Gameplay Mechanics of WE/PES

could one of u guys tell me how to do this super cancel business on the xbox. i have seen commands for the ps2 but i dont know what the buttons are for xbox. anybody know how its done on xbox?
 
Sorry Rune, but I don't need someone to tell me how Super-Cancel works or that I'm pressing the wrong buttons, I've been playing this game for a long, long time and can tell the difference. Just today, I went back and hada shot of WE7I, lo and behold when I press shoot in a certain direction it will shoot in that direction every time. No amount of pressing the wrong buttons can explain the AI making my defender score a bullet header into his own net. I'd call that affecting how my players react, even if you wouldn't.

Helping out the inferior player, here's how that works. A good player used to be able to convert 90%+ of their chances because they knew what to press and when to press it. A rookie player would convert far less chances because they didn't know what to press and when to press it. When the game evolves to the point where it introduces a more random element, where it decides and shots go in the wrong direction, this penalises the better player who could finish their chances - it doesn't penalise someone who missed them anyway. Understand?


I think it's best that we agree to disagree, it's absolutely clear we don't share the same opinion and nothing will convince you that the AI does these things. I'll also never be convinced I'm pressing "the wrong buttons".
 
ClassicD said:
Helping out the inferior player, here's how that works. A good player used to be able to convert 90%+ of their chances because they knew what to press and when to press it. A rookie player would convert far less chances because they didn't know what to press and when to press it. When the game evolves to the point where it introduces a more random element, where it decides and shots go in the wrong direction, this penalises the better player who could finish their chances - it doesn't penalise someone who missed them anyway. Understand?
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Thats obviously wrong cuz if you do the test that I suggested, it would prove your point wrong. If you take a player in training and tried a one on one attempt, if you can build up the bar to the same level and hold the same direction every time, you'll always get the same result. If what you were saying is true then something different would happen.
If you dont believe me, go and try it out. If you do something wrong, its not because the game decided its wrong.

As for the lesson in Super Cancelling, its to show people here that it can be used against the CPU when you think they are restricting your control. If you cant do anything with Super Cancelling, you only have yourself to blame.
 
ClassicD said:
I'll also never be convinced I'm pressing "the wrong buttons".
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By that I mean things like not pressing a button long enough or not adding the right amount of power to shots, etc.
So when you take a shot and miss, instead of blaming the game that they decided it should miss, maybe you should think about what went wrong with your execution of the shot.
 
Training and actual games are two completely different things. Also, I'll add that you can't do what you suggest (same result, everytime), even in training.
 
Rune, I kind of wanted to end the debate between myself and you because it's clear we don't agree. I've already given my opinion on the game not performing the same task when you input an identical commmand, and I stand by that, so why do you continue to repeat yourself when I've said we should just agree to disagree? I think you're wrong, you think I'm wrong, it's not a hard concept to grasp.

Not to mention, earlier on you said that it's better the game has this interference because it makes it more like real football, "anything can happen". So which is it, you're contradicting yourself here?
 
ClassicD said:
Not to mention, earlier on you said that it's better the game has this interference because it makes it more like real football, "anything can happen". So which is it, you're contradicting yourself here?
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Theres two different issues here. One is the AI of the computer which DOES cheat cuz it supposed to like in all games, which we all (or atleast most) agree on. The second is when you say the computer also controls YOUR fate which it clearly doesnt cuz it can be tested and proven as I suggested above. When the CPU cheats, it can only control itself, it doesnt take control of your players too.
 
And with that, I will say yes, it does affect your players as well. So agree to disagree, no matter how many people post that this happens. ;)
 
I'm not saying that I'm 100% correct. As far as I know, someone else might try doing what I suggested and have different results.
But disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing is kinda pointless.

And btw, my original posts werent directed at you alone.
 
Agreeing to disagree is the best thing to do, because all that'll happen otherwise is we both repeat ourselves time and again, what's the point?

Knock yourself out.
 
Well if you were gonna respond to different opinions with a "I dont give a shit what you think" approach, what was the point of this thread?
 
RuneEdge said:
Theres two different issues here. One is the AI of the computer which DOES cheat cuz it supposed to like in all games, which we all (or atleast most) agree on. The second is when you say the computer also controls YOUR fate which it clearly doesnt cuz it can be tested and proven as I suggested above. When the CPU cheats, it can only control itself, it doesnt take control of your players too.
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Like Classic D says......I reckon we are just at loggerheads here saying the same things time and time again....

So if I may repeat the same old spiel one more time.......

The AI tilting the pitch to make for a varying balance of gameplay has always been a feature of the PES series IN THE TWO PLAYER GAME and if implemented subtly can work very well. However, so many people I know who have played the series fantically since day 1 have become a tad alienated due to the antics of PES5. I have had frineds since day one screaming in disgust and anguish about "too much CPU intervention". inititally I said they were just bad losers but after having played hundreds of hours of 2 PLAYER PES5, the facts are staring me in the face.

Why is it in 2 PLAYER games sometimes goals just happen without you even trying yet other times you can go 5 games in a row without a goal being scored. Why is it I recently beat my mate 3-0 in a tourney effortlessy, but not 20 minutes after that match he beat me 3-0 in the 'return' in an equally comprehensive fashion. In the game I won I remember feeling like I could do no wrong whilst poor old Mikey was putting a rupture inducing amount of effort into playing me.......but the AI simply was not letting him get into the game. With the Exact same teams and exact same formations just 20 minutes alter though......it was a complete role reversal where I was pounding 150% effort into the control pad and Mikey (my mate) was just effortlessy gliding past my CB's. I realised at this point that the game was a croc of shit and that nothing I could possibly do against a player of equal ability (slightly lesser ability actaully) in this particular match was going to be rewarded.

This Rune, is the BIG FUCKING REASON why EVERYONE finds PES5 tobe the most frustrating and aggravating footie game known to man.......whether they realise it or not. This is why the attitude of most folk (including myself) can be so bad when playing the online game. It is a result of the competitive spirit being repeatedly frustrated and indeed shafted over by an AI phenomena totally outwith any direct human control.

Of course the way around this is to only play the gamne to exploit the flaws....(i.e. exculsively attempt cut-backs), this is the only way that u can secure a high win rate. But play the game like a gentleman or to entertain yourself then you really are so much at the mercy of the CPU AI system.

Think about how little control the player has over the general positioning of the players etc.... It is all CPU controlled and it is CPU determined whether it is going to allow for gaps or totally snuff out all options.....and this is how PES5 works.....sometimes the AI just says...NOPE, SORRY GUYS, SHOPS CLOSED, just as other times it allows the goals to fly in relentlessly.......hence creating the allusion of being "JUST LIKE REAL FOOTBALL"
 
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RuneEdge said:
Well if you were gonna respond to different opinions with a "I dont give a shit what you think" approach, what was the point of this thread?
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:roll:

Because I am interested in what you think, but I'm not interested in hearing you repeat it over and over again, thinking that's going to make me agree with you. I'm sure others don't want to read me posting the same stuff repeatedly either.

I tried to be as non-confrontational as possible when I said let's just agree to disagree, but you seem intent on arguing with comments like the one you just made. So let me put it another way - I don't need condescending posts like your's, telling me I'm hitting the wrong buttons or that I don't know how to use super-cancel.

I respected your opinion to the point where I accepted that was what you thought, and that's fair enough. Why can't you do the same, why do you feel the need to descend into an argument, put words into my mouth (regarding my 'approach', as you put it), and not let it be?
 
You do realise that small things like the arrows showing the players form and fatigue have a huge effect on the game? If your form is in red, that player would get a huge boost in most of his stats (as shown in that table that Konami released) and once your fatigue in a game is below half, your physical stats have a massive reduction too.
I've had games where my keeper just stood there when people took shots on goal. Of course this is the kind of thing you blame the game for but when I go to the formation screen, I see that his form was bad which then reduced his stats (the gk was shit to start with so that didnt help things either).
As I said, the CPU does cheat when its playing but it never does anything to affect what happens when YOU control things.
 
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RuneEdge said:
As for the lesson in Super Cancelling, its to show people here that it can be used against the CPU when you think they are restricting your control. If you cant do anything with Super Cancelling, you only have yourself to blame.
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The super cancel sucks. Trying to make subtle movements with it is impossible.
 
RuneEdge said:
You do realise that small things like the arrows showing the players form and fatigue have a huge effect on the game? If your form is in red, that player would get a huge boost in most of his stats (as shown in that table that Konami released) and once your fatigue in a game is below half, your physical stats have a massive reduction too.
I've had games where my keeper just stood there when people took shots on goal. Of course this is the kind of thing you blame the game for but when I go to the formation screen, I see that his form was bad which then reduced his stats (the gk was shit to start with so that didnt help things either).
As I said, the CPU does cheat when its playing but it never does anything to affect what happens when YOU control things.
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There were arrows in the old versions as well, so that is a moot point!

You are repeating yourself again.

Let me try, one more time, to make this clear. The AI took control of my player, and scored into my own net. I pressed header in completely the opposite direction, and not only did it ignore that command, it went a step further and issued it's own. I did not press the wrong button. It is nothing to do with super-cancel. It is nothing to do with form arrows.

This is my view. Accept that this is my view. Stop telling me and other people who have these views, that they're just doing something wrong. You either accept that people have a different opinion, or you are saying they're lying.

GIVE IT A FUCKING REST.
 
ClassicD said:
Let me try, one more time, to make this clear. The AI took control of my player, and scored into my own net. I pressed header in completely the opposite direction, and not only did it ignore that command, it went a step further and issued it's own. I did not press the wrong button. It is nothing to do with super-cancel. It is nothing to do with form arrows.
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So you're telling me that you tried to clear the ball but instead the player heads it into his own net as if he was playing for the opposite team? If thats the case that I dont know what you're talking about cuz I've never experienced that in my life and I've played the game long enough that people have called me a weirdo.
 
ClassicD said:
There were arrows in the old versions as well, so that is a moot point!

You are repeating yourself again.

Let me try, one more time, to make this clear. The AI took control of my player, and scored into my own net. I pressed header in completely the opposite direction, and not only did it ignore that command, it went a step further and issued it's own. I did not press the wrong button. It is nothing to do with super-cancel. It is nothing to do with form arrows.

This is my view. Accept that this is my view. Stop telling me and other people who have these views, that they're just doing something wrong. You either accept that people have a different opinion, or you are saying they're lying.

GIVE IT A FUCKING REST.
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This has happened to me on several occassions, however in my experience, the defender cleared the ball up and over the sidelines from my box while I was pressing the "X" button to pass.
 
it has happend to me a few times too. notably when im winning a game and the ai is pressing for leveller. i remeber madly trying to clear the ball and felt stupidly over powerd by the ai. i pressed the direction opposite to goal but for some gay reason the ball lobbed my goalie. it pissed me off so much i turned of my xbox and dint plat pes5 for a few weeks.
 
RuneEdge said:
As I said, the CPU does cheat when its playing but it never does anything to affect what happens when YOU control things.
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Oh, but it most certainly does and so you are completely wrong in that assertion.

You can choose to believe what you want but the fact that you've never noticed it happening is no proof that it does not happen.

When the guy I'm supposedly controlling completely changes direction from that which I'm pressing on my controller, even for a split second, then that is AI engine taking control away from me....cheating. When the guy I'm supposed to be controlling has his speed reduced for a second in order to prevent him reaching a loose ball before a cpu guy, but his speed returns to normal as soon as the cpu player has reached the ball, that is that is AI engine taking control away from me....cheating.

You've never noticed this sort of thing happening? Well, bully for you, mate. I wish I could be as ignorant.
 
I think one explanation for those of you heading into your own goal, is that you were holding onto the direction pad from a previous move from a previous situation, just before the opponent crosses the ball. I have encountered this problem myself, and I kinda feel like the Com have "over-read" my input, and I will have to let go of the d-pad and "re-press" the direction button again to "put" things back into order. And sometimes when you pre-empt your clearance by holding onto square way too early, the computer will ALWAYS head the ball backwards in some weird direction with you having no control whatsoever. Furthermore, in some recent versions, while defending corners/crosses you sometimes HAVE to hold down or up on the d-pad while heading clear, instead of the foward/backward direction, or you will almost certainly lose the header and also concede the goal. Hope you guys know what i'm talking about.
 
winston said:
Oh, but it most certainly does and so you are completely wrong in that assertion.

You can choose to believe what you want but the fact that you've never noticed it happening is no proof that it does not happen.

When the guy I'm supposedly controlling completely changes direction from that which I'm pressing on my controller, even for a split second, then that is AI engine taking control away from me....cheating. When the guy I'm supposed to be controlling has his speed reduced for a second in order to prevent him reaching a loose ball before a cpu guy, but his speed returns to normal as soon as the cpu player has reached the ball, that is that is AI engine taking control away from me....cheating.

You've never noticed this sort of thing happening? Well, bully for you, mate. I wish I could be as ignorant.
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mate you are completly right. it happens all the time. if there some guys who dont thing it happens then play pes3 and realise how wonderfully the game physics are then go back to pes 5 and realise how shit the game is. trust me i have been a very very very very big fan of iss/pro games since day one and trust me the game has changed so much since pes 4 its just shocking.i almost cried that they have ruined it that much man.bring back pes 3 physics konami please please please for fuck sake
 
winston said:
You can choose to believe what you want but the fact that you've never noticed it happening is no proof that it does not happen.
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Fair point but this also means that just cuz you saw something happen, its also wrong to assume why or how it happened (in your case, the CPU taking over control).
Seabass clearly states in the official guide that every situation is decided using calculations that take into account things such as your stats, fatigue, etc. If for example you were one on one with the keeper, things like your shooting stats, you position in relation to the keeper and the goal, whether or not the player is in form, etc are all used to calulate your odds of scoring. And then theres the keepers stats, fatigue, etc that you also have to take into consideration. Without these calculations, the odds would remain 50/50. But once you take into account all the details, then the odds are made to favour one person or the other and making the situation into a 30/70 or a 10/90 situation. Now just cuz you have a 10% chance of missing, it doesnt mean its impossible for it to happen. But when you DO miss, you seem to call it "CPU interfering".
Its like tossing a coin. If you called heads but you got tails, would you sasy the coin interfered with you? Of course not. Its just a probable outcome that didnt go your way. Theres no one to blame for it.
Its the same with this game, if the game made a calculation and it didnt favour you, theres no one to blame for it. The only thing you can do is tip the scale in your favour even further by increasing your odds (for example, moving into an even better position to shoot for goal).
This is why I say you have more control in this game.
 
I appreciate that there is much complex computation going on at all times in the game engine and it is truly impressive what they have achieved.

Also, I see complaints by people that the game cheated because they missed an easy chance and sometimes, it can be either bad play on their part, or there can be a good "reason", with all the stats, form, etc meaning that the striker was having an off-day, so missed.

But there are many moments of crude cheating, pure cheating which cannot be explained away by stats, form, morale, home advantage, etc. As Classic has stated, Konami themselves have admitted that the AI can be cheap at times.

For all that the game is a massive achievement, to make it challenging to the best players, by their own admission, they've had to resort to cheap (cheat) tactics.

I think this thread is not about whether or not the game cheats, because Konami admit it cheats (so goodness knows why people still deny it). It's about whether the mutiple intangible factors embedded within the game engine that hugley impact upon the gameplay have now been overdone. So, if you have an open goal, aim straight forward and press shoot, there's still a chance you'll miss because the game engine decides that your striker is off-form, away from home, getting tired and his cat died that morning, so we'll make him miss. It makes the game "seem" to play out more realistically, but it removes total control from the player, meaning pure skill with your joypad alone is not enough...luck, and all those other factors come into play also.

Whilst I do think all these intangible factors should play a part, I tend to agree with Classic that it's now overdone. The gameplay gets smothered by them and is clearly used, indeed abused, to give the cpu team huge advantages, particularly on 6*.
 
RuneEdge said:
Fair point but this also means that just cuz you saw something happen, its also wrong to assume why or how it happened (in your case, the CPU taking over control).
Seabass clearly states in the official guide that every situation is decided using calculations that take into account things such as your stats, fatigue, etc. If for example you were one on one with the keeper, things like your shooting stats, you position in relation to the keeper and the goal, whether or not the player is in form, etc are all used to calulate your odds of scoring. And then theres the keepers stats, fatigue, etc that you also have to take into consideration. Without these calculations, the odds would remain 50/50. But once you take into account all the details, then the odds are made to favour one person or the other and making the situation into a 30/70 or a 10/90 situation. Now just cuz you have a 10% chance of missing, it doesnt mean its impossible for it to happen. But when you DO miss, you seem to call it "CPU interfering".
Its like tossing a coin. If you called heads but you got tails, would you sasy the coin interfered with you? Of course not. Its just a probable outcome that didnt go your way. Theres no one to blame for it.
Its the same with this game, if the game made a calculation and it didnt favour you, theres no one to blame for it. The only thing you can do is tip the scale in your favour even further by increasing your odds (for example, moving into an even better position to shoot for goal).
This is why I say you have more control in this game.
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Completely agree with that!
 
winston said:
I think this thread is not about whether or not the game cheats, because Konami admit it cheats (so goodness knows why people still deny it).
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Do I need to explain myself again? When they say the AI cheats, they mean exactly that, the CPU's AI. And this isnt anything unusual cuz most modern games cheat in that sense. So this is something we all (including Konami) agree on.
But what you're disagreeing with is what I said above about the game making calculations to determine what YOUR players do. This is where the game doesnt cheat as I explained above. If something didnt go your way, instead of whining, try thinking about why it really happened and you might notice little things that you could have done to avoid the situation.

And I understand what you mean when you said that although its impressive, the indepth engine is ruining the fun. All I can say to that is that PES is supposed to be a soccer simulation so its gonna try to simulate the real game as much as possible (hence the little details like stats and fatigue levels, etc that cant be found in other games). And this is also why the Japanese WE versions are always slower than the PES equivelant cuz this game tries to be as accurate as possible. Now there are two ways you can play this game. You can either whine and moan and go back to previous games, or you can accept that this game is trying to be as accurate as possible and try to adapt to it.
I remember when WE9 came out, some of my friends couldnt play it cuz they dont have mod chips. But when PES5 came out, they came over to my house to play and I remember them complaining about the exact same things that you are. Even whilst playing, he would be saying "what a shit game" every few seconds, almost as if he was making fun of the game rather than just disliking it. But after a few days, those words started to fade out and now he even takes part in local tournaments.
Its all up to you whether you want to put the effort into making the game fun for yourself.I know this line has been overused by PES fanboys but if you dont like it, go and play FIFA.
 
RuneEdge said:
So you're telling me that you tried to clear the ball but instead the player heads it into his own net as if he was playing for the opposite team? If thats the case that I dont know what you're talking about cuz I've never experienced that in my life and I've played the game long enough that people have called me a weirdo.
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Yes, that is exactly what happened.

As mentioned, how do you explain stuff like the 'baby-steps' your players sometimes decide to take until the AI player is nearer the ball, apon which they are then 'released' and able to run freely again? Super-cancel has no effect here, btw. And even if it did, it doesn't matter, it's proof that the AI is impacting on your players and not just it's own. Remember that the AI also completely controls all your players apart from the one you've got selected (apparently), so it's perfectly capable of doing this.

muffin, completely understand what you mean RE 'queuing up' commands and sometimes they get messed up, I find this happening myself fairly often. I assure you that's not what happened here, though.

Completely agree with Winston's post.
 
ClassicD said:
As mentioned, how do you explain stuff like the 'baby-steps' your players sometimes decide to take until the AI player is nearer the ball, apon which they are then 'released' and able to run freely again?
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Not sure what you mean here.
 
Ok, the ball breaks loose, and your instruct your selected player to dash after it. At the same time, an AI player is attempting to get to the loose ball too, but he's clearly going to lose out because he's too far away. Your player then stops his dash and starts taking tiny steps, slowing down, until the AI player who has ran at full speed the entire time, is nearer to the ball than your player. As soon as he's clearly going to get to the ball first, the game 'releases' your player from it's grip and lets you re-assume control of him again, but of course by this time it's too late.

The thing is if you watch a replay of the incident, you can actually see the game fucking with your man. Sometimes he'll do a strange animation, and other times he'll do the animation for a full-on, :r1: sprint, but move at an extremely slow speed.

Super-cancel does nothing here.
 
ClassicD said:
Ok, the ball breaks loose, and your instruct your selected player to dash after it. At the same time, an AI player is attempting to get to the loose ball too, but he's clearly going to lose out because he's too far away. Your player then stops his dash and starts taking tiny steps, slowing down, until the AI player who has ran at full speed the entire time, is nearer to the ball than your player. As soon as he's clearly going to get to the ball first, the game 'releases' your player from it's grip and lets you re-assume control of him again, but of course by this time it's too late.

The thing is if you watch a replay of the incident, you can actually see the game fucking with your man. Sometimes he'll do a strange animation, and other times he'll do the animation for a full-on, :r1: sprint, but move at an extremely slow speed.

Super-cancel does nothing here.
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Again, this is against the CPU. Whats the problem when two humans play?
 
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