What pressure would be on KONAMI if....

N

Niero

Banned
29 October 2009
...Japan bought fifa at same rates as UK? Would it make them improve or shut down completely the PES division?
 
Niero said:
...Japan bought fifa at same rates as UK? Would it make them improve or shut down completely the PES division?
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What you are forgetting big time is for you to get a proper rounded view of PES and FIFA you need to remember theres a 'view' on the internet forums. and a pretty much totally different view when it comes to your mates, people you play the game with.

You seem to believe PES isn't a well known game in the UK and everyone buys FIFA there. I don't think you could be further than the truth tbh! Most of the people i know in real life have pretty much always played PES. Even people who aren't into football much. PES seems to have this very huge, faithful fanbase, people who aren't even it football games much but always play that game!

On forums it's totally different! Because there are not only people who tend to follow what the leaders say! (It's 100% true it really is!) Also I guarantee 95% of people who posts their views of FIFA and PES on these forums are very keen, and i stress KEEN enthusiasts of the game! Even the dudes who said. (i'm ot all that into games, or, i'm not great at football games) I can gurantee you everyone here is better than teh joe aveerage player. Because Joe average players wouldn't even dream of joining a forum and discussing the game, even if he loves it.

My flatmates love PES, they love PES 2011 but there's no way they would every even dream of joining a forum and discussing it, they just aren't into it as much as i am!

It's no negative, i just think people forget that Internet forum discussion is still very difference compared to face to face discussion with people and our mates!

FIFA will always outsell PES, but PES will again always sell! To answer your question FIFA will never outsell PES in Japan, mainly because there's no Japan in the game or any sort of J-League license :COOL: ! Konamai isn't just a Japanese company it's a part of Japanesee life!
 
fifa easily outsells pes here in uk. the week PES hit stores fifa still topped the charts by along way even with a 66% drop off on its first week sales. that shows you how big the gulf is between the two regarding sales
 
gogbog said:
fifa easily outsells pes here in uk. the week PES hit stores fifa still topped the charts by along way even with a 66% drop off on its first week sales. that shows you how big the gulf is between the two regarding sales
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Yes, like my point said still, if most people i know around my age (18-25,6) still play PES almost exclusively although some smartly left PES after the 2008 crap. FIFA has always sold much more but never did or ever has never really established itself amount people as the football fans choice though!

This isn't no PES vs FIFA war, in fact would be good to know what everyone else's mates say about which game they prefer!
 
no one i know plays pes, a few did in the iss days and ps2 days but since pes/fifa 08 they have been fifa fans.

its a shame because the new pes is actually quite good but no one i know will give it a chance due to them enjoying fifa so much.

i guess its the equivelent to what we would have been like if we heard fifa was a good game back in the ps2 days, we wouldnt have bothered with it since we where having so much fun with pes
 
haha, you guys are funny. I think Konami already knows that EA/FIFA is outselling them every year. Nothing new to them. Konami shouldn't be worried about this. They know, if they continue to produce decent sequels, real true PES fans will always buy it and be permanent customers. Because FIFA is flashy, has all the teams, licenses any person would buy this regarding if the gameplay sucks.

But again we have to be realistic that money talks bullshit walks. Konami BETTER produce and continue to improve, if they don't they will be out of business when it comes to PES/WE and the days of PES will be over.
 
iluvnineties said:
haha, you guys are funny. I think Konami already knows that EA/FIFA is outselling them every year. Nothing new to them. Konami shouldn't be worried about this. They know, if they continue to produce decent sequels, real true PES fans will always buy it and be permanent customers. Because FIFA is flashy, has all the teams, licenses any person would buy this regarding if the gameplay sucks.

But again we have to be realistic that money talks bullshit walks. Konami BETTER produce and continue to improve, if they don't they will be out of business when it comes to PES/WE and the days of PES will be over.
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^^This, basically.

As long as FIFA has the licenses and EA is the leviathan that it is, FIFA will always outsell PES globally.

On the other hand, one of the Konami producers (can't remember if it was Murphy) earlier this year was talking about how until the last few years (basically the disaster that was 2008) PES outsold FIFA in some of the continental markets, like France, Spain, Italy, and Germany. The Konami producer basically said that their goal is to win back the "hardcore" fans, which hopefully will bring back those markets, though it's not as if they're not remaining competitive there despite the last few years.

Here's what it boils down to though: EA will always dominate the US market unless something drastic happens, and the importance of the US market speaks for itself, especially with the growing popularity of the sport there; meanwhile, the licenses and EA's close relationship with the EPL mean the UK market will be dominated by FIFA as well.

So basically EA will continue to dominate unless they 1) lose the licenses; 2) tank financially; or 3) start releasing absolutely abysmal games. None of those are likely any time soon, the status quo will remain unchanged, but Konami are used to being the underdogs, so as long as Konami busts their butts and don't get caught napping again like 2008, PES will be fine.
 
mfmaxpower said:
^^This, basically.

As long as FIFA has the licenses and EA is the leviathan that it is, FIFA will always outsell PES globally.

On the other hand, one of the Konami producers (can't remember if it was Murphy) earlier this year was talking about how until the last few years (basically the disaster that was 2008) PES outsold FIFA in some of the continental markets, like France, Spain, Italy, and Germany. The Konami producer basically said that their goal is to win back the "hardcore" fans, which hopefully will bring back those markets, though it's not as if they're not remaining competitive there despite the last few years.

Here's what it boils down to though: EA will always dominate the US market unless something drastic happens, and the importance of the US market speaks for itself, especially with the growing popularity of the sport there; meanwhile, the licenses and EA's close relationship with the EPL mean the UK market will be dominated by FIFA as well.

So basically EA will continue to dominate unless they 1) lose the licenses; 2) tank financially; or 3) start releasing absolutely abysmal games. None of those are likely any time soon, the status quo will remain unchanged, but Konami are used to being the underdogs, so as long as Konami busts their butts and don't get caught napping again like 2008, PES will be fine.
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Agreed, with FIFA in the UK, the game all all Scottish clubs, all football league clubs and some Irish clubs being available. You can see how it appeals to everyone. Since people just wont be able to play with their club and playing the league they follow on PES! Especially to the casual crowd who are drawn in by the bombardment of adverts.

In the US anyone who buys PES! or any sell in that market should be considered a huge success, same goes to Mexico since EA have that market on complete lock-down!
 
IMO if fifa outsold PES in Japan KONAMI would be out of their MOST important breadbasket...
The starvation would lead to amazing changes in all fields....
 
Niero said:
IMO if fifa outsold PES in Japan KONAMI would be out of their MOST important breadbasket...
The starvation would lead to amazing changes in all fields....
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Again like i said, that's like EA being outsold by PES in North America, it's not going to happen and if it did the franchise would be in danger!
 
I heard PES 2011 is selling like crazy on South America. Heard it was the "fastest selling Sports game ever" over there. Konami deffo won their bet on the Libertadores license.
 
klashman69 said:
Yes, like my point said still, if most people i know around my age (18-25,6) still play PES almost exclusively although some smartly left PES after the 2008 crap. FIFA has always sold much more but never did or ever has never really established itself amount people as the football fans choice though!

This isn't no PES vs FIFA war, in fact would be good to know what everyone else's mates say about which game they prefer!
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I heard the UK sales numbers at the weekend. Shocking. The ratio is something like 10:1. PES still has certain countries in Europe but FIFA has closed the gaps there as well.

Others have said the same thing before but I'll repeat it anyway - I don't think the release day experiment worked. The ad campaign, certainly in the UK, was atrocious, but even so there's the fundamental problem of people not wanting to buy two football games on the same day.
 
FIFA has always outsold PES, although not to the extent we see nowadays. I certainly preferred FIFA 10 to PES 2010 but FIFA 11 proved to be a minor improvement over FIFA 10 if not a major step backwards.
Also PES 2011, with all its bugs and deficiencies wins this year's competition for me.
 
Isn't talking about which game you prefer pretty off-topic? I thought we were talking about sales.

FIFA has always outsold, sure, but it's getting a bit mental now. There isn't anywhere in Europe where PES have a clear lead anymore, and quite a lot where they're being wholly outsold.

I guess the point people are making is that as long as PES makes enough money to keep going, it will keep going. But it'd be very naive to ignore that a lot of those FIFA sales are PES-to-FIFA converts.

Does anybody know what PES's sales were like last year?
 
romagnoli said:
I heard the UK sales numbers at the weekend. Shocking. The ratio is something like 10:1. PES still has certain countries in Europe but FIFA has closed the gaps there as well.

Others have said the same thing before but I'll repeat it anyway - I don't think the release day experiment worked. The ad campaign, certainly in the UK, was atrocious, but even so there's the fundamental problem of people not wanting to buy two football games on the same day.
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I know, did you see how poor the advert was :CONFUSE: not only was it barley shown! But it's like there are people out there who didn't even know the new PES was even out!
 
The latest WENB podcast discussed this issue in great depth and was a very good listen. Fifa outsold PES 8 to 1 on opening day sales in the UK which I think took everybody by surprise, but Konami's decision to release PES2011 one week after FIFA11 was surely a major contributing factor and a disastrous one at that. In these hard economic times it was always going to be suicide for PES to go head-to-head with Fifa and they should have made every effort to get the game out well before it. When the public has less money to spend many people aren't going to buy two football games in the space of seven days.

However the situation in Europe was closer with PES selling much more competitively compared to Fifa. Remember the UK is only one country and while Fifa is dominant here, PES is a much bigger player in many other territories in Europe, South America and Asia.

Also remember that PES doesn't have to achieve the same sales figures as Fifa because EA's overheads are much, much greater (licenses, marketing etc).

I think PES2011 will be a slow burner in terms of sales. Fifa is more accessible and offers instant gratification but after a few weeks can feel shallow and as if it has nothing new to offer. PES2011 on the other hand requires time and patience to get a feel for but once you get hooked in I think the depth it offers, especially single player, far outweighs anything Fifa can do.

I'm sure PES2011 will achieve slow but steady sales once the Fifa honeymoon period passes.
 
Jamezinho said:
I think PES2011 will be a slow burner in terms of sales. Fifa is more accessible and offers instant gratification but after a few weeks can feel shallow and as if it has nothing new to offer. PES2011 on the other hand requires time and patience to get a feel for but once you get hooked in I think the depth it offers, especially single player, far outweighs anything Fifa can do.
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this is exactly how it panned out for me, at first sight it looked nice and played a good game but after so many hours into it, it lost its charm and the exploits of the game became clear. i think this is the first time in years i can say i'm quite happy to play against the computer and not get tired of it

license doesn't win for me, i like football, not fancy sponsers
 
romagnoli said:
Does anybody know what PES's sales were like last year?
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Here we go: http://gamrreview.vgchartz.com/sales/33403/pro-evolution-soccer-2010/

That has total sales through 10 weeks on the PS3 at 2.23m + 0.77m on the 360 for a total of 3 million copies on the next gen systems. PES 2010 sold an additional 1.24m on the PS2 and .38m on the Wii, for a total of 4.62m copies sold on all consoles through 10 weeks. PES sold an additional .65m on the PSP for a grand total of 5.27m on everything (though it has no data for PES on the DS; was it made for the DS?)

*Disclaimer: I don't know how reliable this website is or its data, I simply found it through a quick google search.

FIFA 10 meanwhile sold 3.55m on the PS3 and 2.7m on the 360, plus .89m on the Wii and 1.29m on the PS2; then another .77m on the PSP and .5m on the DS, for a total of 8.43m on consoles and 9.7m total.

If this data is correct the situation last year wasn't as bad as I thought for PES, granted this data is only for the first 10 weeks of sales. Still, I've seen reports with EA saying they outsold Konami 4:1 and similar types of boasts.

Has anyone seen different/contrasting/supporting data?

I might look a little later but my laptop battery is about dead.

Jamezinho said:
I'm sure PES2011 will achieve slow but steady sales once the Fifa honeymoon period passes.
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"You underestimate the power of the Dark Side."
 
My understanding is that in most of the big pro-PES countries in Europe, the ones where PES was already selling more favourably than FIFA (e.g. Spain and Italy - Germany was already very much a FIFA country AFAIK), the gap has closed considerably.

The increase or drop-off of sales, that are what matter as much as anything - how well the game is performing against itself, not against the opposition. Unfortunately we don't really have much to go on as far as country by country 2010 vs 2010 figures.

Edit: I stand corrected!
 
romagnoli said:
My understanding is that in most of the big pro-PES countries in Europe, the ones where PES was already selling more favourably than FIFA (e.g. Spain and Italy - Germany was already very much a FIFA country AFAIK), the gap has closed considerably.

The increase or drop-off of sales, that are what matter as much as anything - how well the game is performing against itself, not against the opposition. Unfortunately we don't really have much to go on as far as country by country 2010 vs 2010 figures.

Edit: I stand corrected!
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Here's a John Murphy quote from here: http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=254415

Think I saw him talking about specific market numbers somewhere...

Let's get the FIFA question out the way. Can PES 2011 be the game that recaptures your dominance of the market - either in terms of sale or critical acclaim?
What we want to stop is hardcore level of our fanbase moving, if I'm totally honest - which worryingly has started to happen. For years, we sat on our laurels and assumed it never would happen. That's our strategy, plain and simple.

What we now have is a benchmark from EA that we've got to beat, which is fine. It gives us a challenge. But that's not our ultimate aim. Our goal is not only to ensure we don't lose any more fans, but that we win back the hardcore fans. The rest of it - we'll see what happens.

Traditionally, PES and FIFA have different reactions in different territories. We see a strong rivalry in the UK, obviously. In France, we see it's very heavily dominated by PES - same in Spain, same in Italy. Germany, for example, has always been FIFA. It depends from territory to territory so you can't just look at the sales. It's a healthy rivalry.

PES needed a shake-up and that's been brought about because FIFA has turned up and done its stuff. I hope we do get back to [No.1] because if PES ever did disappear and you saw one game on the market I think you'd go back to seeing a very, very lazy game of football that everyone would be sick of. Without competition from either side, I think you'd have a problem in this market.
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PES2012 will have to SORT OUT the animations. Otherwise KONAMI will start losing money on the franchise. Animations SELL... People laugh at PES now. They call it a robotic ugly moving invisible walls hockey game.
Oh and KONAMI will HAVE to make FREE movement of players WITHOUT R1+R2....
Anyway IMO as long as KONAMI has Japan to feed off there wont be a DRASTIC change.
 
Niero said:
PES2012 will have to SORT OUT the animations. Otherwise KONAMI will start losing money on the franchise. Animations SELL...
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Well if you understand what the PES animations represent you will see it's going to be mighty hard for them to make the game look beautiful in and purely aesthetic way

FIFA's look great but they don't add any depth to a game don't they? FIFA's animations are the best but the game has about as much depth as a wet sock! You do realize that game has pretty much nothing else to it but those animations, they are highly generic and barley take any stats into account! Predictably I'm seeing people who were praising the game as the best football game ever, only two weeks after saying that complaining of it being easy!

People laugh at PES now. They call it a robotic ugly moving invisible walls hockey game.
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well it's their loss :BYE: . Not many people i know laugh PES, anyway the people i know that do stop laughing after i show them how good the game is.

I know many people even when fifa was good back in 2008 and 2009 who were totally adamant that fifa was a laughable game, and still are!

Oh and KONAMI will HAVE to make FREE movement of players WITHOUT R1+R2....
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There is true free movement it's just you, you need to learn how what players move more freely than others i terms of their stats and how to properly use it


Anyway IMO as long as KONAMI has Japan to feed off there wont be a DRASTIC change.
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South America? Arabic Nations? Whole of Asia?


Basically PES is fine and as long as they don't do a PES 2008 or 2009 on us, Those people who crossed over and focus only on animations were only playing PES because back in the PS2 days PES had better animations than fifa! Wounldn't worry about them anyway!
 
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klashman69 said:
Well if you understand what the PES animations represent you will see it's going to be mighty hard for them to make the game look beautiful in and purely aesthetic way


There is true free movement it's just you, you need to learn how what players move more freely than others i terms of their stats and how to properly use it

Basically PES is fine and as long as they don't do a PES 2008 or 2009 on us, Those people who crossed over and focus only on animations were only playing PES because back in the PS2 days PES had better animations than fifa! Wounldn't worry about them anyway!
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Klash, you're basically denying that there's room for improvement in these area when Niero essentially highlighted the main criticisms that people still have with PES. Nobody can deny that PES has fewer and a less variety of animations than FIFA, or that the controls, movement, and responsiveness aren't quite up to par with other sports games, and I'm not speaking of just FIFA.

You may be satisfied with these areas but the reviews and comments made all over the web since the game's release indicate that not only is there room for improvement in these areas but that they are important areas for Konami to focus on. There's absolutely no reason why improvements in these areas can't be made without changing the spirit of the franchise.
 
I don't think there's any converting the people who are playing FIFA 11 over PES 2011, obviously gameplay depth and realism mean very little to them, and that is the main thing PES has in abundance that FIFA completely lacks, and it always was this way on PS2 and will probably stay like this for the forseeable future...

Most people only care these days about having silky smooth animations and authentic presentation on their HD TVs, so many shit games sell these days just because they look stunning (I don't even think FIFA looks that good).

If you stripped the textures and made the animations/models the same as a PS2 game, a lot of so called "next-gen" games would seem very poor - the graphics of the latest games trick us into thinking games are deeper than they are...
 
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romagnoli said:
It emphasizes a point, doesn't it - wherever PES got full-ish licenses is where the sales are. Italy and Spain have had PES licensing for ages. Has France? I Kitservered my PES 6 and can't remember exactly what the setup was on 5 or earlier.
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Konami has had the Ligue 1 license in it's entirety since PES6 and as far as I'm aware PES has always sold very well in France. I think the longest running PES license is the Eredivisie but I'm not sure how PES squares up to Fifa in Holland. Serie A and La Liga have not been fully licensed in PES for a few years now but they're licensed enough to keep sales strong in those countries.

As you said, it's abundantly clear that licenses = sales. No German league at all in PES must be a killer for sales in Germany, and subsequently Fifa has the foothold there. And it's becoming clearer every year that even an unlicensed English league is not enough any more as Fifa sweeps PES aside in the UK.

I firmly believe that if PES found itself in the situation it was 10 years ago - i.e. a completely unlicensed product - the franchise would effectively become non-viable. There's no appetite for unlicensed games any more.

Rob92 said:
I don't think there's any converting the people who are playing FIFA 11 over PES 2011, obviously gameplay depth and realism mean very little to them, and that is the main thing PES has in abundance that FIFA completely lacks, and it always was this way on PS2 and will probably stay like this for the forseeable future...

Most people only care these days about having silky smooth animations and authentic presentation on their HD TVs, so many shit games sell these days just because they look stunning (I don't even think FIFA looks that good).

If you stripped the textures and made the animations/models the same as a PS2 game, a lot of so called "next-gen" games would seem very poor - the graphics of
the latest games trick us into thinking games are deeper than they are...
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Totally agree. With the HD age of consoles graphics are now of the utmost importance and I don't think it's any coincidence that games have become steadily shallower experiences as a result. Well, in terms of the single player experience anyway.

Also gaming is now a mainstream, mass-market industry which has opened itself up to the casual market. The focus of most games now is accessibility, hand-holding and instant gratification/reward. Fifa does this extremely well at the expense of a deeper experience. PES is the complete opposite and requires a big investment of time (also factor in the need to edit the game to get the best from it).
 
I actually prefer the look and movement of PES myself this year is an absolute treat. They can improve upon it but this is a massive step forward. I play the game on normal long camera and it looks stunning to me. As far as non licensed EPL teams goes for me it is a non starter. After all all the teams and players are present.
 
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