The Retro-PES Corner

[miguelfcp]

@Ps2PES: I wish I could answer, but my knowledge on J-League games is non-existent...I'm glad that @Madmac79 and @MafiaMurderBag are diving in J-League 08 right now, judging by their "reports" it's a game worth exploring though we know little about the series here in the west.

@Red_Star_Belgrade: Excellent stuff, will you be playing CPU vs CPU on that project of yours?

 

[Red_Star_Belgrade]

@miguelfcp Basically, idea is to play "against myself". Rules are simple : 18 user teams, home and away games (34 fixtures) always playing as home team. So, 306 pes matches over the next few months.

 

[miguelfcp]

@Red_Star_Belgrade: That's a very interesting idea, admittedly never thought of that. Keep us updated on how it goes, I like what I'm reading!

 

[mattmid]

@Red_Star_Belgrade I'll get in quick before @WhoAteMeDinner spots it but you'll have to change that United Kingdom team name because Republic or Ireland isn't in the UK and you have the likes of McGrath and Keane in there

Great idea by the way, look forward to seeing how it pans out. Any team that can leave Prosinecki only on the bench is the dark horse for me.

 

[WhoAteMeDinner]

Yep, @mattmid , wonder if our friend @Red_Star_Belgrade , is taking a very "soviet" approach to national identity, we are in the United Kingdom, sort of like everyone west of the sea of Japan and east of Warsaw was in the USSR, and no argument comrade.

Good one making Roy Keane captain. I, Keano am sure will see the funny side of that.

 

[mattmid]

@miguelfcp I thought about doing that for my new leagues but it is a lot of games. Talking of which testing out the Irish teams in a cup that included teams from Germany/Spain/England that I'd already done highlighted once again the wonderful player individuality of the retro pes's.

All the games were tough and I didn't win any of five, but what was great was how I really had to defend and think about closing off passing lanes and trying not to let them get space for a through ball and so on. Switch off for a second and the quality would tell and they'd be in on goal. What I also loved was the final team of the five I was Cork, who with Dundalk are away at the top of the Irish league. Straight away I could feel that they were better than the likes of Sligo and Bohemians who I had just played with, although of course still an underdog against these better teams. It's very hard to quantify what it is but you can just feel they are more agile, a bit quicker of mind, less loose passes even though it's not a big difference on the earlier Irish teams I'd used it was clearly noticeable that these had a bit more about them.

I still lost, 3-1 to M'Gladbach, but I was 1-1 at one stage and I wish I'd been recording as there was a great bit of pressing from the Germans that led to the first goal. I played a short goal kick and had my fellow CB a bit ahead of me to my left, the RB pushed up the wing a bit and a midfield on the edge of the centre circle open. As I took a couple of strides forward, they pressed and my pass to the full back was no longer on, the striker had pushed my other CB and was running towards me, whilst a midfielder was approaching my open one from the side. I passed to him and the player I was controlling then came forward a bit to get into space. Before I knew it their midfielder had nipped in front of mine to steal the pass before it got to me. Suddenly they were three on one in the middle of my half. One pass later and it was in the back of my net. Brilliant stuff

 

[fmicablues7]

I just finished revisiting every single PS3 PES edition. Great games, far better than everything released after PES 2013, so much potential, but also some annoying flaws, preventing them from being considered as high as the PS2 PES. The most common flaw was surely the bad animations. Even PES 3 outdated animations feel better.

PES 2008 : When i first played it, i was not browsing any PES forums and quite enjoyed it. I also was playing FIFA at that time, so that was the reason maybe. Now, it's not as bad as i thought, after reading some opinions on this forum, but i wouldn't play it for more than a few exhibitions games to be honest.

PES 2009 : An improved PES 2008 for me, although too much arcadey and attack oriented for my taste. Rigid animations also. Superstars players really stand out though.

PES 2010 : Should have been the PES following PES 6 IMO. The gameplay from this one was the closest to the PS2 Era. Stats were prominent. The master league was so deep. But awful referees and a quite harmless CPU offensive-wise ruined it.

PES 2011 : Maybe the best PS3 PES ? I really like it, last PES game to have acceleration/aggression/shot technique stats, great tactic system, CPU build-up is really pleasant, passing feels good. There was that annoying catch-up bug though. I think last yair's patch managed to remove it. But CPU was still not enough clinical and it was quite an easy game IMO.

PES 2012 : The CPU build-up play is not enough varied. Some blatant cheating. Removal of important stats like acceleration/aggression/shot technique and cards like PK taker. But the game is maybe the most challenging in PS3 era.

PES 2013 : Same problem concerning the build-up play, but worse than PES12 IMO. Also some cheating. CPU tends to do only low shots. Also a challenging game. Animations are way better than early PES from PS3 era, but still too robotic.

 

[WhoAteMeDinner]

Imagine a football game where these bad boys could be in your team. The Big Unit with the whiskers and paws would make a cracking centre back and the little blue lad could be a winger.

So what my mad idea is, a joint venture between Konami and Studio Ghibli to make football game with fantastical creatures and some plucky kids for good measure.

What do you think ?

 

[mattmid]

PES 2012 : Removal of important stats like acceleration/aggression/shot technique and cards like PK taker.

You just look at that and think....why? Why would they do that.

What do you think ?

I think that's where they are heading

 

[fmicablues7]

You just look at that and think....why? Why would they do that.



I think that's where they are heading

I was a member of PSD database forum at that time and we were like "what the h*** is going on" "Konami screw it again" ? These were really useful stats to get more individuality. We finally found that acceleration in-game was driven by explosive power (formerly agility). But this is so wrong, because some players might not be very nimble, but still have a great acceleration, think of Ronaldo from Madrid days for example.

Penalty ability was based on Free-Kick Accuracy with the removal of the penalty card, also a poor decision. Lampard is maybe the best PK taker i know of, but he's not that great to shoot free-kicks. So, in PES 2012 and 2013, he is average for taking penalties, which is stupid.

 

[miguelfcp]

@mattmid: It's amazing how after more than a decade these games can still surprise us in so many ways, even when it comes to tactical moves played out by the AI which would rival many of the more recent PES games; quite often it's even superior, but I'll only say this here where "no-one's listening", as I don't want to burst the bubble of those who are enjoying modern football games and ruin their experience.
How are you finding the experience of playing with a (presumably) low-stats league like the irish?

@fmicablues7: Great analysis, I can say I agree with everything you wrote. I think every PS3 PES brings different stuff to the table and they're worth experimenting with, particularly PES10 with its instant-classic ML.

 

[loco]

I was a member of PSD database forum at that time and we were like "what the h*** is going on" "Konami screw it again" ? These were really useful stats to get more individuality. We finally found that acceleration in-game was driven by explosive power (formerly agility). But this is so wrong, because some players might not be very nimble, but still have a great acceleration, think of Ronaldo from Madrid days for example.

That's not accurate. Explosive power (redefined to encompass acceleration and other attributes) is formerly acceleration, and body control (redefined to encompass agility and other attributes) is formerly agility.

 

[Madmac79]

2011 was a lot of fun and a really unique chapter for some verses (loved the PK system), I remember playing it a lot back in the days, especially ML. However I hated player models and I think the animations were really the worst of all Ps3 era, so clunky and unrealistics, on par with 2009. It was also too fast, but maybe because I was playing on pc, without the slowest speeds. Individuality was at it's pinnacle in a lot of sides (shoots and passing, for example), but catch up bug and the fact that defending the ball in a shoulder vs shoulder was inconsistent penalized it heavily imho.

That said it had some incredible variety and a super rich ML where scouting was relevant, but it's maybe the only retro chapter I can't get excited about at least at the moment. I wish I could recover the gameplay patches of the time but wherever I search I only find offline links.

 

[fmicablues7]

That's not accurate. Explosive power (redefined to encompass acceleration and other attributes) is formerly acceleration, and body control (redefined to encompass agility and other attributes) is formerly agility.

I'm just talking about PES 2012 and PES 2013, i don't know about the later editions. I'm almost certain explosive power is the same as agility because the values are the same for each player if we take the PSP/PS2 version of PES 12/13, which still has the acceleration and agility stats. Body control doesn't exist in PES 12 and 13.

 

[fmicablues7]

2011 was a lot of fun and a really unique chapter for some verses (loved the PK system), I remember playing it a lot back in the days, especially ML. However I hated player models and I think the animations were really the worst of all Ps3 era, so clunky and unrealistics, on par with 2009. It was also too fast, but maybe because I was playing on pc, without the slowest speeds. Individuality was at it's pinnacle in a lot of sides (shoots and passing, for example), but catch up bug and the fact that defending the ball in a shoulder vs shoulder was inconsistent penalized it heavily imho.

That said it had some incredible variety and a super rich ML where scouting was relevant, but it's maybe the only retro chapter I can't get excited about at least at the moment. I wish I could recover the gameplay patches of the time but wherever I search I only find offline links.

Last yair's patch : http://www.mediafire.com/file/h0ecaru49icwxwr/PES2011+-+yair25+gameplay+2.6.1.exe

 

[Madmac79]

Last yair's patch : http://www.mediafire.com/file/h0ecaru49icwxwr/PES2011+-+yair25+gameplay+2.6.1.exe

Thanks mate. Much appreciated! Will fire this up next Pes session.

 

[loco]

I'm just talking about PES 2012 and PES 2013, i don't know about the later editions. I'm almost certain explosive power is the same as agility because the values are the same for each player if we take the PSP/PS2 version of PES 12/13, which still has the acceleration and agility stats. Body control doesn't exist in PES 12 and 13.

For those games it encompasses acceleration, agility and another attribute related to quickness I can't remember right now. The values being the same reflects the lack of understanding and full reach of the new attributes (much like body control in 2017).

 

[fmicablues7]

For those games it encompasses acceleration, agility and another attribute related to quickness I can't remember right now. The values being the same reflects the lack of understanding and full reach of the new attributes (much like body control in 2017).

Or lazyness from Konami ? Anyway, the point is the same, they mixed some stats -> there are less stats -> less individuality.

 

[miguelfcp]

Given the shitstorm that spawned all over the interwebz due to the removal of a few 2nd divisions on the upcoming PES game, @mattmid would you be kind enough to lend your new PES6 tool you've been using to Konami for them to quickly amend the mistake and re-introduce those leagues before the release date?

 

[Titch]

Imagine a football game where these bad boys could be in your team. The Big Unit with the whiskers and paws would make a cracking centre back and the little blue lad could be a winger.

So what my mad idea is, a joint venture between Konami and Studio Ghibli to make football game with fantastical creatures and some plucky kids for good measure.

What do you think ?

That would be amazing!
Plenty of characters to choose from.
Making them in PES is fine for names and stats but it's a shame the game can't be modded to make the characters.
I saw a video of various GTA mods that featured Kermit the frog and Slimer. Imagine being able to play with them in PES!

 

[loco]

Or lazyness from Konami ? Anyway, the point is the same, they mixed some stats -> there are less stats -> less individuality.

The "laziness from Konami" argument is getting old really, it's actually commercial/marketing strategy. The past 8 or 9 years the game has been simplifying attributes, skills, tactics, etc. and evolving in a way that each time it resembles more Fifa. This has been done in order to make the transition from Fifa to PES easier and thus have take a piece of Fifa's cake.

Whether we agree or not with this strategy is another subject. I agree that the game has gotten quite shallow, especially since 2017 where Team ID and Player ID where completely wiped out and you needed to compensate for this via fluid formations and player styles modifications.

I can't go as far back as PES 3 or PES 6 since they are basically arcade games (fun none the least), but neither I can't play 2017 or 2018 because they feel shallow and lifeless. I have currently found a sweet spot with 2016, to me is a deeper game than 2017 and 2018 and in many ways combines the best from 2014, 2015 and the best from 2012, 2013.

 

[slamsoze]

The "laziness from Konami" argument is getting old really, it's actually commercial/marketing strategy. The past 8 or 9 years the game has been simplifying attributes, skills, tactics, etc. and evolving in a way that each time it resembles more Fifa. This has been done in order to make the transition from Fifa to PES easier and thus have take a piece of Fifa's cake.

Whether we agree or not with this strategy is another subject. I agree that the game has gotten quite shallow, especially since 2017 where Team ID and Player ID where completely wiped out and you needed to compensate for this via fluid formations and player styles modifications.

I can't go as far back as PES 3 or PES 6 since they are basically arcade games (fun none the least), but neither I can't play 2017 or 2018 because they feel shallow and lifeless. I have currently found a sweet spot with 2016, to me is a deeper game than 2017 and 2018 and in many ways combines the best from 2014, 2015 and the best from 2012, 2013.

I’m trying 2016 with a full pte patch today.I didn’t like it despite according to steam I spent 946hours when in pes 2015 I spent 254. Gameplay wise I liked 2015 much more but when it comes to ML longevity I vote for 16. Until today 2018 , pes2016 was the most complete pes ML package related to competitions/cups etc.
Like pes2011 was the most complete package in terms of club management,investments,finances managing,player training,acquire new positions or skill cards/traits.everything is there.

 

[fmicablues7]

The "laziness from Konami" argument is getting old really, it's actually commercial/marketing strategy. The past 8 or 9 years the game has been simplifying attributes, skills, tactics, etc. and evolving in a way that each time it resembles more Fifa. This has been done in order to make the transition from Fifa to PES easier and thus have take a piece of Fifa's cake.

Whether we agree or not with this strategy is another subject. I agree that the game has gotten quite shallow, especially since 2017 where Team ID and Player ID where completely wiped out and you needed to compensate for this via fluid formations and player styles modifications.

I can't go as far back as PES 3 or PES 6 since they are basically arcade games (fun none the least), but neither I can't play 2017 or 2018 because they feel shallow and lifeless. I have currently found a sweet spot with 2016, to me is a deeper game than 2017 and 2018 and in many ways combines the best from 2014, 2015 and the best from 2012, 2013.

Laziness from Konami not in general strategy, but related to copying/pasting agility values for explosive power, even though the two stats do not encompass the same things.

I don't agree about branding the PS2 PES as only "arcade", they are much more than that and this thread shows every day situations in the games much more realistic than the newer ones. To be honest, i absolutely hated PES 2016 because of these damn lowshot, but if you enjoy it, fair enough. I can't play personally any PES game after 2013, because the stats have nowhere near the same influence as in the old games.

 

[loco]

I’m trying 2016 with a full pte patch today.I didn’t like it despite according to steam I spent 946hours when in pes 2015 I spent 254. Gameplay wise I liked 2015 much more but when it comes to ML longevity I vote for 16. Until today 2018 , pes2016 was the most complete pes ML package related to competitions/cups etc.
Like pes2011 was the most complete package in terms of club management,investments,finances managing,player training,acquire new positions or skill cards/traits.everything is there.

Agree, download the latest version from the PTE patch and when you do that, you could add https://mackubex.weebly.com/pes-2016-option-file.html (it's not perfect, but it's a good base to start from). I am also using the dt18 file from the demo.

 

[mattmid]

@miguelfcp I'm really enjoying it Apart from the cup games against stronger side I've played 2 cup games against fellow league teams. I beat Bray 2-0 with Bohemians, Bray are in all sorts of financial trouble I believe and players are leaving because they haven't been paid so they are firmly bottom of the table. Then I lost 2-1 to Derry playing as Sligo. Both games were great fun. I was well on top against Bray but I still had difficulty breaking them down and getting chances, I think in the end it was something like 9 shots to 3 in my favour. Their keeper spilled a couple of shots but also made one excellent diving save. Derry v Sligo was a good one too, they went 2-0 up after about an hour, then I got one back on around 75 and it was a tight finish as I tried to get an equaliser.

I was just looking through the FM file and thinking what's an obscure league to try out. I opted for Indonesia! I've got my sheet ready and after looking at how some of the stats are panning out I can't wait to see how it plays. There's some really intriguing numbers showing up. As you'd expect a lot of the ATT/DEF totals are coming out in the 50/60 range although some just get into 70's but what I'm seeing is the teamwork stat is coming out rather nice (I've even seen a couple of 90's!) and that's making me think the teamwork is going to help them even though their skills elsewhere are going to be lower. Also there's a batch of foreign players in the league and they are showing up as looking like the 'stars' of the league as you might expect, which is another aspect that I'm looking forward to, to see if they stand out from the crowd. Going to get started on it shortly so we'll see how it goes.

 

[slamsoze]

Just to make things clear. If someone came as guest to my place and told me "lets fire up an old pes between 2015 and 2016" i would choose 2015 eyes closed. The player models are bigger more solid, i love the passing in PA1, it is "free as a bird", not the famous "free as a bird" from this years pes 2019 promo ! , the game tempo is more fluid and slow. In 2016 is like a passing laser pinball fest. For sure both games have their pros and cons. What takes me away from playing 2015 for more than 5-6 ML seasons is the very bad and laggy menu's, must be on of the worst of all series, this white background that drives you insane, the complicated and unwieldy menus, for example needing many scroll back and forward and about 5 minutes to put some players in transferlist, the bad player stats screening with the stupid system that show only spe,tec,phy , which was inspired 100% from the facebook application "PES association football" and the unnecessary removal of Liga Chilena which was already in PES 2014, all these made me and still make me prefer more a ML campaign in PES 2016,despite i will try MLs in 2015 and 2016 both . And finally both games lack of the ATT/DEF level which is a ig fault in any pes thats removes it, as it has been removed and come back many times due the whole saga.

 

[loco]

Laziness from Konami not in general strategy, but related to copying/pasting agility values for explosive power, even though the two stats do not encompass the same things.

I don't agree about branding the PS2 PES as only "arcade", they are much more than that and this thread shows every day situations in the games much more realistic than the newer ones. To be honest, i absolutely hated PES 2016 because of these damn lowshot, but if you enjoy it, fair enough. I can't play personally any PES game after 2013, because the stats have nowhere near the same influence as in the old games.

They are arcade to the nature of the sport. Being arcade doesn't take away that they perform better in some aspects modern games don't, the same way modern games despite having their problems and their "lack of soul", are more sim to the nature of the sport.

Many people hated 2016 back in the day, but if you play it now, it's a deeper game than what it was credited for. I havealways considered 2013 somewhat similar to 6: praised by the community and fanboys of the series, but yet no better overall than their predecessors (3, 4, 5, 2011, 2012). In the case of 2013, one can even make a case for 2015 and 2016 being overall better games.

If I could make a game, I would certainly have 2016 or 2015 as a base, have the old stats, special abilities and position system, combine tactics, fluid schemes and team strategies (2017-2019) with Team ID and player ID (2013-2016) and contextual tactics (2011) alongside some gameplay elements from ISS pro series and World Fantasista (PS2).

 

[mattmid]

Ah the menus. The only more modern pes I have is 17 and the menu's are designed by a five year old I think. In fact that's probably offensive to five year olds.

Right, I want to set up a cup of teams from various leagues. Oh I can't pick them myself first like the old days you're going to pick them and then I'll change them. Annoying but fair enough. Up they come. Oh great Fulham v Argentina. FFS! Not even an option to just have club or country. No let's throw them all in. Ok let's change Argentina to Vasco Da Gama. Select Argentina, press a button now we have the complete list of leagues down the side. Can I go up and get to the bottom of the menu? No, that's not happening mate, you'll have to scroll right down near to the bottom. Then open up the league and oh let's scroll down to Vasco Da Gama as well. Select them and we're back. Right Napoli v Burkina Faso, oh here we go again.

Was it really so bad to have it all one on screen that it had to be changed to make it as long winded as possible? Are they masochists?

 

[Lobbedball]

Ah the menus. The only more modern pes I have is 17 and the menu's are designed by a five year old I think. In fact that's probably offensive to five year olds.

Right, I want to set up a cup of teams from various leagues. Oh I can't pick them myself first like the old days you're going to pick them and then I'll change them. Annoying but fair enough. Up they come. Oh great Fulham v Argentina. FFS! Not even an option to just have club or country. No let's throw them all in. Ok let's change Argentina to Vasco Da Gama. Select Argentina, press a button now we have the complete list of leagues down the side. Can I go up and get to the bottom of the menu? No, that's not happening mate, you'll have to scroll right down near to the bottom. Then open up the league and oh let's scroll down to Vasco Da Gama as well. Select them and we're back. Right Napoli v Burkina Faso, oh here we go again.

Was it really so bad to have it all one on screen that it had to be changed to make it as long winded as possible? Are they masochists?

A 5 year old can do better than those menus indeed...such a shamw

 

[WhoAteMeDinner]

@mattmid , look at the fans that you could have in a PES / Studio Ghibli football game. These guys would give the Millwall F.C. hard men a run for their money.