The "Not happy with PES 2012" thread

[Flaw3d Genius]

No it doesnt, which is exactly my point.

Isn't it strange how some people have a problem, and others dont. Hmmmmmmmmm.

C'mon even the biggest fanboys on the planet over at WENB are complaining about the shooting and are mad that nothing is being done about it in the forthcoming patch.

Something is severely wrong if those guys are moaning.

 

[pj_puttz]

Agreed. I'll go in there when i want to save something positive about the game. Jimmy should deal with the fact that certain people don't have the same overwhelming positive response to the game that he does. As puttz said if he or anybody went into that forum to vehemently protest how you were all wrong about something we'd be condemned. I don't see how you coming here and doing that is much different really.

I actually quite like debate and i don't think we should separate the two threads really because it's counter to that but it's clear that the reason we have to is that some people are far too unwilling to see the concerns of others and then rather than come to any kind of conclusion and people just argue and the forum descends into a less than friendly place.

I think Jimmy makes some good points from time to time but what i find annoying is that he is by far the least willing person on this forum to concede somebody else might make a good point if in someway it would affect his own.

I've seen other forums and they mostly end up as childish arguments with people calling each other names and insulting each other simply because they have a different point of view but this thread has been mostly filled with intelligent, articulate observations about the flaws in PES 2012. It's been refreshing to discuss the game with mature people who seem to genuinely care about PES and are concerned about the direction it's heading.

I dont mind a bit of a laugh with an imaginative jibe here and there but calling someone a "bellend" simply because you disagree with them is ridiculous and just plain lazy.

 

[ftgpete]

pj_puttz, your just clearly crap at the game. I thought E.T The Extra Terrestrial game was awful as I couldn't find the missing phones while the agents tried to rape me when I fell down the holes. But this is clearly not bad game design but just because I was a complete noob at the game and was way to quick to judge it.


Sarcasm aside, shooting is a little inconsistent but I havn't had the some massive inconsistencies as some people have had. What I hate about shooting is that I get no power and the ball is so light and floaty. Every PES I've played when I score a goal, I do a little fist pump and I'm like 'Yeah get in there' but that satisfaction is completely gone in PES 2012.

 

[Northzzz]

Speaking about floaty ball physics. Chipped through balls are basically a no-go for me now. They seem to hang in the air for so long. I just use long ball now when i want to get somebody on the end of it.

 

[arthurm]

I think Jimmy's failing is that he doesn't understand how AI and computer programs work. PES is a computer program, not real football. I'm a professional programmer and understand exactly the methods used in AI and can recognise "cheats" when I see them. You certainly don't have to be a programmer to recognise the cheats, as many of them are as clear as day. But as I understand the programming methods used to create the so called "cheats", nobody is going to tell me that I'm imagining them.

To suggest that the reason someone feels cheated is because they don't understand football is laughable. It would be far more accurate to suggest that if you don't understand programming, you quite possibly won't understand how a program can cheat.

Ignorance is bliss, as they say.

Jimmy, I enjoy reading your posts in the Football Life thread. I can appreciate your passion for PES and wish I could see past the cheats to find some level of immersion and enjoyment.

 

[Bailzebub]

Hilarious on so many levels.

Tell you what, do you know why those top Street Fighter players are so good at the game? Because they feel motivated to get good. Why? Because the game is good and they don't feel cheated whenever they play, they realize that it's their lack of skill hampering them, not poor game design. It's the complete opposite with PES.

This post really strikes a chord with me.

Something's happened to PES now that has "relegated it" (ho ho) to a title i leave at my friends house and have no desire to delve into online nor in single player.

Years ago, i held PES up there with my favourite titles in the fighting game genre. Hell in a way PES actually played out like a fighting game did when two decent players went at it, matches could vary as much as the classic shoto match-up or a cagey scrap between Balrog and Guile. Rushdown, exciting affairs or closely fought turtle/defensive fests.

-

For whatever reason though nowadays i have no desire to improve on PES whereas come SSFIV AE2012, the forth iteration of the SFIV series, i'll delve right in and play around with the balance changes and tweaks.

I actually want to learn my option selects with Zangief or how to keep piling on the pressure with Rose because when i have a good fight, win or lose, it'll be satisfying.

Somewhere i've lost that same feeling when playing PES. Which is strange because both games play out in a very similar manner, and have the same philosophy when it comes to "updates".

 

[Jamezinho]

It's the fabled 'one more go' factor. PES doesn't have it any more, and hasn't done since PES5. Well, for me anyway. I feel as though I really should put time into PES but I think that's force of habit rather than wanting to play the game on merit. PES doesn't stand out to me any more, hence why I've not touched it in about three weeks. On the PS1 & PS2 it used to be my stand out game, living in the disc tray even when I had new games to play.

The game used to urge me to keep playing to become a better player and the reward was a varied gameplay experience full of character. Just when you thought you'd turned the corner the game would kick you down again. It put the player in constant pursuit for improvement, which is how real football is.

These days the game feels one dimensional, characterless, preordained. I think this is a critical year for Konami, possibly the last roll of the dice before PES is confirmed as a niche title. Good grace is fast running out for PES, even from long-standing supporters.

 

[Ektor70]

Finally a place where i read some of my concerns about the game. My 2 cents as a lifetime pes player (i am from italy):

Presentation and Visuals:
Embarassing, pes 2011 was good...what did they do? gardeners? blurred visuals? What about lighting? check konami stadium in 2011 and 2012...2012 has some grey grass! night games horrible!

Audio:
not only blurred visuals...blurred audio as well. Commentary and chants as bas as usual.

Gamemodes:
Masterleague is a snore fest with stupid cutscene. On line unplayble. Which leaves only cl and libertadores as my main options (not bad, but without a proper ml and on line the games gets boring)

Gameplay:
Oh my god...for the first time ever in 15 years i see the same goals scored over and over. Ai has 3-4 patterns of goals.

Most annoying things in gameplay:
Offiside: AI has a perfect timing for running 0,00001 cm before the offiside. which result in their forward being in front of the goalie in the same way a million time. Offside trap does not work, when i press it 1 player always stay behind for some reasons.

Every team play the same regardless of formation and result. every AI player can dribble like messi. bad bad bad.

Headers: same animations over and over, 3-4 times a game there is a player jumping and missing an easy goal.

Keepers:
horrible 2 hands animations like children in the park.

Others:
long and boring replays (give us an option to disallow them or bring back the ps2 replays), poor refs, horrible penalty systems with no skills involved.

Mention of disgrace: Cameras.
Wide cameras make the game look like benny hill show, close cameras are unplayble due to the lack of options to zoom in/out, change angles, depth. I used to play broadcast...wtf is with the change in perspective? pathetic.

This is the first time i will be trading the game before christmas.

Konami should just come here, focus on the feedback of 10 people and make a great game. They are just not selling this years, they have lost 4 million customers in the last 3 years and this year they will lose another million.

this game is pathetic quite frankly. Dear jonhn Murphy, stop bullshiting and listening to the likes of wenb and jimmy. Listen to the real fans who can provide some critical and objective feedback on how to go back to the greatness of the ps2 era.

ciao.

 

[jammiedodger]

Finally a place where i read some of my concerns about the game. My 2 cents as a lifetime pes player (i am from italy):

Presentation and Visuals:
Embarassing, pes 2011 was good...what did they do? gardeners? blurred visuals? What about lighting? check konami stadium in 2011 and 2012...2012 has some grey grass! night games horrible!

Audio:
not only blurred visuals...blurred audio as well. Commentary and chants as bas as usual.

Gamemodes:
Masterleague is a snore fest with stupid cutscene. On line unplayble. Which leaves only cl and libertadores as my main options (not bad, but without a proper ml and on line the games gets boring)

Gameplay:
Oh my god...for the first time ever in 15 years i see the same goals scored over and over. Ai has 3-4 patterns of goals.

Most annoying things in gameplay:
Offiside: AI has a perfect timing for running 0,00001 cm before the offiside. which result in their forward being in front of the goalie in the same way a million time. Offside trap does not work, when i press it 1 player always stay behind for some reasons.

Every team play the same regardless of formation and result. every AI player can dribble like messi. bad bad bad.

Headers: same animations over and over, 3-4 times a game there is a player jumping and missing an easy goal.

Keepers:
horrible 2 hands animations like children in the park.

Others:
long and boring replays (give us an option to disallow them or bring back the ps2 replays), poor refs, horrible penalty systems with no skills involved.

Mention of disgrace: Cameras.
Wide cameras make the game look like benny hill show, close cameras are unplayble due to the lack of options to zoom in/out, change angles, depth. I used to play broadcast...wtf is with the change in perspective? pathetic.

This is the first time i will be trading the game before christmas.

Konami should just come here, focus on the feedback of 10 people and make a great game. They are just not selling this years, they have lost 4 million customers in the last 3 years and this year they will lose another million.

this game is pathetic quite frankly. Dear jonhn Murphy, stop bullshiting and listening to the likes of wenb and jimmy. Listen to the real fans who can provide some critical and objective feedback on how to go back to the greatness of the ps2 era.

ciao.

That would be really clever of Konami. Lets listen to the views of ten people out of the thousands that have brought it. That sounds like a winning strategy.

NOT

I agree there are some faults with the game but its nowhere near the ballsup you talk about.

 

[Flaw3d Genius]

this game is pathetic quite frankly. Dear jonhn Murphy, stop bullshiting and listening to the likes of wenb and jimmy. Listen to the real fans who can provide some critical and objective feedback on how to go back to the greatness of the ps2 era.

ciao.

This is the problem, for years now they have only listened to feedback from the guys that loved the game on nxt-gen in the first place, WENB have constantly gave out 8's and 9's so they have always thought the game on nxt gen has been very good, Same with the guys at PESfan...........So if these guys are giving the feedback what hope have we got of getting a good PES game again?

Until Konami start taking feedback from those that dont like the game and want it to be the best game on the market again we will always have an average game that the fanboys adore.

Being realistic Konami need a brand new engine and rather than take feedback from Adam and Alan Curdie they need their own ideas like they done on the Snes, PS1, PS2 sure that will upset those two if they dont manage to get their names in the manual next year but it will end up more likely a better game so the trade off will be well worth it.

 

[Ektor70]

That would be really clever of Konami. Lets listen to the views of ten people out of the thousands that have brought it. That sounds like a winning strategy.

NOT

I agree there are some faults with the game but its nowhere near the ballsup you talk about.

pes 2008 sold 8.4 million global. from the likes of its current trand (the worst ever for konami), pes 2012 will sell 3 million tops, maybe 2.5. (pes 2011 sold 4.3 millions).

It means they have lost 70% of their customers in 4 years time. they have been losing more than 1 million customers every year.

I don't know how konami is run, in a normal compay the guy in charge would kiss his desk goodbye.

The game doesn't look, sound, play and feel like a current gen title. and customers are just buying other stuff.

Listen to wenb and blind fans and they will end up selling less than a million pretty soon.

 

[Bailzebub]

The game seems to have lost some of it's personality too and i don't know where to be exact.

I mean in days gone by in our offline sessions, it mattered when my mates plucky Irish (and other such cliches) took down my Spanish side.

Maybe it was all along, but these iterations feel more "stat based" in how situations occur or introduce a moment of randomness that doesn't gel with the match in the same way those little howlers in previous games did.

-

Contrast this now with another genre that hardly changes it's games: The fighters, which release balance updates nowadays that do little more than alter the properties of single moves. Yet these seemingly innocuous changes can breath fresh air into your gameplay.

The easiest example for non fighting fans would be Ryu and Ken from the iconic SF franchise. Initially clone characters, now Ryu plays considerably more measured and "zones" opponents now, whereas to be effective with Ken you have to play aggressively and rush-down.

-

I bring fighters into PES discussion because i mentioned before, originally the gameplay in both PES and fighting games felt as tight and crisp, both games are good at rewarding player skill as opposed to relying on randomness; Although oft cried about by clueless players for example, "cheap" play or button mashing cannot work once you have an understanding of the game mechanics.

Again i find it strange that the two games i know that share the same philosophies when it comes to updating and improving on them have somewhere drifted apart.

 

[RAMAXWY]

This is the problem, for years now they have only listened to feedback from the guys that loved the game on nxt-gen in the first place, WENB have constantly gave out 8's and 9's so they have always thought the game on nxt gen has been very good, Same with the guys at PESfan...........So if these guys are giving the feedback what hope have we got of getting a good PES game again?

Until Konami start taking feedback from those that dont like the game and want it to be the best game on the market again we will always have an average game that the fanboys adore.

Being realistic Konami need a brand new engine and rather than take feedback from Adam and Alan Curdie they need their own ideas like they done on the Snes, PS1, PS2 sure that will upset those two if they dont manage to get their names in the manual next year but it will end up more likely a better game so the trade off will be well worth it.

fully agree.

 

[Ipswich69]

This is the problem, for years now they have only listened to feedback from the guys that loved the game on nxt-gen in the first place, WENB have constantly gave out 8's and 9's so they have always thought the game on nxt gen has been very good, Same with the guys at PESfan...........So if these guys are giving the feedback what hope have we got of getting a good PES game again?

Until Konami start taking feedback from those that dont like the game and want it to be the best game on the market again we will always have an average game that the fanboys adore.

Being realistic Konami need a brand new engine and rather than take feedback from Adam and Alan Curdie they need their own ideas like they done on the Snes, PS1, PS2 sure that will upset those two if they dont manage to get their names in the manual next year but it will end up more likely a better game so the trade off will be well worth it.

Agree with all of that. To add, those two are all about self adulation and obtaining PES code early. That's why they rate the game so highly every year. PES will never move forward if Konami is listening to them as much as they purport.

 

[Ameppe]

i guess you will be happy to know Adam says he has been involved even more with Konami and pes 2013 development...

 

[Flaw3d Genius]

i guess you will be happy to know Adam says he has been involved even more with Konami and pes 2013 development...

Yeah i have seen he's said he will take full responsibility if PES 2013 is rubbish which i find a bit odd.

My money is on he knows PES 2013 will finally have a brand new engine and he's already seen it running and it's very good. The only way i'l believe he's had more input than anyone else at Konami meaning he can be fully responsible is the game is using the current engine but the game plays totally different for the good.

 

[Ern Dog]

Just played 1 half of PES before the Classico, I have not touched PES for about 3 weeks and in one word its laughable. I cannot believe that a major company like Konami put this crap out, they should be embarressed and ashamed. I didnt think the gameplay was all that bad but the presentation is a joke. Its like a game you would download from the app market for a few quid, the production values are that bad. Gameplay wise it feels very old and outdated, just how it looks and sounds really. One thing that jumped out at me that I have seen nobody complain about is how physically weak the players are, its like if the opposition farts it knocks them down. I know people say that FIFA is overly physical but this feels like the complete opposite.
I do like how direct it feels, FIFA feels very loose and heavy where as PES is direct and tight and players feel like how I would expect in a football game. Also movement is indeed better than in FIFA, alot better. Your own team AI ia very good but opponent AI is terrible, FIFA does this far better. Player ndivduality is also more apparent.
Overall I dont think PES is really in that much trouble aslong as they get a new engine. If they can an engine which rivals FIFAs then I am confident Seabass will be able to create a fantastic game, the game we should already have been playing for a few years.

 

[Jamezinho]

Yeah i have seen he's said he will take full responsibility if PES 2013 is rubbish which i find a bit odd.

My money is on he knows PES 2013 will finally have a brand new engine and he's already seen it running and it's very good. The only way i'l believe he's had more input than anyone else at Konami meaning he can be fully responsible is the game is using the current engine but the game plays totally different for the good.

Probably not far from the truth.

 

[Ern Dog]

Has anyone tried PES2012 on the PS2? Just wondering how different it is to the PS3 version.

 

[GraGra]

Konami are at crossroads now. Produce magic or perish.

I have followed pes since pes 1 on ps1 and this year after many goes at pes 2012 and fifa12 demos I am off to concentrate on my real football team as we are moving house to a new area..

As most of my pes mates have bailed for fifa this year and I am on the fence with the demos its looking like fifa if I do dabble in digital footy this year.

 

[Suuuuupertalk]

Sadly I haven't loaded this game up for two weeks now and don't think I will again. Might try and sell it but will have to take a huge loss on it, no-one buys it second hand for more than £16-17 now. What a waste of money.

Simply put, the game for me just doesn't justify itself over other titles in other genres. I have a list of games to play including (maybe) BF3, Skyrim, Mass Effect 2, Forza 4, Arkham City, Drake's Fortune 3 and a bunch of cool stuff on the XBL store I wanna get. I'm also really enjoying FIFA12 and its career mode, with sliders changed I'm finding it to be the most realistic game/career mode I've ever played. Cue abuse in that last comment but that's the way I see it. FIFA's career mode has been a shambles in the past but this year it's fantastic, right down to minor details such as the commentators commenting on your new signings or recent results etc. Brilliant stuff.

 

[Ern Dog]

LT you can get it new for 18 quid, you would probably get under a tenner for it, may aswel keep it.

How are you finding the player movement in FIFA now? I noticed that every player in my Bristol Rovers squad has medium for both attack and defense, I wonder if this contributes to the lack of movement I am experiencing. What team have you chosen?

 

[Jamezinho]

Just keep it LT, you'll only end up buying it back. I did.

 

[ftgpete]

LT you can get it new for 18 quid, you would probably get under a tenner for it, may aswel keep it.

How are you finding the player movement in FIFA now? I noticed that every player in my Bristol Rovers squad has medium for both attack and defense, I wonder if this contributes to the lack of movement I am experiencing. What team have you chosen?

Have you tried these settings?

http://dailygamingnetwork.com/2011/11/04/fifa-12-wootballs-recommended-slider-settings/

I was the same until I put these in and now the game is much better as players are making better runs.

 

[Northzzz]

I still think Fifa's sliders are a bit basic and add next to nothing when looking to change the core gameplay. Nothing about altering them changes how players turn, their first touch or how they can dribble with perfect precision like the ball is glued to their feet. That's basically where my problems with Fifa stem and why even when altering speed the game still plays so fast. Like a streamlined version of football.

Not to mention altering speed/acceleration at all creates massive imbalances between attack and defence. Turning down speed actually makes it easier to attack because defenders are caught flat footed too often and even though my speed isn't that fast the fact that i'm in the middle of running means that i can easily get past them as they're still waiting to get to full speed. Or at least i never found a way to sort that out.

I don't think that power, run frequency, GK ability, pass speed are half of where the problems with Fifa lay either but i appreciate the sliders are there. Sliders are a good thing in my opinion. Jenkey's patch allows me to slide the speed of the gameplay and it makes a big difference even if it isn't perfect (the game needs dynamic speed based on stamina in my opinion).

 

[johnking]

i do love this game at times but then sometimes the scripting in it is so blatant i have to switch it off otherwise i might snap the thing in two.

 

[henrys hand]

i do love this game at times but then sometimes the scripting in it is so blatant i have to switch it off otherwise i might snap the thing in two.

Same here... after playing PES 5 again I popped in PES 2012 and was amazed at how it looked so much more realistic than PES 5, obviously due to much better graphics and lighting, playermodels... but it also felt more realistic due to better analogue control, 360-degree-movement and freer passing. I chose pitchside cam and loved to play it.

Sure PES 5 has still some things that are better, the animations gel better and the physical interactions are better and that side-movement when getting slow with the ball is ace. What I like the most from PES 5 is the acceleration- and momentum-possibilities with which it's possible to beat a defender, to wrong-foot him. These things somehow got lost a bit on this gen, but it's these things that allow for the magic we all want to happen again in PES on this gen and the next.

Still, PES 2012 looked and feels more realistic than PES 5, and despite the missing magic I was happy playing it again and scoring felt alright... but then the goddamn scripting came back with a vengeance. After I successfully scored the opponent team got pushed with a striker dribbling out five of my defenders and scoring. I thought ok, lucky dribbling, happens sometimes in real football, I play on and score... and then the scripting is back again, a highball flies through the air skipping 3/4 of the pitch... landing on the head of an opponent striker, the ball goes down to the ground, my keeper does the right thing, lies himself with his whole side to the ground and the ball... you won't believe it... the ball goes literally through his stomach and comes out of his ass to roll into the net

Another goal happens against me where the opponent striker jumps and get his head literally (!) through the head of one of my defenders and scores..

 

[Flaw3d Genius]

I still think Fifa's sliders are a bit basic and add next to nothing when looking to change the core gameplay. Nothing about altering them changes how players turn, their first touch or how they can dribble with perfect precision like the ball is glued to their feet. That's basically where my problems with Fifa stem and why even when altering speed the game still plays so fast. Like a streamlined version of football.

Not to mention altering speed/acceleration at all creates massive imbalances between attack and defence. Turning down speed actually makes it easier to attack because defenders are caught flat footed too often and even though my speed isn't that fast the fact that i'm in the middle of running means that i can easily get past them as they're still waiting to get to full speed. Or at least i never found a way to sort that out.

I don't think that power, run frequency, GK ability, pass speed are half of where the problems with Fifa lay either but i appreciate the sliders are there. Sliders are a good thing in my opinion. Jenkey's patch allows me to slide the speed of the gameplay and it makes a big difference even if it isn't perfect (the game needs dynamic speed based on stamina in my opinion).

Odd i find the ball is much more glued to feet in PES, With PES you can turn instantly and dribbling is far easier. Turning in Fifa can be a chore sometimes with some players turn like tanks and dribbling is no where near as fun as PES due to how the ball is glued in PES.

 

[Ern Dog]

I find FIFAs dribbling to be far better than PES. You have analog movement with just the stick so there is a range of jogging speeds. Then you have the R2 type of dribble which when used with another button allows you to strafe. You have analog sprinting, the contextual precision dribbling and the button that gives you REALLY close control. Its. All a bit much at first but when you get used to it and know when to use what its brilliant. Add to that some of the awesome little turns you can do when receivingthe ball with the right stick and it puts the PES movement options to shame.
I also dont find the ball to be glued to the fett in FIFA, far from it infact. Same with first touches, I see terrible ones all the time.

 

[Jamezinho]

PES2013 desperately needs to introduce analogue speed of movement. At the moment it's stand still, run and sprint, with no gradual change of pace in between, which is crazy given the technology available.