FIFA 12 Discussion Thread

romagnoli said:
The idea that a football game does or doesn't have soul is by absolutely no means bullshit. Just because people don't know exactly how to articulate its presence doesn't mean it isn't there for these people.

Quantifying what 'soul' is does require a hell of a lot more than just listing a few bullet points. It's facile to just say soul = momentum or aesthetics or whatever. It'd take several pages to fully list what gives a football game soul, and tying it to specifics would only be one page - the rest would have to explain the knock-on effects of these specifics to gameplay and player mentality etc.

I can appreciate people using the term as a crutch simply because it's one word compared to thousands.
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Yep, agree totally. I can appreciate what FIFA does well, I really can. But for me, MY version of soul is simply that the game can shift in flow and pace, with short passes/long passes, variation in build up play, variety in goals, and just the general player interaction, player switching, as well as differentials in player pressure/non pressure.

Quite simply and succinctly, PES feels like a fluid dynamic football match in which you can create almost limitless situations given the right contexts. The CPU play against you in a variety of different ways. FIFA feels like a rigid, grid like, solid video game, of almost endless repetition. Fantastic if you play a few games a week so it seems fresh, but impossible for me in trying to play lots of games back to back. You play one game of FIFA, you have more or less seen it all. It took me roughly a month to know 'how to beat' the CPU on Legendary, manual. It has taken me 6/7 months with PES, to get to a point where I'm comfortable but in no way have I even remotely mastered it. There are just no weak points, no glitch moves etc etc.

The AI in FIFA is also the dumbest in virtually ANY football game, ever. Your teammate defensive AI is just so shocking that I'm feels like half of them are on bungs to try and do their best to screw your entire defensive system over. It's as if they are purposefully being shit. I haven't even come to the gamebreaking scripting which makes PES' scripting look like kids stuff. I'm talking unstoppable 45/90 minute goals, simply insane player moving, the lack of laws of physics, incredible AI decision making, baffling momentum shifts, a seemingly total disregard for virtually any stat other than speed and strength (and even then on the higher modes the stat boosts for the CPU make even these irrelevant).

Then we have the tactics board. Simply a totally unworkable frustrating pain in the arse (that is right up there with masturbating with a cheese grater), that it literally takes about a week to move a right winger into a right CM position, should there be players 'in the vicinity' of him, which then takes a further hour to manipulate the entire fkin squad around because of base position rectangles intertwining. I mean WTF.

PES 1.06 patch has now incorporated the best little parts of FIFA in terms of adding more weight to the players and respecting speed and acceleration again, made the physics better and are getting there with the animations.

But the core question is this - who's camp would I rather be in? Would I rather be in the PES camp and already have 'the bottle of magic' in terms of gameplay, with the aesthetics needing work, or would I rather have the aesthetics and have to work on changing the gameplay? For me, the answer is simple.
 
Fifa is to rigid and structured in its gameplay i.e. lacks randomness, freedom and random variability. This could equate to a translation of ''lacks soul''.

Where soul is a sense of the chaotic realism that happens in a real football match.
 
Playing fully manual with Placebo's sliders this game is brilliant. For me it plays a very free and random game, full manual definitely helps with that.
 
Ever taken your hands of the controller in game while playing FIFA ?

The AI does it all for you. The players run where they want and even bring ball under control. That's why it never feels like your in total control when playing fifa.
 
SteelHorse75 said:
Ever taken your hands of the controller in game while playing FIFA ?

The AI does it all for you. The players run where they want and even bring ball under control. That's why it never feels like your in total control when playing fifa.
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tbf when ive had to leave my pad unnattened the oppostion usually scores....or at least it goes for goal kick.
 
Tim7 said:
Sorry, which button is for "ball control" on PES then?
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If you're not being facetious, R2, R1, and the left analog can all be used to control the ball. Each button affects how the ball can be taken under control. Of course, players are able to trap the ball automatically, subject to the 'technique' stat of course.
 
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romagnoli said:
The idea that a football game does or doesn't have soul is by absolutely no means bullshit. Just because people don't know exactly how to articulate its presence doesn't mean it isn't there for these people.

Quantifying what 'soul' is does require a hell of a lot more than just listing a few bullet points. It's facile to just say soul = momentum or aesthetics or whatever. It'd take several pages to fully list what gives a football game soul, and tying it to specifics would only be one page - the rest would have to explain the knock-on effects of these specifics to gameplay and player mentality etc.

I can appreciate people using the term as a crutch simply because it's one word compared to thousands.
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It is complete bullshit from the standpoint that since "soul" can mean different things to different people, it's essentially meaningless.

What's worse is that suggesting in a FIFA thread that you prefer PES over FIFA because it has soul is barely a step above trolling. It's arguing that PES has something that FIFA does not, or at least has less of, whilst that thing (soul) neither has a common accepted definition nor is it verifiable.

It's starting an argument that cannot be argued; it's arguing the inarguable.

This is no different than the Xbox vs Playstation debate, or CoD vs Battlefield - people say the most asinine bullshit, not because they wish to summarize rather than be specific, but because they want to believe that they are right in choosing one product over the other.

If it was a choice between one word compared to thousands, as you say, that'd be one thing. But it's not. All it takes is saying something like PES or FIFA has the mix of qualities closest to what I'm looking for. Or something like, FIFA's gameplay still lacks the variety, depth, and attention to fundamentals I prefer.

Hardly thousands of words, is easily understood, and isn't inflammatory.

I get that PES still has the edge over FIFA in several areas. But why is it that when we defend PES there's this tendency to lump its better qualities together, call it soul or magic, as if doing so imbues those aspects with greater importance than the many areas in which PES is less than satisfactory?

Personally, the emotions I once got from playing PES in the old days I now get more from FIFA than PES. I don't think that change has anything to do with soul but if it means that I have grown to prefer the soulless, then so be it!
 
And to everyone arguing that an advantage that PES has over FIFA is that it's unpredictable have it completely backwards - PES's gameplay being unpredictable is one of the game's biggest flaws this generation.

Goalkeepers, ball physics, passing, shooting, responsiveness, AI, animations - their quality and performance in PES this generation has at times been terribly unpredictable and inconsistent. This is bad.

When you cannot predict that a goalkeeper will respond in a realistic fashion, this is really bad. When the ball does not behave in a predictable way because its physics are poor, this is bad. When you cannot easily predict where you're shooting, this is not good. When you cannot predict with confidence whether a player near the ball will respond to it, this is bad.

Where PES is better than FIFA is in the variety of play. The AI in PES plays in a greater variety of ways. Goals in PES come in a greater variety. Players make a greater variety of choices when in possession. Etc.

Which is why whenever this unpredictable/variety debate pops up, FIFA fans point to full-manual h2h games - because the AI in neither football game can match the combination of variety and unpredictability that comes when playing against a real person. (So does that mean full-manual h2h matches in FIFA have more "soul" than PES matches against the CPU?)
 
@mfmaxpower some excellent posts I agree with, especially this one:

mfmaxpower said:
Personally, the emotions I once got from playing PES in the old days I now get more from FIFA than PES. I don't think that change has anything to do with soul but if it means that I have grown to prefer the soulless, then so be it!
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I score goals in Fifa, get wins, concede goals, lose, that makes me yell out loud, punch the air, swear, sulk basically I'm completely emotionally involved in the games I play, I try PES and all I feel is a mixture of amusement, shock and frustration.
 
tc811 said:
If you're not being facetious, R2, R1, and the left analog can all be used to control the ball. Each button affects how the ball can be taken under control. Of course, players are able to trap the ball automatically, subject to the 'technique' stat of course.
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Much like the right analogue stick on FIFA for first touch control then.
 
Placebo said:
@mfmaxpower some excellent posts I agree with, especially this one:



I score goals in Fifa, get wins, concede goals, lose, that makes me yell out loud, punch the air, swear, sulk basically I'm completely emotionally involved in the games I play, I try PES and all I feel is a mixture of amusement, shock and frustration.
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Totally agree! Using your sliders and settings, but 6 min halves, I played an FA Cup as Charlton. Lost in the first match against Wycombe after a replay in extra time. Was 2 great games though and had almost everything! I was totally immersed in the whole thing :)).

Going to start a Champions League as Chelsea tonight. It's got me slightly hooked and I just can't wait to play another match!
 
I must admit as a PES guy for years... I could never play a FIFA game longer than a month without going back to PES.

FIFA 12 really impressed me. The level of play have improved... and playin with a friend was alot of fun! MAJOR issues tough that I find that PES does it WAY better...is the atmosphere and corners and crosses into the box and player runs and intelligence on the pitch.

fifa player model look TERRIBLE, they look like zombies wwith no brain or emotions its awful looking.

set piece and corner and crosses are TERRIBLE...always the same thing. u rarely see a true motion of player going in for an header...I mean they dont even JUMP... to head the ball its terrible and not authentic looking at all. And player runs are ALWAYS the SAME...its funny how the game always make the same decision when ur on the pitch!


FIFA 12 is a good game... I must admit, player individuality have MUCH improved and its really helping the franchise get to a better level!
 
I've been playing a lot of both lately, and whilst I am finding new levels of enjoyment all the time with PES, I really can't get the satisfaction I'm after with FIFA.

Things which are really, really grinding me now with FIFA.

1) Utterly stupid ridiculous defensive AI. About the worst on any football game ever, just feels like your constantly wrestling with your team to get in the right places, all the time.
2) CPU clearances that go to the CPU all the time. Utterly ridiculous.
3) Scripted 45/90 minute goals, been raised many times.
4) Loose balls going to CPU an just the general unresponsiveness of players to anything loose.
5) Higher levels, things like stats and impact engine mean absolutely nothing.
6) Just player positioning. It's just bugging me. For example goal kicks, the furthest striker is like on the half way line, when in reality the defensive line would drop way back beyond the half way line because the keeper can virtually kick it the length of the pitch nowadays. So what you have is a goal kick, a flick on from your striker on the halfway line, then ball going straight to the CPU. Retarded. Because of the weirdness of player positioning and bad AI, the aerial game becomes a non-event.
7) No variation in CPU build up play, using sliders, not sliders or anything in between.
AND MY BIGGEST BUG BEAR WHICH IS JUST DESTROYING ANY ENJOYMENT -
7) Complete and utter lack of momentum/inertia, it's just crazy. The CPU can just turn at improbably, impossible high speeds....and that's anyone regardless of stats.

The passing is nice and so is the shooting. I like the day games pitch textures etc, and love the injuries. The transfers are a little crazy and unrealistic.

But the biggest thing they have to work on is just player intelligence and runs, CPU build up play, and the absolutely MUST introduce momentum and inertia and make stats mean something.
 
I find fks random and hard to score in fifa though I aitn tried much. In pes its easy to know how much power bar and how to aim etc...FIFA seems random. DOnt get many fks and rarely score.
 
actually when u guys get free kicks are u confident of makin a good effort on target or near nevermind score

when i play pes im always confidetn when i play fifa i have no clue where its gonna go unless its close then i press l1 and loadsa power for a drvien shot
 
pes4lyfe said:
actually when u guys get free kicks are u confident of makin a good effort on target or near nevermind score

when i play pes im always confidetn when i play fifa i have no clue where its gonna go unless its close then i press l1 and loadsa power for a drvien shot
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Im the opposite, In Fifa 12 i can score from freekicks in good positions 30/70, Keepers are much better at saving now which is a good thing. Fifa 11 i was about 80/20

With PES 12 i reckon it's about 5/95
 
Flaw3d Genius said:
Im the opposite, In Fifa 12 i can score from freekicks in good positions 30/70, Keepers are much better at saving now which is a good thing. Fifa 11 i was about 80/20

With PES 12 i reckon it's about 5/95
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Ah well I never practice. And I rarely get them so when I do its just random.

Though when i have pracitced I rarely get them on target. And Im sure player individuality changes everything.

When i do score in fifa I do so by only pressing shoot I notice if I press any directions then my shot alwasy goes of target, is that right?

Also, how about headers I mention someone else say before and FIFA lacks the feeling of power headers that u had in pes and diving headed goals, dont recall ever seeing 1? In pes you could do real powerful headers from crsses and corners and diving headers but this feels weak and rare in fifa?
 
ALso must admit the game with placebos sldiers is very good. Actually its not that repitive at all many games are different and varied though its true many attacking movements can be repeated but I guess thats the same in all sports games somewhat.

BUt yeh on default the game is shocking, with placebos sliders its a quality game tbh.

Makes u wonder that people can make the game much better than EA whats that all about?

Someone at EA should be told about placebos sliders and then see why this makes it better and adapt this for deafult in fifa 13. No doubt fifa 13 will suffer same default issues?
 
Problem with free kicks in FIFA is their trajectory. Even the normal, placed free kicks are whipped in like bullets. On PES you have more variety in speed and trajectory but it tends to look more natural. Weird that, since FIFA's in game shooting looks very good.
 
pes4lyfe said:
ALso must admit the game with placebos sldiers is very good. Actually its not that repitive at all many games are different and varied though its true many attacking movements can be repeated but I guess thats the same in all sports games somewhat.

BUt yeh on default the game is shocking, with placebos sliders its a quality game tbh.

Makes u wonder that people can make the game much better than EA whats that all about?

Someone at EA should be told about placebos sliders and then see why this makes it better and adapt this for deafult in fifa 13. No doubt fifa 13 will suffer same default issues?
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Ea recommend a guy called Wootalls sliders and he is on Pesfan. They are excellent.
 
Quick question,

I transfer listed a player I wished to sell, but then the transfer window ended before i could sell him. I realised that i was short of numbers anyway so i then went to 'unlist' him. Although, as soon as i do that it comes up with 'purchased this season' next to his name :CONFUSE:

Does anyone know how to fix this?
 
Dave said:
Quick question,

I transfer listed a player I wished to sell, but then the transfer window ended before i could sell him. I realised that i was short of numbers anyway so i then went to 'unlist' him. Although, as soon as i do that it comes up with 'purchased this season' next to his name :CONFUSE:

Does anyone know how to fix this?
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It'll reset with time.
 
ektorkeiko said:
probably is because i am getting old and lazy in my mid 30es, but i really miss the days where games had no sliders, no speed setting and no zillion of button configuration option.

i just wanna put on the disc and play a nice game.
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This! Give us a universal control scheme as well like PES used to be on PS2.
 
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