Champions League 2012/13

Congratulations to Bayern. They were an incredible team. Watching them live at the Nou Camp was a joy, a performance I won't forget in years. It was like watching our team at its peak again. Dominating every aspect of the game. Totally focused, competitive and most of all.... HUNGRY!

I will definitely enjoy the CL final a lot, because I love the way both teams play and they deserve to be there.

Of course our team was in shambles. Key players were out of gas (Xavi and Iniesta aren't performing well even in the league in the last 2 months) and we missed Puyol, Mascherano, Alba, Abidal, Busquets and Messi. Too many handicaps. I think with all those truly feat our team would have been more competitive, but personally I doubt we would have beaten Bayern. Only if everyone was fit and Messi had been 100% on a good night.

Saying that Messi is not a good team player is quite wrong. He's the leader in assists for the team in the last 4 years and he keeps delivering impressive passes to teammates and creating danger for others to end the play. It's simply that we don't have others around him to finish the job and the level of his teammates is too low now. I truly advise you to watch all machesof Barcelona and realise how Messi continually makes the whole team work, a lot more than Xavi and Iniesta in fact, who are considered amongst the best team players in the world.

What I entirely agree, though, is that the current situation is due to Messi (deliberatedly or not) cannibalising the team. He's so good that he has created a kind of black hole in the tactics, and everything goes through him. Hey, he has won the league almost single handedly, so it's not that bad.

But really, we need to lower down the influence he has in the play and let other actors get in and shine. I too would love to have the likes of Henry and Etoo there, having their share of influence in the team.

But that is what the team should do this summer. If the board and technical staff fails to realize that, we will be over as a big team, and the grandeur of Messi will be inversely proportional to the team. But, if the staff (I would like Bielsa or Pellegrini to replace Tito) manages to turn this trend, then the team could get back to its peak.
 
Lami said:
I'm comparing players based on their individual skills and pure talent. I think Ronaldo is better there. C Ronaldo is good but not on the same level. He can score tons of goals but somewhat lost his ability to skim through players easily.

Ronaldo's legs had to be broken for him to be stopped. He was incredibly threatening. Imo he's much less obvious than Messi.

What I'd give to see Ronaldo play again.
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I watched Ronaldo play live his best season ever. And really, in my oppinion it doesn't get near what Messi has done in any of the last 4 seasons.

For all the highlights you can watch of Ronaldo, you would never get the real picture. For 80 minutes, even in his best season, he was just up there waiting to receive the ball. He didn't assist, he wasn't a playmaker. He just received and scored. And he was the best striker ever seen. Now, Messi does all that (and a lot more goals, actually) and tops it with incredible passing, playmaking and assisting. Messi is active practically all the match. If you watched the highlights of a match you had watched all of Ronaldo for that match. That's it. An impressive striker.

But for me there's no real comparison. Messi is as good a finisher as Ronaldo was and as unstoppable as Ronaldo was. But AT THE SAME TIME he does all that Maradona did. To me Ronaldo + Maradona = Messi.

I've watched a ton of very gifted players during my life, playing live at their peek. Messi is so beyond all the rest...
 
Why has this become a Messi + other's comparison thread, especially when two sides in Bayern and Dotmund have promoted the 'team' philosophy whilst both have great players neither team has that 'star' talisman.
 
YoungGun_UK said:
Why has this become a Messi + other's comparison thread, especially when two sides in Bayern and Dotmund have promoted the 'team' philosophy whilst both have great players neither team has that 'star' talisman.
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You raise a good point, there, which is both teams have stars that are subdued to their teams, and possibly the main reasons why those teams will play the final and not the other 2.

Watching Bayern live on wednseday was great, I could really appreciate in the stadium how the whole team move forwards and backwards, how the wingers turn into sidebacks and how the midfield is a perfect machine with Martinez and Schweinsteiger knowing when to go up and when to go down.

Such an incredible teamwork. Heynckes must be to praise because he's completed the fantastic job that Van Gaal started.
 
the discussion of wich player is the best is ridicilous, as are the ceremony´s who award such players...

1. football is team sport, everyone individual depends on other 10 players on field
2. even if individual skills are high, you might play in a team where you are alone and therefore your skills are not used to full potential.
3. football players play in different positions and take many responsibilities on field. You can´t base someones importance or greatness just on how much goals he scored or how many assist´s he made...what about other aspect´s of the game...

there were plenty players who never shined, but stayed loayal to their clubs and became local heroes...

again individual awards in collective sports are just a show..
 
PIPA23 said:
the discussion of wich player is the best is ridicilous, as are the ceremony´s who award such players...

1. football is team sport, everyone individual depends on other 10 players on field
2. even if individual skills are high, you might play in a team where you are alone and therefore your skills are not used to full potential.
3. football players play in different positions and take many responsibilities on field. You can´t base someones importance or greatness just on how much goals he scored or how many assist´s he made...what about other aspect´s of the game...

there were plenty players who never shined, but stayed loayal to their clubs and became local heroes...

again individual awards in collective sports are just a show..
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Couldn't agree more.

I guess it is human to search "outstanding individuals".

I like the German dominance, because this time they play very attractive football. The Bayern Munchen between this team and their other success team (Beckenbaur, Hoeness, Breitner, Maier, Muller) was a very cynical team that got great results but rarely played attractive football (so did the national team, the 1990 WC team was a sore to the eyes).

German football is sexy nowadays.
 
German football always was very good to watch.. i predict great world cup for Germany in Brazil..

i think it will be hard for any team to beat them, now even Spain, becouse Bayern and BVB players are the core of Germany NT basicly..
 
Enzo said:
Messi got around 25 assists, maybe you should check your facts sheet too? 25 assists for national team, that isnt playmaker you say?
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I never said Messi wasn't a playmaker, but I did say Maradona was. Contrary to popular belief, Maradona was an attacking midfielder whereas Messi is more a spearpoint. Assists doesn't equal "playmaker", a playmaker is one that makes play flow, his main job is not to directly or indirectly score goals. In the NT Messi plays as one of two strikers or one of three strikers, Maradona was a trequartista with one striker ahead and his main work area was further back than Messi's. It's funny how you take something I didn't say and pretend I said it though. The point is, that the comparison between the two is irrelevant, different teams, different positions and different era makes it so. Argentina with Maradona had a great defense, but lacked good offensive players, hence the 3-6-1 / 4-5-1 / 5-4-1 setup, while Argentina with Messi has an over-abundance of offensive players but nearly no defensive players of sufficient quality.
 
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Lami said:
I'm comparing players based on their individual skills and pure talent. I think Ronaldo is better there. C Ronaldo is good but not on the same level. He can score tons of goals but somewhat lost his ability to skim through players easily.

Ronaldo's legs had to be broken for him to be stopped. He was incredibly threatening. Imo he's much less obvious than Messi.

What I'd give to see Ronaldo play again.
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While we are comparing talented players, what about Zidane and Ronaldinho in their prime times?

I remember when Ronaldinho was the star of Barcelona and Messi came in playing beside him, learning and waiting for his opportunity to shine... good times.

And Zidane, what a legend!
 
drekkard said:
I watched Ronaldo play live his best season ever. And really, in my oppinion it doesn't get near what Messi has done in any of the last 4 seasons.

For all the highlights you can watch of Ronaldo, you would never get the real picture. For 80 minutes, even in his best season, he was just up there waiting to receive the ball. He didn't assist, he wasn't a playmaker. He just received and scored. And he was the best striker ever seen. Now, Messi does all that (and a lot more goals, actually) and tops it with incredible passing, playmaking and assisting. Messi is active practically all the match. If you watched the highlights of a match you had watched all of Ronaldo for that match. That's it. An impressive striker.

But for me there's no real comparison. Messi is as good a finisher as Ronaldo was and as unstoppable as Ronaldo was. But AT THE SAME TIME he does all that Maradona did. To me Ronaldo + Maradona = Messi.

I've watched a ton of very gifted players during my life, playing live at their peek. Messi is so beyond all the rest...
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It's not highlights drekkard. It's all the full games I watched through his career before his legs broke and was out for a year plus. Having seen both of them play, why am I not that convinced with Messi's talent as I am with Ronaldo's? Of course Messi's awesome, but I can't see him better with his feet than Ronaldo was. Not talking about passing nor assisting etc. All I'm on about is their feet and what they can do with the ball up against defenders. Ronaldo was harder to predict imo and goes at you harder. Also don't believe Messi scores the same goals Ronaldo does.
 
Lami said:
It's not highlights drekkard. It's all the full games I watched through his career before his legs broke and was out for a year plus. Having seen both of them play, why am I not that convinced with Messi's talent as I am with Ronaldo's? Of course Messi's awesome, but I can't see him better with his feet than Ronaldo was. Not talking about passing nor assisting etc. All I'm on about is their feet and what they can do with the ball up against defenders. Ronaldo was harder to predict imo and goes at you harder. Also don't believe Messi scores the same goals Ronaldo does.
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Sorry but it's cold fact that Messi scores a lot more goals than Ronaldo, and does like 15 times his ammount of assists. For what can they do with their feet, Ronaldo never had the ability that Messi has to dribble, Ronaldo was based a bit more on raw power. That's why after the injuries he acted more as a finisher and stopped doing those goals in which he came through people. I dont know how many full matches you watched of him, but 90% of the time he did nothing, simply waited to receive a good pass. He was the best striker but personally I can't put this over a player like Messi that does everything in the pitch and without being a striker scores 80 goals in a season, when Ronaldo's best was 47.

Plus, and to relate to the debate here, ronaldo didnt make his teams win so many titles, he never performed in champions league, for example, nor win many league titles. If he had never injured it could have been one of the biggest ever, but he ended being very limited as a player, very focused only in finishing.
 
Sabatasso said:
Ronaldinho was unbelievably flamboyant and entertaining, but he wasn't consistent enough for my taste.
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I think he was pretty consistent between 2002-2006, for about four years he played imho spectacular football, led his team to numerous victories in the spanish league and championsleague, got crowned as best player of europe and world numerous times... His fall began in 2006 when his nightlife-activities got so excessive that he couldn't train well anymore.

I guess he fell for the seductions of money, alcohol and women, but before that he was imho awesome and entertaining, a machine.

His downfall in 2006 allowed Messi to step up and take over...
 
His downfall in 2006 allowed Messi to step up and take over...
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Nothing bad to say about legends like Ronaldo, Ronaldinho or Zidane (who's still my favorite player), but if you try to be as objective as you can be, just look at how Messi has dominated the game ever since making it to Barca's starting eleven.
He's won the Champions League multiple times, is part of the side that made it to the semis (and often beyond, logically) six times in a row, evaporates every goal record like it's just everyday business, gives bucket loads of assists on top of that and - most importantly - after the current big losses for Barcelona, in which Messi couldn't play his usual part, we're actually discussing the seemingly exposed FACT that the guy is so good, that he has become the heart and sole focus of this fantastic team's every attack and playing style in general. All that at 25; with half his professional career still ahead of him. His technique is one of a kind as well, only thing is he is rarely fancy in his dribbling, which isn't stopping him to take on whole defensive lines on his own multiple times pretty much every match.

I did grow to like Messi over the years, but not in a sense that I'm biased in any way toward rating the guy. No, it's more like: How can you not be impressed by him? No matter how far I look back in my personal history with the sport - Messi outshines everybody, to be honest. And I have no trouble admitting that. To me, it often seems like Messi's rare bad performances or Barca underachieving in general are always exaggerated to a point where bias of the negative kind seems to take over and just runs rampant. Not so much on these forums, but I think everybody here can relate; the pure hatred for the guy on some platforms is so utterly outlandish. What in the world does a player need to do/achieve to be at least universally accepted as "good" (let alone world class ...).
Like most players, Messi will have an easier time to be rated (or "judged", if you will) truly objectively long after he retired. When his achievements had had some time to be put into context by a future generation of talent. Because there might still be room for improvement.
 
Rentalkid said:
Nothing bad to say about legends like Ronaldo, Ronaldinho or Zidane (who's still my favorite player), but if you try to be as objective as you can be, just look at how Messi has dominated the game ever since making it to Barca's starting eleven.
He's won the Champions League multiple times, is part of the side that made it to the semis (and often beyond, logically) six times in a row, evaporates every goal record like it's just everyday business, gives bucket loads of assists on top of that and - most importantly - after the current big losses for Barcelona, in which Messi couldn't play his usual part, we're actually discussing the seemingly exposed FACT that the guy is so good, that he has become the heart and sole focus of this fantastic team's every attack and playing style in general. All that at 25; with half his professional career still ahead of him. His technique is one of a kind as well, only thing is he is rarely fancy in his dribbling, which isn't stopping him to take on whole defensive lines on his own multiple times pretty much every match.

I did grow to like Messi over the years, but not in a sense that I'm biased in any way toward rating the guy. No, it's more like: How can you not be impressed by him? No matter how far I look back in my personal history with the sport - Messi outshines everybody, to be honest. And I have no trouble admitting that. To me, it often seems like Messi's rare bad performances or Barca underachieving in general are always exaggerated to a point where bias of the negative kind seems to take over and just runs rampant. Not so much on these forums, but I think everybody here can relate; the pure hatred for the guy on some platforms is so utterly outlandish. What in the world does a player need to do/achieve to be at least universally accepted as "good" (let alone world class ...).
Like most players, Messi will have an easier time to be rated (or "judged", if you will) truly objectively long after he retired. When his achievements had had some time to be put into context by a future generation of talent. Because there might still be room for improvement.
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You need to be careful in your analysis. Yes, Messi scored many more goals, and he has more agility but Messi became a striker relying on the back of brilliant midfielders like Iniesta and Xavi. Ronaldinho was not so much of a striker, he was more a midfielder and so his scoring-results is naturally much lower.

And he hadn't that much brilliant midfield-support, the context and setup is different.

The other difference is that Messi is much more focused on achieving results, goals, while Ronaldinho was mostly interested in enjoying the gameplay and always trying to invent new tricks and ways to deal with the ball and opponents.

Of course Messi is also one of the greatest player in the world, not only in scoring, also in assisting and keeping the team together, but there was something about Ronaldinho, something magical that let you always smile when he is on the ball, that even the opponents would applaud him in awe.
 
Ronaldinho had Yaya Touré, Deco, Xavi and sometimes Iniesta as midfield partners. He had Eto'o and Larsson upfront.
Messi currently has Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets.

One could say that Ronaldinho was surrounded by at laest as much individual talent as Messi.
 
guys, you have to agree on a criteria of comparaison, either individual and collective achievements (goals , assists, trophies, ..) or techniques and talent and joy-to-watch.

personnally I think the likes of Zidane, Ronaldinho, Ronaldo .. have much better techniques and talent and joyful gameplay than Messi and CR..

while Messi and CR, have more achievements and "numbers" .. but, this may pose a question on the level of the leagues and defense nowadays ..
this huge number of goals by Messi and CR, means in my opinion that football changed last 6 years ..
I don't doubt CR & Messi's talent, but it's an important point to put in mind before comparing them to their predecessors ..
 
jihado86 said:
personnally I think the likes of Zidane, Ronaldinho, Ronaldo .. have much better techniques and talent and joyful gameplay than Messi and CR..
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LOL.
Zidane comes close. The other two will be forgotten in 20 years.
I have seen the 1970 WC winning team. Both Ronaldinho and Ronaldo would not make the the first eleven of that team...
Tostao was much, much better than Ronaldo, who knows his name now.

Pele - Messi - Maradonna - Zidane - Cruijff - Beckenbauer - Di Stefano - Zico - Cr Ronaldo.
 
Ronaldo will be forgotten?

Are we talking about the record breaking, World Cup winning Brazilian with 60+ international goals to his name?

Only injuries stopped him from being the undisputed greatest ever Striker. For me, and many others, he is regardless.


Ronaldinho was untouchable for a few of seasons. If only he kept that up. The most entertaining footballer in my lifetime
 
Ronaldinho is still up there, he's currently having the season of his life winning games on his own with Atlético, it won't be long before you hear of him again.
 
Original Ronaldo started resembling something similar to Messi in his debut season at Inter Milan, he was a 'trequartista' and just phenomenal. I honestly think he was the best player ever had he continued during that spell without getting those injuries.

but.

That was before Messi who is just on another level to anything I think the game has ever seen, I mean he's probably better than that peak Ronaldo im talking about with a gap too, he scores ridiculous goals nearly every week, goals which if scored by other players would be a lot more memorable but because he churns out so many of them were just used to seeing him do something ridiculous its become crazy "ow Messi beats 4-5 players to score another goal...".

I think he's also fucked up expectations for talent coming through, I know its not everyone but whenever I praise certain talent to less 'avid' watchers their barely impressed because 'their not Messi good' and I we'll see someone on his level for a while to be honest.
 
For me you either have to say that Messi is streets ahead of Ronaldo, or that La Liga has seriously fallen in quality outside of the big teams.

You can't claim a striker is better than a wide forward/support striker who scores dozens more goals in the same league.

I actually think they're of a similar ability, but that the competition that Messi faces probably 8 out of every 10 weeks is far worse.

If you don't agree, how does Cristiano Ronaldo score as many goals as well?
 
Godotelli said:
Ronaldo will be forgotten?

Are we talking about the record breaking, World Cup winning Brazilian with 60+ international goals to his name?
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Who was the record breaking World Cup Winning forward before him ?

Gerd Muller.

Most fans only heard of Muller when Messi broke his record this season (oh and a record that Ronaldo didn't break, having seen both play, Muller was better than Ronaldo, perhaps because he played in better teams).
 
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