What pressure would be on KONAMI if....

[klashman69]

Klash, you're basically denying that there's room for improvement in these area when Niero essentially highlighted the main criticisms that people still have with PES. Nobody can deny that PES has fewer and a less variety of animations than FIFA, or that the controls, movement, and responsiveness aren't quite up to par with other sports games, and I'm not speaking of just FIFA.

You may be satisfied with these areas but the reviews and comments made all over the web since the game's release indicate that not only is there room for improvement in these areas but that they are important areas for Konami to focus on. There's absolutely no reason why improvements in these areas can't be made without changing the spirit of the franchise.

Did you get my PM?

Also i do normally put down that PES clearly lacks animations, that's obvious, yes! there's plenty of room for improvement! I thn i've said this too manytimes, but it's so obvious i dosent really need to be said! That's the only thing gameplay wise which needs a big upgrade next year for me! I was being a bit brief!

Not denying it man!,

Also has Niero considered that if PES tried to beat FIFA at it's own game in having beautiful animations and fluidity but taking away all the tactical elements and individuality etc..! It would've been out of business or it would be on it's last legs! Think about it. why would anyone bother with PES if it was a FIFA clone with less licenses, less teams, lack of playability and limited online options?

 

[mfmaxpower]

I don't think there's any converting the people who are playing FIFA 11 over PES 2011, obviously gameplay depth and realism mean very little to them, and that is the main thing PES has in abundance that FIFA completely lacks, and it always was this way on PS2 and will probably stay like this for the forseeable future...

Um, I bought PES this year for the first time since 2008 and I know others have done so as well, so that's not entirely true. Don't be so quick to put every FIFA player in a box - I'm playing both games this year and if Konami makes enough improvements for next year and EA does not, it's not beyond reason that I wont buy FIFA again. After all, i didn't buy FIFA until 08 and I know that I'm not alone. And it wasn't just the animations that's had me playing FIFA these past few years.

As long as the licensing situation remains basically the same PES will stay second best in sales, and of course you guys are right that graphics sell games, but there is no law I know of that says a game can't have accessible controls, quality graphics and animations, and depth too.

I know there's a lot of guys on these forums saying "PES is back" but the truth is there's a lot of people out there who want it to be back but remain on the fence, like myself. I personally know a few people, and from comments in forums including even the official EA forums I know there's many out there, who are itching to be sold on the idea of switching to PES, whether they are simply sick of EA or are former fans, but are not fully won over/back by this year's game.

True, there's a shit load of kids out there that will never be interested in PES but lets not forget that Konami completely bungled the transition to this gen of consoles, giving good reason for many gamers to not take the series seriously. A game can have all the depth in the world but that doesn't count for shit when it's got major issues elsewhere. Konami imo still hasn't fully recovered from 2008 and the console switch in general, but when/if it does there's a good amount of FIFA players that will be interested - after all, in the end we're all just football fans looking for a good game.

 

[Niero]

Ive just lost to 3-1 to a person using THIS FORMATION:

Now explain to me IF a REAL manager used the above formation in his teams would or wouldnt his team be BRUTALLY RAPED?
This is the beauty of PES2011....

 

[mfmaxpower]

Ive just lost to 3-1 to a person using THIS FORMATION:

Um, wrong thead maybe?

 

[Niero]

Um, wrong thead maybe?

This needs to be fixed though...But JAPAN doesnt care...It will feed KONAMI even if KONAMI made PES2008 every year...

 

[romagnoli]

This needs to be fixed though...But JAPAN doesnt care...It will feed KONAMI even if KONAMI made PES2008 every year...

You could have beaten this formation, no problem. 4-2-2-2 is your friend. Pass the ball either side of the midfield and switch it if he gets close.

It's by the by though. FIFA isn't selling more because it gets formations right, is it?

 

[klashman69]

Ive just lost to 3-1 to a person using THIS FORMATION:
Now explain to me IF a REAL manager used the above formation in his teams would or wouldnt his team be BRUTALLY RAPED?
This is the beauty of PES2011....

No that's just your fault you lost. Yoou should be able to deal with formations like that and adapt your tactics to counter his! Blaming the game for you inabillity to handle a gamer with won't win you any sympathy with me.
I've lost to silly formations online and apart from the laggy games all the
Ones I lost I blamed myself for not putting away the numerous chances
I squandered. You act as if these formations are unplayable

 

[Niero]

No that's just your fault you lost. Yoou should be able to deal with formations like that and adapt your tactics to counter his! Blaming the game for you inabillity to handle a gamer with won't win you any sympathy with me.
I've lost to silly formations online and apart from the laggy games all the
Ones I lost I blamed myself for not putting away the numerous chances
I squandered. You act as if these formations are unplayable

The off the ball movement and co player AI must be coded to NOT allow these joke formations.
PES2011 allows people to use them. They work sometimes. In real football the above formation would be laughed and ridiculed.

 

[Jamezinho]

The off the ball movement and co player AI must be coded to NOT allow these joke formations.
PES2011 allows people to use them. They work sometimes. In real football the above formation would be laughed and ridiculed.

Are you serious? It's just a tweaked 4-3-3, it's not something unusual. There's absolutely no width in middle so I'd have played either a straight 4-4-2 or a 4-2-3-1 and dominated the midfield.

And it's not as if you can't do such equally rotten formations in FIFA either. As long as you can't play 5 attackers or something stupid like that then I'm happy for formations to be adjusted any way the player wants.

 

[Jimmy G-Force]

Ive just lost to 3-1 to a person using THIS FORMATION:

Now explain to me IF a REAL manager used the above formation in his teams would or wouldnt his team be BRUTALLY RAPED?
This is the beauty of PES2011....

You know what, your exactly right there. The beauty of PES 2011's tactical variables means that with a footballing brain, you can very easily counteract this formation, and as you so eloquently put it, 'brutally rape' it.

I played a Division 3 guy last week who had a 'Superstar' team and a 5-1-4 formation. He got battered 4-0, and to be honest, he was very lucky it wasnt 7 or 8.

 

[Ern Dog]

The off the ball movement and co player AI must be coded to NOT allow these joke formations.
PES2011 allows people to use them. They work sometimes. In real football the above formation would be laughed and ridiculed.

You are absolutely right! The next PES should limit the formations you can use and put restrictions on player movements! That will stop people saying, and I quote

They call it a robotic ugly moving invisible walls hockey game.
Oh and KONAMI will HAVE to make FREE movement of players WITHOUT R1+R2....

 

[Niero]

You are absolutely right! The next PES should limit the formations you can use and put restrictions on player movements! That will stop people saying, and I quote

Yet another one from a huge list of longball tennis abusers....
You quote out of context and pretend that I wont notice?
Read my post again slowly and MAYBE I say MAYBE you will understand what I said.

 

[Jimmy G-Force]

Yet another one from a huge list of longball tennis abusers....
You quote out of context and pretend that I wont notice?
Read my post again slowly and MAYBE I say MAYBE you will understand what I said.

This formation is even easier to breakdown, Jeez, you could rip that high defence apart with a even half decent passer. D'Alessandro would have a field day here.

 

[Ern Dog]

Yet another one from a huge list of longball tennis abusers....
You quote out of context and pretend that I wont notice?
Read my post again slowly and MAYBE I say MAYBE you will understand what I said.

How is that quote out of context? You say you want Konami to compensate for your tactical ineptitude by coding the AI not to allow certain formations to work, that would hinder your player movement. You earlier said that people say the game has invisible walls and there is a need to free up player movement.

I just played a guy using Barca and a similar formation.

It was soo easy to play against it was unreal, I had all the time and space to do anything that I chose. Just because you do not understand the tactics system is not a good reason for making a change to the AI that would not allow certain formations. And what if they did do this? You would be on here complaining about not having the freedom to play how you want. stop trolling mate.

 

[Niero]

How is that quote out of context? You say you want Konami to compensate for your tactical ineptitude by coding the AI not to allow certain formations to work, that would hinder your player movement. You earlier said that people say the game has invisible walls and there is a need to free up player movement.

I just played a guy using Barca and a similar formation.

It was soo easy to play against it was unreal, I had all the time and space to do anything that I chose. Just because you do not understand the tactics system is not a good reason for making a change to the AI that would not allow certain formations. And what if they did do this? You would be on here complaining about not having the freedom to play how you want. stop trolling mate.

I didnt say that YOUR movement should be hindered. Your reading ability is quite low....
What I said was that the AI PLAYER movement and positioning MUST cover the midfield better.
The MOVEMENT of player controlled must be free.
Geez its like 1st grade level of reading.

 

[Ern Dog]

Excuse me MR "you cant read" where exactly did I say anything about movement of the player being controlled? You said they need to alter the AI so that it is not possible to use certain formations, that will stop your team mates moving in a free way and stick them on rails to prevent them from going to certain areas. I was using your quote about invisible walls which is exactly what there will be to stop the AI moving into areas of the pitch that allow people to play these formations. Where you talk about using R1 & R2 for free movement I assume you mean L1 & R2 to make your players run on.

 

[klashman69]

I didnt say that YOUR movement should be hindered. Your reading ability is quite low....
What I said was that the AI PLAYER movement and positioning MUST cover the midfield better.
The MOVEMENT of player controlled must be free.
Geez its like 1st grade level of reading.

Your dug yourself a huge hole here while your not going to get out of anytime soon!

Players should be able to play how they want! If a player wants to play PES 2011 in a silly arcade manor, he can do it. Just what i really like about the game is, that his stupid 4-1-5 formations don't work! They are very easy to break down and highly ineffective against someone who understands the tactics.

Your just pissed you can't beat these idiots, get off your high horse, your obviously not very good! Try to understand how the tactics work because if you were half decent at the game you wouldn't moan about these guys!

"The AI must cover the midfield better." That's a comment from someone who simply DOES NOT UNDERSTAND THE TACTICS SYSTEM !

 

[Jamezinho]

This is too far off-topic from the original post. I'm not sure that a supposedly dubious 4-3-3 formation is going to bring about the global downfall of PES.

 

[Ern Dog]

"The AI must cover the midfield better." That's a comment from someone who simply DOES NOT UNDERSTAND THE TACTICS SYSTEM !

Exactly.

This is too far off-topic from the original post. I'm not sure that a supposedly dubious 4-3-3 formation is going to bring about the global downfall of PES.

Yes its clear what his agenda was when starting this thread, he just wanted to bash the game.

 

[klashman69]

This is too far off-topic from the original post. I'm not sure that a supposedly dubious 4-3-3 formation is going to bring about the global downfall of PES.

FIFA 10 was a roaring success commercially and it's most effective formation as the infamous 6-0-4!

No, you couldn't beat it playing good football like in PES 2011, you were forced to fight fire with fire

Also does he still not understand if Konami decided to go down EA's route of animations over substance they would be OUT OF BUISNESS!

 

[Niero]

FIFA 10 was a roaring success commercially and it's most effective formation as the infamous 6-0-4!

No, you couldn't beat it playing good football like in PES 2011, you were forced to fight fire with fire

Also does he still not understand if Konami decided to go down EA's route of animations over substance they would be OUT OF BUISNESS!

So any game that has animations doesnt have substance? Are you serious?
Oh and Its impossible for me to reason with people that dont even know what R1+R2 in PES stands for....

 

[Jimmy G-Force]

So any game that has animations doesnt have substance? Are you serious?
Oh and Its impossible for me to reason with people that dont even know what R1+R2 in PES stands for....

Just say Super-Cancel then, some people, like me, dont use default buttons, which makes your statement, in it's literal sense, inaccurate.

 

[mfmaxpower]

FIFA 10 was a roaring success commercially and it's most effective formation as the infamous 6-0-4!

No, you couldn't beat it playing good football like in PES 2011, you were forced to fight fire with fire

Also does he still not understand if Konami decided to go down EA's route of animations over substance they would be OUT OF BUISNESS!

Please Klash, improving the game's animations wouldn't be the downfall of PES. I'm not sure where you got the idea that anyone in here suggested Konami put style over substance - improving one does not necessarily mean hurting the other; style and substance are NOT mutually exclusive.

On the last gen systems PES had a great balance between style and substance. You could argue - as many people have done - that Konami still hasn't quite achieved a similarly successful balance this generation.

And how did this turn into a formations thread!?

 

[romagnoli]

So any game that has animations doesnt have substance? Are you serious?

No, but if a game values animations over substance, then it is much harder to get the depth of the game up to a high standard.

PES's of recent times have been borked in several areas - fixing the gameplay itself is the priority. Animations will come with time.

 

[klashman69]

So any game that has animations doesnt have substance? Are you serious?

Don't even try twisting what I'm saying! Don't even bother trying to make out your right because your wrong!

A football game needs these things:

1. Tactics and Formations

2. Player Attributes. Individuality
How well are players stats replicated ingame?

3. Animations

4. Ball and player physics

5. Game function balance
How well replicated are shooting, passing, crossing errors etc... How teams structure their attacks, what are the methods to score? How intelligent overall is the AI on your team and with the CPU

-----

PES 2011 does 3/5 perfectly! (ones in bold) It does the Animations ok, but could be much better and gets the physics part right to a very good standard (some room for improvement but it's very good).

Now has any football game ever got all 5 vital elements perfectly right? No, never and when one game does that it will be the best GAME ever released and that would be perfection! Everyone would love that, but it's not easy to do that.

Konami put so much into getting the tactics, game balance and individuality right the animations were made basic to account for everything! Ask yourself why did they ditch so many of them from PES 2010? Some animations in PES 2010 were totally dreadful, but some were very, very good! Yes, the good ones weren't carried over, in order for PES 2011's fundamentals not to be stuck in rails like every other football that has even been released is!

Developing the animations system FIFA has isn't easy and has taken years to fine tune, and it's not perfect! Developing game balance, making player stats matter, developing the tactical game and building a animation system which runs exclusivity on player stats is a HARD thing to do, and to make it look smooth and beautiful is going to take time. So your claims about the animations are nothing more than silly!

Now my point which you stupidly tried to twist was that if Konami focused only on the animations and ditched the other 3 parts they get so right. What would the resulting game be? A fifa clone! and why would anyone buy PES then if FIFA doe what PES does but has more teams and licenses?

@ mfmaxpower what i just said should answer you point. In no way did i say i don't want PES's animations to improve because everyone knows they should, in fact i've said this a few times now and you seem to ignore it for some reason. Niero is being rather pathetic and is ignorantly blaring that Konami should just focus all on animations only!

Also it turned into a formation thread because like i said Niero is whining about being beaten by poor players with silly formations, players that others like me beat with ease! He's blaming Konami for not properly learning how the tactics work!

 

[Jimmy G-Force]

Well this thread no longer does what it says on the tin.....

 

[Niero]

What makes me sad and pessimist about PES future is JAPAN....Which will buy anything KONAMI throws at them...
WE2008 outsold FIFA 08 by a HUGE margin....Everyone can see that Japanese gamers dont look at the quality of the product. They only care about the country that the publisher is from.
Now imagine if Japan turned its back to KONAMI in the years 2007-2010 and bought FIFA...
My god KONAMI would be in insane trouble. No oxygen for them.
Oh and Latin America with its 90% of piracy rates cant be called as a viable market.

 

[mfmaxpower]

What makes me sad and pessimist about PES future is JAPAN....Which will buy anything KONAMI throws at them...
WE2008 outsold FIFA 08 by a HUGE margin....Everyone can see that Japanese gamers dont look at the quality of the product. They only care about the country that the publisher is from.
Now imagine if Japan turned its back to KONAMI in the years 2007-2010 and bought FIFA...
My god KONAMI would be in insane trouble. No oxygen for them.
Oh and Latin America with its 90% of piracy rates cant be called as a viable market.

Sorry but this is just one pile of B.S. after the next.

 

[mfmaxpower]

No, but if a game values animations over substance, then it is much harder to get the depth of the game up to a high standard.

PES's of recent times have been borked in several areas - fixing the gameplay itself is the priority. Animations will come with time.

Well they've got a year!

Seriously though, gameplay of course should always be the #1 priority - always - but imo gameplay this year is pretty damn good and not what's holding PES back at this point.

I don't think any PES fan wants Konami to spend the whole year working only on animations, but, to revisit the earlier theme of this thread regarding market competition, if Konami wishes to regain market share in markets where it doesn't have licenses, PES is going to need to work on making a better first impression. What's a reason for why Konami can't do that without sacrificing its standards in depth and gameplay?

On the previuos gen of systems I never felt like PES hadn't fulfilled its potential. Personally I don't feel like PES has fulfilled its potential on this gen yet and I'd like to see it happen before we move on to the next gen, which may only be a couple years away.

 

[Jamezinho]

What makes me sad and pessimist about PES future is JAPAN....Which will buy anything KONAMI throws at them...
WE2008 outsold FIFA 08 by a HUGE margin....Everyone can see that Japanese gamers dont look at the quality of the product. They only care about the country that the publisher is from.
Now imagine if Japan turned its back to KONAMI in the years 2007-2010 and bought FIFA...
My god KONAMI would be in insane trouble. No oxygen for them.
Oh and Latin America with its 90% of piracy rates cant be called as a viable market.

Eh? You're getting quite absurd now. Talk about sweeping generalisations.

It's fair to say that the Japanese market has different tastes to the Western market, but it was that very market that gave rise to ISS, WE and PES and no-one was complaining about the Japanese influence back in the good old days.

FIFA will never sell well in Japan because it lacks the Japanese national team license and the J-League. It's as simple as that.

Oh, and if Latin America isn't a viable market then Konami would not sell the game there, but seeing as Konami have just spent out on the Copa Libertadores license I think it's quite obvious that there is money to be made from PES in that part of the world.