Gameplay Mechanics of WE/PES

Same with me Adonis.
I've lost interest in WE9, maybe getting old and lack of time.
But it just does not seem that exciting any longer.
I think there is a lot of scripting in the ML.
I played one ML on WE9, with 1 team running 5 seasons, and stopped
3 months ago.

I hope the next-gen WE on PS3 will be more exciting.
 
ClassicD said:
After thinking about a point made by Adonis earlier, that the last few versions haven't had the same excitement factor whilst you waited on their release, I had a look for the number of versions we've had on PS2 compared to PS1:

PS1

* Winning Eleven J-League
* Winning Eleven J-League 97 (or Goal Storm 97)
* Winning Eleven 3 (or ISS 98 )
* Winning Eleven 3 Final
* Winning Eleven 4
* Winning Eleven 2000 U-23
* Winning Eleven 2002


PlayStation 2

* Winning Eleven 5
* Winning Eleven 5 J-League
* Winning Eleven 5 Final Evolution
* Winning Eleven 6
* Winning Eleven 6 J-League
* Winning Eleven 6 Final Evolution
* Winning Eleven 6 International
* Winning Eleven 7
* Winning Eleven 7 International
* Winning Eleven 8
* Winning Eleven 8 J-League
* Winning Eleven 8 K-League
* Winning Eleven 8 International
* Winning Eleven 8 Tactics European Club
* Winning Eleven 8 Tactics J-League
* Winning Eleven 8 LiveWare Evolution
* Winning Eleven 9
* Winning Eleven 9 International

Now I know there are sort of multiple versions in there, but still! No wonder it feels like the series is stagnating a bit! :shock:
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But how many of those were released outside of Japan and Korea?
Japan are WE crazy so they can still enjoy it. But us on the other hand shouldnt even be playing all those versions mentioned there. Its pretty simple, the more games you own, the quicker you get bored. If you tried to get a hold of every game and got bored so easily, you only have yourself to blame.
The lack of fun in the latest games is probably down to the fact that the changes between PES3 and PES5 havent been big enough. So it still seems like you're playing the same game.

ClassicD said:
P.S. Rune, it'd be "an 8 year old".
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I enjoy the original ISS Pro Evolution for master league. Ok its basic and more simple than PES5 but appears to talk less bullshit in my opinion. Also the first ever PES on PS2 was pretty decent for that as well. As the series has got older and more figures and stats get chucked in and the 6 star level appears I think its gone too far.

DJ
 
Hey...when all is said and done, on its day PES5 is still the best footie game ever made....

If u could only get rid off the scripted gameplay then despite its other flaws, I would consider it a worthy progression of the series.

Whilst I state that PES3 is my favourite PES I dont think I would want to go back to playing PES3 other then PES5......but certainly PES3 is the one I seem to remember haviong the most fun with and also having the least frustration and panic attacks with.
 
RuneEdge said:
But how many of those were released outside of Japan and Korea?
Japan are WE crazy so they can still enjoy it. But us on the other hand shouldnt even be playing all those versions mentioned there. Its pretty simple, the more games you own, the quicker you get bored. If you tried to get a hold of every game and got bored so easily, you only have yourself to blame.
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None of those titles were released in the EU, but I'd say the majority of people browsing this section of Evo-Web have played most of them. I still enjoy every version, even if there are a lot, but clearly the PS2 has gotten more out of WE than PS1 did. Towards the end of the PS1 life-cycle, it didn't feel as if the series was getting a bit samey, it does on PS2 (Adonis also referred to this in terms of how each new version looked).

True, none of those versions are meant for PAL gamers. However, when you take into consideration 99% of people who play the Japanese versions know full-well the PAL release will be more or less identical and don't really expect improvements from it, then those people are in the same boat as the Japanese public who do have access to all those titles. For example, I don't really play the Pro Evolution games, it's usually WE-only for me, so I'm essentially the same as someone in Japan who doesn't play PES but has access to all those versions of WE.

Adonis, there's a link to a boxshot of that WE in my reply to Milanista, it doesn't look like it uses the WE engine. I think the first ISS Pro was Winning Eleven 3, not sure though.
 
But the thing is that Japan get so many versions because they wont get bored of it. So when you say that 99% of people playing the Jap versions are on the same boat, technically they should enjoy every version just like the Japanese public. Obviously this aint the case cuz most of us here DO get bored quickly.
So unless you're a crazy WE fan, you shouldnt really be buying all of those versions.
 
I'm sure there are folk in Japan who feel similarly, that the series is getting a little old on current-gen machines. You can't state as fact that no one in Japan ever gets a little fed up with the game from time to time.
 
I can't say that the majority of people here who play Winning Eleven feel that way either, I'm just saying it's how I feel. There is no need to tag any "blame" to the situation, every game becomes boring in the end it's just the matter of the individual playing it that determines when that is.
 
Well most people here ARE bored of the game and they've let that opinion be known.
 
ClassicD said:
Why was it different, not the same game engine? Did the same guys make it (KCET/KTYO)? Definitely doesn't look like it:

http://www.playstation.jp/products/software/jacket.php?l=slps00272b
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It was a KCET game, with the same usual WE controls. The engine feels incredibly raw if you try playing that game now. The only way to score was by pressing :circle: (which was cross) while facing the goal as it would lob the goalie.

Rockykabir posted a full list of WE games in the Retro Football thread in the games section which lists some KCET and KCEO games you missed.
 
True, like Classic...I never buy the PES games, in fact I don't even get the US versions, inspite of being in the US.
I just get the Jap versions, not even the J-league games.
One or two games a year is the max.

Offtopic:
Does anyone know if the next WE will still be on PS2 or on PS3 ?
And when it might be expected.
 
WE10 will be on PS2 and PS3 (when it eventually surfaces)

I think WE10 will be the last one on PS2 from what I can gather.

DJ
 
I get bored if I don't get a new pes or we every few months. After a while of intense pes/we playing, certain gameplay limitations or 'gameplay mechanics' start to irritate me. That's when i start longing for a new version (for instance WE9JL) which always has slight gameplay tweaks that make the game better, more unpredictable and more enjoyable. If it was up to me i would get a new new pes or we every three months (if gameplay is improved every time) instead of getting one every year.
 
Just went back to WE9 after 4 months. I applied the Wendetta patch and
played a couple of friendlies, it was ok.

Started a konami cup, and turned off accumulated fatigue.
Played a match where it was terrible, every pass was laboured,
and you could feel you did'nt have much control.
Nothing to do with fatigue obviously, or form, since players were
in decent form.

Things like this are frustrating for the single-player experience.
I probably will not buy another WE till the PS3 comes out,
especially seeing that WE10 looks like a minor enhancement.
 
There was a link somewhere once upon a time where you could download ISSPE2 and a load of multiplayer tools, too. The multiplayer wouldn't work for me (what was happening on my screen was always TOTALLY different from what was happening on the opponents), but the game was fab.

I think I will be going back to that, if I ever find the link again.
 
RuneEdge i am with you agree 100%,thankyou for trying to explain/help all other WE/PES players how much better the game has evolved over the years.YES!! WE9/PES5 is the single greatest soccer/Football Game ever CREATED! ClassicD/Others you must broaden(sp) ur view of the Gameplay Mechanics,its like comparing a volkswagon(WE8)to a mercedes(WE9) come on ! people,see it feel it,aight
 
You're bound to get bored of PES and WE pretty quickly it has all the depth of a egg cup!!! two tiny leagues and a flimsy so called champions league and cup option, not to even mention the lighter than light management side. It's a bulimic game that promises much each new FE or I installment then goes and pukes up before release so all you get are some more FECKIN hair styles, hair bands, sock styles and boots oh and an old trick!! 2006... 2006 for god's sake!!!
 
ClassicD said:
The game used to be about who played the better football, who was better at the game would usually triumph. [..] The best matches I ever had were in the older games, with my cousin who started out maybe just a level or so below me but he improved, and eventually I had to concede he was slightly better at WE in the end! We had some amazing matches, comebacks, etc. One game in particular stands out, on WE4. We were doing France vs Brasil, and it finished 5-5 after 90 mins! It went to ET and Golden Goal was on, both sides had chances and was pure excitement as each pushed for the win. Eventually he pushed his luck too far, and I robbed him of possession mid-way inside my own half with Henry. I then took him on a 60 yard dribble up the pitch, and won the game 6-5.[..] Dribbling past a few players and scoring was not an easy thing to do, so a 60-yard run to score the winning goal in an 11-goal match was quite something, we still remember it today even though it happened what must be about 6 years ago! Of course, you also didn't have to contend with player catch-up at that point, another example of the series being more player-controlled than scripted.
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You reminded me of the days I spent playing PES3. Had the most amazing games there, with friends. We frequently had games where concentration and skill mattered most of all. If you conceded a goal, it ~always was because you did something wrong. There were no odd flukes. But there were lots of sudden changes, still. We established a "whoever scores against me before I score loses" rule, because in literally every game we played that was the case. I need to be smacked a bit before I start making a real effort. Even if somebody was 3-0 down, that didn't mean they were out. Catching up by scoring 3 goals in a row was not seen seldomly, but it never felt like the AI was intervening. Losing a player to a red card as well was because you actually fouled too much, yet did not mean you had to lose - in countless games I lost 1 or even 2 players, yet won in the end. The only thing that really bothers me when going back to PES3 is that long shots seem a slight slight bit too weak (it's nearly impossible to score from volley shots outside of the box) and that passes frequently go to somebody you don't want them to go to, but that is because of the players the AI selects to receive the ball. But it is just soooo incredibly refreshing to see Henry and Owen actually equipped with speed again, while they just crawl along slowly in PES5.
 
MERCURIAL said:
RuneEdge i am with you agree 100%,thankyou for trying to explain/help all other WE/PES players how much better the game has evolved over the years.YES!! WE9/PES5 is the single greatest soccer/Football Game ever CREATED! ClassicD/Others you must broaden(sp) ur view of the Gameplay Mechanics,its like comparing a volkswagon(WE8)to a mercedes(WE9) come on ! people,see it feel it,aight
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Thank you for actually taking the time to read the posts, unlike other people around here. :roll:
 
Your posts were read RuneEdge, they were just not agreed apon. After reading the same stuff two or three times, who can blame anyone for not reading anymore?
 
RuneEdge said:
Thank you for actually taking the time to read the posts, unlike other people around here. :roll:
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Plenty of us read your posts, we just couldn't stop laughing at your gullibility.

You're a Konami fanboy and you're less intelligent than some of us. You're entitled to your opinion but we don't have to respect it.

Do you seriously expect Seabass to say his AI model sucks? What a gullible fool. I'll always believe what I see happening in front of my eyes before I believe some corporate horse-sh*t.

Try considering why 6* is far more difficult than 1*. Try thinking about the programming techiniques they used to achieve this. Then consider how pathetic and obsequious your posts have been.

It's a computer program, not real life. Konami have not written real life, they have written an extremely limited computer program.

Let me say it again, PES is NOT real life, so stop drawing comparisons with it.
 
In my opinion it all boils down to ones preferences...
None stops anyone from sticking to older version, NONE is going to change his mind or accept others opinions.
For me I cannot go back to PES4, the lack of physics/animations and general feel of toughness cannot be compensated by any Fifalike perception of "fun".
PES5 is the BEST football game to date until WE10 comes out and I thank KONAMI for not dumbing the game down for the sake of "fun" seeking ex Fifa fans that have no clue about football.

Hellenes
 
ClassicD said:
Your posts were read RuneEdge, they were just not agreed apon. After reading the same stuff two or three times, who can blame anyone for not reading anymore?
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Well in my last post, I explained everything you had to say but it was at that moment you decided to act childish and walk away from the debate knowing you were wrong. :roll:
At the end of the day, theres no proven fact that the game cheats. All you've done is made up something without any proof that its the truth.
But all my explanations were based on actual facts that everyone knows.
(as you can see here: http://www.evo-web.co.uk/forums/showpost.php?p=648242&postcount=105)
Disagreeing with that (a fact) and agreeing with something thats made up is just foolish.
 
I left because it had stopped becoming an open discussion and had turned into you telling us that you were right and everyone else was wrong, and even when you tried to turn that around and lay the blame at my feet by saying I just wanted the last word, and that you'd give it to me, you still couldn't do it and only served to prove how close-minded you are.

There's no proven fact that the game doesn't cheat, how's that sound? I don't give a toss what Konami guide you bought, scanned and posted on here, or what it says. It's completely out of context because it's not talking about 'cheating' at all, not to mention the obvious fact that they are not going to print in an official guide that their game is at all cheap or undermines the player.

And if we're going to continue this discussion, I'll ask now for it not to be screeds and screeds of individual quotes of each other's posts. Just a simple reply will do, I get a sore head looking at the type of thing that happened before.
 
First of all, my explanations were not all from the strategy guide and some were based on common sense and knowledge (so you obviously werent reading my posts). The guide doesnt directly say the game doesnt cheat. I used the guide for bits of information to BACK UP my case (something you havent done).
ClassicD said:
And if we're going to continue this discussion, I'll ask now for it not to be screeds and screeds of individual quotes of each other's posts. Just a simple reply will do, I get a sore head looking at the type of thing that happened before.
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Well if you check my last post, I realised this isnt getting anywhere so I didnt use any quotes (further proof that you werent reading).It was just one simple post explaning everything I've said eariler but in a more organised post so that its easier to read and explained properly so that you couldnt side track in this discussion. But what did you do? You walked away. :roll:
 
First-off, the guide can be ruled out as a credible source on this matter because it's an official guide and is not going to contain any hint of the game scripting. It's not relevant here at all, so it's your opinion that you're left standing on, don't take the high-ground on this issue. That's like saying all the books left in Germany after Hitler burned the rest are a credible source, because there were no books to contradict them. :roll: Your references to guides and "backing up" your points using said guides can end now as far as I'm concerned, it's BULLSHIT.

Every time someone, and not just me, offered up an example of what we perceived to be blatantly scripted cheating, you make up some excuse for it not to be that. It's a bug, it's an incorrect button-press, it's form arrows, it's fatigue, etc, etc. This is despite people saying it happens when their players are fully-fit, have no fatigue and are on red arrows. It's perfectly clear, that you are not going to accept the game is scripted in this way, and perfectly clear that myself and others are not going to accept the reasons you gave, thus I suggested we agree to disagree and leave it at that. Twice. Which you couldn't do. I'll suggest that course of action again, let's agree to disagree?
 
I never said the guide tells me whether or not the game "cheats". Cuz as you said, its not like they're actually gonna say it if it was true. But the guide does however explain many times that there is nothing in the game that is predetermined (like how you think the game is). So with that said, this is our first big hint that the game doesnt have this "scripting" that you keep mentioning. Secondly, the guide also explains that there are many factors in the game that we dont know about that determine the outcome in different scenarios, most of which are over looked by people. For example, when you take a shot, no one takes any notice on the speed that they were running at, where exactly was the ball (in relation to the player's foot) when the contact was made during the shot, how much swerve was added to the ball, what was the distance between the player and the keeper, etc. These small things are never noticed cuz in most cases, you'd have to watch a replay to make a proper judgement or people would think the game isnt realistic enough to take all those things into account. But in a situation like that, if you missed, you'd probably call it "scripting".
Now in every situation you (or anyone else for that matter) gave, I gave you a vaild explanation for it using facts that we know (such as the stuff from the guide). I never said the guide directly tells me its not cheating, but it does give you info that can be used to explain why things happen in the game the way they do. So theres no way you can call it bullshit cuz its facts, unlike what you're saying.
Now what I explained above was only a part of my explanation. You decided to ignore the rest (nothing new here :roll: ).
So far, you've been asking the questions. You havent answered any yourself. If you want to prove that something exists, YOU are the one thats supposed to provide the answers, not me. Its easy asking questions especially to someone thats trying to prove that something doesnt exist. How about answering some for a change?
Now you say the game cheats by simply "picking" a side before the game. (this line pretty much sums up your whole arguement :roll: )
But why is it that people here only experience these in the ML?
And if it IS only in the ML, why do you have a problem with multiplayer? after all, this is a discussion about the gameplay in general, not one mode.
And if it does happen outside of the ML, why is it that you feel the game only favours the n00bs and not the experts?
You said the game "picks" a side before the start of the game (you did say this and it can be quoted). So how come theres never a situation where the better player get the "advantage" and completely destroys the beginner?
Now lets go back to the ML for a second. We all know that when the game "cheats" (I also think it cheats but not in the way that you do. Dont make me waste my time explaining this cuz I already have), no matter how many times you reload your save file, the same CPU team cheats every time. Now if the game (as you clearly said) picks a team before the match, how come it never picks you even though you reloaded your save again and again?
If the cheating does exist, there are only two possible explanations for this.
1. Its probably NOT choosing a team before the match meaning your theory is bullshit or...
2. the "chosen" team is saved onto the memory card.
Now the memory card files and the whole ML, the game data, etc has been dissected many times by the great experts on this forum and around the world. We've seen the whole option file ripped apart, we've seen hacks that control the age of players in the ML, the growth of players, etc BUT never has anyone seen anything to do with "cheating". If it did exist, someone would have found something. Since they havent, it can only mean that what you're suggesting is bogus.
So now you have to ask yourself "so when exactly does the game "pick" the team to favour?" It doesnt happen before the game, it cant happen during the game cuz thats just dumb. So really, the only logical thing would be the assume that it DOESNT exist seeing how there are also many other possible explanations (like the ones I mentioned many times) for the scenarios where the game apparently cheats. Cheating is just something you made up. Theres no evidence of it. Its as mad as saying that the game cheats by some how sending electrical shocks through the pad and controlling your button presses. Both of these claims are dumb cuz they both dont have any truth in it whatsoever.

Now you're obviously not gonna feel this way cuz you strongly believe in what you do (unless you're just being stubborn and arguing for the sake of it). But if I was in your shoes and vice versa or maybe you were just talking to someone who's never played a PES game before, and you went on to explain this "scripting" story, they'd probably think you're just too crap at the game and you're whining and looking for excuses for your defeats.

I know I'm being stuborn about this but its only because you first started this thread to discuss this matter, then you said that I'm wrong, and then you said its a matter of opinion and we should "agree to disagree". Well if that was the case, you shouldnt have made this thread in the first place and not only that, if it was just a matter of opinon, you should have respected what I had to say instead of just saying its all bullshit.
And the second thing thats bugging me is that you're choosing to believe in something thats made up and doesnt make sense, and you're disagreeing with something that has a logical and factual explanation behind it.

I just dont get it.
 
The guide says nothing in the game is pre-determined, is immediately dismissable because if it were not saying that then it's saying the game has scripting. Nothing the guide talks about is relevant here, IMO, it is an official guide, it's never going to offer anything other than a one-sided, biased argument on this particular topic.

Now, I do not recall saying the game picks a team before the game begins. I'll gladly back down over this if you can link me to the post I supposedly said that in, as well as try to answer the questions you've just asked.

As for no one finding anything on this scripting in the game data, tell me where they've found how the AI works, what style of play the AI uses, how a referee decides on whether to give a foul or play an advantage, etc? These things are hard-coded into the game, because some guys who know how to manipulate hex code in order to edit graphics can't find it doesn't mean it doesn't exist, that is an extremely silly thing to say.

I've also explained many times it's not about losing. I have played games where I've not won but really enjoyed the match, and other games I've won but it's been like pulling teeth. So before you post that I'm nothing more than a bad loser, you ought to take a look at yourself before you accuse others of being 'ignorant' and "not reading" your posts properly.

I said you were wrong because I'd read in an interview with Seabass that the AI compensates for it's limitedness on the ageing consoles by being cheap, and that was something they wanted to rectify for the next generation. You yourself have admitted the AI cheats, just not in the same way I believe it does. I still think you are wrong, but perhaps I was overly agressive in the way I stated that in the first place.
 
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