England v Croatia

the reason they allowed the NFL game was plain and simple. money.

wembley was millions of pounds over budget as we all know and thats why ever since it officially opened theyve used it at every opportunity to recoup some of that money back.

and i bet theyd allow us to host an evo web convention if the money was right ffs.
 
Caniggia said:
You all hated Sven! Great stuff. At least he led you to three consecutive tournaments. Be happy about that. He would have taken you through to this one too. What was that marionette doing between the posts tonight and how come Sol Campbell is back in defence???
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Because McClaren continuously neglected to see that Jamie Carragher is the best defender in the country. So he retired from international football.
 
I saw a great football match, the second half was among the best i've ever seen..but i'm a neutral fan.
I would have preferred England in the Euro, but this "golden generation" is overrated...if a player like Beckham who hardly has any match fitness is one of the best players of the team that says it all.

Furthermore i agree with Thomasgoal: the EPL (and all the money) kills the national team...if a very good player like Shaun Wright Philips goes to a team were he hardly ever plays that's not good for English football and Chelsea is a team that gives English people their chance (what about Arsenal with their beautiful football). Furthermore there is too much money in English football...i'm a regular Four Four Two reader. In that magazine they have each month two young players in "the boy's a bit special"...one of the usual questions is about their car...if people of 18-19-20 years buy themselves Range Rovers, there is something wrong...
The English team with the so-called golden generation is not a team, there is no team spirit...
The most obvious example is Steven Gerrard, he is probably the most overrated player in the world. Yes, he has a high work rate and yes he has a fantastic shot, but so does Bernd Thijs (Bernd who???) and i could name 1500 other players. Steven Gerrard is a player that would never be usefull to other than English teams...he played abysmal yesterday (i may know nothing of football but Alan Hansen singled him out yesterday evening after the match, i thinks he knows his football and he's not particularly anti-Liverpool).
England misses players like Paul Scholes, one of the only true English world class players. He has a high work rate, is very modest, has a sensible attitude towards your dreadfull press and is very effective in terms of passing and goals.
Yesterday Peter Crouch was perhaps the best English player (very good goal after a great pass), but he hardly ever plays in a very mediocre team by European standards (yes i know they played the final and they won the CL a couple of years ago, i remember, but that's because they have one of the most clever managers in the world and the win against Milan was a fluke, just as Man Utd's win against Bayern was a fluke - oh and both times i supported the English clubs).
What English football needs is a salary cap (well European football needs that), less foreign players, more foreign coaches and good trainers who can work with youth because English players can't seem to play possession football and their passing is not good enough to be effective on the counter (look at the great counter football of Croatia yesterday, but also Man Utd in the premiership: Ronaldo, Rooney, Scholes, Tevez, Giggs only Rooney is an England player).

Somebody who loves English football.

PS: to cheer you a litle bit up, i'm Belgian and our national football is hopefully reaching rock bottom - compared to our national team the English team is prospering...
 
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:lmao:


FD
 
Jack Bauer said:
But I don't feel that you have a connection with a club as a fan any more, it's called Manchester United (not picking on them, just an example), and yet there's very few players from Manchester in the team. Arsenal is French, Liverpool is Spanish, and I don't think it's right really. How are they your local club if none of the players are local? I know you've got Gerrard at Liverpool and that but I'm talking about the fact that if it wasn't for one or two stars there wouldn't be any local players in your local team.
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I've thought that many times, it's not REALLY Liverpool is it? I keep wondering if I should try a Football Manager game and ONLY have olayers who are from the town/city I manage ...

We do need quota's though, even if it's unofficial and a gentleman's agreement between clubs (so that the EU can't say we're discriminating).
 
As much as McLaren was to blame I simply can't stand how he gets 99% of the fault when he has only a 50% influence (if that). Once the players are picked and the formation decided, the players on the pitch have it ALL in their control. Do they not think "Lads we are playing shocking, lets sort this out" - are they unable to think for themselves? Isn't last nights performance EXACTLY why you have a captain, a leader, on the pitch?

They are professional athletes but last nights performance was an absolute joke. I hope to god none of them wake up this morning and think they did "alright". I could go on but the complete and utter lack of desire to send England to Euro 2008 was the single most disappointing thing about the display. *sigh*

Also, given how rubbish the pitch was (not that I am blaming that!), why didn't they close the roof during the day? They must have known the weather forecast. A retractable roof..USED..in torrential rain..on a £800 Million pound stadium, what ever was I thinking!
 
All this talk of quotas is bollocks. It won't improve anything. How many foreign players played in the English league between 1966 and 1996? Not many. How many tournaments did England win during this period? None, nada, zilch, fuck all. That's simply because we are not good enough! Grass roots football in the country is all wrong. Its improving but it still needs a shake up, we simply don't produce enough quality youngsters. That's not down to the foreign players in the prem is it? Think about it.
 
LemonJelly said:
As much as McLaren was to blame I simply can't stand how he gets 99% of the fault when he has only a 50% influence (if that). Once the players are picked and the formation decided, the players on the pitch have it ALL in their control. Do they not think "Lads we are playing shocking, lets sort this out" - are they unable to think for themselves? Isn't last nights performance EXACTLY why you have a captain, a leader, on the pitch?

They are professional athletes but last nights performance was an absolute joke. I hope to god none of them wake up this morning and think they did "alright". I could go on but the complete and utter lack of desire to send England to Euro 2008 was the single most disappointing thing about the display. *sigh*

Also, given how rubbish the pitch was (not that I am blaming that!), why didn't they close the roof during the day? They must have known the weather forecast. A retractable roof..USED..in torrential rain..on a £800 Million pound stadium, what ever was I thinking!
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No point shutting the roof, it only covers the stands behind the goal, doesn't even get close to covering the pitch.
 
Is it that English players are too bad to play abroad or is it that the english clubs in the premiership are overestimated just because of their economical power?
 
Caniggia said:
Is it that English players are too bad to play abroad or is it that the english clubs in the premiership are overestimated just because of their economical power?
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English players generally lack the technique to play abroad in countries like Italy and Spain.

Steven Gerrard was HAPPY ENOUGH?! What? We played awful! The effort WASN'T there! And "life goes on" is pretty disrespectful, coming across as him not really being too bothered. Funny he was one of the worst players on the pitch last night. Moody sod, if something doesn't go his way he throws a strop and sulks all game. Seems he doesn't like playing for England much.

"The Liverpool schemer was happy enough with England's effort, but felt Croatia's first goal inside 10 minutes was a hammer blow to the side.

"The effort was there, but the result wasn't and that's what important. There's a very disappointed dressing room in there. Life goes on I suppose," he continued. "
 
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Jack Bauer said:
I'm all for foreign quotas and I have been for years, even though I do agree with Arsene that it will hurt English football. Which sounds stupid but I'll explain why; I agree with him that you either have good enough players or you don't, and England don't. French players play in France, Italian players play in Italy, Spanish players play in Spain and they're all fantastic. Most English players, honestly (IMO), aren't.

But I don't feel that you have a connection with a club as a fan any more, it's called Manchester United (not picking on them, just an example), and yet there's very few players from Manchester in the team. Arsenal is French, Liverpool is Spanish, and I don't think it's right really. How are they your local club if none of the players are local? I know you've got Gerrard at Liverpool and that but I'm talking about the fact that if it wasn't for one or two stars there wouldn't be any local players in your local team.

So yeah, I'm all for the quotas, I'd even go as far as to say that it should include a "X players born and/or raised within X miles must be played" rule. The football would be poorer with less foreign talent but at the end of the day this is England and these are English clubs. It would get better because the system would have to change, the youth system and everything else that accompanies it.

I doubt anyone will agree but it's all about opinions isn't it? ;)
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JB, I think the total opposite. Closing our doors to Europe is absolutely the worst thing we can do at this point - Lot's of English men playing first team football does not make them better players.

However, if we could coach our kids from the age of ten say, based on a European model, about technique, passing and keeping the ball rather than playing lot's of matches on full sized pitches, running around a lot and shouting, we wouldn't have the situation we are in now.

The likes of Wenger don't bring in foreigners because he hates the English - it's because he doesn't see any that he likes.

Improve the standard of the average English player and then we won't need to import all these foreigners.
 
gerd said:
Furthermore i agree with Thomasgoal: the EPL (and all the money) kills the national team...if a very good player like Shaun Wright Philips goes to a team were he hardly ever plays that's not good for English football and Chelsea is a team that gives English people their chance (what about Arsenal with their beautiful football).
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First of all Shawn Wright Philips could of stayed at Man City or gone to Arsenal, he choose Chelsea because of the money. Serves him right if he can't get into the team, he was perfectly fine at Man City..

As for Arsenal. They don't pay silly money for average players. They keep the wages low (hence why they got rid of Ashley Cole).

Also English players have an uncanny knack of getting injured alot. Which probably has more to do with the youth set up than anyone would care to think.

I might care to point out that compared to League or Champion's League football, International football simply isn't that important. I want to watch my team play quality football week in and week out, and not just a major tournament once every 4 years or so.


English players have had their chance at Arsenal.

Bentley, wasn't good enough, simply wasn't prepared to adapt his game. Or work hard to get into the team.

Pennant. More interested in money, women, and jail.

Hartson, busy getting hammered and mooning at Taxi drivers.

Ashley Cole. Too busy trying to be the next David Beckham with that Tweedy chick from Girls Aloud.

Campbell: Got all depressed, and left.

Francis Jeffers: Played for England under 21's and looked good, however at Arsenal, where the game is more technical he couldn't live with the rest of the players.

Surely the best coach should be experience playing with and against the best players.

It seems to me English players as a whole lack the scope to improve their game.

You think Wayne Rooney will get any better than he is now? Probably not Michael Owen hasn't improved at all.

It's getting abit tiresome seeing people blaming Arsenal for all the English players problems.

gerd said:
What English football needs is a salary cap (well European football needs that), less foreign players, more foreign coaches and good trainers who can work with youth because English players can't seem to play possession football and their passing is not good enough to be effective on the counter (look at the great counter football of Croatia yesterday, but also Man Utd in the premiership: Ronaldo, Rooney, Scholes, Tevez, Giggs only Rooney is an England player).
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The teams in the Premier League with the most English players are the teams at the bottom of the league.

Arsenal in fact do have a salary cap.

You want more foreign coaches here but less foreign players. Sorry but no, foreign coaches have the sense to see that English players aren't upto scratch, and most certainly not worth the money, Football is also a business so that needs to be taken into consideration. Also why would or should any foreign coach care about the English national team? Wenger could quite easily go back to France and build another Arsenal like team there if he couldn't do it in England.

What England needs is better scouts, who look for technical ability, leadership skills, and general talent, instead of players with well connected family in the sport, and your typical 14 year 6ft clone who always ends up in the bottom divison sooner or later.. .


Sport is about the survival of the fittest, and quite simply English players are lagging behind.

Remember when Glenn Hoddle was playing?, he hardly got a game for England, because England back then were a bunch of scrappers, and Glenn Hoddle had techinical ability.

Same goes for Matt Le tissier, and he stayed loyal to lowly Southampton, which is probably why he didn't get far with England.

Then look to Ian Wright, could barely get a game with England.
Andy cole, nether could he.

Robbie Fowler, nether could he.

Yet were all players consistantly banging in the goals at the time, and could match any foreigner for that.

Croatia with a population of 4 million can find the players to get to semi finals of World Cups, and consistantly qualify for the big tournaments, and yet England with a population of 50 million cannot. It sure as hell isn't because of foreigners. English managers can't even win the Premier League, let alone look for English talent to do the job, so don't expect foreigners to do it for us.
 
Funny how all the English players getting matches in the lower division aren't improving eh.

Surely the English players in the Championship should just move to the Premier League and like magic they will become world class and fit for international football. Or will the Premier League just become like the Championship.

Gee let me guess.
 
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Peacemaker said:
First of all Shawn Wright Philips could of stayed at Man City or gone to Arsenal, he choose Chelsea because of the money. Serves him right if he can't get into the team, he was perfectly fine at Man City..

As for Arsenal. They don't pay silly money for average players. They keep the wages low (hence why they got rid of Ashley Cole).

Also English players have an uncanny knack of getting injured alot. Which probably has more to do with the youth set up than anyone would care to think.

I might care to point out that compared to League or Champion's League football, International football simply isn't that important. I want to watch my team play quality football week in and week out, and not just a major tournament once every 4 years or so.


English players have had their chance at Arsenal.

Bentley, wasn't good enough, simply wasn't prepared to adapt his game. Or work hard to get into the team.

Pennant. More interested in money, women, and jail.

Hartson, busy getting hammered and mooning at Taxi drivers.

Ashley Cole. Too busy trying to be the next David Beckham with that Tweedy chick from Girls Aloud.

Campbell: Got all depressed, and left.

Francis Jeffers: Played for England under 21's and looked good, however at Arsenal, where the game is more technical he couldn't live with the rest of the players.

Surely the best coach should be experience playing with and against the best players.

It seems to me English players as a whole lack the scope to improve their game.

You think Wayne Rooney will get any better than he is now? Probably not Michael Owen hasn't improved at all.

It's getting abit tiresome seeing people blaming Arsenal for all the English players problems.



The teams in the Premier League with the most English players are the teams at the bottom of the league.

Arsenal in fact do have a salary cap.

You want more foreign coaches here but less foreign players. Sorry but no, foreign coaches have the sense to see that English players aren't upto scratch, and most certainly not worth the money, Football is also a business so that needs to be taken into consideration. Also why would or should any foreign coach care about the English national team? Wenger could quite easily go back to France and build another Arsenal like team there if he couldn't do it in England.

What England needs is better scouts, who look for technical ability, leadership skills, and general talent, instead of players with well connected family in the sport, and your typical 14 year 6ft clone who always ends up in the bottom divison sooner or later.. .


Sport is about the survival of the fittest, and quite simply English players are lagging behind.

Remember when Glenn Hoddle was playing?, he hardly got a game for England, because England back then were a bunch of scrappers, and Glenn Hoddle had techinical ability.

Same goes for Matt Le tissier, and he stayed loyal to lowly Southampton, which is probably why he didn't get far with England.

Then look to Ian Wright, could barely get a game with England.
Andy cole, nether could he.

Robbie Fowler, nether could he.

Yet were all players consistantly banging in the goals at the time, and could match any foreigner for that.

Croatia with a population of 4 million can find the players to get to semi finals of World Cups, and consistantly qualify for the big tournaments, and yet England with a population of 50 million cannot. It sure as hell isn't because of foreigners. English managers can't even win the Premier League, let alone look for English talent to do the job, so don't expect foreigners to do it for us.
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Brilliantly put :applause:

Just one little error, Hartson is Welsh
 
Clockender said:
Brilliantly put :applause:

Just one little error, Hartson is Welsh
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I was thinking "He's Welsh ... is there an English Hartson? He must mean someone else, surely?"

Correct about the English technical players though. We generally don't have good enough technical players to compare alongside the worlds best.

Joe Cole is probably our best technical player, he had a good game running at Croatia ... and then get's taken off? :roll:
 
A bit of both cannigia.

As for the quota's, I think its bollocks, if you are good enough, you are good enough. Its very much down to the youth setups and coaching. In england its all about being the strongest and winning "the battle". In europe its about ball control, retention and enjoying yourself. Ive played youth footie in Holland and also participated in a couple of training sessions with mates in england when i used to go over there for the summer. In holland we would do running/jumping/movement and fitness practice, then we would do technical practise like shooting, passing. Then we would play 5 a sides with mini goals (about 3 by 2 feet) and then we would play a 11 a side match. When I practised in england you had to run a couple of laps, then you had some shooting practise and then for the most part you would play a 11 a side match. Now it was very little technical practise, but the worst problem was that you had kids with all different sizes and the guys that were ahead on the growth curve pretty much dominated the game just with power and speed. The little uns never had a chance.

Could anybody imagine Fabregas, being the short arse he is, to have had a decent chance at youth level in england? If i look at my team, liverpool, and their youth players that have actually made it its been down to more physical attributes then technical; Carra and Gerrard are both big lads and were back then aswell, Owen was ridiculously fast, Fowler was always stocky and had strength. And out of those it was probably only Fowler who had very good technical ability.

Anyway, back to the national team. One of the problems is that the coaches are trying to be european and slowing the game down but to do that you need players who are technically equiped to do that. You only had to see how good croatia could hold on to the ball and collect long passes, Crouch is probably the only England player to be able to do that. The rest of the time passes went astray or the ball just bounced off of the players foot. You can also see it in playing style, I do with liverpool, Gerrard is always trying to force the play and generally loses possesion because of that yet Alonso keeps calm and passes it back or sideways to keep possesion and then come back again for another go. Now each of them and their styles brings its own quality and when balanced it works well, but you need the balance. England dont have it, or atleast dont use it, because its only hargreaves and carrick that can probably do that job. And even then the rest around them cant keep the ball anyway so its quickly lost up front again.
 
DagsJT said:
Joe Cole is probably our best technical player, he had a good game running at Croatia ... and then get's taken off? :roll:
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I'd say Peter Crouch is actually, but when you look at him, he had to develop that side of his game or he'd be nothing but height.
 
Peacemaker said:
I'd say Peter Crouch is actually, but when you look at him, he had to develop that side of his game or he'd be nothing but height.
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Crouch can be good technically, he has nice control of the ball but there's no way he could weave around players like Cole, Cristiano Ronaldo and Brazilian midfielders/forwards do.
 
The problem with today's kids in England is that they don't see the talent and the ability of players, they only see the celebrity, the poster boy. England won't produce many quality players if celebrity is the primary focus of the media and thus the kids in the schoolyard. It's very easy for the media to slam all these poor performing players they hyped up in the first place.

I don't see kids wanting to be Claude Makelele for example. A player who has won everything in the game. They all want to be Lampard who really isn't that good.
 
Caniggia said:
You all hated Sven! Great stuff. At least he led you to three consecutive tournaments. Be happy about that. He would have taken you through to this one too. What was that marionette doing between the posts tonight and how come Sol Campbell is back in defence???
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One of several Mc claren 'mistakes.He showed a complete lack of respect towards Carragher.When Carragher was there,Mc claren just kept playing him out of position(sometimes as RB or worst as LB:roll:)even when Terry or Ferdinand were out.He just preferred to play either Wes Brown or even Woodgate:roll:,so Carragher decided to retire from the NT
 
Crouch can be good technically, he has nice control of the ball but there's no way he could weave around players like Cole, Cristiano Ronaldo and Brazilian midfielders/forwards do.
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But thats not the issue, and also isnt the norm to decide whether a player is technically good. Most teams have one, maybe two of these players. But generally they lose possesion a lot but thats the accepted as they can usually balance it up by creating a good chance or two.

The point is the rest of the team cant actually keep possesion meaning they are constantly running after the ball and when they do have it they lose it quickly again. Doesnt matter if you have 10 ronaldos in your team, you will end up doing the same. And thats the technical point we are on about, Crouch has no pace and wotn get past a defender, but he can keep possesion with his technique and pass it to another player and keep the ball in the team. Cole may be better at driblling, with his mile wide stepovers, and getting past a player but he's not a player to pass the ball to to calm it down and keep in it the team. Thats what england lack.
 
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