eFootball PES 2020 Demo Discussion Thread (PS4/Xbox)

[cosmo]

'was it an issue in the first place?'

Your implication is, that certain issues are not existent so there is no "fix" needed, beside the change of some settings which is not a fix, I disagree with this observation.

AI, in some situations, reverts back to default hardcoded behaviour, I still remember fiddling around in 2018 online mode, some stuff you cant get how you want and its easily exploitable if you know what you re doing.

Therefore such "feedback" as from your side, is really not only not helping but also the opposite.

 

[Madmac79]

Me and many others loved Pes 2017 (and Fifas like the 16).

And pointed out quite extensively what they disliked about the new ones and the damn nostalgia effect has nothing-to-do-with-it.

I seriously don't know what to say anymore to stop this idea that we are just closed to modern games.

 

[Chuny]

Me and many others loved Pes 2017 (and Fifas like the 16).

And pointed out quite extensively what they disliked about the new ones and the damn nostalgia effect has nothing-to-do-with-it.

I seriously don't know what to say anymore to stop this idea that we are just closed to modern games.

Like FIFA 16 wasn't a modern game, right?.

 

[janguv]

I respect you’ve got a different opinion to me.

But the bottom line, for me, is:

Chris might get invited to events but he still writes his honest opinions here.

PES Universe would sell their grandma if it meant they could get it play PES earlier than everyone else and get the attention for it.

(Sorry for speaking you @Chris Davies just my opinion)

PES Universe make money from PES. Directly, indirectly, whatever it doesn’t matter. They make actual cash because of PES despite not being employed by Konami.

Chris, as far as I can tell, doesn’t get paid a dime. He just loves footy gaming and wants it to be good.

Again, you're being really loose with the facts and implicit premises in your argument. It's not clear they make money – on their site they say every penny goes back into the site costs, and elsewhere I've seen them say they use spare money to do giveaways.

Second, it's very obscure why their making money (if they actually did) would make them Konami shills. If you started up a YouTube series of PES videos, and it grew a following, and you setup a Patreon account, you'd start getting monthly donations, and indirectly making money from PES. If, beyond that, you also got noticed by Konami because you have a following and so got invited to a playtest event, it would not make you a shill. It also wouldn't make you a shill if you reviewed the game positively, while others in a forum somewhere else reviewed it negatively.

The mention of money, the option files, etc. – it's just a red herring so you can point to something shady about them and let others make an inference about them being shills. It's nonsense.

 

[Madmac79]

Like FIFA 16 wasn't a modern game, right?.

Sorry mate, I don't get if it's sarcasm or not.

In regards of Pes I consider everything Pes 2014 onwards as "modern". By reflex to me Fifa 16 is still pretty modern. I also liked a lot Fifa 17 even if I think I'm more alone on that one.

It's just to say that I (as many others) don't have any particular prejudice over modern stuff.

 

[Chris Davies]

The "shill" stuff has got to stop guys - PES Universe have a right to create something, put hard work into it and then sell it. Do you seriously think they make a living out of it?

Nobody's a shill. All the PES communities should respect each other, this idea that we don't all love the series is staggering.

 

[Chuny]

Sorry mate, I don't get if it's sarcasm or not.

In regards of Pes I consider everything Pes 2014 onwards as "modern". By reflex to me Fifa 16 is still pretty modern. I also liked a lot Fifa 17 even if I think I'm more alone on that one.

It's just to say that I (as many others) don't have any particular prejudice over modern stuff.

Of course it is! I LOVE FIFA 16 too!
And obviously, it's still a modern game.

 

[Peter Withe]

There are still fans of PES, the older guys (I’m one of them older guys btw), who refuse to acknowledge that the game simply isn’t that good or fun anymore.

I still have PES 2019 because like an idiot I bought it digitally. Same as with PES 2018. I won’t be doing this again.

I’m a little bitter about PES and Konami now because my gaming highlight of the year, every year, was the release of PES.

But the series has declined and now focuses on myClub and the fantasy BS like classic players and all that shit.

PES has a completely different following now, younger guys, who play a lot of myClub and don’t really care that Master League is a shallow piece of crap every year or that every team plays exactly the same offline.

I’m disgruntled and annoyed by Konami, I’m bored of the series yet I crave for it to return to its roots and give us all the semi arcade/semi simulated fun, challenging, beautiful game that it used to be.

But I can’t see it ever returning to that. People care more about faces, hair, tattoos and opening Mbappe in a black ball now. I’m old, fed up with football gaming and I use this platform (Evo-Web) to vent.

@klashman69 I have no idea of who you are but the main PES Universe people, you know who they are, Konami/PES shills and would say anything to guarantee that they stay on the right side of Adam Bhatti and company and they’ll make a buck whilst they’re at it. They’re everything that’s wrong with PES now. Back in the day no- one made money from the community, we all share option files and editing techniques to make the game more immersive.

@Chris Davies There are definitely shills. And there are people that make money from PES by selling option files etc. It doesn’t matter if it’s full time money or just 1 dollar. It’s wrong, the community never used to be about that.

 

[Emroth]

There is not a way to stop AI from scoring when it enters goal scoring mode, it's immediately noticeable. You could put 10 men in penalty area and CPU could be able to find the little space they need, even if it means cheating defying physics and literally going through defenders legs to shoot.

This is it.
I didnt want to get involved, as I tried to discuss with @klashman69 in the past and its simply pointless. He is either oblivious to the whole thing, or he loves the new Pes direction so much that he couldnt care less about realism.

I have written a very long post before, giving him examples how AI behaves, how it cheats, how our players are unresponsive and the ball just goes by them when you hammer the clear button. His response basically was
"- I am a shit defender."
So I just gave up.

I have nothing against pesuniverse guys, im in contact with Barry, Craig, BZM and I like them. I believe they have knowledge and really want to improve the game.

What I dont like, is when people have no intention to admit that there are obvious problems and either call you toxic, or say that you just dont know how to play the game.

Im not stuck in the past. I play and I enjoy Pes17, where AI cheating is much less visible, and matches are fair. Where I get AI star players behaving like star players, teams playing differently, COM doing skill moves and having shots from distance. And that was 3 years ago. So Im not stuck in the past, Im stuck in the game that resembles football.

Fingers crossed for Pes20.

 

[Filippo-Inzaghi]

Was it me who did bring up the PESUniverse subject?

Oooooohps. Sorry for that. Fire everywhere.

 

[TheGoodOldDays]

Again, you're being really loose with the facts and implicit premises in your argument. It's not clear they make money – on their site they say every penny goes back into the site costs, and elsewhere I've seen them say they use spare money to do giveaways.

Second, it's very obscure why their making money (if they actually did) would make them Konami shills. If you started up a YouTube series of PES videos, and it grew a following, and you setup a Patreon account, you'd start getting monthly donations, and indirectly making money from PES. If, beyond that, you also got noticed by Konami because you have a following and so got invited to a playtest event, it would not make you a shill. It also wouldn't make you a shill if you reviewed the game positively, while others in a forum somewhere else reviewed it negatively.

The mention of money, the option files, etc. – it's just a red herring so you can point to something shady about them and let others make an inference about them being shills. It's nonsense.

I agree with this, just because you make money from a game doesn't necessitate that you are acting in bad faith. What does mark you out as untrustworthy is when you become conditioned to engaging in damage control for the game even when it is completely unnecessary. For example instead of giving straight answers, you mention things tangential to the question at hand in order to make what would otherwise be negative answers more palatable. But never in the reverse, for example if something is claimed to be positive you will never see them say "but I was quite disappointed to still see X happening", for example. Or constantly offering caveats like "don't forget this is an early build" or "Konami assured us they are still working on it". I suspect it is very easy to fall into this pattern when it more or less guarantees you will be invited back every year, it's a much safer strategy than brutal honesty let's face it.

 

[Chuny]

There are still fans of PES, the older guys (I’m one of them btw), who refuse to acknowledge that the game simply isn’t that good or fun anymore

I was just watching the game played between Adam and Robbye and, even though it is definitely hard to play while you're talking about something and trying to make sense of it, it was also clear to me that they weren't having fun either.
Overreacting after simple scoring chances or saves made by the GK, etc. And the fact I think they were overreacting - Some might say "it's their job, you silly boy!", but I don't think that was the MAIN reason. Because it happens to me too.
Whenever I play with friend or even alone, sometimes I feel like the game isn't as fun as it used to be and I'm forcing myself to like it or see any good in it "Oh, look at that pass with the outside of the foot!" - We used to have that in freaking PS1, man why are you jumping up your seat for?.

 

[MKC]

I know that the current discussion in this board is more about nostalgia for old games, PES Universe, etc. But i've been catching up with recent posts and an idea about A.I. and difficulty popped up in my head. A lot of people here are really unhappy with the way the A.I. plays, of course that has a lot to do with the style they play, but it's clear that this is also related to the difficulty (Example: The A.I. play like Barcelona in high difficulties with every team and that is unrealistic), but i mean, that is an issue that will always exist i think, because Konami's logic must be "If he chose a high difficulty setting, he wants a challenge at all times". A few years back there were a lot of complaints about superstar being too easy, now there are a lot of complaints about superstar and legend feeling unrealistic because mediocre teams play too efficiently, these are both valid complaints. I feel that something that could help a lot would be for Konami to add some sort of "dynamic" difficulty that is purely stat based. Like, i'm a 5 star team and i'm playing against a 1 star team, it should feel like "Regular" difficulty or something, with my opponents kicking the ball foward because they can't find space, misplacing passes, shooting poorly, etc. On the opposite situation, if i'm a 1 star team playing against a 5 star team, it would be like "Legend" difficulty. Of course, this can be done manualy, but i feel that a lot of people don't do it because they either don't think about it or because if feels like your campaing or title isn't "legit", if there was this one official programmed setting in the game i think a lot of people would like the idea more. Of course that this wouldn't solve every issue, the style in which the A.I. plays would need to be sorted out too (with there being more random kicks foward due to lack of space and skill by worse teams, for example), and stats would have to matter more (so that if i'm playing with a 1 star teams i actually make more mistakes), my suggestion wouldn't solve the game's problems, but i feel like it could make it more enjoyable. What do you guys think?

 

[gabe.paul.logan]

Would anyone be happy if the reintegrate the PES 2015 passing levels? If you remember there were proper differences between the assistance levels. The highest level was the current PA1.

(Personaly i dont want that, personaly i think manual controls killed the players passing skills, shooting too. Its all about your input not the ability level.)

 

[janguv]

I agree with this, just because you make money from a game doesn't necessitate that you are acting in bad faith. What does mark you out as untrustworthy is when you become conditioned to engaging in damage control for the game even when it is completely unnecessary. For example instead of giving straight answers, you mention things tangential to the question at hand in order to make what would otherwise be negative answers more palatable. But never in the reverse, for example if something is claimed to be positive you will never see them say "but I was quite disappointed to still see X happening", for example. Or constantly offering caveats like "don't forget this is an early build" or "Konami assured us they are still working on it". I suspect it is very easy to fall into this pattern when it more or less guarantees you will be invited back every year, it's a much safer strategy than brutal honesty let's face it.

Yes and no. I mean, sometimes I think they're just being polite especially when they're still at E3, appearing on the streams, etc. Barry from PES Universe, in his recent first impressions video, was mostly pretty positive, but he did mention there's still not enough fouls from the AI – I guess that would fall into your "but I was quite disappointed to still see X happening" category of statement.

I also think it's less a strategy to be invited back than just often having a very different set of priorities. Almost always the guys they invite to these events are online players, and the experience they get is LAN. So it will feel smoother, and they're excited about that. I expect they are in general not especially observant about AI issues. So they generally won't point them out as much, or if they notice them, won't think of them as that important.

 

[RCE]

Gameplay videos are lookin really good. But we must play. PES 2019 was totally garbage, maybe one of the worst football games ever. Nothing depends on a player. I'm so romantic to PES because of the retro PES games, and every year we give another chance to them.
But I am so optimistic right now, new name, new game.

 

[janguv]

Would anyone be happy if the reintegrate the PES 2015 passing levels? If you remember there were proper differences between the assistance levels. The highest level was the current PA1.

(Personaly i dont want that, personaly i think manual controls killed the players passing skills, shooting too. Its all about your input not the ability level.)

Yes, I would want that. I don't want only FUMA either. But the option between FUMA, a low pass support, and higher levels (for beginners, but not as people get into higher levels of competition) would be great.

 

[Ameppe]

Would anyone be happy if the reintegrate the PES 2015 passing levels? If you remember there were proper differences between the assistance levels. The highest level was the current PA1.

(Personaly i dont want that, personaly i think manual controls killed the players passing skills, shooting too. Its all about your input not the ability level.)

In Pes 2015 at PA1 you had to actually be careful or you could concede a throw in with a wrong passage. In Pes 2019 PA1 is so assisted when i switched to it i felt like i was way too limited in my passing. I mean, long passes are good even at PA1, but short passes are way too random.

 

[janguv]

I play and I enjoy Pes17, where AI cheating is much less visible, and matches are fair. Where I get AI star players behaving like star players, teams playing differently, COM doing skill moves and having shots from distance. And that was 3 years ago. So Im not stuck in the past, Im stuck in the game that resembles football.

Fingers crossed for Pes20.

Well, from at least some of the footage we've seen recently, including superstar, the COM is doing these things again. How often and how adaptively remains to be seen. But there's at least a reason to cross fingers – for now

Was it me who did bring up the PESUniverse subject?

Oooooohps. Sorry for that. Fire everywhere.

Haha, nah. It happens routinely whenever there's a playtest or E3 type thing. People love to cast doubt on that lot whenever they appear to have any positive association with Konami.

 

[Chuny]

Yes there should be more Support options. Something between FUMA and PA1, for instance.
There should be more Gameplay Speed options as well. Something between -1 and 0 and also someething between 0 a +1.
It's what I've been saying all along, the key to a much better game is in greater customization possibilities accross all areas. Gameplay modificators. Cameras (yeah the new camera is very good, but you can't change the height or zoom). Stadium, Players, etc.

 

[Emroth]

Pes 2019 PA1 is so assisted when i switched to it i felt like i was way too limited in my passing. I mean, long passes are good even at PA1, but short passes are way too random.

That was the reason i switched this year, for the first time, to PA0 and learned to play on manual. On PA1 game was picking the targets for me, especially in short passes.

 

[klashman69]

Klash, I've said I respect you for the tactics work you do - and I do - but I can show you a video of the worst teams stringing ten passes together and, of all the things wrong with that, you say:

You say it's because we're not playing well enough, that we're giving the AI too much space by not selecting tactics intelligently before a game so what do we expect.

We expect, in a football game, the worst teams not to string ten first-time no-look passes together. That is a deep technical problem.

PES on the PS2 after PES 3 was about stable buildup, the game was locked in 16 directions so there was no clamour for 'freedom' the realistic effects and balanced worked perfectly for what was available for the time but most importantly in regards to passing since it was 16 directions you could put variables in to make passing harder and stop team from stringing multiple passes together. Also dribbling for the time was fantastic, but looking at whats available now it was quite simple to get right

PES on the PS3 from 2011-2013 is where tactics evolved and the L2 manual modifier became a major thing. PES 2012 at the start was too arcade like with lazer everything however the way you played and approached the game had changed with the full introduction of 360 movement, so when we got to PES 2013 we have moved on fully from what PES on the PS2 was

PES on the PS4 has had for many years responsiveness issues and is a very 'passing' based game. This has been the case since PES 2014, only by the time we got to PES 2017 on the PC we had something solid in regards to movement, with the fox engine and all that has been needed in regards to animations to make the game not just fluid, but work fundamentally Konami haven't done enough to make movement and dribbling responsive and free enough. Every game since PES 2014 has been a very passing based game, for the AI the dribbling mechanics aren't strong enough like on the PS2 or PS3 games for the AI to be a threat with it, so passing is balanced to be a more effective method of attack.

This brings me to your point on lazer guided passing. I personally like to see the AI have less accuracy, its a little too much as its been on every PS4 generation game, but its not a huge issue for me, because as i have set out, how you play the game compared to previous generations has changed. Now the AI has so much more potential and more actions to make passes in 360 directions and the formations are more advanced than before, less 'fixed' into positions on the pitch. Off the ball the AI is fundamentally setup to beat you as quick and as efficiently as possible on the hardest levels. its the fundamental principle of how the AI works on this gen, very different to PES on the PS2 especially PES 5 where the AI were so obsessed with possession they would pass backwards at times when the goal was open, its happened a number of times but it shows what was around at the time.

The AI did not have the potential to do this with the same level back in the PS2 days. this is fundamentally something which was not and never would be an issue on the PS2 simply because it was 16 directions, and you have the modern conundrum of realistic movement, foot planting, inertia etc.. I thought its important i lay this out, to show how playing games on each generation has changed so much and how to balance the games has changed so much.

Back on the PS2, making the game 'slow' for realism is easy, and that is i see sadly now, people just wanting the game to be slow and how slow buildup, for me realism in football the pace should be like a cat, at times, slow walking pace and sometimes all action end to end with the majority of the game pace dictated by formations and then player abilities.

If you're okay with it, great. But it's absolutely valid to NOT be okay with that - and to critique it like adults - and to WANT the game to be better.

Now I've probably said this before, this is why i believe people are being left in the past. Hopefully people will see my point now, some things i speak about over and over which have been a problem, like the tron running in PES on this generation, thing is like i have explained regarding the passing, while we all would like the passing from the AI to be less lazer guided at times, how i see this is very different to how i would have seen this on the PS2. I want the AI to try to kick my ass every game, just making passing difficult globally so i appears realistic is a very fine balance to hit! I feel its a balance that needs to allow you to try the pass you want, its the AI and game engine which needs to be good enough make it appear as realistic as the settings allow. I feel it his must be based predominantly on stats and the amount of space available. I don't want it like FIFA sliders which make the AI miss passes at random regardless of position context which i see all the time in all the FIFA slider videos. that makes the AI easier and the core problem stays. The problem isn't sliders is that EA don't care about them and dont bother to even test or set them up.

So that is why i speak about tactics so much in regards to the AI passing, its how the game is built!

This is what i have been disappointed with people here, why i say my strong words on this, i don't see people analysing things in relevant context like this, the fine balance of a game. Its like they see the AI make these super passes and instantly they throw the baby out with the bathwater and the whole game is trash. If its not for you, that's fine, my point is i feel people want to play the game like they used to play the older games where this was seen as a sin, however as i have shown, this isn't 2005 anymore. This is my honest assessment. If people are unhappy with what I've said, well fine. I didn't come here my point on this to make people feel warm and fuzzy, i feel this place in terms of debate goes round in circles.

I'm not best pleased with Konami's communication to the public among other things but another thing i this whole 'fight' between this forum and those connected with the game. With is at PES Universe if by a miracle we become millionaires through what we do, i'll fucking invite half you guys to the mansion we are the same at the end of the day an you can do the same thing as we do.

 

[Peter Withe]

Gameplay videos are lookin really good. But we must play. PES 2019 was totally garbage, maybe one of the worst football games ever. Nothing depends on a player. I'm so romantic to PES because of the retro PES games, and every year we give another chance to them.
But I am so optimistic right now, new name, new game.

See, this is hyperbole (no offence). PES 2019 is definitely not one of the worst football games ever. Have you played Chris Kamara’s Street Soccer? That’s bad, REALLY bad.

I hate PES right now but let’s not get silly.

 

[OBH]

You could ask 100 people ‘what is the most important thing in a football game?’ and you could get 100 different answers. Everything from licences, to the ability to hit 30 years screamers, to damn net physics.


And despite how stupid some might sound to you personally, every answer would still be right.


Reading the last 4 pages of comments just reaffirms something I’ve always believed in - that football games must be THE hardest games to make - because no matter how good it is you will never, ever please everyone.

 

[Ameppe]

Yes there should be more Support options. Something between FUMA and PA1, for instance.
There should be more Gameplay Speed options as well. Something between -1 and 0 and also someething between 0 a +1.
It's what I've been saying all along, the key to a much better game is in greater customization possibilities accross all areas. Gameplay modificators. Cameras (yeah the new camera is very good, but you can't change the height or zoom). Stadium, Players, etc.

I replayed Iss pro evolution 2 lately and that game coming from 2000 on ps1 had a slider with much more degree of speed choice.

 

[janguv]

@klashman69 I have no idea of who you are but the main PES Universe people, you know who they are, Konami/PES shills and would say anything to guarantee that they stay on the right side of Adam Bhatti and company and they’ll make a buck whilst they’re at it. They’re everything that’s wrong with PES now. Back in the day no- one made money from the community, we all share option files and editing techniques to make the game more immersive.
You're just arguing in a circle. Moreover, it's special pleading to excuse an anomaly. First it's "PES Universe are shills", then when you're presented with a counter example, it's "PES Universe guys who aren't like the counterexample are shills". This way of arguing dies the death of a thousand qualifications.

Again, with the "making money" stuff – as Chris points out, it's hardly a profession, selling a few option file packs, which they also release separately for free a bit later. It's an irrelevant point, and it doesn't make them shills. Moreover, they don't need to stay "on the right side of Adam Bhatti" – people criticise the game and still get invited to playtest it again.

@Chris Davies There are definitely shills. And there are people that make money from PES by selling option files etc. It doesn’t matter if it’s full time money or just 1 dollar. It’s wrong, the community never used to be about that.

You're just stating it's wrong, but it's not obviously wrong. You're also presupposing they make money, instead of pumping it back into their service and back to their followers in the form of giveaways. If it's wrong to make a dollar, is it wrong that people have – for many, many years – voluntarily donated to kit makers? If you made a kit pack and released it for free, and I loved it so much, that when I bumped into you I bought you a pint because of the kit pack, would you be too noble to accept it? (Would that even be a noble thing to do?)

 

[Chuny]

I replayed Iss pro evolution 2 lately and that game coming from 2000 on ps1 had a slider with much more degree of speed choice.

Yes, and I'm sure there must be a perfectly reasonable technical explanation for that. But still, doesn't make up for the lack of customisation options we've had ever since they introduced the FOX ENGINE to PES - Oh, and I'm not saying it's the engine's problem. What I am saying is that we've been having these shallow, empty game since PES 2014, which is, coincidentally, when the FOX ENGINE took over.

 

[Bond!JamesBond!]

They need a new engine, FOX isn't cutting it. the body's banging into each other and collision system just doesn't look right, outdated to Fifa in this part. How easy it is to pass though defenses when AI just moves around but makes no attempt to cut off passes. i think the pitch is to big, wish we could compare PES5 pitch size to 2020.

 

[klashman69]

@klashman69 I have no idea of who you are but the main PES Universe people, you know who they are, Konami/PES shills and would say anything to guarantee that they stay on the right side of Adam Bhatti and company and they’ll make a buck whilst they’re at it. They’re everything that’s wrong with PES now. Back in the day no- one made money from the community, we all share option files and editing techniques to make the game more immersive.

I don't think you realise how much your insulting me right now. I am a main PES Universe person.

Back in the day i have always shared files and will share files for free. PES Universe shares files for free however the membership and monetization of accessories and goodies along with USB sticks is important to keep us going so we try to build PES as a game and brand. You can do it yourself, we were just prominent pes people who want to work with Konami to make the game as god as possible.

Whats wrong with PES modding is triple adfly links stealing downloads off people! That is the problem. its pure mercenary now, look at the kit forum here for christ sake, sometimes makes me want to cry! That and on the soccer gaming fifa forums was like an artistic portfolio for people back in the day, now you have people who can barely use photoshop posting triple adfly links along with other vaporware flooding sites for as many links as possible.

Your seeing PES PT Patch and others quitting due to the lack of care Konami put into updates, we are here to change that, we support everything PES we are your voice, you can join us and see for yourself, but you come here and throw abuse without knowing anything what we do, thinking we just want money!

You know how happy i'd be seeing @Chris Davies have his own blog here and getting paid for his views on football games. I want to make this game as big as i can be with PES Universe. I want to do what i can while enjoy this all. But you just see me as a 'shill' who wants to play the game early.

 

[janguv]

Off the ball the AI is fundamentally setup to beat you as quick and as efficiently as possible on the hardest levels. its the fundamental principle of how the AI works on this gen,

That's absolutely true. But don't you think this is a shortcoming, and a lack of innovation from the devs? It's coincided with a change toward possession play and pressing in real life football, where the very best teams are incredibly effective at doing this. But in real life, we've had those same teams lose occasionally to different strategies. Surprising draws and upsets, e.g., when teams like Burnley beat teams like Manchester City. How do they do it? Not by outpassing the opposition, but by executing an effective gameplan that works with the strengths they do have.

Surely that's the scale up in difficulty a lot of people (myself included) want, and think is possible, not just more pass efficiency. Wouldn't it be amazing to play a Master League campaign that was genuinely immersive, because you went into a cup game at Stoke, and you were genuinely nervous because last time you played them in the league, they bullied your deft CBs off the ball and created poaching chances?