The Retro-PES Corner

Great reading in all of the above.
Modern day iterations just don't have the character of the older games.
Anyone have a PES 5/WE9 download link?
Looking to play pure vanilla non patched gameplay with players of that era.
Thanks
 
I'm currently having so much fun with WE10. It is maybe too fast and goalkeepers can occasionally make some bad mistakes, but the game is otherwise fantastic IMO. A bridge between pes5 and pes6, retaining some of the best features from both.
 
I've been playing Tiki Taka Soccer a lot recently which was recommended on here. It's like PES and SWOS had a baby.
 
martyl2 said:
Great reading in all of the above.
Modern day iterations just don't have the character of the older games.
Anyone have a PES 5/WE9 download link?
Looking to play pure vanilla non patched gameplay with players of that era.
Thanks
Click to expand...

Check out this link below for clean installs of vanilla PES 5 & 6.
https://www.evo-web.co.uk/threads/p...installers-by-sany.67651/page-31#post-3261226

Here's a link for WE9
https://www.evo-web.co.uk/threads/p...installers-by-sany.67651/page-43#post-3296847

And here's one for the great WE9:Liveware Evolution
https://www.evo-web.co.uk/threads/p...installers-by-sany.67651/page-42#post-3286461

Found this video trending and found it slightly relevant to Retro PES as it takes place in the iconic PES institution, The Sapporo Dome.. A new signing scores a goal, tries to be flash and jumps the advertising hoardings but didn't bother taking a small tour of the ground before he starts playing for them and finds out the hard way there's a 10 foot drop!

I find it funny that it's a bookable offence to remove your shirt when celebrating even though it's literally harmless but it's not a bookable offence to leave the field of play when the variables to increase the chance of injury to yourself or spectators arguably increases.


And finally, The second Quarter Final sees in form Germany take on underdogs Belgium in Ulsan for a spot against '94 Champions Brazil in the Semi's. Can "The Red Devils" hold their nerve against "Die Mannschaft"?

 
MafiaMurderBag said:
Check out this link below for clean installs of vanilla PES 5 & 6.
https://www.evo-web.co.uk/threads/p...installers-by-sany.67651/page-31#post-3261226

Here's a link for WE9
https://www.evo-web.co.uk/threads/p...installers-by-sany.67651/page-43#post-3296847

And here's one for the great WE9:Liveware Evolution
https://www.evo-web.co.uk/threads/p...installers-by-sany.67651/page-42#post-3286461

Found this video trending and found it slightly relevant to Retro PES as it takes place in the iconic PES institution, The Sapporo Dome.. A new signing scores a goal, tries to be flash and jumps the advertising hoardings but didn't bother taking a small tour of the ground before he starts playing for them and finds out the hard way there's a 10 foot drop!

I find it funny that it's a bookable offence to remove your shirt when celebrating even though it's literally harmless but it's not a bookable offence to leave the field of play when the variables to increase the chance of injury to yourself or spectators arguably increases.


And finally, The second Quarter Final sees in form Germany take on underdogs Belgium in Ulsan for a spot against '94 Champions Brazil in the Semi's. Can "The Red Devils" hold their nerve against "Die Mannschaft"?

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Yes dude it is bookable ,because when you celebrate a goal and the camera focuses on you, it is the best chance for the sponsor logo on the kit to get the spotlight. The marketing think -tanks have calculated everything!
 
MafiaMurderBag said:
Check out this link below for clean installs of vanilla PES 5 & 6.
https://www.evo-web.co.uk/threads/p...installers-by-sany.67651/page-31#post-3261226

Here's a link for WE9
https://www.evo-web.co.uk/threads/p...installers-by-sany.67651/page-43#post-3296847

And here's one for the great WE9:Liveware Evolution
https://www.evo-web.co.uk/threads/p...installers-by-sany.67651/page-42#post-3286461

Found this video trending and found it slightly relevant to Retro PES as it takes place in the iconic PES institution, The Sapporo Dome.. A new signing scores a goal, tries to be flash and jumps the advertising hoardings but didn't bother taking a small tour of the ground before he starts playing for them and finds out the hard way there's a 10 foot drop!

I find it funny that it's a bookable offence to remove your shirt when celebrating even though it's literally harmless but it's not a bookable offence to leave the field of play when the variables to increase the chance of injury to yourself or spectators arguably increases.


And finally, The second Quarter Final sees in form Germany take on underdogs Belgium in Ulsan for a spot against '94 Champions Brazil in the Semi's. Can "The Red Devils" hold their nerve against "Die Mannschaft"?

Click to expand...

Thanks man, much appreciated. Retro PES is alive and well in 2019 because of forums like this.
Sub'd to your channel. Keep up the great content
 
Subbed to you @MafiaMurderBag, although I prefer the normal/slightly slanted wide camera than your settings.

Have been playing WE8AC and JLWE2007 with the Classicos patch. What great games they are, fun with enough "realism". I think that the problem of today's sport games is that they try too hard to be simulators but ironically ended up nowhere near realistic representation of sports (looking at you FIFA).
 
Occasionally I'll read a post here that talks about PES 2008 being the worst PES - but I've been surfing around YouTube this morning and found a few people playing the Master League and it looks pretty good, like a slower-paced PES6!


Is it really terrible? What are your experiences with PES 2008?

Oh, also - was it the same gameplay on PC as PS3/360?
 
@martyl2 & @du0 Thanks for the kind words & support guys.

@Chris Davies Ah PES 2008. Yeah it's the first "next gen" port of PES on PC, it's the same as it's PS3 & 360 counterparts. It's not terrible, I think the criticism of it is more out of resentment of it's standing in Football gaming at it's time of release. EA laid the foundations with FIFA 07 & 08 to modernize footy games mechanically and control wise whereas Konami hadn't evolved at all and it was essentially the same formula as the PS2 games.

It's essentially PES 6 in HD, which in fact is based off of the Xbox 360 version of PES 6 which was a bit of a less sophisticated version of the PS2 version, but the principals are still there.

In my opinion, it's an interesting stage in PES's PS3 era development where they experimented more with the visuals and aesthetics with the now available technology, they stripped back alot of features, particularly in Edit mode which is also another area of resentment for fans and was, similarly to PES 2014, one of the first instances of Konami's trend of regression in features in the series and was the first time we had budget menu's and they started this weird transition from the familiar Jazz Funk influence soundtrack to this awful cheese punk with horrible lyrics.

As we've covered with the PS2 version of PES 2008 which funnily enough is vastly superior, had they ported that version to PC, it would certainly have replaced PES 6 in the community's standing as the definitive legacy title and modders choice.
 
@Chris Davies Yes like @MafiaMurderBag says apparently the PS version is very good. The PC version however was the biggest disappointment after PES6. I even gave it a try again recently, after some on here had said how good the PS version was, in the hope that I'd misjudged it at the time. I managed one match before turning it off.
 
It didn't help that FIFA made a fantastic transition from PS2 to the PS3. Having been used to the gameplay of the PS2-era FIFAs, trying out FIFA08 on the PS3 for the first time was one of the most positively shocking footballing experiences I've ever had. Going back to PES08 after trying out FIFA08 was like playing PS2-FIFA after spending time with PS2-PES: too much of a downgrade.
 
miguelfcp said:
Having been used to the gameplay of the PS2-era FIFAs, trying out FIFA08 on the PS3 for the first time was one of the most positively shocking footballing experiences I've ever had.
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I've said this before I know, but that's the thing I've been waiting for ever since - another genuinely shocking moment in football gaming, where it's immediately clear that the ball is a separate entity (it still isn't in either football game, and it's blatantly obvious that "magnets" are still in use) or similar. But FIFA 08 was my last "OMG" moment.

I was 24 then, so it's not like I was an easily-impressed kid going from one game to another. As an adult, I was absolutely blown away by what the future held. I didn't even like the game a great deal (because of the AI and in-game "magnets"), but playing around in the arena was the closest I think I've ever felt to playing football in a virtual space - I remember playing the demo after getting back from playing football at a local park and thinking "this is like some kind of virtual mirror, this feels like I'm back at the park, holy hell".

In terms of those "OMG" moments... The PS1 had ISS Pro Evo (1999) - the PS2 had PES5 (2005) - the PS3 had FIFA 08 (2007) - what has the PS4 had?

Even the best games since these milestone moments were on the previous generation of consoles! You could argue that the FIFA World Cup 2010 / PES 2013 was good, that PES 2014 was an attempt at realism (that they immediately went back on for 2015), that FIFA 16 was a good all-rounder, but none of those compare to the previous milestones I mention, and all of them are of the PS3 generation anyway.

So what is the PS4's best football-gaming moment? I think looking back, it will be the introduction of Frostbite to FIFA - because it makes stadium atmospheres absolutely electric. And, arguably, has wrecked the gameplay, by making it more fast-paced and silly than ever (by default - but none of those milestone games needed sliders).

So I've been waiting since 2007 for the next "OMG" moment - 11 release years so far - and the biggest advancement made is probably in their graphics.

Is that all we can expect from now on? Will the PS5 generation be the same?

I need to know if these PES 2020 Unreal-engine rumours are true. If they're starting again, then I can get excited again. All of those milestones came about from fresh starts...
 
@Chris Davies: The introduction of the arena had such an impact that I fondly remember me and my friends playing FIFA08 for whole afternoons: but we never even left the arena. We just sat there in front of the TV, we'd talk, take turns controlling Ronaldinho...and that was that. I can say for sure we spent more time on the arena than playing actual multiplayer matches.

I don't think it's a coincidence that those "Aha!" moments you're stating have ceased to exist just before the introduction of FIFA's Ultimate Team, and a bit later, myClub on PES. While a game like ISS Pro Evo had to conquer an audience using just the innate quality of the actual game, nowadays you can make much more money by selling a platform that pleases 15-year-old Youtubers, e-sports players, and myclubbers. There's no room for any revolution because that's too much of a risk to take, and you don't want to lose your audience; and also there's no incentive for developers to do that because the cash cows of microtransaction-fueled game modes allow them to just sit back, relax and wait for the money to fall on their lap, which it does. They don't need to reinvent the wheel because it's working just fine for them as it currently is.
 
@Chris Davies I agree, That while the games have looked remarkably realistic and they've improved a lot of things, apart from the technology, there's been nothing groundbreaking or game changing about them. It's going to be harder and harder for Football games to be revolutionary until it's literally indistinguishable from the real thing, and that will never happen nor would i want it to.

@miguelfcp Your dead right. The truth is that, gaming & development culture has changed so much now especially in regards to anything multiplayer or accessible which sports games fall under is that it's similar to music, it's all about marketing and less about the substance or the critical quality. The latter part is still important on some small level as if it was a complete abomination, nobody would purchase it. But it's about instant gratification now, it's such fast moving world in terms of the way we consume content that they're constantly thinking about consumers moving onto the next thing and the next thing. That's what developers have to worry about, and with the advent of online gaming it's more competitive than ever aas well as being where all your money is made.

Instant gratification. Doesn't matter if the game is deep and rewarding liek PES 5, nobody has the time to master that, they'll get bored and move onto something easier that makes them feel like a master with minimum effort. The skill gap is gone, and with that you get vacant gameplay that immature customers don't question or appreciate either way. That's why these games are on PA3 on default and why they let every player have the potential to play like Neymar. It's the nature of the beast now. Do Devs wanna have integrity or make money?
 
MafiaMurderBag said:
It's going to be harder and harder for Football games to be revolutionary until it's literally indistinguishable from the real thing, and that will never happen nor would i want it to.
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I definitely want it to, personally!

For me, this video shows what would be my next "wow" moment. Not because of the graphics, but the clear "not the same animation twice" nature of movement visible even from kick-off. Every player moving like a human, having an individual mind, not perfectly connected to the other players by invisible rods like a less-crude game of table-football. Completely organic, from ball to player.

PLEASE NOTE, THIS IS A FAKE VIDEO - IT'S A VIRTUAL FOOTBALL MATCH VIDEO RENDERED BY A BETTING COMPANY THAT SOMEONE HAS STUCK A "PES 2020" LOGO ON! But my point still stands that, even from just seeing a video of it, this would blow my socks off:

 
@MafiaMurderBag: There it is. I don't want to crap all over your dreams @Chris Davies, but with this culture that also has transformed football games in mass consumption products, you can't have a too complex of a football game. I've rambled a lot over the years about things like poor tactical behaviors of the AI on PES, but the truth is the common player these days can't care less whether the AI builds a realistic pressure zone as a reaction after losing the ball. The product has therefore to be dumbed down to please that wider audience. If you're going to introduce complex stuff like a free-er ball and a more realistic player-ball contact system, the modern audience would absolutely sh*t their pants. Suddenly you could have matches with dozens of fouls for each side, sometimes ending in a scrappy, tough but realistic 0-0 a-la-PES5. Twitter would crash, youtubers would overreact an overreaction and glitch their systems, the stock market would plunge, CNN would report on the effects of hyperrealistic gaming on the young, impressionable minds of the players, and weeks later gaming would be banned.

And yes Mafia, those devs chose the road of money a long time ago. They had an opportunity to create a positive online gaming environment when online gaming was gaining traction, and were in a good position to educate their audience on what is supposed to be an honest, realistic and challenging football experience and build from there; but they took the easier path and fast forward to 2019, the supposedly best e-sports pro players play assisted and any e-sports competition plays like a hockey game instead of a football simulation.
 
Ah ! The betting company vid making rounds again at this time of the year.

I agree with Chris. I think PES and FIFA both are so tied closely to codes that ball physics, player movements, goals, virtually everything is written in the script (coding). Although, all things are code, i dont get the physics part, mainly ball. There are amazing crash simulators rendering real time physics producing different outcome (n) number of times, heck ! even Rockstar's euphoria engine (which produces different stumble animation for characters) can be a game of its own yet, we have yearly franchise/cash cows that are based on foundations built 10/20 years ago, a stringent mechanics that is blatantly forced and obvious in its gameplay, so much so that it has gone backwards in order to cater to casual crowd.
 
Chris Davies said:
I definitely want it to, personally!

For me, this video shows what would be my next "wow" moment. Not because of the graphics, but the clear "not the same animation twice" nature of movement visible even from kick-off. Every player moving like a human, having an individual mind, not perfectly connected to the other players by invisible rods like a less-crude game of table-football. Completely organic, from ball to player.

PLEASE NOTE, THIS IS A FAKE VIDEO - IT'S A VIRTUAL FOOTBALL MATCH VIDEO RENDERED BY A BETTING COMPANY THAT SOMEONE HAS STUCK A "PES 2020" LOGO ON! But my point still stands that, even from just seeing a video of it, this would blow my socks off:

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When I first saw that I was convinced it was real. I knew it wasn't PES but I still thought it was a recording.
 
@Chilleverest Yeah and the thing is, in the pes5 guide, Seabass mentions the real-time physics engine they had in the game. How did they get to where they are now? I don't underestimate for a minute how hard the AI must be to code but surely if players stats were important like they used to be that would lend itself to producing a better game instead of the dumbing down of it. Bit like TV I suppose, feed the masses a pile of reality crap and awful phone in voting talent(?) shows and somewhere in amongst the fetid mess you'll find a series well worth watching.

Unfortunately I don't see where a new football game would come from. It still seems ridiculous to me that the world's two playable football games are made in Canada and Japan, two football hotbeds if ever there were. Surely some company in Europe or South America could come up with a football game.
 
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miguelfcp said:
but with this culture that also has transformed football games in mass consumption products, you can't have a too complex of a football game.
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Is it? I find today's football games insanely complex. Just look at FIFA and its timed shooting for example, what the hell is that? It isn't realistic, it is complex - why do I have to play another minigame when I shoot the ball, and it doesn't give you the satisfaction of striking a ball cleanly without anyone touching you like in PS2 era PES games.
 
miguelfcp said:
@MafiaMurderBag: There it is. I don't want to crap all over your dreams @Chris Davies, but with this culture that also has transformed football games in mass consumption products, you can't have a too complex of a football game. I've rambled a lot over the years about things like poor tactical behaviors of the AI on PES, but the truth is the common player these days can't care less whether the AI builds a realistic pressure zone as a reaction after losing the ball. The product has therefore to be dumbed down to please that wider audience. If you're going to introduce complex stuff like a free-er ball and a more realistic player-ball contact system, the modern audience would absolutely sh*t their pants. Suddenly you could have matches with dozens of fouls for each side, sometimes ending in a scrappy, tough but realistic 0-0 a-la-PES5. Twitter would crash, youtubers would overreact an overreaction and glitch their systems, the stock market would plunge, CNN would report on the effects of hyperrealistic gaming on the young, impressionable minds of the players, and weeks later gaming would be banned.

And yes Mafia, those devs chose the road of money a long time ago. They had an opportunity to create a positive online gaming environment when online gaming was gaining traction, and were in a good position to educate their audience on what is supposed to be an honest, realistic and challenging football experience and build from there; but they took the easier path and fast forward to 2019, the supposedly best e-sports pro players play assisted and any e-sports competition plays like a hockey game instead of a football simulation.
Click to expand...

For me the milestone for modern e-sports, microtransactions games, basically THE DEATH OF GAMES AS WE LOVED THEM, ( i wonder how the developers have not come to this already) will be when they implement the real gambling by letting you bet to MC/FUT games of other players, placing as a bet your in-game currency PES GP, Fifa points, PES/FIFA coins. Then the "real game" will begin!!! :P :P
 
slamsoze said:
For me the milestone for modern e-sports, microtransactions games, basically THE DEATH OF GAMES AS WE LOVED THEM, ( i wonder how the developers have not come to this already) will be when they implement the real gambling by letting you bet to MC/FUT games of other players, placing as a bet your in-game currency PES GP, Fifa points, PES/FIFA coins. Then the "real game" will begin!!! :P :P
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Man.. that's a monstrousity :BLINK:.. I could totally see them going for it with the current trend!
 
@slamsoze: Shhh don't give them ideas! :D It'd be a case of those modes eating themselves up with gluttony.

@du0: I don't play either of the modern football games but I've seen a few matches of e-sports competitions and goddamn it, it doesn't look like football. Ping-pong counter-attack-meets-counter-attack fast-paced crap. If you introduce the (realistic) necessity of doing things like slowing down the pace of the play to think what you're going to do with the ball next, or realistic AI defensive behaviours, the matches would lose this pace and only the most educated/evolved football minds would have a chance to win; unlike now where it seems to be more of a matter of becoming good at exploiting the mechanics of the game itself, which even the youngest of players are able to do.
 
Ah the memories... PES6 and the World Cup 2010 South Africa mod. Lovely.

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PES5 / WE9 was waaaayyyy better game though. I had all World Cup Italy 1990 stadiums (here's Delle Alpi).

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miguelfcp said:
@du0: I don't play either of the modern football games but I've seen a few matches of e-sports competitions and goddamn it, it doesn't look like football. Ping-pong counter-attack-meets-counter-attack fast-paced crap. If you introduce the (realistic) necessity of doing things like slowing down the pace of the play to think what you're going to do with the ball next, or realistic AI defensive behaviours, the matches would lose this pace and only the most educated/evolved football minds would have a chance to win; unlike now where it seems to be more of a matter of becoming good at exploiting the mechanics of the game itself, which even the youngest of players are able to do.
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It is ping pong and mechanics exploitation. FIFA likes to brand itself as realistic and esports-ready, yet it is scripted to the tits - no realistic football matches have players constantly hitting the post unless the players are fixing games. Another way FIFA "realism" hinders play is the referee constantly getting in the way of passes and players. PES perfected referee getting out of the way since what, PES 2, and EA couldn't do it.

FIFA is so reliant on skill moves it's unrealistic. You don't ever see players showboating like in FIFA ever (unless it's Neymar) or have to pull tricks to get pass defenses even with superior physique.
 
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miguelfcp said:
@slamsoze: Shhh don't give them ideas! :D It'd be a case of those modes eating themselves up with gluttony.

@du0: I don't play either of the modern football games but I've seen a few matches of e-sports competitions and goddamn it, it doesn't look like football. Ping-pong counter-attack-meets-counter-attack fast-paced crap. If you introduce the (realistic) necessity of doing things like slowing down the pace of the play to think what you're going to do with the ball next, or realistic AI defensive behaviours, the matches would lose this pace and only the most educated/evolved football minds would have a chance to win; unlike now where it seems to be more of a matter of becoming good at exploiting the mechanics of the game itself, which even the youngest of players are able to do.
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Well unfortunately i have played both online, mostly because i wanted to give it a chance and see if really was missing out on this magical online experience with modern football games and it really wasn't worth the drastic increase in blood pressure and stress. And i'm no old man shaking fist at clouds kinda guy but the direction that online gaming has gone in has just toxified gaming communities online.

I miss playing PES 6 online and chatting to strangers over the headset about current football affairs and actually having decent matches because the game was fucking good and wasn't exploitable to the point where you could play it with your eyes shut. Nowadays (most of) the gamers are just poisonous and pathetic. Not only do they exploit these bad game engines by scoring goals straight from kick off and the old FIFA favorite, spamming lofted through balls... Now they have this shameless ethic of winning at all costs. Scoring that aforementioned shitty goal and then time waste for the entirety of the game & employing scumbag tactics to piss off their opponent and goad them into quitting. Ping ponging it around their back line for 80 mins and you stand no chance of intercepting because their on PA3 and the game isn't balanced to punish shit heads for playing like this.

There's literally no sportsmanship or courtesy no more. Winning online and climbing the rankings gains you nothing in the real world, doesn't improve your life in anyway yet people treat what should be a leisurely distraction like a "dog eat dog" battle for survival. It's pathetic, It's ruined online gaming and just leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

I come away from an online game now just stressed and in a bad mood and more importantly, being an adult; feeling like I've wasted valuable time and this is the direction it's all going in. There's this profound sense of offline shaming on social media and on most gaming forums (usually less sophisticated ones albeit) and most communities and publishers want to make you feel like a dinosaur if you "don't get" online gaming but really they just want you to pump money into it like some vapid cow getting milked by a robot.

I'm not the best PES player in the world, whatever that's supposed to mean i guess but, I'm pretty decent at Football games, i understand how to play them and play them tastefully... I'm decent on PES 2019 too even on manual against the bullshit cheating AI but last time i played online and i really tried to give it a go, I lost 9 games in a row. Fucking NINE GAMES IN A ROW - No draws or dramatic defeats, most of those i didn't even score in.

And thats because this "new" game doesn't respect the fact, that you respect football and want to recreate it faithfully. It may as well be the football version of Street Fighter V and any idiot can mash buttons and recreate the Daigo Parry.
 
@du0: That doesn't sound attractive at all...I mean, the gameplay looks disappointing, I imagine actually playing it...football games are really stagnant when it comes to their gameplay evolution. It's in clear need of a shake-up, a revolution to prompt it forward. But can you simultaneously evolve your platform while appeasing the masses? Can a musician produce more evolved, complex music and still please the masses who are satisfied and accostumed to the same-old 4-chord song structure? That is the big question here. Either you want to create the best product your intellect is able to produce, and convince people that it has merit; or you go the modern-football-game route and give the people what they want, catering to their whims.

This is why I've said it here that games are not games anymore, they're providing a service instead and you're the customer. And when art/culture becomes a service...this can't end well.

@MafiaMurderBag: It's becoming a theme, but once again I absolutely agree with your whole post.

The creation of those hypercompetitive worlds like UT/myclub, in retrospective, were the worst that could've happened not just to football gaming, but sports gaming as a whole. While the logic of the mode itself, in theory, is quite attractive (though not at all attractive enough to have turned into the undisputedly most important game mode on any sports game...), it should've never have built a market in which real money is utilized. Don't mix up things: real-life is real-life, the virtual world is a virtual world. A fake one. And while developers obviously have a lot to gain from this toxic system, he who gets f*cked is the player, who's lured in to a world where he never wins anything palpable, he just loses times and money (and sometimes, health...).

So that toxic online enviornment that you speak of is the only possible outcome of this. Devs have sold the players this idea of a fake world and got them invested in competing as people compete in real life: the game then becomes less than a distraction used for one to enjoy himself and have others jump in and have fun as well, and it is now just a platform for people to climb that damned - and virtual - ladder. You're my next online opponent? Well, at the end of the day, you'll be just a number on my win-draw-lose sheet. Dehumanizing.

I've said it on RSC, and stand by this: this nonsense will only end when people realize that it's only a goddamn videogame, nothing more. It's not one's reputation, or even one's life that's on the line when a game is played - it's only a game. If you're not having fun, turn it off and go play Monopoly or something, goddamn it. Tetris. I don't know, something else.

Yes, you're right, these days one is not part of the cool kids gang if he doesn't play online. This mentality is present in the world of PES as well, as devs and Konami PR people (the latter are shockingly bad at their job) try to put fans up against each other with the so-called offline "elitists" against the online, cool people. What they don't get is that the vast majority of the offliners could very easily become online players as well, but they currently not only dislike, but hate online with a passion because of what online gaming has done to football gaming and, particularly, PES itself as a game.
Personally, and theoretically, I find online gaming a limitless world of opportunity for developers. It's just that they chose to build their online worlds which reward the worst of behaviours and attitudes a football player could have.
 
Anybody knew about Football Kingdom? It's a Japan exclusive football game from Namco around WE6/7 time. From what I've seen on YouTube it looked way better than any football games back then.

 
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