Gameplay Mechanics of WE/PES

[winston]

Do I need to explain myself again?
But what you're disagreeing with is what I said above about the game making calculations to determine what YOUR players do. This is where the game doesnt cheat as I explained above. If something didnt go your way, instead of whining, try thinking about why it really happened and you might notice little things that you could have done to avoid the situation.

Explain yourself? You're inventing things and stating them as fact because you have an immature psychological need to defend anything to do with PES. You've lost objectivety.

I've seen countless situtations where I've been running towards a loose ball and my player has either slowed down, or changed direction, or both, in order that a cpu player reaches the ball first. It's scripted gameplay, as poor as anything I've seen in any game.

I appreciate some people are a bit stupid but Konami seem to rely on people being too stupid to realise what has actually just happened. Unfortunately for them, it's not only stupid, obsequious people that play their games. Some people can assess their gameplay with an open mind...at times it's great, at times woeful.

 

[ClassicD]

Again, this is against the CPU. Whats the problem when two humans play?

"Again"? This is the first time you've mentioned you're talking specifically about player vs player scenarios. All you've done is bang on about how the AI doesn't control your players, and how it's the person playing at fault. It's been put to you, perfect examples, and now you're just moving onto human vs human play?

Complete cop-out.

 

[MatTheCat]

Wow.....this is still going.....

Ok...RuneEdge.....

Beneath all the gfx, animations and sound fx, PES5 is no more than a complex series of calculations based on probabilities depending upon which values are inputed into the equation. i.e. As mentioned earlier in this thread, when your player is through on goal with only the keeper to beat, you choose your direction and release the shoot button, there are numerous 'legitimate' factors and probability calculations which will determine whether a goal is scored or not.

Now from a programmers point of view.....how hard do you think it would be to introduce a 'hidden' factor into the probability calculations that results in the calcualtions being more likely to favour one player for a certain duration (or indeed for the full extent of the match) and more likely to disfavour the other?

This 'slanted pitch' effect has always been part of the PES game (yes, it was in PES3 also) and it IS NOT JUST CONFINED TO CPU vs 1 PLAYER cheating. However what so many people are saying is that in PES5, Konami have pushed it too far and the result is a game that you cant really beleive in. When I win, it is always in the back of my mind that perhaps the AI greased the whels for me at the right moment, likewise when things aint going your way, is often all to apparent that the AI is blatantly frustrating your efforts hence rendering you powerless.............not much fun!

In effect what you have is thee most scripted PES game to date.

 

[RuneEdge]

"Again"? This is the first time you've mentioned you're talking specifically about player vs player scenarios.
All you've done is bang on about how the AI doesn't control your players, and how it's the person playing at fault. It's been put to you, perfect examples, and now you're just moving onto human vs human play?

Complete cop-out.

I'm not talking about player vs player scenarios. I'm talking about a scenario where you have the hold of the ball and have full control over what you can do with it regardless of whether its against a human or a CPU.. Now when you said the CPU cheats, I never denied that cuz I explained that its something that most games have anyway. Which is why I asked why is there a problem when you have a human vs another human.
The same calculations are still applied and that weird example you gave where your player cant recieve the ball in time shouldnt happen since its a match between two humans.
By only focusing on the CPU's flaws, you're moving away from the main question which is the gameplay mechanics (as the thread title suggests). As many excuses you come up with, you still ignore the scenario where two humans are playing cuz then theres no one for the game to favour meaning the game is perfectly playable.

Now from a programmers point of view.....how hard do you think it would be to introduce a 'hidden' factor into the probability calculations that results in the calcualtions being more likely to favour one player for a certain duration (or indeed for the full extent of the match) and more likely to disfavour the other?

The fact that you've ASSUMED that theres a "hidden" factor makes this point worthless. Cuz you can just as easily ASSUME that there isnt a "hidden" factor in this game. At the end of the day, we can only believe what the makers of the game tell us, and they've told everyone about the calculations that I explained above.
I've only told you guys what Seabass has told everyone, whereas you guys have just assumed that these "interferences" exist. How do we know what really happened when you experienced those moments that you had. Maybe it was just a bug in the game (and there are many in the game that people on this site have complained about in the past), or maybe it was the games AI not knowing how to handle the situation like in the example ClassicD gave, maybe the game didnt understand that you wanted to run after the ball so it gave you a more manual control over the player (which is normally slower at running compared to when the player has a locked on target such as a loose ball or a attacking defender).

 

[ClassicD]

Someone, get me a gun, now. :roll:

I'm done 'debating' this with RuneEdge, completely. I knew when I said agree to disagree it was sensible. No matter how many people give examples of the AI buggering up your players, he just makes up excuses. To turn around and say that I'm moving away from the main thread focus is staggering, given I tried to put an end to this side issue earlier and he responded by telling me that I was saying "I dont give a shit what you think", and that agreeing to disagree made the thread pointless.

I give up, I really do.

 

[RuneEdge]

Someone, get me a gun, now. :roll:

I'm done 'debating' this with RuneEdge, completely. I knew when I said agree to disagree it was sensible. No matter how many people give examples of the AI buggering up your players, he just makes up excuses. To turn around and say that I'm moving away from the main thread focus is staggering, given I tried to put an end to this side issue earlier and he responded by telling me that I was saying "I dont give a shit what you think", and that agreeing to disagree made the thread pointless.

I give up, I really do.

I just made clear that I'm only telling you what Seabass explains in his guide, disagreeing with me technically means you disagree with the person who made the game.
So far you've only assumed why the game "interferes". And when I gave you 2 other possible explanations for you example of "interference", you ignored that and said you're done with the debating.
Such a cheap way to escape this debate just when I make a perfectly good point. :roll:

 

[RuneEdge]

As you can see, what I tell you isnt BS cuz its coming straight from Seabass' mouth. You on the other hand are trying to explain something that you dont know about.
And I just gave you two possible reasons for your interference, one was maybe because of a bug and secondly, maybe the game didnt understand what you were trying to do in the situation (read my previous post again to understand cuz you obviously ignored it the first time).
And besides, other than this incident with the player not reaching the ball in time, what other problems have you experienced?

 

[MatTheCat]

Ok RuneEdge, If Seabass says its so then I guess that concludes things. Their is no AI interference favouring one team over another in PES5 and that's official!

So what is your explanation for the hoardes of examples of folk complaining on PES forums about the "scripted" gameplay?

Look at any of the main pes forums and you will find dozens of threads and hundreds of references to CPU interference. I have been playing PES since day one and have been a forum regular since PES3. Why is it only now that this imaginary CPU interference is becoming a huge issue for many?

 

[RuneEdge]

Like I explained above, there could be many reasons for why these things happen.
For example, when ClassicD said that he had moments where the CPU wouldnt allow him to reach a loose ball before the CPU gets there, I suggested the following:

The fact that you've ASSUMED that theres a "hidden" factor makes this point worthless. Cuz you can just as easily ASSUME that there isnt a "hidden" factor in this game. At the end of the day, we can only believe what the makers of the game tell us, and they've told everyone about the calculations that I explained above.
I've only told you guys what Seabass has told everyone, whereas you guys have just assumed that these "interferences" exist. How do we know what really happened when you experienced those moments that you had. Maybe it was just a bug in the game (and there are many in the game that people on this site have complained about in the past), or maybe it was the games AI not knowing how to handle the situation like in the example ClassicD gave, maybe the game didnt understand that you wanted to run after the ball so it gave you a more manual control over the player (which is normally slower at running compared to when the player has a locked on target such as a loose ball or a attacking defender).

Of course I could be wrong. But my assuption is as good as yours cuz we both dont know the truth unless we reverse engineer the whole game and see the how the game is coded ourselves. But to assume its one thing when there are many other possible reasons is wrong.

 

[RuneEdge]

And I'd just like to conclude my point by saying that in the previous games, all those factor that seabass mentioned didnt affect the game but now that it does, you're in more control of your fate. You already know that the game takes these things into concideration so its up to you to make things happen by increasing your odds of socring.
In the previous games, shooting was very basic. If you were in certain positions, and built the shot bar to that sweet spot, you could almost guarantee a goal. Now you might say thats more control but lets look at this from the GK's point of view. If you were the defending team and the opposing player was one on one with the keeper, do you have any control if the opponent used on of his techniques of "guaranteeing" a goal? Of course not. But in PES5, I know that the positioning of the keeper makes a difference so I'd sometimes call the keeper out just for a fraction of a second and in many times, it has saved me from defeat.
This is just one example of why I think you have more control now than ever before. Those "interferences" that you talk might happen once in a while but I doubt it would be happening EVERY game you play. And like I said above, those interferences might not even be what you think they are.

 

[mazanga]

In the previous games, shooting was very basic. If you were in certain positions, and built the shot bar to that sweet spot, you could almost guarantee a goal.

Lol

I agree with you there mate and I absolutely hated that about previous versions!!!!

I think the outcome of (individual) goal efforts and (individual) challenges should be a result of complex calculations AND a certain degree of luck and randomness.

But I don't think the AI should be in favour of a certain side in general. I feel (please don't kill me RuneEdge ;-) ) that sometimes the AI seems to decide wether I, my mate or the cpu should win. All of a sudden i will miss an inexplicable amount of shots on goal, i will hardly win any challenges, loose balls never go my way and the ref hates me. This does not feel like luck and it doesn't feel random.

I also feel that when i pass or shoot, there should be a margin of error. If i pass to teammate A but my button pressing results in a perfect pass right into the feet of teammate B then something is not right. I accept that a percentage of my passes (and shots) will be mishits. But then such a pass should not reach any of my teammates. It shouldn't have enough or too much power, it should be slightly off, or just bounce off my foot in a funny way.

Same thing with shots on goal. In real football, a lot of shots on goal do not take the intended direction either so this is a good thing. In pes however this 'random factor' is not programmed how it should be because it doesn't feel random at all. It feels scripted. Take this example: if I shoot on goal and there is a defender standing in 'my line of fire', I generally experience that the ball will not hit him. The computer seems to make sure that the shot goes around the defender. So if the defender is standing in the right place, most of the time, the shot will go wide. I did not decide to shoot past the defender, the AI did. This is not random, it is scripted.

I would have to agree with the guy who came up with the example of playing tablefootball and the table being tilted one way for a period of time and then all of a sudden tilted the other way.

This is not to say that RuneEdge (as ClassicD) does not have valid points. I think I indeed could have more controll over the game if I practiced more and that in some situations where i blame the AI for cheating, factors like fatique, arrows, bodybalance, general stats and my own failure could play a bigger role than i would dare to admit at that point.

Pes5 is a lot more random than previous version and that is why i love this game. It is at the same time however a lot more scripted and that's why i am sometimes infuriated when i play this game. But most of the time, the better player wins and i have learned to live with 'AI interference' during 2 player games. I have to say that i hardly ever play the computer, and if i do, i only play exhibition matches). I have had more fun with pes5 (and especially WE9JL) than with any other previous version and to me the horrible net code (lag during online play) is far more disturbing than the 'AI cheating'.

 

[RuneEdge]

(please don't kill me RuneEdge ;-) )

I'll try my best not to.

But I don't think the AI should be in favour of a certain side in general. I feel (please don't kill me RuneEdge ;-) ) that sometimes the AI seems to decide wether I, my mate or the cpu should win. All of a sudden i will miss an inexplicable amount of shots on goal, i will hardly win any challenges, loose balls never go my way and the ref hates me. This does not feel like luck and it doesn't feel random.

But as that little article I posted above explained, theres no luck in this. You can think what you want. But at the end of the day, you can only believe the person who made the game regardless of whether he chooses to tell you the truth or not cuz out of all of us, he's the only one who isnt gonna give an opinion.

I also feel that when i pass or shoot, there should be a margin of error. If i pass to teammate A but my button pressing results in a perfect pass right into the feet of teammate B then something is not right. I accept that a percentage of my passes (and shots) will be mishits. But then such a pass should not reach any of my teammates. It shouldn't have enough or too much power, it should be slightly off, or just bounce off my foot in a funny way.

This is something that I explained earlier. This is only a computer, it cant read your mind or guess who you wanted to pass to. If you have two players closer to each other the game cant tell who to want to pass to. Which is why I said you have to take matters into your own hands. Holding the pass button usually allows you to make a more accurate pass in these situations. Even holding it for a split second longer makes all the difference. And you can always try holding on to the ball and looking for other options or waiting for your team mate to be in a more isolated position. Just cuz things dont go your way, that doesnt mean you dont have control. But the fact that there are so many ways to handle these situations means you have more control now.
You call it "interferences", I call it "PS2 not being able to read your mind".
And besides, asking for the ball to bounce off the player is asking for too much. The PS2 cant handle that much realism. Maybe this is the problem. PES is so much more realistic compared to other games that people complain when they find something not included but is seen in real life football.:lol:

Same thing with shots on goal. In real football, a lot of shots on goal do not take the intended direction either so this is a good thing. In pes however this 'random factor' is not programmed how it should be because it doesn't feel random at all. It feels scripted. Take this example: if I shoot on goal and there is a defender standing in 'my line of fire', I generally experience that the ball will not hit him. The computer seems to make sure that the shot goes around the defender. So if the defender is standing in the right place, most of the time, the shot will go wide. I did not decide to shoot past the defender, the AI did. This is not random, it is scripted.

I dont think this is true cuz I've experiences many instances where defenders who stood on the line have stopped me from scoring. As a matter of fact, I've used this same technique myself. I was once outnumbers during defending. They have 2 attackers with the ball, I was just one defender and the keeper. So what did I do? I super cancelled to move my defender on the line and then held triangle to let my keeper pressure the attacker. The attacker then passes to his teammate who leaves the keeper for dead but his shot hit the defender who was on the line.

 

[ClassicD]

RuneEdge, have you ever played Master League on a high-setting, for a number of seasons (in PES5/WE9)?

 

[RuneEdge]

Yes and I've noticed times when the CPU will just not allow you to win (only happened in ML games). I kept reloading my save file to beat this team cuz I thought it was cheating. It took like 15 tries before before I finally pulled a draw. But doesnt mean its impossible. And I'm not denying this cuz its there for adding difficulty to the game.
But if two humans play, why is there a problem?

 

[ClassicD]

Please, for a moment, just ignore whether the opponent is AI or human as it's not important to the point I'm going to make. You agree that there are certain games where the CPU will ramp up the difficulty, I'm glad we agree on something. Now, how exactly does it do this?

 

[RuneEdge]

From my personal experiences, they just seem to score impossible goals. Like inch perfect shots from outside the area that are unstoppable or they score super headers from corners. Sometimes they've strung together some amazing passes and ripped my team apart.
And all of this happens at very convenient moments in the game.

 

[ClassicD]

What makes these games harder in my experience is that you for some inexplicable reason play like shite, not that they play any better. It's that in these games, the occassional strange bounce of the ball, becomes a frequent strange bounce of the ball, or implementation of 'baby-steps' that I explained earlier. The same goes for the type of example I gave of the AI scoring into my own net, these happen much more in the 'tough' ML games than in the regular ones.

There are also games where absolutely everything goes right for you, you get so many flukey, fortunate breaks of the ball in the one game, and the next match it's completely reversed in favour of the AI.

If the game was truly using 100% fair and accurate ball-physics, this wouldn't be the case. You can refer to Seabass' claim all you want, but the same man has admitted the AI is cheap. That's not 'more accurate', 'more efficient' or even 'better'. "Cheap". That means it does things it shouldn't do, things which are unfair. The term AI is not limited to opposition players, it also includes your own players who are not selected, it includes coding responsible for ball-physics, it includes refereeing decisions, pretty much everything in the gameplay.

There are games I've played in the ML where I've went to a team at the foot of the table and struggled badly, then went out and skelped Bayern Munich 8-2 in the first-leg of a WEFA Cup Quarter-Final. This would be ok were it a freak occurance, but it's not. It's got too much of a pattern not to be.

 

[winston]

Yes and I've noticed times when the CPU will just not allow you to win (only happened in ML games). I kept reloading my save file to beat this team cuz I thought it was cheating. It took like 15 tries before before I finally pulled a draw. But doesnt mean its impossible. And I'm not denying this cuz its there for adding difficulty to the game.
But if two humans play, why is there a problem?

Glad you finally admit that some games arelike that. I've had the exact same experience, and I'm sure everyone else has too, where you can re-play a match again and again and eventually scrape a win but the question is why was it so hard in that match? We're not claiming that you have zero control, but there are certainly matches where the balance is tilted in favour of the opposition, not just in that they get all nearly all the breaks (which obviously means you get nearly none), but in that your players don not pass as well, have reduced response, reduced chances of shooting a goal. It's done to create the impression of realism, so that if you;re really good at the game, you can't just go out and play the same every match and so win 4-0 every match. It's done to make some matches much harder (but they're still winnable, even if you have to try 15 times), just like some matches are much harder in real life.

But whilst it may seem to reflect real life, it effectively reduces the amount of control you have, making the game more annoying than enjoyable. This is what we are discussing. Is this level of "scripting" the game to make it much harder for you, by reducing your level of control and reducing your luck, the way we want to see the gameplay develop? For some of us, no.

Why is it a problem whn human players human, because exactly the same tilting the balance in favour of one team occurs in human v human matches. I've played matches against guys whom I know to be great players, and expecte to get humiliated, but it became clear early on that I was getting the gameplay tilted in my favour and I've won games 4-0. The opponents have said I played great but to be honest, I felt rather sheepish because I played a very ordinary game, but everything went my way. I could see the gameplay engine was making my every pass and shot come off but making his every pass and shot go astray. He wasn;t a bad player, the game-engine just didn't allow him to play.

Likewise, I've had the opposite experience where I've played against novices yet have been whipped by them. They just clicked the pass button a few times, then click shoot and hey, a goal appears out of nothing. I spend the rest of the entire match wrestling with super-cancel, etc just to make simple 5 yard passes reach their man, whilst they effortlessly click their way around with precision passing. Nothing to do with their skill at the game, they didn't even know all the controls, it's just the game-engine had decided that in that match, their team was on fire and was going to get all the breaks. For all that I have far more ability than them at the game, when the game-engine tilts the pitch in favour of one team, the game engine decides to not make your passes come off, to make the opposition players have better response to intercept passes (remembering that the AI model controls 20 of the 22 players so they don't even have to intercept the pass themselves, the AI model just makes one of their guys intercept, then switches control of him to the human), to reduce your chances of a shot going on in but increase their chance of a shot going in, to reduce you speed when running for loose balls but increase their speed, to reduce your balance but increase theirs, to make the ref blow in favour of them but ignore when they hack you down, to make the bounce of the ball always go in their favour. It's all easy to do once you have the game engine set up. It's just a case of feeding the right numbers into the engine to give one team a bias, whether that team be a human controlled team or an AI team.

 

[RuneEdge]

What makes these games harder in my experience is that you for some inexplicable reason play like shite, not that they play any better. It's that in these games, the occassional strange bounce of the ball, becomes a frequent strange bounce of the ball, or implementation of 'baby-steps' that I explained earlier. The same goes for the type of example I gave of the AI scoring into my own net, these happen much more in the 'tough' ML games than in the regular ones.

If the CPU can score crazy shots from outside the area or score rocket headers, how is that considered as you playing shite? I still play just as well. But if I score a goal, they score one too, or in some cases, score two or three. You can still play just as well but your best is no longer good enough to compete with the increase in difficulty.
There are times when the CPU would dribble past defenders with amazing skill. How is that anything to do with you playing shite? You still make the same tackles and blocks but the CPU this time anticipates them better and gets past you. This isnt a interference. But really just the game getting harder. And I'm 100% sure that the first ISS Pro Evolution on the PSX had this too cuz I've spent more time playing that than most of the later PES games since at the time it was the only game I had for a 5 month period (dont ask why, long story). It just used to happen all the time in important games. But in those days you couldnt do f*ck all about it cuz the game was very basic and you had to more or less just sit back and watch the game beat you 3-0 or even 4-0 at times. Theres nothing weird here. Its something that this series has always had. If you're only picking up on this now then you probably didnt play the previous games long enough.
Saying you dont like this is one thing but to say the previous games were better doesnt make sense really since it also had the problem.



There are also games where absolutely everything goes right for you, you get so many flukey, fortunate breaks of the ball in the one game, and the next match it's completely reversed in favour of the AI.[/QUOTE]
Well not every game is gonna be the same. If you are used to getting breaks in one game, it doesnt give you the right to have just as many chances in the other games. And "flukey breaks" is something that the CPU causes, not you. So how is having less or more breaks considered as the CPU interfering with your control?


If the game was truly using 100% fair and accurate ball-physics, this wouldn't be the case. You can refer to Seabass' claim all you want, but the same man has admitted the AI is cheap. [/QUOTE]
I personally cant find anywhere where he admitted the game is cheap. The only thing I remember him saying was that he didnt like the AI because he wanted it to be actually be more human like rather than suddenly getting tougher to simulate a human opponent. He doesnt say anything about the interferences that you've mentioned. Have you got a link or anything where he does say that? I just showed you proof above that what I said isnt a theory like what you are claiming.


That's not 'more accurate', 'more efficient' or even 'better'. "Cheap". That means it does things it shouldn't do, things which are unfair. The term AI is not limited to opposition players, it also includes your own players who are not selected, it includes coding responsible for ball-physics, it includes refereeing decisions, pretty much everything in the gameplay.[/QUOTE]
Are you just extremely paranoid? Just cuz the CPU controls all players except the one you have the cursor on, it doesnt mean its gonna exploit that power it has over you. I mean, this idea of yours can be applied to EVERY game and say "yeah, this game is cheap cuz I keep losing and I know I didnt press anything to make this happen" And if this is the big reason why the older games are better, are you saying you can control ALL the players in the previous PES games? Cuz if you cant, I can make this same point against all those games too. :roll:
But if you are still think the CPU controls your other 10 players in a negative way then read this:

This pretty much flushes your suspicion of the CPU exploiting your other players, down the toilet. Cuz Seabass makes clear in the guide that EVERY thing is calculated including the movement of the players around the pitch. And as it says, his dream is for a team with high teamwork to be able to beat a Real Madrid. But if you saw something like that happen you'd probably think the game cheated. :roll:
Remember that this is a simulation, if you dont like the realism then you're playing the wrong game.

There are games I've played in the ML where I've went to a team at the foot of the table and struggled badly, then went out and skelped Bayern Munich 8-2 in the first-leg of a WEFA Cup Quarter-Final. This would be ok were it a freak occurance, but it's not. It's got too much of a pattern not to be.[/QUOTE]
Again, you continue to complain about the CPU and the Master League. You still havent answered the question of why this should be a problem against another human. You said your little childhood story at the start of this thread about how you used to have so much fun with mates or cousins in the older games but now you dont want to talk about multiplayer, do you? :roll:

 

[RuneEdge]

Glad you finally admit that some games arelike that. I've had the exact same experience, and I'm sure everyone else has too, where you can re-play a match again and again and eventually scrape a win but the question is why was it so hard in that match? We're not claiming that you have zero control, but there are certainly matches where the balance is tilted in favour of the opposition, not just in that they get all nearly all the breaks (which obviously means you get nearly none), but in that your players don not pass as well, have reduced response, reduced chances of shooting a goal. It's done to create the impression of realism, so that if you;re really good at the game, you can't just go out and play the same every match and so win 4-0 every match. It's done to make some matches much harder (but they're still winnable, even if you have to try 15 times), just like some matches are much harder in real life.

But whilst it may seem to reflect real life, it effectively reduces the amount of control you have, making the game more annoying than enjoyable. This is what we are discussing. Is this level of "scripting" the game to make it much harder for you, by reducing your level of control and reducing your luck, the way we want to see the gameplay develop? For some of us, no.

Why is it a problem whn human players human, because exactly the same tilting the balance in favour of one team occurs in human v human matches. I've played matches against guys whom I know to be great players, and expecte to get humiliated, but it became clear early on that I was getting the gameplay tilted in my favour and I've won games 4-0. The opponents have said I played great but to be honest, I felt rather sheepish because I played a very ordinary game, but everything went my way. I could see the gameplay engine was making my every pass and shot come off but making his every pass and shot go astray. He wasn;t a bad player, the game-engine just didn't allow him to play.

Likewise, I've had the opposite experience where I've played against novices yet have been whipped by them. They just clicked the pass button a few times, then click shoot and hey, a goal appears out of nothing. I spend the rest of the entire match wrestling with super-cancel, etc just to make simple 5 yard passes reach their man, whilst they effortlessly click their way around with precision passing. Nothing to do with their skill at the game, they didn't even know all the controls, it's just the game-engine had decided that in that match, their team was on fire and was going to get all the breaks. For all that I have far more ability than them at the game, when the game-engine tilts the pitch in favour of one team, the game engine decides to not make your passes come off, to make the opposition players have better response to intercept passes (remembering that the AI model controls 20 of the 22 players so they don't even have to intercept the pass themselves, the AI model just makes one of their guys intercept, then switches control of him to the human), to reduce your chances of a shot going on in but increase their chance of a shot going in, to reduce you speed when running for loose balls but increase their speed, to reduce your balance but increase theirs, to make the ref blow in favour of them but ignore when they hack you down, to make the bounce of the ball always go in their favour. It's all easy to do once you have the game engine set up. It's just a case of feeding the right numbers into the engine to give one team a bias, whether that team be a human controlled team or an AI team.

Sorry but thats just BS. You keep saying that the game favours the weaker player but how does the game know who's the crap player and who's the good player? Why is it always assisting the weaker person? Surely it would at some point favour the better person allowing them to completely annihilate the weaker opponent. You're just making stuff up mate. Read the damn guide and it will all be explained. Every single thing from off the ball movement and positioning, and shooting and passing and how fast you run, etc is all down to calculations that make it as accurate as possible. Just cuz its possible for Konami to easily implement those interferences, it doesnt mean they actually included them.
If you read the post before this, it explains why things might just go right sometimes and sometimes it wont.

 

[ClassicD]

If the CPU can score crazy shots from outside the area or score rocket headers, how is that considered as you playing shite?

Read what I posted. I did not say the CPU suddenly plays better, I made it perfectly clear that they don't play any better in these games. I said these games are tougher because the game affects your own players.

And I'm 100% sure that the first ISS Pro Evolution on the PSX had this too cuz I've spent more time playing that than most of the later PES games since at the time it was the only game I had for a 5 month period (dont ask why, long story). It just used to happen all the time in important games. But in those days you couldnt do f*ck all about it cuz the game was very basic and you had to more or less just sit back and watch the game beat you 3-0 or even 4-0 at times. Theres nothing weird here. Its something that this series has always had. If you're only picking up on this now then you probably didnt play the previous games long enough.
Saying you dont like this is one thing but to say the previous games were better doesnt make sense really since it also had the problem.

I disagree, they didn't have this problem at all IMO. I regularly remember romping the ML, with every game playing out freely on it's own terms with no preset difficulty like the series currently has.

Well not every game is gonna be the same. If you are used to getting breaks in one game, it doesnt give you the right to have just as many chances in the other games. And "flukey breaks" is something that the CPU causes, not you. So how is having less or more breaks considered as the CPU interfering with your control?

I don't expect to have as many chances in every game, nor do I want them. If the CPU, in your words, causes these lucky breaks, then how can you possibly maintain that the ball-physics are done in 100% real-time, when they are the main deciding factor in whether it's a game with a preset bias against or for you?

I personally cant find anywhere where he admitted the game is cheap. The only thing I remember him saying was that he didnt like the AI because he wanted it to be actually be more human like rather than suddenly getting tougher to simulate a human opponent. He doesnt say anything about the interferences that you've mentioned. Have you got a link or anything where he does say that? I just showed you proof above that what I said isnt a theory like what you are claiming.

No, I don't have a link handy. The guy has done a number of interviews over the past 6-12 months, particularly regarding what improvements he wants to make for the next-gen versions, it's here that he mentioned it in one article. I'm sorry that you feel the need for 'proof' of this, I can't provide it.

This pretty much flushes your suspicion of the CPU exploiting your other players, down the toilet. Cuz Seabass makes clear in the guide that EVERY thing is calculated including the movement of the players around the pitch. And as it says, his dream is for a team with high teamwork to be able to beat a Real Madrid. But if you saw something like that happen you'd probably think the game cheated. :roll:
Remember that this is a simulation, if you dont like the realism then you're playing the wrong game.

Again, you're putting words into my mouth. The simple fact is, everytime someone provides an example of the AI taking control of what should be a human-controlled player, you pass it off as that person mis-interpreting it, telling them they've pressed the wrong button or it's down to their form arrow. No one will ever convince you this happens, because you are so determined in your mindset that it couldn't be true.

Again, you continue to complain about the CPU and the Master League. You still havent answered the question of why this should be a problem against another human. You said your little childhood story at the start of this thread about how you used to have so much fun with mates or cousins in the older games but now you dont want to talk about multiplayer, do you? :roll:

You can stop with the condescending crap right now. If you don't want to discuss this properly then don't bother posting on the matter. :roll:

I referred to the Master League to illustrate how the AI can determine before a ball is even kicked, which team will have the advantage. This is perfectly applicable to multiplayer as well, it doesn't need to "read minds", it just randomly chooses a side!

 

[winston]

Sorry but thats just BS. You keep saying that the game favours the weaker player but how does the game know who's the crap player and who's the good player? Why is it always assisting the weaker person? Surely it would at some point favour the better person allowing them to completely annihilate the weaker opponent.

Fair comment, I should have been more explicit in saying that it doesn't happen in all matches that the weaker human player gets the advantages. That does not mean that it does not happen that sometimes a weak player can whip a better player, not on skill, but because the game engine makes it much easier for him to effortlessly pass around with precision and score with any old shot. I'm quite sure that if, during such a match, the players swapped controllers, the weak player now playing with the team being impeded by the game engine would no longer be able to effortlessly stroke the ball around, but instead start wondering wtf is up. There may be "reasons" for one team being given the advantage....to represent home advantage, players in better form, better morale, whatever.

The thread is about the scripted feel, the intangible factors which now smother the raw gameplay, the fact that the game is now as much about whether the game engine is going to give your team or the opposition team all the advantages in the next match as how good you are as a player.

On the subject of Seabass's teamplay, I have no doubt it is all true, but it is how it is implemented that we are complaining about. The game engine decides that one team has better teamplay than another, so before you've even started a match, that team with better teamplay coded into them will automatically be better at passing and moving....that's scripted, not gameplay, not much you can do with your controller if the the game engine has already decided your team has poorer teamplay so will not pass very well. That is taking control away from the human player. Now that we've concluded that the game engine will determine the likelihood of your passing moves coming off, not your controller, then one can apply the same principle to all aspects of the gameplay.

I know the counter argument is that it is more like real life if some teams with weaker technical players have better teamplay so have a better chance of winning, so it's great that they've implemented it. It's a difficult balance, you can't have all teams play exactly the same with the exact same ability.

But the problem I have is the way they implement things like temaplay. The problem is, in some situations, the game engine decides that one team should reach a loose ball first, but rather than use a true physics engine and use the players stats honestly, it scritps it crudely so that your guy will be slowed down and even change direction in order that he doesn't reach the ball first, because the game engine has decided he;s not to reach that ball first. This is the one of the "cheap" tactics inherent in the gameplay that we don't like, the fact that the game is directly interfering with the guy I'm controlling in order that the "right" outcome in a particular passage of play is arrived at. Sometimes, super-cancel is redundant.

If it was already so perfect, why is Seabass dreaming of making it better in next-gen hardware whilst lamenting the limitations of the current hardware and the cheap tactics they've had to adopt in the AI?

 

[winston]

This pretty much flushes your suspicion of the CPU exploiting your other players, down the toilet. Cuz Seabass makes clear in the guide that EVERY thing is calculated including the movement of the players around the pitch.

Of course everything is "calculated". This is exactly where the problem lies. It calculates that, in a given situation, the cpu player should reach a loose ball before your player, so needs to slow down your player by the right amount or even make him change direction in order that he doesn't reach it first, over-riding the fact you're pressing the sprint button or aiming in a particular direction with your controller. But then, when the cpu guy has reached the ball, your guy suddenly springs back into full speed because that particular calculation is finished.

Do you have any knowledge of computer programming? If you did, you would surely accept that it is a very simple concept to grasp.It's an AI model, not real life. Sometimes, the AI model is too weak so they have to resort to cheap tactics.

 

[MatTheCat]

Chirst....talk about talking in cirles....
Chirst....talk about talking in cirles....
Chirst....talk about talking in cirles....
Chirst....talk about tal.....

Some good points raised though albeit all points alluding to the exact same thing with the incorrigible RuneEdge never failing to find a counter theory (the same counter theories actually) time and time again for every assertion that PES5 might suffer from scripted cheap AI.

RuneEdge, face it. PES5 suffers from Cheap Scripted AI, end of story! although i have never read a Seabass interview where he has refered to the AI as 'Cheap', I have read interviews where he has alluded that the AI is a little flawed regarding the way that players receive the ball.

Since any criticism of PES5 seems to hit a personal nerve with you, I would say that I beleive the PES series is being held back by the limitations of the PS2 (the main platform). Hopefully Seabass will develop an X360 version that breaks away from the confines of the PS2 and the PC version can be a direct port of the 360 version other than the PS2.

 

[RuneEdge]

OK. I'm starting to get really tired with this cuz I have to constantly repeat myself but you are obviously ignoring what I say as if I never said it. Everytime you question me, I'm thinking "I JUST F*CKIN ANSWERED THAT".
So I'm gonna try and make this my last post by explaining everything I can.
This is gonna be HUGE so I'm gonna break it up into 3 posts. Dont bother replying unless you've read ALL of these posts.
I've noticed what you're been doing and its the same BS that I get from a lot of other n00bs here. I make about 10 good points and what do you do? You find one little point that you can counter and then ignore the rest. I'm getting sick of this crap so from now on, if you think I'm wrong, tell me why my WHOLE post is wrong. Not why one line from a paragraph of 50 lines is wrong.
I didnt want this to get ugly (and I even PMed you about this a while ago) but you've just pissed me off by writing post after post after post and not even read what I have to say. Notice how most of your posts dont even acknowledge all my good points? Cuz you just seem so determined to be be right (which you accuse me of being)

So I'll say this once and only once more (and this goes to the rest of you too).
PLEASE read the whole damn thing word for word and only after you're read it, understood it, taken it all in, that you should reply cuz all thats gonna happen is that I'm gonna keep quoting what I've already said before. Lets move on a little faster and cover all the points I've made, ok?
Its just a simple request so that we're not going in circles for the next few years.

 

[RuneEdge]

Read what I posted. I did not say the CPU suddenly plays better, I made it perfectly clear that they don't play any better in these games. I said these games are tougher because the game affects your own players.

Well you asked me the question of why the game feels harder and I told you why. I'm the one that told you the CPU plays better and it does. Improved individual dribbles, perfect passing, and much more accurate shots from outside the area have nothing to do with your own performance. Its a simple sign of the CPU doing everything with maximum accuracy which I personally call "cheating" since it only happens in games and moments that are convenient for the CPU. Its almost as if you're playing against God himself. He's not cheating in the sense that he interferes but he's doing everything to perfection which we would call cheap since its easier for the CPU to execute and it happens at the right moments. I've said this before and I'll explain it again. This game isnt the only game that does this. Almost all games do it especially both PES and FIFA. Its a just a way of simulating the feeling of a tighter contest. The AI is designed to draw or win all its games and if at any time its losing, it'll cheat (in the way I said, not your way) to achieve its goal. I know this for a fact cuz its in all types of games like beat em ups and other multiplayer games. I've even used basic game making software which allow you to implement this 'feature' into your own games because its actually quite common and normal. And I'll also add that since its something that the CPU does and not something that it makes you do, this shouldnt be a problem when facing a human player.

I disagree, they didn't have this problem at all IMO. I regularly remember romping the ML, with every game playing out freely on it's own terms with no preset difficulty like the series currently has.

Well I'm 100% sure it happens. If you think I'm saying a load of BS then you have to realise that my opinion (I'll call it that cuz if I call it a fact, people will start moaning again) on this is as good as yours. My opinion on the past game cheating sounds as dumb to you as your assumption that the current game interferes with you. None of us can prove it but I can tell you that what I'm suggesting is very common among games in general and it shouldnt really be a surprise to you if its true that the old PES games cheat.

I don't expect to have as many chances in every game, nor do I want them. If the CPU, in your words, causes these lucky breaks, then how can you possibly maintain that the ball-physics are done in 100% real-time, when they are the main deciding factor in whether it's a game with a preset bias against or for you?

You and a few others have mentioned many instances where you felt that the game was biased towards someone. Well I'm gonna do my best here to explain most of those moments.
When I said they cause these "lucky breaks", I mean when the CPU makes a mistake such as forgetting to mark a player or jumping in for the tackle too early. And these apply for humans too cuz they are just simple mistakes that separate the good players from the bad players or 3* difficulty from 6* difficulty. If one person does something on the pitch, his actions have a ripple effect on the rest of the pitch. Its basically the idea of causality. If a player or CPU makes a decision such as moving around in the formation or standing your ground instead of lunging in for the tackle, it could create or prevent an opening in the game later on. This is what causes "lucky breaks". And this is how I explain how you can have chances in one game and not the other. Its all about the decisions you might have made in one game but not in the other. There are so many other things to consider here like those articles from Seabass that I posted. The formation changes between the games, the line ups, the form that the players are in, etc.

Heres a good example. Now lets say you have 2 center backs with very low form, his stats are gonna drop like crazy. I can confirm from the guide that the lowest the defence stat drops by is 16%. Now lets assume you had a world class defender like Stam with 95 for defence. His stat is gonna drop to 78 after the reduction. Now imagine how much half decent player's stats will drop to. And this is just the defence stat, cuz nearly all of his stats will be reduced. He'll run slower, defend badly, make bad passes, etc. And if someone had 75 for his acceleration, its gonna drop to about 60, thanks to bad form. Just look at how much of a drop that is for acceleration 60 is pretty crap for even a bad player compared to the 75 which is more than acceptable. And thats just the arrows, if your fatigue level in a game drops below halfway, more stat reductions take place. Now if your form arrow caused your stamina stat to drop, this will also cause your fatigue level in the game to drop quicker. And once that drops, loads of other stats will drop again too. So basically you're screwed just because one player is not in form.
Going back to the point I was making, if you had 2 center backs with low form arrows, they are gonna suck ass in the game. If they had the misfortune of playing against someone like Henry, you're bound to get loads of "lucky breaks" as explained above. Now in another game, your defenders might have a red arrow which actually gives you increases in stats, so now all of a sudden, the tables have turned. Now YOU would have an even better defender while they might have a weak striker. This is all because of those little arrows that people underestimate. This is one very good explanation as to why you might have a great game and then suddenly have a completely different game straight after it.

Another issue you might have is how come the players make random mistakes in the game like your header that when into your own goal or how you might hit the ball into row Z when facing an open goal from 3 yards. Well another very important stat is the consistency stat. Seasbass says this:

"misdirect a header" Sound familiar?
Its small things like these that make a huge difference in this game. You think theres no way to explain it other than calling it interferences or cheating but this isnt true as Seabass says.

Another problem you had was when you said the following:

Ok, the ball breaks loose, and your instruct your selected player to dash after it. At the same time, an AI player is attempting to get to the loose ball too, but he's clearly going to lose out because he's too far away. Your player then stops his dash and starts taking tiny steps, slowing down, until the AI player who has ran at full speed the entire time, is nearer to the ball than your player. As soon as he's clearly going to get to the ball first, the game 'releases' your player from it's grip and lets you re-assume control of him again, but of course by this time it's too late.

The thing is if you watch a replay of the incident, you can actually see the game fucking with your man. Sometimes he'll do a strange animation, and other times he'll do the animation for a full-on, sprint, but move at an extremely slow speed.

Super-cancel does nothing here.

And to that, I explained that scenario with this:

I've only told you guys what Seabass has told everyone, whereas you guys have just assumed that these "interferences" exist. How do we know what really happened when you experienced those moments that you had. Maybe it was just a bug in the game (and there are many in the game that people on this site have complained about in the past), or maybe it was the games AI not knowing how to handle the situation like in the example ClassicD gave, maybe the game didnt understand that you wanted to run after the ball so it gave you a more manual control over the player (which is normally slower at running compared to when the player has a locked on target such as a loose ball or a attacking defender).

Now remember that this is only a computer, it cant read your mind. So the game could easily do something that you dont want happening. Its not something you hate the game for cuz its something that cant be handled by a machine.

And finally, the last two things that people in this thread moaned about was in this post that I also explained:
http://www.evo-web.co.uk/forums/showpost.php?p=647209&postcount=72

So far there hasnt been a single thing in this game that cant be explained. Now read every single bit of this post (including that link a few lines above) and tell me where you are right and I am wrong.

 

[RuneEdge]

No, I don't have a link handy. The guy has done a number of interviews over the past 6-12 months, particularly regarding what improvements he wants to make for the next-gen versions, it's here that he mentioned it in one article. I'm sorry that you feel the need for 'proof' of this, I can't provide it.

So how am I supposed to believe anything you say? Tomorrow you might come here and say that the CPU took over full control and starting playing as if its a CPU vs CPU match. And we all will have to sit here and believe it? Obviously I have to believe you to some extent but you also have to draw the line somewhere cuz people will easily makes things up in a situation like this to give themselves a fake arguement. I've only told you things that are KNOWN for being true.

Again, you're putting words into my mouth. The simple fact is, everytime someone provides an example of the AI taking control of what should be a human-controlled player, you pass it off as that person mis-interpreting it, telling them they've pressed the wrong button or it's down to their form arrow. No one will ever convince you this happens, because you are so determined in your mindset that it couldn't be true.

Read my post before this, I explained it all again for like the 4th time. And I think you're the one thats "so determined in your mindset" cuz unlike you, I explored the game and looked for possible explanations instead of just calling the game a cheat.

I referred to the Master League to illustrate how the AI can determine before a ball is even kicked, which team will have the advantage. This is perfectly applicable to multiplayer as well, it doesn't need to "read minds", it just randomly chooses a side!

LMAO, Now you're just making it sound like a special feature that they'd blatantly include into game and the instruction manual too.

 

[beachryan]

I don't care what seabass writes in an official, please pay more than you've already paid for our 15th version of the game this year guide. The bottom line is the game uses the stats found in the player rankings, then runs through various formulae to calculate what happens. And the bottom line is that the computer changes those stats depending on the situation.

If you're in any doubt at all, play a 'match' mode game in WE9:JL with a big european team vs. a random (no offense intended) j-league club. I just did United v. Urawawa reds. Now play away, great fun, balanced, playersl ike Rooney can shrug off tackles, ronaldo is fast as hell, grand.

Now play the exact same match in a cup mode, on the same difficulty settings, with the same players. Whats that, rooney runs into the 5'6" RB and bounces off of him? Oh their dmf can catch ronaldo in a sprint for a floating ball? Oh wow look at that, their striker has outleapt rio ferdinand on a looping cross to head it in? Huh, so Van nistlerooy has missed 6 shots, and they've won 2-0 on their 2 shots all game. Their players are first to everything, your players looked like they've all smoked way too much pot, and the whole is passing them by. If you can't see that from that simple experiment, than I don't know man, I got nothing else...

 

[ClassicD]

OK. I'm starting to get really tired with this cuz I have to constantly repeat myself but you are obviously ignoring what I say as if I never said it. Everytime you question me, I'm thinking "I JUST F*CKIN ANSWERED THAT".

JOIN THE FUCKING CLUB TOOTS! :roll:

I've noticed what you're been doing and its the same BS that I get from a lot of other n00bs here. I make about 10 good points and what do you do? You find one little point that you can counter and then ignore the rest. I'm getting sick of this crap so from now on, if you think I'm wrong, tell me why my WHOLE post is wrong. Not why one line from a paragraph of 50 lines is wrong.

That's why I quoted 6 points seperately, just a couple of posts ago. I don't quote half your other shite BECAUSE YOU HAVE BEEN REPEATING THE SAME SHITE OVER AND OVER AGAIN WHICH I'VE ALREADY REPLIED TO.

I didnt want this to get ugly (and I even PMed you about this a while ago) but you've just pissed me off by writing post after post after post and not even read what I have to say. Notice how most of your posts dont even acknowledge all my good points? Cuz you just seem so determined to be be right (which you accuse me of being)

No, you didn't want this to get ugly. You just couldn't accept my opinion earlier on, so you accused me of saying I don't give a toss what anyone else thinks and said accepting other people's opinions won't change was totally pointless, and you just couldn't let it go. Your overall tone throughout this thread has been nothing but condescending, you seem to think you are some divine WE/PES prophet who's knowledge engulfs the world, and we should all get on our knees and kiss your arse. You PM'd me and I asked you to keep it in the thread, because it's frustrating enough having to repeat myself for the millionth time in here nevermind doing it over two methods of communication.

Well you asked me the question of why the game feels harder and I told you why.

No, you then quoted a piece where I'd said in my experience the hard games were hard because my own team were affected, and that the AI side actually didn't play any better. You haven't read it properly or you are just incredibly ignorant, because you've quoted my opinion on why certain games are hard and then asked me why AI teams playing better is considered as me playing shite. I never said the AI teams played better, you did, so why are you quoting that? :eh:

Well I'm 100% sure it happens. If you think I'm saying a load of BS then you have to realise that my opinion (I'll call it that cuz if I call it a fact, people will start moaning again) on this is as good as yours. My opinion on the past game cheating sounds as dumb to you as your assumption that the current game interferes with you. None of us can prove it but I can tell you that what I'm suggesting is very common among games in general and it shouldnt really be a surprise to you if its true that the old PES games cheat.

Is that...is it...is it some semblance of acceptance that folk can...they can have different opinions? :shock: :shock: :shock: FUCK ME IT JUST MIGHT BE!

There's a large section you posted here on arrows, form, consistency, etc. I'm afraid you've wasted your time, I and other people have stated they know how these things work and HAVE ALREADY FUCKING EXPLAINED THAT THEY WERE ALSO IN THE OLD VERSIONS OF THE GAME, THAT THEY DIDN'T HAVE AN AFFECT ON IN OUR OPINION! Not to mention, I've seen players with red form arrows exibit these traits, like the weird shooting and AI headers into your own goal.

Another problem you had was when you said the following: (you referred to my 'baby-steps' example)

If these are bugs, why do they only happen in the games that the AI makes tough for you to win, why don't they happen in the games that the AI favours your team?

*Waits for RuneEdge to accuse me of only pressing the wrong buttons in the hard games*

*Laughs*

Now remember that this is only a computer, it cant read your mind. So the game could easily do something that you dont want happening. Its not something you hate the game for cuz its something that cant be handled by a machine.

...

You've already admitted the AI has preset difficulties for different games! It's not a question of reading someone's mind, it's coded into the fucking game that 'Match X' will be tough and 'Match Y' will be a breeze!

So far there hasnt been a single thing in this game that cant be explained.

RuneEdge, if, and remember this is just an 'if', Seabass came up to you and slapped you in the face with a rubber glove, that he'd just dipped in poo and used to write on the wall "The AI interferes." in 20-foot high letters, you'd probably tell us all he didn't really mean it, his wife spiked his saki an hour earlier and he was just a little crazy right now. You could explain anything, you have been clutching at straws the whole thread.

So how am I supposed to believe anything you say? Tomorrow you might come here and say that the CPU took over full control and starting playing as if its a CPU vs CPU match. And we all will have to sit here and believe it? Obviously I have to believe you to some extent but you also have to draw the line somewhere cuz people will easily makes things up in a situation like this to give themselves a fake arguement. I've only told you things that are KNOWN for being true.

So you go onto messageboards, engage in discussion then when you can't convert people's thinking and opinion to the Cult of RuneEdge you just 'decide' they are making things up?

Why does this not surprise me.

Read my post before this, I explained it all again for like the 4th time. And I think you're the one thats "so determined in your mindset" cuz unlike you, I explored the game and looked for possible explanations instead of just calling the game a cheat.

What, like you did?

"Its a simple sign of the CPU doing everything with maximum accuracy which I personally call "cheating" since it only happens in games and moments that are convenient for the CPU."

Hypocrite. :applause:

BEST THREAD EVER.

 

[ClassicD]

Here's a seperate post for some things I considered, that aren't related to your posts.

If the game makes it's CPU players better by improving their ability like you say, surely by doing that it's automatically making your players worse? The gap in ability between the teams is growing bigger if their players improve, so in effect, it's making your players worse by making their players better. If the game didn't make it's players better, but just decreased your players' stats, it has an identical effect does it not? It makes no difference.

Another thing to consider. If the ball-physics are done in real-time, what is to stop the AI improving itself in terms of accurate passing (like you said they do), so that the pass hits a player standing in the way at a certain point, in which the real-time ball physics would have to make the ball bounce a certain way? That would mean Seabass could maintain his claim to 100% realistic, 'on the fly' ball physics at the same time as your claim that the AI players become insanely accurate.