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"line" defense

Discussion in 'Winning Eleven' started by jhatakihk, 30 May 2005.

  1. jhatakihk

    jhatakihk Lotte Marines, Nippon#1!!

    26 May 2005
    Chiba
    can someone pls explain what "line" defense is?

    how much different is it from playing normal defense?

    thx a lot
     
  2. yihd80

    yihd80 Non-League

    23 February 2005
    all CBs make a backline for offside trap!!

    they move forward together before the last pass executed..

    this is a line D..

    sorry about my little english..
     
  3. Jamezinho

    Jamezinho Golden Boot Winner

    10 June 2003
    Ipswich, England
    Ipswich Town F.C.
    Thats right. Your entire defence will try to hold a straight back-line during the match. It doesn't give any of your defenders freedom to attack, and tends to wear them out quicker, but you can catch the opposition offside more often, and the defense is more organised.
     
  4. kingpug

    kingpug Guest

    Although it doesnt work much, I used to have this setting every match, yet I always found one CB who was playing everyone on-side for bloody miles, its like he was the keeper. I couldnt believe how far back he was.
     
  5. PLF

    PLF Legend

    2 August 2004
    Did you check individual instructions on that CB Kingpug? Maybe he had "High Defence" while everyone else was on Normal or even a back-ward arrow?
     
  6. jhatakihk

    jhatakihk Lotte Marines, Nippon#1!!

    26 May 2005
    Chiba
    so, if all the defenders are trying to maintain a "line" in the line defense, will that override the individual defense option? such as covering, zone..etc

    how will the line defense going to work if the defenders are set to play covering defense? i mean each has to move accordingly to compensate other defenders' movement and position, right? (such as in covering def)
     
  7. kingpug

    kingpug Guest

    PLF I always have my 4 defenders on high defence, or if I do change it, everyone gets changed.
     
  8. PLF

    PLF Legend

    2 August 2004
    I'm not taking a stab at you Nick but I find people often instead of tweaking many settings to achieve desired result, they often take the easy way out and say the game CHEATS. Trust me even if the game wanted to cheat which is bullshit anyways people just can't take a loss, it wouldn't do it by setting one defender stay 3 miles behind all other ones to get its own player on-side.

    You have to play with tactics but Kingpug I don't put my defenders on HIGH because if youv'e positioned them in your own box and ALSO put on high I find they back off TOO much to a degree where an oncoming striker is rushing towards them and they're staying far far too deep allowing him or the midfielders to get many long-range shots on goal. That's why I put them on NORMAL and it works fine and I get a lot of offsides.

    I put HIGH defence on midfielders or sidebacks who have forward arrows and aren't too quick at coming back when we lose possession or if there's someone I especially want to help out with defence from midfield or strikers.
     
  9. Nick Cave

    Nick Cave Wrexham fan for my sins...

    10 July 2004
    Non football league waste land...
    Wrexham AFC
    PLF
    I spend hours tweaking tactics and player settings full arrows, no arrows different defence types, marking, the lot and the computer still will score or win a game when it want's to no matter what you do... Ok you say it's not a cheat or AI but it happens. I love it when the comp outplays me or i mess up and get caught out at the back etc.... Hell I hate games where you just win all the time,I want it to be as close to real Football as possible!! But i hate the way the comp "cheats", Hacking players pulling back, stopping my players from running after balls by giving them glue legs etc... you must have it happen to you, it's not just once in a while... Hey i'm not knocking the game i love it and getting beat is part of football but lose the cheats.... and PLF you stab away mate thats what forums are for .....opinions ;)
     
  10. bryan

    bryan Guest

    So what's the difference between NORMAL and LINE?
     
  11. plumbers_x

    plumbers_x Guest

    i'm with nick and kingpug on this

    you can spend hours playing with strategies and tactics, meticulously altering them to suit the specific opposition, yet it's rendered a complete waste of time because when the cpu decides it's time for you to have a bad time, it just over-rides everything with massive bias in favour of the cpu team...ridiculous ball physics, completely improbable mutliple deflections which result in every "loose" ball being scripted to land perfectly at a cpu guy's feet, very obvious player stat alterations, referee joins the cpu team...in other words, cheats
     
  12. PLF

    PLF Legend

    2 August 2004
    Hey Nick,

    This is just it, I've seen it on EVERY forum... but i just don't believe in that.

    The thing is I've played with people and I notice when they get dubious calls that goes their way it goes ABSOLUTELY unnoticed. When they have a defender falling over, or a ref giving a stupid PK or you hacking somebody down with badly mistimed tackle and ref doesn't give a PK and even the CPU player complains.. the match goes on totally unnoticed.

    Yet when something goes for computer's way especially if people are down by a goal they go CRAZY!! They start saying things like REF always does this to me.. it's biased. IF CPU wants to score it will... i mean i find that ridiculous. IT can't possibly score when it wants to if i don't let him.

    But i'm not saying what you said about defender staying behind is false. I'm just saying you gotta look at it in other perspectives. For example defenders and players in general don't always totally take manager's instructions and they have bad days off days. If it happens to me.. I smile and I also smile when I get stopped with a bad mistimed tackle from behind and ref says PLAY ON!! It puts a smile on my face because it's realistic it happens... yet same thing can happen to my brother and he'll lose his temper and throw the controller at the wall even calling the CPU a CHEAT!!

    By the way defenders have their own "Defence" rating so a defender with a 95 for Defence is generally better positioned when defending than one with 72. Their attack rating also might determine how far up or behind they may stay.

    So even if they're given same instructions.. player's own individual characteristics come to play just like in real life cuz eveyrbody's different.

    Anyways I gotta go now but I'm sure you have some valid points as well.. I just hate when people say game cheats and I don't think you're KNOCKING the game man.. I know you just have your own personal opinion which many actually share with you :) so don't worry and knock the game even if you want.. i ain't one of those fanboys who'll say GAME is perfect! I hate those people.. or they might give you a stupid answer like "Well then... go play FIFA if you don't like it". I hate that lol.. next time I heart that I'm gonna slap that person.

    So just state your opinion all you want bro .. i got no problem with it but this just isn't a problem for me personally. When I lose.. I lose.. it could've been either to me being OUTPLAYED or luck/undeservedly either way both happens in real life and I'm happy to lose matches in this game that I didn't DESERVE to lose just like I win some matches 1-0 when I've had 1 shot on goal and being on the receiving end for 90 mins.

    But to most other people if that happens... to them they're totally okay with it but as soon as they lose one game 1-0 where CPU had only 2 shots on target the wHOLE match.. you'll hear things like:

    "I hate it when CPU wants to score, it WILL. They shot and my keeper couldn't save it " lol.
     
  13. hradilv

    hradilv Guest

    Well said, PLF!
     
  14. Shrike

    Shrike Deadball Master

    30 November 2003
    My own PS2
    Multiplaying with human more :D If you had some skilled-mates, your skill would improve much. You will beat CPU without probs, even they cheat but we can outplay them :D
     
  15. filthydani

    filthydani Guest

    The game doesn't cheat, its just you have to play better every game if you want to keep winning constantly, I mean when I beat the CPU OR HUMAN in the first game, he always scores first in the 2nd game (maybe not always but it gets easier for him than the first game) , now I am not sure if its my players who don’t play as good as the 1st game or its me who is playing the same way...

    I really can't tell…
     
  16. kingpug

    kingpug Guest

    This is what I dont get, why does people assume I am shit when I say the CPU cheats?..

    I used to play it with my cousin on 6 stars, we played about 15 seasons over his 3 ML save games, and all on 6 stars, and although we won the season about 14 times, and got put out of the cup in the first round once, we win around 9/10 of our games.

    But just because we win, doesnt mean the game doesnt cheat, quite frankly I dont care what anyone says, we have been playing the game since its release, and although we do win most of our games, we get cheated to fuck in some games.

    Now I began a ML on the PC on just 3 stars, and I only managed to play 3 games before I gave in, the amount of times I stumbled was bloody atrocious, the way Bayern Munich scored 3 goals was out of this world.

    Now the thing is, when playing with my cousin I dont mind when it cheats much, but on my own I just cant play, which is why I rarely play the game.

    I decided to try playing on the PS2, and imo it cheated alot LOT less, the game was much faster and I could get away with fouls while on the PC I would get booked for shouldering someone out the way.

    But the fact is, this game is by far the best football game on the market, which says alot really, and its also funny that everyone I know says the game cheats, yet you die hard fans take offence when someone says the game cheats, why?..you didnt make the game, so what is the big fuss all about?..we are entitled to our own opinions.

    Now I could save everytime I got cheated into a replay, but if I am being honest I would have 20+ replays, and no I dont suck, I can win on 6 stars if I have enough patience to complete the match, but after one match I am left fuming with anger at the bullshit the CPU comes out with in order to score.

    "I hate it when CPU wants to score, it WILL. They shot and my keeper couldn't save it " lol."

    Why laugh?..this is 150% true, when they decide when to score, they take a shit shot and your keeper fumbles it right into the path of the nearest CPU player available.

    And when you try hard as hell to defend, your player touches the ball into pluto, I mean it really is ridiculous, but according to everyone we just suck eh?
     
  17. PLF

    PLF Legend

    2 August 2004
    Do you read the whole post Kingpug before replying mate?

    Because:
    1) I DID mention that you're entiteld to your opinions yet you act like I said opposite

    2) I did say this game has its faults and I'm not one of those hardcore fans

    3) I did also say that I don't care if people criticize the game since I do it and I ain't no fanboy. I even made fun of how some stupid fanboys keep suggesting you go play FIFA as soon as you criticize something about the game which I hate.

    So why come here.... say opposites like
    . Who are these DIE hard fans that take offense?? Is it me.. if so i'm not die hard cuz I only started knowing what the hell PES/WE games are in PES3 lol not too long ago and I already said I dont care its not like my dad made the game.

    And if its to others who agreed with me then why are they fanboys?? Can't they have their own opinions on why people who say it cheats usually forget about calls they get and games they win by 1-0 and the WaY they score.

    I remember winning 6 matches in a row with St. Etienne 1-0 in one ML which had me running away with the league. I was outplayed in at least 4 of them and had 1 or 2 shots on target yet I scored while other team had 10 and my GK had a marvelous day.

    Yet I REMEMBER this but had this happened to any of those who say it CHEATS, they would have totally forgot about this since it worked to their benefit. Yet when CPU scores somehow it was an unbelievable goal that shouldn't have been, what about goals I scored from one shot on target?? can the CPU say I cheat!! lol

    I also won 3 of those 1-0 wins with a PK scored. 2 of which were total bullshit calls but hey I wasn't complaining.

    Have I had same things happen to me with me at the receiving end of bad luck, yes I have :) and I smile when I lose one of those close 1-0 matches where I even dominated. I look forward to the next one and realize this is what real football is like. Some you win, some you lose, sometimes you have luck sometimes opposition does.
     
  18. kingpug

    kingpug Guest

    My post wasnt really directed at you, but I couldnt be bothered saying alot of names etc etc. About the fanboys, I mainly meant the Soccergaming forums where you get flamed for saying the game cheats, used to happen here a while ago.

    I dont mind when the CPU scores, like I said its the WAY they score, why does my keeper have to parry the ball right into the CPU players feet?..why not one of the other 100 directions?

    And yea sometimes I get the advantage aswell, but for example, every 10 matches the CPU cheat me to death, I get the advantage maybe 2 times.

    Anyway, I might try starting a ML on the PS2, because that seems better than the PC version.

    But another thing I dont get is the form, I play single matches when my players all have red form, and it is 100% different, meaning when one player has a red form in the ML he still sucks, but when that same player has red form in a single match he plays pretty good.

    The whole form thing about the game sucks arse, players should play normal on green form, and anything over is a bonus, and same with anything less. But to me it seems that a player only plays to his stats if he has red form, which is why I have my team on red form, because they dont do the most retarded things 24/7.
     
  19. Mauras

    Mauras Premiership

    7 October 2002
    the problem isn't the CPU cheating.

    The problem is the whole game faults in terms of offside. This year's versions are very bad in terms of offside.

    I remember last year, in WE7, WE7Int and in PES3 the offside trap was pretty efficient and the high through balls weren't so efective.

    Now it's pretty easy to break through with high through balls that make the CBs look as good as me. It's tottally stupid.

    I agree that through balls needed to be a little more efficient, but Konami could have made hight trough balls efective as they are when performed diagonally, or to the wingers but more difficult in plain straighforward central passes, it's pretty damn unrealistic and makes any offside trap or defensive setting fail.
     
  20. plumbers_x

    plumbers_x Guest

    so, the cpu cannot possibly cheat?

    please explain what you think it is that makes 1* so easy and 6* much harder? after all, the players stats are the players stats and the laws of physics are the laws of physics, so......???
     
  21. RuneEdge

    RuneEdge Silent Assassin

    1 October 2003
    Turn around, I'm right behind you...
    Manchester United
    I'm definately sure the game cheats and I have some very clear examples.
    First of all, how come whenever you want to make the perfect through ball, the striker will refuse to run forward and then start the run too late to get the ball? This happens to me atleast once every game. The game just wont let me run into a 1 on 1 scoring opportunity because my player would just stand there.
    Another one is that how come whistle for halftime or fulltime almost always blows when you are in possession? I mean, there have been times when the ref said there are only 2 mins of stoppage time but the CPU will have the ball for nearly 5 mins. I clear the ball into their half but the carry on playing. But I've experienced times when I ran into their half during stoppage time and the ref blew the whistle during a cross into the box. Whats up with that?

    And I've noticed that this only happens in the Master League so that Konami can create the illusion of a better AI.
     
  22. kingpug

    kingpug Guest

    Yea Rune I get the same, or when your away to throw someone the ball from a throw-in and they run away at the last season.

    The only reason all this happens is because of the form, as I said I only play on red form, because on random, yellow or even green my players play blindfolded.

    And the ML is a complete joke, the cheating the ML does is incredible, out of all the games I have played, none come close to this game in terms of the blatant cheating AI.

    Lets hope when they make PES5 they actually watch football to know what its like, because this game has so many flaws and bugs.
     
  23. PLF

    PLF Legend

    2 August 2004
    Lol.. I'm not gonna argue this too much more Kingpug and RunEdge because I see I'm alone and there is too many arguements I can use but whatever I don't feel like it.. I'm tired man but I'm willing to bet your ass the whistle doesn't always go when YOU have the ball. Many times it's whoever has possession at the right time so whether its CPU or you it'll blow.

    As for difference between 1* and 6*??? Hehhe that's pretty obvious.. on 1* the CPU players are less responsive/slower overall and can't put a couple passes together and even if you don't move your players you'll find they make a mistake and HAND you the ball. On 6* they make better dribbles, better passes and overall the AI is more intelligent.

    Too much stuff to say but whatever guys you're of course entitled to your opinions and if you want to believe the game is SCREWING you then do it :) I respect your opinions I just don't buy it and never have the same problem.

    I get into many 1-on-1 situations as well.
    And no I don't find players act below their stats when they're NOT on a RED arrow. I feel they play just fine with GREEN (avg) arow and anything above it is a bonus and anything below is a small decrease in stats.

    In fact I never regulate condition in ML because when you do the MINIMUM arrow you get for your players is AT LEAST a GREEN arrow which i find unrealistic. There are times in season when some players are not fully fit or coming back from injury or just not in good form and should have BLUE or even GREY arrows.. so I don't regulate condition to keep them like that and keep the game more realistic than playes being on AT LEAST Green before every match.

    But then again I also lose and enjoy it and I was thinking chipped through balls are too INEFFECTIVE as almost most of them are too LOFTY and not enough power and my defenders and CPU heads the ball without strikers getting through on goal... but then again I think we're all different and this just shows it ;)

    Take care guys.
     
  24. kingpug

    kingpug Guest

    I will tell you what, you are so lucky I cant record a whole match and upload it just to prove you wrong, because I am so tempted to.

    Anyway lets not discuss this type of crap in here.
     
  25. plumbers_x

    plumbers_x Guest

    Yeah, but if these players have the same stats, how can it be that on 1* a cpu player with passing stat of 70 can't pass 5 yards but on 6* can? The stats are altered.

    Once you accept that the game alters stats, you realise that opens up the whole can of worms.....anything can be, and is, altered by the cpu depending upon the situation, the players stats, the probability stats, the physics stats, they can all be altered.

    The cpu team invariably puts in a big effort towards the end of a match. How can this be? After all, it's not really people, just little computer generated guys who are basically nothing but little bundles of numbers wearing a football kit. So how can these little bundles of numbers suddenly make a surge in effort? Because the cpu is aware of the match context and can decide to make things happen by altering the numbers being fed into the game engine. If the cpu can, whenever it chooses, decide to alter the stats being fed into the game engine, it can "cheat".
     
  26. kingpug

    kingpug Guest

    plumbers_x you hit the nail on the head, twice :p

    Like I said, why is a red form in the ML different to a red form in single match?..

    Plus, why do I get more yellows in the ML than I do in single matches?..all the yellow cards I get in the ML are atrocious, aka shoulder barging or sliding from the front.

    Why does Henry run fast as fuck when you play him but is slow as fuck when you go him?..while my Henry has red, the CPU has green, explain.

    Why can keepers save all the best shots, yet when you go the same team the keeper is shit?..yet again, all using the same form.

    Also, why do I stumble like a bit paper in the wind in the ML but not in single matches?..

    If anyone can explain these to me, I would be happy.
     
  27. PLF

    PLF Legend

    2 August 2004
    Lol Kingpug i'm not lucky you can't do that ;) I'd be glad to see it cuz i'm sure in that same match you're recording you might score a goal where opposition keeper is at fault and doesn't move yet you won't be bothered but if same happens and you concede one it'll stick in your memory.

    @Plumbers, The CPU tries harder at the end of the match like you said and especially tries super hard if you're leading by one and they try their hardest to get back into match especially in ML. You guys are absolutely right so what's the problem? I'd expect a real team to do that and so it has been programmed so CPU does that as well. It's more realistic.. now of course if they're trying really hard like they SHOULD be and they score, it's suddenly cheating? No, I think of it as opposition players like in real life are giving their best and they score a goal lol.

    Anyways guys maybe we shouldn't discuss this anymore. Because I don't see you accepting my point and I don't see me being convinced either.

    Take care
     
  28. kingpug

    kingpug Guest

    If you aint convinced, maybe read my entire post and see if you agree.

    What do you mean a real team does the same, so you watch Chelsea play and then 10 mins to go 1 goal down they all turn into the Peles and Maradonas?..doubt it.

    Anyway, read my other post before yours and prove me wrong about what I said.
     
  29. Nick Cave

    Nick Cave Wrexham fan for my sins...

    10 July 2004
    Non football league waste land...
    Wrexham AFC
    LOL maybe this should be on it's own thread it seams there are two school’s of thought on this, on one side 'the comp cheats' and on the other 'it's just football' or 'the comp can't cheat'......... As this is nothing to do with line defence or normal I guess we should as PLF said leave it at that!!


    Though can I just add in WE9 or PES5 the comp better stop clipping my players and making them stumble when they are through on goal................ cheating b@*$%@d.... ;)
     
  30. kingpug

    kingpug Guest

    Yep, this is imo the worst thing about the game, and they said WE8:I has less tumbling, what an amazing joke that is. But yet again this only happens, funnily enough in the ML really..hmmmm.
     

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