The Retro-PES Corner

There was a cool scoreboard selector for PES5.

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Italy 1990 World Cup mod (Ciais was working on this back in the day). Font looks like it's from PES6 but I suspect this is WE9 modded somehow. I've had too many mods to remember them all haha.

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Got it from here: https://www.facebook.com/we9historiamundiales/
  • It's in Spanish
  • It can be a pain to install, as you can't have all WCs at once, you need to constantly swap EXEs, OFs, e_text, ...
It is a great mod, don't misunderstand me, I just wanted to let you know of the problems I faced back in the day to let it run :))

EDIT: It looks like he finally got to use Kitserver's latest version, with HD stadiums too
 
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Ciais said:
Got it from here: https://www.facebook.com/we9historiamundiales/

  • It's in Spanish
    It can be a pain to install, as you can't have all WCs at once, you need to constantly swap EXEs, OFs, e_text, ...
It is a great mod, don't misunderstand me, I just wanted to let you know of the problems I faced back in the day to let it run :))

EDIT: It looks like he finally got to use Kitserver's latest version, with HD stadiums too
Click to expand...

Ah, I know this one. The database of kits and stadiums is amazing. However, wasn't it this one that had very bad OF's? Player stats were completely random.
 
@Chris Davies: I haven't played ISS PE2 for a long, long while, couldn't say for sure. But for me ISS Pro Evo was in its own league because it was so revolutionary, ISS PE2 just had to build upon it.
 
miguelfcp said:
@Chris Davies: I haven't played ISS PE2 for a long, long while, couldn't say for sure. But for me ISS Pro Evo was in its own league because it was so revolutionary, ISS PE2 just had to build upon it.
Click to expand...
While looking for reviews (to see if there was a gameplay difference between the two), I came across this little article... PEOWW.co.uk: The Rise and Fail of Pro Evo

The guy says PES5 was rubbish and that Seabass was a hack. :SHOCK: Strong words... But there's some food for thought in what he says about PES5 being (paraphrasing) entirely about passing. But still... I feel uncomfortable!!
 
@Chris Davies: Very interesting source there...and a lot to take in. I agree with a lot of what he writes, but overall his assessment of the PS2-era makes little sense to me. These games were lightyears ahead of any kind of competition, and boy was there a lot of competition back then on the football gaming market. PES was truly the benchmark for sports gaming even.

I absolutely disagree with his opinion on PES3. I've played a lot of PES3 these last few months, and even yesterday I played PES2 and I couldn't say with a straight face that PES didn't look, play and feel totally different from PES2. It was also a massive step-up, this coming from a guy who very much appreciates PES2.

On PES4-6: yes those games have flaws, like all mediocre/decent/good/great dribblers being able to turn very fast when on the ball on PES4, the lack of a better attacking AI on PES5...still, these games were on a league of their own at the time, and managed to keep crushing the competition - rightfully so. Overall, they were just much much better than anything else.

The true "fall" of PES began with PES08, due to the horrible PS2-PES3 transition; combined with the fact that EA reinvented FIFA for those then-newgen consoles and took the lead of innovation for the following decade.
 
Chris Davies said:
While looking for reviews (to see if there was a gameplay difference between the two), I came across this little article... PEOWW.co.uk: The Rise and Fail of Pro Evo

The guy says PES5 was rubbish and that Seabass was a hack. :SHOCK: Strong words... But there's some food for thought in what he says about PES5 being (paraphrasing) entirely about passing. But still... I feel uncomfortable!!
Click to expand...
Football games tend to follow real life football meta. PES5 was too ahead of its time with the passing game, back when the football world was yet to switch its metagame to possession football.
 
I've already rebutted the Pes 5 bit in the other topic, but I think that article is a generally rather superficial (to be very kind) take on the saga.

While there are some truths here and there, he's making pass for a bunch of average titles the very crop of Konami's golden age saga (to liquidate Pes 3 with the lines he used should pass as a criminal offense :D).. he also happily underlines Fifa 08 and 09 being better than their counterparts but totally turns a blind eye on the fact that middle 00's Fifas had literally no depth compared with any random Pes (that, as Miguel said above, were already awesome on their own)..
 
Chris Davies said:
While looking for reviews (to see if there was a gameplay difference between the two), I came across this little article... PEOWW.co.uk: The Rise and Fail of Pro Evo

The guy says PES5 was rubbish and that Seabass was a hack. :SHOCK: Strong words... But there's some food for thought in what he says about PES5 being (paraphrasing) entirely about passing. But still... I feel uncomfortable!!
Click to expand...

A few days away, a lot info to catch up. First of all, without knowing much about the credibility of the author, he left me with the impression that no title of PES satisfied him. He hammered almost every title, going back to golden titles of past , that he did not mention. Also for my point of view, when you went to go to a very deep break-down analysis, you cannot ignore details. I.E. commenting on PES 5, that it is difficult to control the ball, it is 50% true. If you totally ignore the function of R2 introduced in PES 5 to receive a pass, then yes it is true, every 3rd pass you have a bad control or a throw in. But if you use the R2 as your second nature, which was extremely fundamental in PES 5, then i can't see ball control being broken. And for me , when you are a famous reviewers, you cannot ignore such details.

As for the rest series, i disagree that PES 1 to 6 was almost the same game with updates. This surprised me , since he separated even PES 6 ps2/pc with Xbox360 version. You could say that the ISS pro evo, ISS pro evo 2, PES and PES 2 for the PS one series, was almost same game with updates, tweaks and the usual KONAMIs add-remove thing, but there is an excuse here, that they were ahead of the next gen (PS2) back then, working from PES2 and ahead on two platforms (ps,ps2) like the ps2 PES 2008-2014 series are all based on the PES6 engine, with some tweaks. But in the next-gen i cannot say that PES 3 and PES 2 are the same game, without changes and or sure PES 1 is not the same with PES 3, there is a huge gap here, in innovation, mechanics etc. Maybe the speed was really nerfed, but other stats like pass accuracy, shot technique were working nice, passing with Pirlo or Sol Cambel was really something different back then, especially compared to today's precise passing from everyone.

The points i agree 100% were, lobs/chip shots being OP in pes4, the bad PES2008-2009, and the part about FIFA regressing after 2001. Here i can say FIFA 2000-2001-2002 were pretty same game with updates, it was the first time that i completely ignored FIFA titles (2001-2002), i felt dumbed as a customer, after some almost decent years of FIFA 98-99-2000. Especially on 2002 i was stuck in the past playing FIFA 2000 and ISS 2000 (N64), until April of 2002 ,when i bought a second hand PSX console and started dipping in the new KONAMI era (PES, ISS pro evo, etc)

Finally i think it is be proved by history (ad hoc) that the series did not lost its fanbase since PES 5, as it is implied the post, but since PES2008, with the simultaneous regress of PES and the rise of FIFA, cause the PES 5/6 series have a core of fans and followers ,playing exclusively them until today. The other excuse is that the article was written back in 2009, so we have an experience advantage, analyzing it now in 2019. So it is not fair to be strict enough.
 
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Chris Davies said:
While looking for reviews (to see if there was a gameplay difference between the two), I came across this little article... PEOWW.co.uk: The Rise and Fail of Pro Evo

The guy says PES5 was rubbish and that Seabass was a hack. :SHOCK: Strong words... But there's some food for thought in what he says about PES5 being (paraphrasing) entirely about passing. But still... I feel uncomfortable!!
Click to expand...

the guy is right about pes 5.
 
miguelfcp said:
New on RSC:
- ISS Pro Evolution - review
- Project Odyssey - the first release
Click to expand...

Well, that was a great pitch on ISS! I've never actually played ISS 1 & 2, which are the forefathers of PS2 PES as we know it. I've gotten a PS Classic last week, i've hacked it and added my own games so i'll certainly give those 2 a try this week and report back!

Chris Davies said:
I came across this little article... PEOWW.co.uk: The Rise and Fail of Pro Evo..
..But still... I feel uncomfortable!!
Click to expand...
Yeah that was a tough read and the PS2 games were by no means perfect (As no game is and never will, especially sports games) but it just sounded like he had an immature vendetta against the games and kind of appears like trolling more then anything. Like Miguelcfp says, to call PES 3 the same game as PES 2 is quite simply about as factually accurate as saying the sky is green. Even from an opinion standpoint i couldn't take it seriously. Also the guys agenda seems to be with presentation, constantly resorting to complaints about the lack of licenses and how visually, they look more or less identical (They actually improved every year in terms of fidelity, face models and environmentally) which again, is an exaggeration.

We've established since the dawn of time that licenses and funny names were a stereotype of ISS/PES so why are you here, buying them year after year which you clearly did to form a wonky opinion on them for a blog?

I don't to sound like only those with exceptionally high IQ's understood and appreciated what PES 5 was trying to accomplish but his thoughts on the game being "Itz harder it sux" pretty much echoed the sentiments a lot of the PES community had back then as the dev teams ambitious and daring attempt at simulation was jarring and i don't think a lot of casual gamers were ready for it. The common complaint was the fouls and referees blowing their whistle every 5 seconds. Nah, you're just shit at tackling. Funny how the lack of pro activeness from the referees in terms of fouls and collisions became the modern complaint with Football games this gen eh?

Though in credit I commend him with doing a bit of research on the devs for ISS/PES. I didn't know Konami had to dev teams working on 2 football teams, i always wondered how we had both PES & ISS on the PS2.

Anyway, up to the Semi Final stage of my World Cup :BOP:

The real Final of the 2002 World Cup comes a stage earlier, It's Semi Final 01 of OUR 2002 World Cup. Current top scorer Rivaldo's Brazil take on the 1990 World Champions Germany.

 
MafiaMurderBag said:
I don't to sound like only those with exceptionally high IQ's understood and appreciated what PES 5 was trying to accomplish but his thoughts on the game being "Itz harder it sux" pretty much echoed the sentiments a lot of the PES community had back then as the dev teams ambitious and daring attempt at simulation was jarring and i don't think a lot of casual gamers were ready for it. The common complaint was the fouls and referees blowing their whistle every 5 seconds. Nah, you're just shit at tackling. Funny how the lack of pro activeness from the referees in terms of fouls and collisions became the modern complaint with Football games this gen eh?
Click to expand...

Exactly and even in that PES5 guide, Seabass mentioned about defenders going up for corners, that because some people had complained about getting caught out on counter attacks they too away defenders going up automatically :ROLL:


Great semi final, won't say anything else so I don't give it away. Which patch is that again?
 
mattmid said:
Exactly and even in that PES5 guide, Seabass mentioned about defenders going up for corners, that because some people had complained about getting caught out on counter attacks they too away defenders going up automatically :ROLL:


Great semi final, won't say anything else so I don't give it away. Which patch is that again?
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Yeah they do! It wasn't until much later you could literally instruct 3 specific players in the formation screen to go up for corners but yes, PES 5 was so far ahead of it's time mechanic & nuance wise I just shake my head when people used to say that it was shit, that PES 4 was better and that the fouls were broken. This was the most contextual football game there was at the time and still to this day, timing and your players body positioning greatly influenced the outcome of shots, passes and fouls.

Thanks for the kind words, The patch is found here; https://www.facebook.com/ShahruddinLahading/
 
miguelfcp said:
@Chris Davies: I haven't played ISS PE2 for a long, long while, couldn't say for sure. But for me ISS Pro Evo was in its own league because it was so revolutionary, ISS PE2 just had to build upon it.
Click to expand...

Yup, miggy, you are correct. ISS Pro Evolution Soccer was the daddy of the series and a real game-changer. ISS PES 2, like ISS 2 and PES 1 on the Playstation 2 were just incremental improvements. But playing even Pro Evolution Soccer now (I did last year) does feel very clunky and dated, even for a PES puritan like me. Individual player attributes and abilities are very hard to spot and shooting is remarkably arcade-like compared to the PES golden era games (2002 - 2007).

But given that it was a 1999 game, it is still amazing. :WORSHIP::WORSHIP::WORSHIP:
 
MafiaMurderBag said:
Well, that was a great pitch on ISS! I've never actually played ISS 1 & 2, which are the forefathers of PS2 PES as we know it. I've gotten a PS Classic last week, i've hacked it and added my own games so i'll certainly give those 2 a try this week and report back!


Yeah that was a tough read and the PS2 games were by no means perfect (As no game is and never will, especially sports games) but it just sounded like he had an immature vendetta against the games and kind of appears like trolling more then anything. Like Miguelcfp says, to call PES 3 the same game as PES 2 is quite simply about as factually accurate as saying the sky is green. Even from an opinion standpoint i couldn't take it seriously. Also the guys agenda seems to be with presentation, constantly resorting to complaints about the lack of licenses and how visually, they look more or less identical (They actually improved every year in terms of fidelity, face models and environmentally) which again, is an exaggeration.

We've established since the dawn of time that licenses and funny names were a stereotype of ISS/PES so why are you here, buying them year after year which you clearly did to form a wonky opinion on them for a blog?

I don't to sound like only those with exceptionally high IQ's understood and appreciated what PES 5 was trying to accomplish but his thoughts on the game being "Itz harder it sux" pretty much echoed the sentiments a lot of the PES community had back then as the dev teams ambitious and daring attempt at simulation was jarring and i don't think a lot of casual gamers were ready for it. The common complaint was the fouls and referees blowing their whistle every 5 seconds. Nah, you're just shit at tackling. Funny how the lack of pro activeness from the referees in terms of fouls and collisions became the modern complaint with Football games this gen eh?

Though in credit I commend him with doing a bit of research on the devs for ISS/PES. I didn't know Konami had to dev teams working on 2 football teams, i always wondered how we had both PES & ISS on the PS2.

Anyway, up to the Semi Final stage of my World Cup :BOP:

The real Final of the 2002 World Cup comes a stage earlier, It's Semi Final 01 of OUR 2002 World Cup. Current top scorer Rivaldo's Brazil take on the 1990 World Champions Germany.

Click to expand...


@MafiaMurderBag , yep, the Konami Tokyo studio (KCET) always developed the Pro Evo series and Konami Osaka (KCEO) developed the ISS games that continued after PES launched in the early 2000s. I owned two of the Playstation 2 era ISS games and they were fun and arcade-type games, the players sprinted about the pitch like racehorses and the ball moved like one of those really light and cheap footballs you could buy in a car garage years ago and would burst if your cat scratched them. In other words, Diet-PES, but they sold well as the Konami name was golden back in the early 2000s and as @miguelfcp mentioned, there were tonnes of different (mostly awful) football game series competing with FIFA and PES back then and Konami were just cashing in.

Pele was called Palm as I recall in those games. :THINK::THINK::THINK:
 
WhoAteMeDinner said:
@MafiaMurderBag , yep, the Konami Tokyo studio (KCET) always developed the Pro Evo series and Konami Osaka (KCEO) developed the ISS games that continued after PES launched in the early 2000s. I owned two of the Playstation 2 era ISS games and they were fun and arcade-type games, the players sprinted about the pitch like racehorses and the ball moved like one of those really light and cheap footballs you could buy in a car garage years ago and would burst if your cat scratched them. In other words, Diet-PES, but they sold well as the Konami name was golden back in the early 2000s and as @miguelfcp mentioned, there were tonnes of different (mostly awful) football game series competing with FIFA and PES back then and Konami were just cashing in.

Pele was called Palm as I recall in those games. :THINK::THINK::THINK:
Click to expand...
There was something about those ISS games, though - I always wondered if a collaboration would have been good. Players moved around much more freely - even though that meant there were too many variables for the AI to cope with it really and it couldn't produce realistic football.

It was clearly a worse game, but it had novel ideas. The first PS2 version really shook me because, after the DualShock 2 was released (with fully-analogue buttons), the controls were all pressure-sensitive.

I'll never forget the feeling of trying to get the pressure right to hit a decent shot, without just swinging at it and smashing the ball into the stands (and I seem to remember it would differ depending on the player's ability). I still think it's a great idea - but DualShock buttons aren't analogue any more...

Does anyone else remember that? Looking up reviews etc. nobody talks about it, yet it seems absolutely revolutionary to me!
 
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WhoAteMeDinner said:
the ball moved like one of those really light and cheap footballs you could buy in a car garage years ago and would burst if your cat scratched them.
Click to expand...

Ah, I remember them :) Doing Banana shots on them by hitting it with the outside of your foot and it would go this way and that in the slightest breeze!


Only Konami could have the idea to produce two different football games. Shame as now they can't even make one properly!
 
@MafiaMurderBag: Thanks man, you definitely have to try ISS Pro Evo. Blows my mind how this game is always able to provide a fantastic experience, and still does 20 years after its release...

Another thing that makes the PS2-PES era so great is that you have a title for any "brand" of football you prefer playing. Want more fast-paced action, borderline arcade at times? PES4. Want a more grounded, scrappy experience? PES5. Want a game which balances fun and realism like few ever achieved? PES3. And this is just 3 years of gaming releases, how amazing is that?

About PES5, we can only dream what it'd have been if Konami decided to build upon that game. PES5 is the demo of the football game we never got: it has the foundations for a legendary, one-of-a-kind sports game, but things like the referee logic when reacting to the - quite active - fouling game and the CPU attacking AI brought it "down to earth".

And as always, great video, the commentary is superb! Now, USA to win the tournament? I'm betting on the dark horse...

@WhoAteMeDinner: I don't think I've ever played Pro Evo Soccer, the oldest PS2 PES game I have is PES2. How would you say it compares to PES2?
(by the way, long time no see man, hope you're doing fine!)

@Chris Davies: I did a review of ISS3 on RSC. Back when I was sampling it to write about the game, I remember posting a few videos here on the Corner showing the long pass player animations, which absolutely blew me away. It looks goddamn real. Shooting, particularly long-rangers, just feels so amazing. But overall...it's miles behind what PES used to offer.
 
miguelfcp said:
@MafiaMurderBag: Thanks man, you definitely have to try ISS Pro Evo. Blows my mind how this game is always able to provide a fantastic experience, and still does 20 years after its release...
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I started a ISS PE2 Master League last night - that's four career modes I've got on-the-go now (ISS PE2, PES 2017, PES 2018 and FIFA 19) plus one World Cup (WE9LE)...

But it's the only PES game where I feel like it's "right" to play as the old-school ML squad (Valeny, Ximilez, Minanda, Castolo etc.)... and where it still feels great to do so.

It's a culture shock, going back to eight directions, and shots going wide because the attributes say so (with eight directions you really can't aim properly)... But at the same time, really having to keep possession because of how dangerous it is to pass to anyone who's marked is a wonderful feeling to this day.

Weirdly, playing PES5 afterwards (okay, maybe I've got five career modes on-the-go), it feels a little more "unfair" (with more passes going astray) and not quite as exciting. But I don't know if that's just because the PS1 is more retro-cool and maybe I'm being a little biased because it was my first true love.

But to this day it's absolutely tons of fun. Purely from a "fun" perspective, it's barely aged, just like the other true classic video-games (like SWOS for example).
 
@miguelfcp That's it, i'm copying to my Playstation Classic as we speak, i'll play tonight and report back in the morning!

@Chris Davies Sounds to me, and i know you said it may be because you have a soft spot for the game, but it may because you're thinking just like how i mentioned the other day... It's a game that's built with it's limitations in mind so it's actually crafted with TLC for the best experience it can be capable of rather then games that are made with near limitless technology like today but rely to much on visual fidelity to distract you from the fact a games mechanics aren't the greatest.

I have a massive bias towards PS2 Wrestling games for the same reason.
 
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