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Gameplay Mechanics of WE/PES

Discussion in 'Winning Eleven' started by ClassicD, 2 March 2006.

  1. ClassicD

    ClassicD Galáctico

    11 November 2001
    Glasgow
    Celtic
    The first time I played a Konami football game, it was the Playstation port of 'ISS Deluxe', 2D and viewed 'side-on'. I dunno if it was the same team that eventually made Winning Eleven that developed this, but my hunch is it was the other mob, KCEO, given the little touches like a dog running onto the pitch, etc, and the general arcadey gameplay.

    I didn't own an N64, I never played the KCEO-developed (I think) versions of the game. I also wasn't aware of imports, etc, so the first game that blew me away was ISS Pro (I think the WE equivalent was Winning Eleven 3). I think the next one was ISS Pro 98, after which I got into the game in a big way, found out the Japanese versions hit months earlier than the Western releases, and got Winning Eleven 4. It just blew me away. Over the years I waited on each new version with massive anticipation, as they always included subtle gameplay changes which when playing each new version for the first time would be tremendous fun to pick up on - "They've added that animation", or "Look at how the through pass is balanced better", etc (I'm sure fans of the series will know the feeling I'm talking about).

    My point is, over the years, they seem to have 'over-developed' the gameplay engine. Maybe I'm looking at the old games with rose-tinted glasses, with too much nostalgia, but they had concrete game-mechanics and you knew what would happen if you pressed a certain button. To me, the series feels like it's moved away from this and maybe too many new things have been introduced at once, but the main problem is far too much of the gameplay now feels scripted. It's nothing like FIFA, and it's still controllable enough to enjoy, but it's definitely lacking that 'complete control' aspect the earlier versions had IMO. If I did something wrong in an older version, I'd know I'd done it wrong and it'd be fine. In recent editions, it feels like sometimes the game just 'decides' for me, for example I'll press the exact same command in an identical situation, and it will pass, shoot, cross or dribble differently from the time before.

    The series is still marvellous and I love it, and like I said, maybe it's all in the head, or maybe I'm just not into videogames as much as I was back then. But my gut feeling is the series has gone a little astray from that basic, pure and unfiltered, controllable joy it used to provide.

    With WE already announced for next-gen, it's unknown how it will progress (graphics aside). Look at the final version of WE/PES for Playstation, and look how different it is today. Back then, players were called Roberto Larcos! I just hope they can re-capture some of what made WE so appealing to me in the first place.

    Thoughts?
     
  2. RuneEdge

    RuneEdge Silent Assassin

    1 October 2003
    Turn around, I'm right behind you...
    Manchester United
    One of the great things about PES5 is that no matter how good you are, you can never guarantee a win over anyone or even the CPU.
    The thing is that if you had complete control, you lose that realism and that "anything can happen" factor. With a more controlled game it would make it almost impossible for an inferior team to beat a world class team. You'll no longer see upsets or have those great magical performances that are just hard to explain, kinda like Liverpool's European Cup win.
    And this makes the game more lifelike cuz in every match, even if you're winning 3-0 with 30 mins to go, you'll still have that feeling in the back of your mind that this match isnt over yet...
     
  3. ClassicD

    ClassicD Galáctico

    11 November 2001
    Glasgow
    Celtic
    I don't know if you played the earlier versions or not, but your point brings up something else I feel has brought the series down a notch - the thing about "guaranteeing a win". The game used to be about who played the better football, who was better at the game would usually triumph. Now, because of the more scripted nature of WE, an inferior player will often run a more experienced, better player close, often winning. The series has been dumbed-down, it's moved away from the more technical and solid state it used to have and made more 'accessible' to newcomers. I remember a friend of mine would never play me at WE because I would horse him at it, every time. All of a sudden, he started giving me a tougher game. It wasn't because he'd improved, but because the newer versions of the game had penalised the better player and helped the 'noobs', in order to provide a closer outcome.

    The best matches I ever had were in the older games, with my cousin who started out maybe just a level or so below me but he improved, and eventually I had to concede he was slightly better at WE in the end! We had some amazing matches, comebacks, etc. One game in particular stands out, on WE4. We were doing France vs Brasil, and it finished 5-5 after 90 mins! It went to ET and Golden Goal was on, both sides had chances and was pure excitement as each pushed for the win. Eventually he pushed his luck too far, and I robbed him of possession mid-way inside my own half with Henry. I then took him on a 60 yard dribble up the pitch, and won the game 6-5. In those days, dribbling was done completely by change of direction and change of pace, there was no R2-sidestep or any of that nonsense. Dribbling past a few players and scoring was not an easy thing to do, so a 60-yard run to score the winning goal in an 11-goal match was quite something, we still remember it today even though it happened what must be about 6 years ago! Of course, you also didn't have to contend with player catch-up at that point, another example of the series being more player-controlled than scripted.

    So no, you don't need to introduce computer scripting in order to provide closer games. Leave it up to the players playing, to actually play.
     
    Last edited: 2 March 2006
  4. Milanista

    Milanista Mangiamoli! Staff

    19 December 2002
    London & Milan
    AC Milan
    I find we9/pes5 games more boring than I used to. Defence doesnt seem to exist in the more recent games. As long as you've got someone with pace and balance, they can play in defence. Theres too much reliance on speed in this game now adays.
     
  5. beachryan

    beachryan Golden Boot Winner

    4 July 2003
    Bermuda
    I'm totally with you, Konami have definitely introduced a kind levelling script that always brings two different levelled players a bit closer together. Funnily enough EA use hte same thing but admit it, in their Madden series you can choose to turn it off. Wish you could in WE.

    All I want from the new one is to be able to play any mode and still feel as though I've lost to the computer because they beat me fairly. I love playing exhibitions in WE9:jl, the gameplay is fantastic, but the second you enter a cup or a ML, there will be games where the computer will simply have 11 superstars on the pitch, while your boys will have forgotten their boots. And I love the idea of stats, and stat arrows so there are days when the otehr team is just better, but I've been palying long enough to know that stats don't necessarily determine much in those cases.

    Still, I am optimistic they'll fix these. Must have had some kick back from the various communities. For me WE8:Liveware was still the most fun to play in ML, hopefully they'll get back to some love for the single player mode :)
     
  6. MatTheCat

    MatTheCat Banned

    27 March 2005
    I am in total agreement with you on this one mate. Having the AI "tilt the pitch" a little has always been a feature of PES games but with PES5 they have simply went too far. I do still enjoy PES5 but it is quite simply thee most fecking aggravating game I have ever played (I actually destroyed my PS2 in a PES5 induced bout of rage).

    Now when you sit down to play your mate (of equal ability) or play someone online of equal ability, success or failure on PES5 depends greatly on whether the AI is tilting the pitch in your favour or not. NOTHING to do with your tactics or the quality or sharpness of your gameplay. If PES5 dont want you to score, then no matter what, you aint gonna score. Conversely, if the AI is supporting you, the goals will fly in all to easily leading you to delude yourself that you have "mastered the game"

    Winning or losing on PEs5 is much the same as winning or being totally fucking robbed by a fruit machine. When you win you are thinking it was cos of all the wise moves u made and the quick reactions u had on the stopper features etc. But when you lose you know 100% full well that you are being fucked over by a devious calculating machine that is simply not going to let you have your way......no matter what!


    Are you bonkers mate?

    What you are forgetting is that PES5 aint a real sport, it is adman computer game........For this "anyhting can happen" touch to be int he game it can only be down to computer AI interference!!!

    who the hell wants to sit and play a game against a friend and have their efforts controlled (positively or negatively) by a fecking computer? Especially when their might be a financial reward at stake or be part of a tourney.
     
    Last edited: 2 March 2006
  7. goonerjunglist

    goonerjunglist Conference

    10 September 2005
    vik lathia aylesbury gooner

    mate i know exacltly what your talking about. pro evo 1,2 and 3 were fantastic games. no 3 was the the best footie game made without doubt. i just dont know where to start on where the series has messed up since pr0 evo 4.it seems some other developers have made pes4 and 5. pes 1-3 are completly diff games if u ask me. much much better. you have total control on how the match is played like you say. since pes4 it feels like the game is on rails, its just not the same. i love pro evo 3 u just dnt understand how much. i simply dont know where to start on how the series has changed. i could talk about it all year. i so wish the made the next pro series just like the old pro games. i have brought every konami iss games since the snes and have never once thought a fifa game came close. i really wana get in touch with konami about how much they have upset me by changing the game. i want it to be like the old games. how the hell could i make konami see what im talking about??????????
     
  8. goonerjunglist

    goonerjunglist Conference

    10 September 2005
    vik lathia

    luca you are the 1st guy that i have met that understands the pro series like i do.considering how much success the iss/pro games had before there must be so many fans disapointed with the last two pes games. they have changed big time. still better than crapy arcady fifa but compared to pes 1 2 3 very poor. i need to get in touch with konami. any1 know how i could do this.
     
  9. Diehloid

    Diehloid Conference

    24 March 2004
    San Diego
    MattheCat and ClassicD,
    Completely agree. Some good comments here. I only wish Konami would listen.
     
  10. The Power

    The Power League 1

    18 July 2003
    100% agree! That is why i dont play PES5 any more. There are too many things that helped noobs in the defence. Example: When you play doublepass the com player cover my player who run forward...so the noob have nothing to do ...he can attack my player with the ball with r1+x buttons. That is only one example. In PEs5 you dont need skill at the defence.

    In ISS Pro (Evo),PES1,2,3,4 noobs have no chances when i play doublepass or make a fast game forward.

    I hope in PEs6 you need more skill.
     
  11. embraceuk1

    embraceuk1 Original Member Since 2001

    30 December 2001
    Indiana USA (Scottish)
    Nottingham Forest
    The game-play mechanics are genius in all the games.
    What other console game can you honestly play for 6 months and then something will happen that you have never seen before.
     
  12. Slobber

    Slobber boycotting PES

    3 August 2003
    Merseyside, England
    Liverpool FC
    The game is far too automatic, and you don't anywhere near enough control over what goes on. I've been saying this for years now.
     
  13. RuneEdge

    RuneEdge Silent Assassin

    1 October 2003
    Turn around, I'm right behind you...
    Manchester United
    Only losers can come up with something dumb like "computer AI interferences". Your "efforts" are not controlled in this game at any time. In fact, you're in more control in this game than any other previous game which is why things like "Super Cancel" are included in the game. You sound just like Jose Mourinho. :roll:
    And read the damn strategy guide, Seabass explains that nothing happens without an explanation. Its all calculated and then executed before your eyes. And you obvious dont have the brains to understand what I mean so you jumped to conclusions. And when I say "anything can happen", I dont mean the computer cheating to win. I'm talking about how players could make random errors or how you can miss a perfectly open goal. These things happen in real life but in the old games, this never used to happen. The game felt more artificial and unrealistic in the past. One perfect example is how accurate passing was in the old PES games. In those days, you could press and direction and the pass would be accurate. In the latest game, the direction you're facing before the pass has a great effect on how well the pass is executed. Lets say you were facing north but wanted to pass to someone who is in the south-west direction, in the old game, the pass would be a good one but in this game, the game engine takes into account that the player would have to turn around and passing without turning would make the ball go somewhere you dont want it to go. Of course a newbie like you would call that "computer AI interference" but the truth is that the AI only interfered in the previous game by aiding you to make your pass more accurate.
    Another thing is how scoring your chances is more like a routine in previous games. In the old games, theres always a "method" of scoring goals. Theres always the perfect power level of the shot bar which along with the right direction press would guarantee a goal every time. Games were more about who got through on goal more than the other cuz every chance (if you knew how to) would always result in a goal. And this goes all the way back to the 2D days. I remember playing ISS on the SNES and it had that "overhead flick" move like what Okocha did in a World Cup a few years ago (I'm sure people know what I'm talking about). Anyway, there was this well known trick where it was possible to do it over the keeper and then dribble the ball into the goal. And this worked EVERY single time. As a matter of fact, it was so cheap that Konami improve GK AI for ISS Deluxe so keepers can counter it.
    My point is that you say the current game is scripted when the truth is that the old games were more scripted and artificial cuz everything you pressed for would happen in the exact same way and there was nothing you can do about it. Just ask yourself one simple question. Would you rather watch a CPU vs CPU match in a old ISS/PES game where every match would look the same or would you want to watch a PES5 match where theres something different happening everytime?
     
  14. ClassicD

    ClassicD Galáctico

    11 November 2001
    Glasgow
    Celtic
    embrace, I'm not saying the mechanics are bad in the later editions, only that they are not as 'free' as before.

    Rune, I can see why you might prefer this method, and I agree with you on the passing/facing direction thing. However, and please don't take this the wrong way, you are incorrect when you say the AI does not interfere and that you have more control than in any other version. Seabass has himself stated in interviews, that a priority for the next-gen versions is to develop the AI so that it can provide a tough challenge without the cheapness it currently has to use - the head of the development team has gone on record saying the AI is cheap. I have now reached a point while playing the series on single-player mode that I simply accept whatever happens onscreen, because continuing to play and getting frustrated with blatant AI 'cheapness' results in a 'MattheCat' ;).

    Tonight, I was playing Milan in the ML in a top of the table clash (2 points seperating the teams). I go 1-0 up, they equalise, then I go 2-1 up with 10 minutes left. I defend valiantly, they can't get through. Then in the final minute, they hoof a long ball into my box from 35 yards out on the left-wing. I have 5 players in there, they have one, the ball is going nowhere near their striker. I press away from my goal and square, to header clear. Guess what happens? My player, bullets a header past my own goalkeeper, in the complete opposite direction to that I had pressed - this is such a great header I'm inclined to say I'd struggle to match it if it were my striker on the end of a cross at the opponent's end. Athough this example is an extreme case, this isn't a one-off occurance, the AI has done this to me before and I am positive, that others will confirm it happens. For me, the AI 'cheapness' isn't up for debate because of what I've just described, and the fact the top man in the development team has admitted it's hard-coded into the AI.

    Having the same command be executed each time the same button combination is pressed, does not mean games are boring. Different situations always arise, but it's left to you to control them. This isn't scripting, scripting is when the AI pre-determines, no matter what you press, what is going to happen next. What is the point of playing if the outcome is already decided? As I already said, the old versions provided the best games I've ever had playing the series, they never got boring, something I can't say I've found is the case with more recent releases.
     
  15. MatTheCat

    MatTheCat Banned

    27 March 2005
    Yeah, but lets not draw the line at single player ML mode (even though it is when CPU knows something is at stake that it is most likely to start cheating). The scripted AI is most annoying when it interferes wit the 2 player game. Who here hasn't played one game against their mate where the goals just flew in wihtout you even barely having to try resulting in an easy 3-0 victory and much gloating only for the follow up game two minutes later to be an exact reverse where you are trying 110% but no matter what you do.....your efforts are frustrated whilst your mates forwards just break through your defence effortlessly.......(but just 2 minutes ago he couldn't even buy a chance on goal)

    The facts are that Konami HAVE coded a "tilted pitch" equation into the game which randomly ensures a wide variety of game types and also throws in that "anything can happen" factor to attempt to spice the thing up.

    Also I would add that I am actually pretty damn good at PES and most of my online matches are aroun 60/40 possesion in my favour with 3 times more efforts on goal than my opponents.........and this is why I know all about the "catch up mode" embedded in the games AI. There are games I play where I totally dominate and do everything but put the ball in back of net. It is in such games where I just know that as soon as my opponent breaks forward my defense is going to open up and he is 75/25 likey to score. Happened so many times that it aint even worth counting. It is somethign that an experienced player just knows is on the cards.....Like the fact that if you get a penalty shoot-out in a semi-final against the CPU you just know that the CPU aint going to let you win!

    Whilst I can acknowledge that the overall gameplay was greatly improved with PES4 and even more so with PES5, in each of these release there have been fatal flaws. With PES4 it has been the introduction of the "lame goals phenomena" into the series which totally destroyed the vast gameplay potential that PES4 had, and with PES5, it is a combination of the "lame goals" (greatly tightened up but they remain a critical flaw in the game) and then the scripted gameplay and the "tilted pitch AI" which results in either the feeling that you simply cannot buy a goal for love nor money, or that they just fly in all to easy.

    Therefore PES3 still wears the crown as far as I am concerned. More limited gameplay potential, but no lame goals and no scripted games.
     
  16. Milanista

    Milanista Mangiamoli! Staff

    19 December 2002
    London & Milan
    AC Milan
    If PES3 is WE7/WE7I.... I completely agree.
     
  17. jumbo

    jumbo Premiership

    30 May 2003
    WE Heaven
    I feel the same way man. I have my n64 right here and play ISS 98 whenever I can.

    I do not feel the game is more scripted though. In fact, I don't think this has anything to do with scripting and AI and so forth.

    It is the feeling, when you first start playin the series, you're stunned. I myself got the first taste of WE by playin ISS Pro Evo on PSX.

    Now, after so many years, I feel like I'm playing the same game. The truth is WE doesn't change much. Obviously from PS1 -> PS2 it did but since then it's the same game.

    Come PS3, the first version or the second will be something fresh again and then the next 3 the same with more animations and teams.
     
  18. the_thing

    the_thing ps3!

    4 August 2004
    Toronto
    Juve, MU
    is ISS 98 the one with the box-penalty system? if it is, i remember playing that game with my friends. i cant say its the most realistic but i dont think the computer interferes as much. i remember you were able to kick the ball into your own net when the gk had it in his hands (i remember this as during 2 vs 2 games my teammate would always do this...).
     
  19. ClassicD

    ClassicD Galáctico

    11 November 2001
    Glasgow
    Celtic
    Jumbo, I half-wondered if it was just my mind playing tricks on me (I've not played the PS1 versions in a long, long time), and maybe to some degree it is. Not completely though, there's a real difference when your player does something you've not told him to do, when he does it of his own accord.

    But I think you're also right, that over time the series just stagnates and needs freshening up.

    ISS on the N64 wasn't developed by the WE team I don't think, and it certainly isn't part of the WE series IMO so it's not really fair to compare that version. I never played it, but I wish I had.
     
  20. ronaldo10

    ronaldo10 League 1

    4 April 2005
    couldn't agree more with mathecat & clasicd, older versions they where better control & very adictiv, ofcours non of them where prefect but they where more fun to play, especialy PES3 ITS THE BEST OF THE SERIES by far, i couldn't stop playing that game, i was playing allmust every day, with friends or against cpu eather ways was great game. maybe didn't had all the triks they got now, but the gameplay was smoother with more controll on the ball and off the ball, & passing wasn't easy in pes3, but when u where scooring, that was no better feeling then that, overall the gameplay had great balance betwen attack & deffenc, unlike pes4,5 the al its so bad i don't even know where to began with, like methacet sed earlyer more u play more u experienc the game u will understand how bad cpu cheats, belive me when i say this, cos i was the one hu didn't belive it at first that cpu cheats, very scripted gameplay, and i am not the onley one hu think like that, as all my friends hu played prewius pes games, think the same way as me, wa all can feel that when my frends come around, when we play everyone its quiet in the hause when we scoore we all quiet, ther is not the same ecitmant we had back in the days especialy with pes3, where is that we where shauting screeming, jumping, and u don't want to know the rest;)
    i they focos on gameplay more this version+fixin al
    can't wait to see pes6 on xbox360&ps3
     
  21. embraceuk1

    embraceuk1 Original Member Since 2001

    30 December 2001
    Indiana USA (Scottish)
    Nottingham Forest
    If theres one thing i cant stand its the ppl who claim the game cheats.

    I am not accusing anyone in this thread of it but if your not good enough its your fault not the game and isnt it a good thing you dont win every game as they have always been easy even on 5 and now 6 star options.
     
  22. MatTheCat

    MatTheCat Banned

    27 March 2005
    Look at it like this.

    You are going to play your mate at table football down the local leisure centre. You put your 50ps in and start to play. However you notice that the table tends to tilt slightly in each direction for certain periods of the game. Of course when the table is tilted in your favour, you get more goals and find things easier. However when it is tilted against your favour the game becomes very hard. What you find is that whenever the table tilts in your favour, you are 70/30 more likely to get most goals and vice versa. However, sometimes the table is tilted so steep in your favour that your mate cannot do anything to prevent a sound thrashing and of course the same can sometimes happen but the wrong way around!

    A bit cheesed of with this you go to complain to the leisure centre manager about this faulty footie table but he just replys to you....."ah, that is the great thing about this particular table, ANYTHING CAN HAPPEN, a really good player can lose to an arthritic old granny sometimes.....JUST LIKE THE REAL THING!"

    Now if you had the choice, you would rather play on a similar table but WITHOUT all the tilting interfering with the game. Unfortunately PES5 gamers do not have any such choice. The game is a contest between two peoples ability, not a contest of in whose favour the table is tilting.

    If you cannot see that PES5 is very similar in nature to this wonky football table then you are either blinded by your enthuisiasm for the game, you aint played the game enough, or you simply just dont play well enough to notice when you are getting shafted or indeed when goals just happen for you all to easily.
     
    Last edited: 3 March 2006
  23. BK_83

    BK_83 World Class

    7 June 2003
    singapore
    i would like to point out that, sometimes when u are in a proper position to shoot, the player will still shoot straight at the centre of the goal even if u were holding up or down(left or right of goal)

    the game sometimes decides where the ball should go for u...
     
  24. ClassicD

    ClassicD Galáctico

    11 November 2001
    Glasgow
    Celtic
    With respect, I don't think anyone has made reference to the game being too hard at any point in this thread, that's not the issue here. I've done the Master League mode to completion many times, and many times as early on in the ML as it was possible to do so (i.e. you can't win the WEFA until your second season, etc). It does make it harder, but that's not the issue. I certainly don't find it's too difficult that I stop playing.

    Everyone's definition of 'cheating' is different, for example there are those that think any AI 'interference' is cheating, and those that think this element makes for a more exciting game, like RuneEdge. My view is that sometimes the AI works in your favour instead of against you, just like MTC mentioned, so it's not about cheating, it's about a lack of control. I don't want the AI to help out my opponent, but I also don't want any help from the AI - I want to play the game.
     
  25. TikTikTikTikTik

    TikTikTikTikTik *****

    7 August 2004
    Liverpool
    Have to admit ive noticed the "AI cheating" morein recent editions. When this was stated for the older ones i just ignored it. However the recent ones they have had more interference. Whether its a good or bad thing is debatable, after all real football one moment everything works and the next the passes arent even working (luis garcia for liverpool is a good example of this).Personally i have found that you just have to concentrate more when the game isnt in your favor and keep going till the end. Scoring an 90+ min equaliser is so much better in those games. However you do feel you have beaten the "computer" then the actual team you are playing.
     
  26. Slobber

    Slobber boycotting PES

    3 August 2003
    Merseyside, England
    Liverpool FC
    Problem is though, with the current system Konami keep building on, you're never gonna have full control. Every pass, shot, header, tackle is mainly controlled by the cpu, with the player only having a vague say in which direction is goes with the cpu deciding whether ot not you will be successful.

    People say it takes skill to score in the game, and then go on about how the penalties suck. It's pretty funny when the fundamentals for both penalties and normal shots are both the same. You know, press a direction and shoot, and *hope* the game lets you score this time.

    Someone on another forum once said, WE isn't about skill, it's about tactical play. Well I want a game about skill and tactics.
     
  27. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Banned

    12 February 2005
    London
    Have to agree with you there mate.

    PES3 is my favourite series of the game. Love it :)
     
  28. goonerjunglist

    goonerjunglist Conference

    10 September 2005
    please please please has any body got some kind of mail address direct to the konami team who deals with iss/pro series. theres so much i need to get of my chest, i want to start a potition to bring back the old pes 3 physics back. the game whould be more successful then the current games purely because all my mate who love pro evo games agree the the new games are so diff and nowhere near as good. im so positive a diff team has been given pro evo 4 and 5 because back in the day iss games and pro evo games where developed by to diff konami teams i think one was from korea and the other from japan. seriously the only similarities between pes 123 and 4n5 is that the grounds are the same,other than that the games are nothing like one another and that is very bad man. i still play pes 3 and its just so amazing, its not about the ai or none of that shit. its about who plays better. u can pass shoot dribble much more accuratly. i simply havent got time to explain how good pes 1,2n 3 games are compared to 4n5 im sure all u true fans out there understand. im just shocked nobody has said or done anything to get konami to sort this shit out. if the series continues the same i no longer will be a fan.u simply dont have control over the ball like u do on prievious pes game. and please nobody insult my pes knowledge because i have been a fanatic since day 1 and i mean day f**king 1.
     
  29. RuneEdge

    RuneEdge Silent Assassin

    1 October 2003
    Turn around, I'm right behind you...
    Manchester United
    This seems to be a very in depth debate so I had to type this up in Notepad and go through it a few times to make sure it made sense. :lol:

    I think you're getting confused here. When the AI does its so called "cheating", its doesnt affect how YOU play, it affects how THEY play. All you passes and shots and crosses will all respond like how they would in any normal game. Its only the CPU's AI that will magically get "smarter" and will do whatever it can to score a goal. And this BTW has been in there since the old games in both ISS/PES AND FIFA games. Its just that its more blatant in the new games cuz since we have more control, its easier to notice when things dont go the way they should (which backs up my point that you have more control now). Someone else here once brought this up (cant remember who) that the game's AI was made to draw games, lose them. Have you ever noticed that the game never seems to "cheat" when you're losing, or even in a game thats tied? This isnt really cheating, its just a way of making the game more difficult in an artificial way. All games do it, not just football games but other sports games and even fighting games. I once read an advance Street Fighter guide where it explains how the CPU pulls off special attacks in the game and its very similar to this. We all know (well most gamers do) how to do Ryu's Fireball in Street Fighter games. You have to press D, DF, F in a circular motion and then press a punch button. Of course the CPU doesnt have to do that, instead it just triggers moves to happen whenever it wants to. Why does it do that? Its because it gives you an artificial disadvantage without you noticing why its so hard. But the funny thing was that if you lowered the difficulty of the game, the CPU would actually have to input the same commands on the pad that you would have to. So when you saw the CPU do a fireball, you could actually see him crouch down because its also pressing D, DF, F then punch like how humans have to do it.
    My point is that its not cheating cuz all games have it. Its just a way of making the game more difficult for the player. If Konami completely removed the "cheating" and then gave you a 7* difficulty which included the "cheating", I'm pretty sure everyone here would be playing on 7* cuz its more of a challenge.
    My second point on this issue is that this "cheating" only applies to how the CPU plays, not how YOU play. If two humans were playing the game would be more enjoyable cuz then theres no one for the game to favour like how you lot think it does. Now I know you ClassicD say that even n00bz find the game easy and are able to compete with good players but if the game was helping out the n00b, how can the game tell which player is the n00b and which is the good player? Surely if the game was picking sides, there would be times when the better player got "help" from the CPU to beat the n00b.


    I still think you're just picking on something that doesnt exist in the game. "pre-determines, no matter what you press" is something I've never experienced in my life when it comes to PES. Heres a perfect test for you. Go to training mode, play against 11 other players, and whenever you feel the game is "cheating" you, press select and rewind it and try again. If you keep trying and finally pull off the pass or shot that you wanted, it'll prove that I'm right. You'll notice that it was probably you not pressing the right thing that didnt allow you to pull off what you wanted. And I think this is something that I've almost mastered over the years in PES. So many times in the past I would be screaming things like "WTF, I didnt want to pass to that guy, I MEANT THIS GUY OVER HERE" or "CANT YOU F*CKIN SHOOT INTO THIS CORNER, NOT INTO THE KEEPERS FACE YOU MUPPET!" but those days are over for me because I know why these things happen and then I learn to do something about it. Its only considered cheating if theres no way of stopping it but the truth is that there is a way.
    I understand your frustration with the AI but there are also ways of stopping them from scoring their "unstoppable" charge towards goal. I dont think I've let in any "unfair" goals against the CPU for (atleast what feels like) a year I think. Its all about understanding the game engine and learning the CPUs patterns.
    Heres a good example. In one of the early PSX versions, there were moments when I thought the game would cheat and make perfect tackles to my runs into the box. Now the PSX is only a computer, so it cant read your mind but only your button presses. So I'm thinking that maybe the game is probably reading my button presses, seeing which direction I want to go and then its probably tackling me accordingly. So what I started doing was whenever I'm close to a defender, I would randomly bash different directions randomly, and you could notice the defender was responding different and would be confused at times. Instead of standing off and making the perfect tackle, it would actually run at you which you can go around with a bit of skill and trickery.
    Thats just one example, I've done this in many games and most of the time, I've found a way to handle a situation where I think the CPU is trying to have an advantage over me.
    Now its been the same with PES5, when I first thought the game was cheating, I thought it cant be impossible to stop it. So I tried and I tried and eventually I learnt all the CPUs patterns and now I feel as though the game isnt cheating cuz I never let it cheat. Most it is because of Super Cancel.If you think the game is stopping you from moving into certain positions, Super Cancel your way into position. If the game is making your player's first touch really bad, Super Cancel and recieve the pass in your own way. ANd this also applies for defending. The game thinks the only way to defend is by applying pressure but if you Super Cancel into the path of the attacker, you'll knock the ball off him. Its pretty simple if you understand. Super Cancel is a very important tool and with it, this game gives you must more freedom and control than any other past game. IMO, its foolish to say you have less control cuz Konami are clearly trying you GIVE you control with all these new features.

    Heres a little video example that I made on how you can have fun with the AI thanx to Super Cancelling.
    http://rapidshare.de/files/14596212/pes5.wmv.html

    When you Super Cancel, the game doesnt understand it. Its almost as if you're cheating against the CPU. If you cant beat them, even the score. Now when you have two guys playing against each other who both have great knowledge of the game, PES5 can be as fun as any game available.
     
    Last edited: 3 March 2006
  30. bummy_jab

    bummy_jab League 2

    9 August 2004
    I prefer WE9 than WE6 7 or 8. I guess thats just me though. I will admit though that it is WAY Too easy to defend. BUT maybe thats cause ive been playin since WE6???
     

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