires implementation effort, not a brand new engine.

My thoughts on this subject are the following.

From a technical standpoint, PES's engine is as next-gen as it comes. I mean, it produces code for next-gen platforms. What else does it need to do? It is simply based on the PS2 mechanics - but where does that mean that it is a limitation of the engine whatsoever?

FIFA is a different case. They were going to have a team that was going to develop the next-gen game, and they decided not to build upon their - in my opinion - terrible PS2 mechanics and gameplay, and start from scratch. They had already done this before in several times, in the same console's lifecycle. They decided to create a next-gen engine that was completely different from their PS2 one.

They happened to get it right, and improve so much that people attribute this magnificence of improvement to this new engine.

I think there's a wrong cause-and-effect here. It's the people who make the engine who also make the great features. The great features do not come from the engine. The great features are in, and they run on this engine.

Reinforcing my point:

Take Halo. Hale 3 is a similar game to Halo 1 and Halo 2. It has more flashy graphics, different physics, and I don't know what else, but the game mechanics are similar. It has similar gameplay, on an Xbox360 engine.

PES was a successful franchise. PES5 was a game that was built on ISS Pro Evo 2, adopted its mechanics and used them in a PS2 engine. PES2008 is a not so great game that was build on PES4/5, adopted some of the PES6 mechanics, and uses them in a XBox360/PS3 engine. What is it that makes it NOT a true next-gen engine?

You can debate all you want about the gameplay being similar to the older games. I'll take that - that is a thing that I like, but I admit that some may not like it.

Still, the fact that PES2008 was a not so good game has no bearing on the engine issue. PES4 was also a not so good game, yet the same engine gave us great games.

Thanks for anyone who takes the time to try and clear this up for me.

Best regards,

Paulo Tavares
 
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Re: PES 2009 News Discussion & Rumours (STRICTLY NO FIFA DEMO IMPRESSIONS)

pjft said:
Hi.

I know your question was for Chris, but I'll chime in for a bit.

Personally, I happened to like WE8LE a lot, because it was a much more balanced game than PES4, even though you could still do some fantastic attacks.

WE7I was also great. I don't think I played WE6FE that much, so I'm not able to comment. I wasn't able to play imports at the time yet. Maybe I'm missing a lot in my PES education by not having played it :)

About Konami being developing a true next-gen engine... If that is truly happening, it might not be happening for 2010... Seabass will only release such an overhaul when he's fully confortable with it. He has dabbled with full 360º controls at a time, but he scrapped them when he noticed that the game was not ready for them yet.

Still, I do have a legitimate question for all - and let's try to keep this as civil and as educated as possible, since my question will be genuine, and not intended to be judgemental nor provoking.

The question has 3 parts:

1 - What is it that, in this current PES, keeps you saying that it is a last-gen engine.

2 - If you do, then name a couple of things in FIFA - acclaimed by all to have a next-gen engine - that can only be done because of the next-gen engine.

3 - What is it, in those features, that prevent them from being implemented in PES's current engine? What proof do you have of such claim? For instance: animations can be motion-captured, foot-planting is all about animations and physics, AI is all about algorithms... As far as I know, this just requires implementation effort, not a brand new engine.

My thoughts on this subject are the following.

From a technical standpoint, PES's engine is as next-gen as it comes. I mean, it produces code for next-gen platforms. What else does it need to do? It is simply based on the PS2 mechanics - but where does that mean that it is a limitation of the engine whatsoever?

FIFA is a different case. They were going to have a team that was going to develop the next-gen game, and they decided not to build upon their - in my opinion - terrible PS2 mechanics and gameplay, and start from scratch. They had already done this before in several times, in the same console's lifecycle. They decided to create a next-gen engine that was completely different from their PS2 one.

They happened to get it right, and improve so much that people attribute this magnificence of improvement to this new engine.

I think there's a wrong cause-and-effect here. It's the people who make the engine who also make the great features. The great features do not come from the engine. The great features are in, and they run on this engine.

Reinforcing my point:

Take Halo. Hale 3 is a similar game to Halo 1 and Halo 2. It has more flashy graphics, different physics, and I don't know what else, but the game mechanics are similar. It has similar gameplay, on an Xbox260 engine.

PES was a successful franchise. PES5 was a game that was built on ISS Pro Evo 2, adopted its mechanics and used them in a PS2 engine.

PES2008 is a not so great game that was build on PES4/5, adopted some of the PES6 mechanics, and uses them in a XBox360/PS3 engine.

What is it that makes it NOT a true next-gen engine?

You can debate all you want about the gameplay being similar to the older games. I'll take that - that is a thing that I like, but I admit that some may not like it.

Still, the fact that PES2008 was a not so good game has no bearing to the engine.

PES4 was also a not so good game, and the engine gave us great games.

Thanks for anyone who takes the time to try and clear this up for me.

Best regards,

Paulo Tavares
Click to expand...



This is one of the most intelligent posts in this thread:EASY::EASY:
 
Re: PES 2009 News Discussion & Rumours (STRICTLY NO FIFA DEMO IMPRESSIONS)

pjft said:
Hi.

I know your question was for Chris, but I'll chime in for a bit.

Personally, I happened to like WE8LE a lot, because it was a much more balanced game than PES4, even though you could still do some fantastic attacks.

WE7I was also great. I don't think I played WE6FE that much, so I'm not able to comment. I wasn't able to play imports at the time yet. Maybe I'm missing a lot in my PES education by not having played it :)

About Konami being developing a true next-gen engine... If that is truly happening, it might not be happening for 2010... Seabass will only release such an overhaul when he's fully confortable with it. He has dabbled with full 360º controls at a time, but he scrapped them when he noticed that the game was not ready for them yet.

Still, I do have a legitimate question for all - and let's try to keep this as civil and as educated as possible, since my question will be genuine, and not intended to be judgemental nor provoking.

The question has 3 parts:

1 - What is it that, in this current PES, keeps you saying that it is a last-gen engine.

2 - If you do, then name a couple of things in FIFA - acclaimed by all to have a next-gen engine - that can only be done because of the next-gen engine.

3 - What is it, in those features, that prevent them from being implemented in PES's current engine? What proof do you have of such claim? For instance: animations can be motion-captured, foot-planting is all about animations and physics, AI is all about algorithms... As far as I know, this just requires implementation effort, not a brand new engine.

My thoughts on this subject are the following.

From a technical standpoint, PES's engine is as next-gen as it comes. I mean, it produces code for next-gen platforms. What else does it need to do? It is simply based on the PS2 mechanics - but where does that mean that it is a limitation of the engine whatsoever?

FIFA is a different case. They were going to have a team that was going to develop the next-gen game, and they decided not to build upon their - in my opinion - terrible PS2 mechanics and gameplay, and start from scratch. They had already done this before in several times, in the same console's lifecycle. They decided to create a next-gen engine that was completely different from their PS2 one.

They happened to get it right, and improve so much that people attribute this magnificence of improvement to this new engine.

I think there's a wrong cause-and-effect here. It's the people who make the engine who also make the great features. The great features do not come from the engine. The great features are in, and they run on this engine.

Reinforcing my point:

Take Halo. Hale 3 is a similar game to Halo 1 and Halo 2. It has more flashy graphics, different physics, and I don't know what else, but the game mechanics are similar. It has similar gameplay, on an Xbox260 engine.

PES was a successful franchise. PES5 was a game that was built on ISS Pro Evo 2, adopted its mechanics and used them in a PS2 engine.

PES2008 is a not so great game that was build on PES4/5, adopted some of the PES6 mechanics, and uses them in a XBox360/PS3 engine.

What is it that makes it NOT a true next-gen engine?

You can debate all you want about the gameplay being similar to the older games. I'll take that - that is a thing that I like, but I admit that some may not like it.

Still, the fact that PES2008 was a not so good game has no bearing to the engine.

PES4 was also a not so good game, and the engine gave us great games.

Thanks for anyone who takes the time to try and clear this up for me.

Best regards,

Paulo Tavares
Click to expand...

Well the engine is a port is it not? It's the same as the Ps2 engine that was ported over to the PS3/360. So the same issues will carry over as well. I think we are all excited to see a whole new engine built from scratch come out of Konami...
 
Re: PES 2009 News Discussion & Rumours (STRICTLY NO FIFA DEMO IMPRESSIONS)

Fozan, that looks a lot like yet another patched up PES 2008 video....
 
Re: PES 2009 News Discussion & Rumours (STRICTLY NO FIFA DEMO IMPRESSIONS)

But some issues can be fixed with a more powerful hardware, like that offered by actual consoles like PS3.
I remember back in PS2 days when the fact "we cannot add more teams because the dvd is not so big" was known as a fact. Then BR appears and the fact turned in just an urban legend. Or in 1 word: LIES.
 
Re: PES 2009 News Discussion & Rumours (STRICTLY NO FIFA DEMO IMPRESSIONS)

Hi Paulo, a quick response to your questions (I won't go into too much depth because I try to stay out of here - some people have an answer for everything, and debate quickly turns into farce in this thread - but I will answer you because I respect your opinion).

1 - What is it that, in this current PES, keeps you saying that it is a last-gen engine.
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The CPU AI is the main one, which I said in my last post. If you're a striker in the box and the ball falls to you with three defenders around you, press shoot and your reaction is delayed (I have no time for anyone who says otherwise because I see it with my own eyes every time I play PES, whether it's PES5 or PES2008). Also, when you sprint to get near to the box and suddenly your player will do a huge knock-ahead, which he stands no chance of getting, and it rolls to the goalkeeper. Also, routines such as deflections landing perfectly at an AI player's feet, time and time and time again. Also, your team-mates' movement (your wingers don't help you despite fiddling with the arrows).

These were all in effect on the PSone because the console couldn't cope with so many calculations. But they've never been amended because of all the tweaks and additional code that now lies on top of it. It would be easier to start again from scratch - but like I said, not everybody dislikes the game.

2 - If you do, then name a couple of things in FIFA - acclaimed by all to have a next-gen engine - that can only be done because of the next-gen engine.
Click to expand...
Your AI teammates move and help you out, the CPU AI is a lot more intelligent. It is a lot more realistic AI overall (even ThomasGOAL has admitted this), much more realistic movement. They react to all kinds of situations as they would in real-life. Also, the CPU doesn't need to restrict you to beat you, which PES does. FIFA still has its "cheats", I won't deny that; players will run in little circles on occasion to keep the ball in the FIFA 09 demo. But it doesn't interfere with your own players/reaction times, and that's what really puts me off the game. Playing an easy team - less interference. Playing Man Utd - your players will react like they're drunk.

Ball physics are a lot better, deflections are figured out in real-time meaning that you don't get the same thing happening every time within a certain area; it all depends on the contact on the ball and the spin on the ball.

3 - What is it, in those features, that prevent them from being implemented in PES's current engine? What proof do you have of such claim? For instance: animations can be motion-captured, foot-planting is all about animations and physics, AI is all about algorithms... As far as I know, this just requires implementation effort, not a brand new engine.
Click to expand...
The code has been built upon and built upon - it's like a tower of blocks. Take the bottom one out and you'll have problems. If they altered fundamental things now, that the game relies on, there will be bugs galore.

The way it works is; you make a calculation. There is a calculation also based on that calculation. For the next game you alter the way that the second calculation works and add a third calculation. This goes on until you have tons of calculations, and if you then alter the first one - all the other calculations (seperate and cumulative ones) will go beserk. They will need altering too because the sum of the calculation isn't anywhere near the same as it was before.

There are thousands upon thousands of calculations in a game. So it is a lot easier to start the code from scratch than alter the most basic code (the bits that are holding the game back to people like me), which will then mean spending years fixing everything that this alteration broke. Konami wouldn't do that of course, and even if they would, it would be so much better to start again - think of the years of experience they have now, going into reprogramming EVERY SINGLE AREA of the game (not just squashing the bugs).
 
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Re: PES 2009 News Discussion & Rumours (STRICTLY NO FIFA DEMO IMPRESSIONS)

naz11 said:
u serious ?? :SS , alll they do is long ball it in the box or run down the wing and cross it for that big clumsy typical english striker to head the ball in or get a knock down. very boring , i would rather be playing myself outside than sitdown and watch that live or even on tv.
Click to expand...

I'll have you know Grimsby play good passing football as much as possible, even if they are in League2, Alan Buckley believes in playing football the proper way.
 
Re: PES 2009 News Discussion & Rumours (STRICTLY NO FIFA DEMO IMPRESSIONS)

Placebo said:
I'll have you know Grimsby play good passing football as much as possible, even if they are in League2, Alan Buckley believes in playing football the proper way.
Click to expand...
:lol:

Errr I mean, yeah, that's exactly what I mean... ;)
 
Re: PES 2009 News Discussion & Rumours (STRICTLY NO FIFA DEMO IMPRESSIONS)

pes2008, suazo in inter is in benfica lolol. and the skills of dani alves are so unreal.
 
Re: PES 2009 News Discussion & Rumours (STRICTLY NO FIFA DEMO IMPRESSIONS)

The gameplay mechanics really have nothing to do with the power of the hardware, what it allows is to do it faster ie shaders on a gpu over a cpu. So computing everything for 22 players would be very difficult with a ps2 but you could very easily do nextgen fifa 2009 on a ps2 with just a few players and shoddy graphics. Next Gen would/should allow great looking games, gameplay and logic should be faster to calculate, so you don't get instances where a button press isn't registered or the ai goes crazy.

ps take mario64 compared to mario glaxy, mario 64 had better mechanics, galaxy had better routines for collision and grpahics etc!
 
Re: PES 2009 News Discussion & Rumours (STRICTLY NO FIFA DEMO IMPRESSIONS)

theCRO said:
WE6FE was a masterclass, played it to death and the bugs were hardly noticable, just fluid intutive football. If they made a Hi-res version of that full of new models, a few new animations and got rid of those outside of the foot shots that happen too much, you have perfection ladies.
Click to expand...


The whole game feels like it's really about placing the ball in the net...Though there aren't THAT many animations etc it's still the most polished and through games of soccer i ever played.
 
Re: PES 2009 News Discussion & Rumours (STRICTLY NO FIFA DEMO IMPRESSIONS)

sindii said:
The gameplay mechanics really have nothing to do with the power of the hardware
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I'm sorry but the power of the hardware has everything to do with it; what FIFA 09 on PS3/360 does can't be done on PCs, let alone PS2s. Yet PES2008 is not just the same on PS2/PS3, it's actually BETTER on the PS2. Because (in my eyes, this is my opinion and obviously that will differ), the PS2 (and PSP) suits the style of gameplay the best. Fast-paced (I'm trying not to say "arcade" because I know people hate that), and nowhere near as advanced as it should be by now. But again, the current engine is good enough for some people, and that's fair enough.

For further evidence against your point, see the FIFA thread where there's a quote from EA explaining why the game has to be totally different on PC to PS3/360. People are in uproar about it, getting a worse game on PC, but he explains it as simply as possible ( as it relates to FIFA I've spoilered it ;) ).

We heard you last year when many of you on the forums were asking for “NG on PC”. On FIFA 08 360/PS3, the gameplay and the rendering were both different than FIFA 08 PC. At the start of the FIFA 09 PC cycle, we looked at what it would take to get 360/PS3 gameplay and rendering to work on PC. What we learned quickly is that there is a big difference between the gameplay and the rendering. For the rendering, it was very scalable – same as Crysis, CoD4, etc. The better your graphics card, the better we could make FIFA PC look. If you didn’t have the best card, the game would play the same, but wouldn’t look as great. That’s what you expect for any PC game. When it came to gameplay, the story was different.

When we re-wrote the gameplay for FIFA 360/PS3 a couple years ago, we took full advantage of the multiple, multi-core processors (actually 3 essentially dual-core CPU’s on 360, and 6 available Cell processors on PS3). The bottleneck for getting “NG on PC” was the CPU (i.e. it was AI, not graphics). Unfortunately, unlike graphics/rendering, you can’t scale gameplay depending on the CPU in the machine because the game needs to “play” the same on each machine – you can't just turn off the decisions, positioning, or inverse kinematics for some of the players. Why does FIFA 360/PS3 gameplay use so much CPU compared to Crysis, CoD4, etc.? It’s because of the depth of the gameplay (21 players making 1,000 decisions/second, the new animation system, etc.) – very different from the amount of gameplay ever running in an FPS. This meant if we ported the 360/PS3 gameplay to PC and optimized it, we would have to increase the minimum spec on the CPU to a level where only around ~5% of FIFA PC gamers would meet it. As much as any of us wanted to do this, it did not make sense.
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Put simply; your average PC is one or two cores, the next-gen consoles have six cores, and the players apparently make a thousand decisions a second on next-gen consoles (I say apparently because they still make dumb decisions and EA have been known to exaggerate in the past). It's simply not possible to port that gameplay engine across to anything else, apart from maybe an extremely high-end PC. And before someone says "what about games like Crysis"; look past the graphics. 21 players (that's the human-controlled player excluded) making a thousand decisions a second is a lot more work than you walking around and shooting, with a couple of enemies dotted about.

(And by the way, to anyone who thinks that criticism of PES like this is just "moaning" and the forum can do without it, including Paulo and you Sindii, I apolgise; but you have to bear in mind that if I - or "we" if you include the others who complain about the game - really hated PES, we simply wouldn't talk about it. We would disappear off the forum. I loved PES/WE, it gave me hours upon hours of happiness. We wouldn't complain if we didn't love PES/WE so much a short time ago, and if we didn't want to see it become a game that we love to play once again.)
 
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Re: PES 2009 News Discussion & Rumours (STRICTLY NO FIFA DEMO IMPRESSIONS)

The pitch colour will be good now! good they fixed it i hated all the pitches in the last games also in pes5/6 the rounded pitch
so funny

now the pitch is nice and green
pes2009 seem to be a nice game, lower tempo, and they dont run totally like in pes2008. im gonna buy it ;)
 
Re: PES 2009 News Discussion & Rumours (STRICTLY NO FIFA DEMO IMPRESSIONS)

ThomasGOAL said:
Liga clubs under licence

Athletic Club Bilbao
FC Barcelona
Deportivo La Coruna
Espanyol
Real Madrid
Mallorca
Villarreal
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I think that's wrong.

Atletico de Madrid plays Champions League and not appear in that list.
 
Re: PES 2009 News Discussion & Rumours (STRICTLY NO FIFA DEMO IMPRESSIONS)

Niko77 said:
I think that's wrong.

Atletico de Madrid plays Champions League and not appear in that list.
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theres no oficial confirmation that the CL teams will be licensed just because konami got the CL license...
i think the best cenario we can have is that those teams will be licensed only in the CL mode...but knowing konami i doubt about that...
i think CL license will be a mere gimmic. Wont really help with the club licenses.
 
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