IceMan_Bergkamp
Total Football
I hope BRUM appeal..... then it'll be a 4 match ban :mrgreen:
Eduardo's Horrific Injury -- Video Included
- Thread starter Nathan7
- Start date
steevio_uk
Premiership
- 7 October 2003
- West Ham
Blatter has come out with his usual fuckwit ten pence worth.
The man is a born idiot who is so blatantly biased towards England and English clubs.
The man is a born idiot who is so blatantly biased towards England and English clubs.
Milanista
Mangiamoli!
Not only England, he hates Italy. Said we didnt deserve the WC!
steevio_uk
Premiership
- 7 October 2003
- West Ham
The bloke is just a retarded quimbasket.
gerd
Retired Footballer
Blatter is a big idiot...
Somebody heard carlos Queroz yesterday ????
I think the English FA should ban him a couple of weeks foor this very unfair behaviour after yesterday's match...the only horrific tackle in that match was what Rooney tried to do.
Man Utd could have got a penalty (not 100% sure, but i think Distin's charge was a penalty), but what do you expect with Ronaldo who so often dives in a perfect coördinated choreography wiht Ferguson, who jumps up in moch indignation...
Somebody heard carlos Queroz yesterday ????
I think the English FA should ban him a couple of weeks foor this very unfair behaviour after yesterday's match...the only horrific tackle in that match was what Rooney tried to do.
Man Utd could have got a penalty (not 100% sure, but i think Distin's charge was a penalty), but what do you expect with Ronaldo who so often dives in a perfect coördinated choreography wiht Ferguson, who jumps up in moch indignation...
Carlos Queiroz - '' That's why the Taylors of this world survive ''
Yep Quieroz, Taylor before the red card for the tackle on Eduardo had only one red card in his career, which is pretty amazing record to a central defender in nearly 300 appearances. The media want to make Taylor out as a nutter for making one mistimed tackle in his career it's a bloody joke. The bloke has had death threats, there are some pathetic people in this world.
Funny if this ban for life would've been installed in the past then Keane and Cantona would've had very short career's, both great footballers but prone to extremely aggressive tackles.
gerd
Retired Footballer
Another possible victim would be Paul Scholes, a fantastic player, nice bloke, but he just can't tackle...Scholes also could injure somebody without having the intent...
Rantboy
International
- 27 December 2002
- Fluminense FC / Arsenal
I'm not saying that I agree with Blatter at all, but the way you guys put it, looks like its okay to tackle carelessly. If shit happens, its an accident.
But the player didnt take any precautions, so then he should be the one to blame.
Oh, its lack of technique, he just doesnt know how to tackle. Well if you dont know how to do it, then dont do it, dammit!
Its funny how you guys excuse professional footballers for "accidents" like that.
But the player didnt take any precautions, so then he should be the one to blame.
Oh, its lack of technique, he just doesnt know how to tackle. Well if you dont know how to do it, then dont do it, dammit!
Its funny how you guys excuse professional footballers for "accidents" like that.
steevio_uk
Premiership
- 7 October 2003
- West Ham
He has only been sent off once before and averages about 1 booking per season.
He plays Premiership football.
This suggests he knows how to tackle.
He went in hard, but not any more dangerous than you see every single week.
Eduardo was injured unluckily.
Shit happens, so just get over it and stop being so patronising.
gerd
Retired Footballer
I didn't know that Taylor averages one booking per season...to me, that says it all (together with the fact that even Eduardo does not blame him).
I think the bad guy in this all is Queroz...what he said is unbelievable...
That's one the reasons why i stopped supporting Man Utd, the unfair behavior of Ferguson and now also Queroz who seems otherwise a likeable guy...i hope Arsenal or Chelsea become champion (the reaction of Chelsea after their defeat was a fair one...quite a difference).
I think the bad guy in this all is Queroz...what he said is unbelievable...
That's one the reasons why i stopped supporting Man Utd, the unfair behavior of Ferguson and now also Queroz who seems otherwise a likeable guy...i hope Arsenal or Chelsea become champion (the reaction of Chelsea after their defeat was a fair one...quite a difference).
Rantboy
International
- 27 December 2002
- Fluminense FC / Arsenal
His previously clean record is the reason I dont agree with Blatter. Nine months would be way over the top. But then again, a 3 match suspension is an insult to football. Clean record or not, let's not forget that there's always a first time.
It's time we ask ourselves who's being patronising really. The british press and you lot surprisingly feel sorry for Martin as much as for Eduardo. Well, we all feel sorry for both of them. But at the end of the day, Eduardo will be the one sitting 9 months and Martin will be playing again very soon.
Oh I'm sure he's devastated, but he's not a little boy. He's a Premier League professional, he knows what he does and must face the consequences. One must be responsible for his own acts, yet you guys fail to see it. Now that's patronising!
Jumbo_
-
So you think Martin Taylor is sat at home smug as fuck because he broke Eduardo's leg and 'got away' with a 3 match ban?
Coelho only got a 5 game ban for assaulting Kerlon when he did the seal dribble and Cantona got a 9 month ban for a flying kick at a supporter so put it in perspective. Both deliberate attempts to hurt somebody in the heat of the moment.
This tackle was an accident. Why should he be banned for X amount of matches for that?
He's got an excellent record compared to some players, it was just unfortunate. Far worse tackles happen all the time and all over the world. It's just that this one time Eduardo got hurt so it's made an example of.
Grow up.
Coelho only got a 5 game ban for assaulting Kerlon when he did the seal dribble and Cantona got a 9 month ban for a flying kick at a supporter so put it in perspective. Both deliberate attempts to hurt somebody in the heat of the moment.
This tackle was an accident. Why should he be banned for X amount of matches for that?
He's got an excellent record compared to some players, it was just unfortunate. Far worse tackles happen all the time and all over the world. It's just that this one time Eduardo got hurt so it's made an example of.
Grow up.
steevio_uk
Premiership
- 7 October 2003
- West Ham
Seeing as you clearly do not understand what the word means, let me explain...
What is highlighted in red is patronising from you yet again.
'Taylor cannot tackle'... 'you lot'?
And saying 'we fail to see', simply because some people disagree with you?
That is patronising. You think that people are on Taylor's side?
Don't be ridiculous.
Nobody is on Taylor's side, but what they ARE doing is defending him from the over the top claims that people are making to him and all the abuse he has gotten for what was a simple accident.
Banned for life?
Death threats?
Blatter saying what he said etc
It's pathetic and people should grow the fuck up.
I don't feel no sympathy for Taylor at all, but the guy deserves none of what he has received.
Makelele done a worse tackle on Faubert last week.
Should he be held for his actions too and banned for life?
Fuck it, let's just bring back the guillotine.
Rantboy
International
- 27 December 2002
- Fluminense FC / Arsenal
Man, this is getting ridiculous. You're quoting my words as if I was on my own on this, thinking that my opinion is the absolute truth, and it's not. However there are lots of people who, like me, think he deserved more than just 3 games out.
It's not as if I want electric chair to Taylor. I thought I made myself clear on this. As I said before, at least the rest of this season should be a more reasonable suspension.
As long as this is considered a normal everyday tackle (this and Makelele's and whoever's) players will go on tackling carelessly and remain unpunished.
To illustrate things better: I drive my car everyday and I'm exposed to accidents anytime. But if I drink, take drugs and drive, this chance will increase and if something happens, I should be held responsible.
The point I'm trying to make is: that injury was an accident that was bound to happen. Just a matter of time, since careless tackles like that are considered normal by the FA. In this case, it's more of a cultural thing. Taylor just belongs to a group of other dozens of players who could injure someone like that. FA turning their eyes away from this issue doesn't help.
In Brazil he have a lot of problems in football, but here they protect the talent, always. In England, they protect the butcher, it seems.
Interesting that jumberto pointed out that challenge on Kerlon, of Cruzeiro. That was nowhere near as bad as he's implying. The guy went to put him straight to the ground, deliberate and intentionaly, and received the fair red card for it. But it was a challenge that represented no risks of serious injuries. Kerlon was on his feet 5 seconds after and you know how brazilian players are really annoying when they want to fake.
It's not as if I want electric chair to Taylor. I thought I made myself clear on this. As I said before, at least the rest of this season should be a more reasonable suspension.
As long as this is considered a normal everyday tackle (this and Makelele's and whoever's) players will go on tackling carelessly and remain unpunished.
To illustrate things better: I drive my car everyday and I'm exposed to accidents anytime. But if I drink, take drugs and drive, this chance will increase and if something happens, I should be held responsible.
The point I'm trying to make is: that injury was an accident that was bound to happen. Just a matter of time, since careless tackles like that are considered normal by the FA. In this case, it's more of a cultural thing. Taylor just belongs to a group of other dozens of players who could injure someone like that. FA turning their eyes away from this issue doesn't help.
In Brazil he have a lot of problems in football, but here they protect the talent, always. In England, they protect the butcher, it seems.
Interesting that jumberto pointed out that challenge on Kerlon, of Cruzeiro. That was nowhere near as bad as he's implying. The guy went to put him straight to the ground, deliberate and intentionaly, and received the fair red card for it. But it was a challenge that represented no risks of serious injuries. Kerlon was on his feet 5 seconds after and you know how brazilian players are really annoying when they want to fake.
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steevio_uk
Premiership
- 7 October 2003
- West Ham
This is the point... the tackle wasn't necassarily careless.
It was a firm and fair challenge but Eduardo was just too quick for him.
These tackles happen every game, every league, every country, every day.
But 90% of them are not noticed because the player gets the ball and people say 'great tackle'
10% do get noticed because a player is too clever and gets a foul.
Out of that 10%, there will maybe be 1 or 2 where an injury occurs and hardly ever does such an unfortunate thing happen like what has happened to Eduardo.
Taylor's tackle was the same as you will see many times in many games everywhere in the world.
The FA aren't turning a blind eye, because they and many others are sensible and understand it was bad luck.
It was not a dirty challenge with dangerous intent... just pure bad luck that Eduardo was too quick and got caught so unluckily.
There is no precedent to ban Taylor for more than 3 games because they do not have the power to.
Straight red card = 3 games.
Only if they thought it was intentionally dangerous and he went in to injure the player, then they would reassess it and give him a stronger punishment.
It wasn't intentional or dangerous with intent and most people can see that.
It isn't a case of protecting the butcher... we aren't a nation of thugs you know.
I'm getting sick and tired of the constant stereotyping of English players, fans and people in general by some comments on this forum.
It was a firm and fair challenge but Eduardo was just too quick for him.
These tackles happen every game, every league, every country, every day.
But 90% of them are not noticed because the player gets the ball and people say 'great tackle'
10% do get noticed because a player is too clever and gets a foul.
Out of that 10%, there will maybe be 1 or 2 where an injury occurs and hardly ever does such an unfortunate thing happen like what has happened to Eduardo.
Taylor's tackle was the same as you will see many times in many games everywhere in the world.
The FA aren't turning a blind eye, because they and many others are sensible and understand it was bad luck.
It was not a dirty challenge with dangerous intent... just pure bad luck that Eduardo was too quick and got caught so unluckily.
There is no precedent to ban Taylor for more than 3 games because they do not have the power to.
Straight red card = 3 games.
Only if they thought it was intentionally dangerous and he went in to injure the player, then they would reassess it and give him a stronger punishment.
It wasn't intentional or dangerous with intent and most people can see that.
It isn't a case of protecting the butcher... we aren't a nation of thugs you know.
I'm getting sick and tired of the constant stereotyping of English players, fans and people in general by some comments on this forum.
Jumbo_
-
What he said. ^^^^
There's my point. I wasn't saying it was particularly bad, I was just using it as a good example of somebody purposefully hurting another player. Taylor wasn't trying to hurt Eduardo, so why should he be banned for the rest of the season? That's just ridiculous.
Did you see Bardsley's tackle on Pienaar yesterday? I'm guessing not because you would have mentioned it by now. It was far worse than Taylor's but Pienaar was (luckily) ok so it's not had a deal made of it.
Anyway, steevio said everything I would have said, no point repeating it.
There's my point. I wasn't saying it was particularly bad, I was just using it as a good example of somebody purposefully hurting another player. Taylor wasn't trying to hurt Eduardo, so why should he be banned for the rest of the season? That's just ridiculous.
Did you see Bardsley's tackle on Pienaar yesterday? I'm guessing not because you would have mentioned it by now. It was far worse than Taylor's but Pienaar was (luckily) ok so it's not had a deal made of it.
Anyway, steevio said everything I would have said, no point repeating it.
gerd
Retired Footballer
The discussion in this thread is clearly influenced by footballistic cultural differences (this sounds rather bullshittish, but it's the only way i can explain it).
Italian people in this thread think Taylor should be punished more harshly because Italy has some very cultured defenders who defend on thechnique rather than on what i would call "enthousiasm" (other would call it agression). Italian people will point out that the fact that a player like Thiery Henry was a star in the Premiership but did not made it in Italy and is now rather struggling in Spain, is also due to the fact that the English defenders are not good enough...
English people think that Taylor just had bad luck because, his tackle wasn't particularly vicious and he just had the bad luck that Eduardo accelerated when he wanted to tackle...
I tend to agree with both sides.
What should happen now???
It would not be correct to make a scapegoat of Taylor. Leave the man alone, he has had neough negative publicity. The fact that everybody keeps on focussing on Taylor, isn't very good for Eduardo too...
No, the English FA should think about the future and should give the refs stricter orders. Tackles like that should be punished more severely. Both Makelele and Rooney (who "missed" the Portsmouth player) should get red cards in the future...every careless tackle should be punished.
If television images prove referees wrong, then the (unjust) red card should be enough. If the red card was awarded after a dive, the diving player should get a ban for a couple of matches.
If television images show that there were careless tackles that the ref have missed, then the offenders should get a ban.
And maybe, most important of all: stop interviewing players or coaches right after the matches. They say things that they don't mean (Wenger for example). If managers criticize referees or cooperate with divers (Ferguson-Ronaldo), ban them...The fact that managers criticize referees is bad for the game and will not protect players like Eduardo or Christiano Ronaldo.
Italian people in this thread think Taylor should be punished more harshly because Italy has some very cultured defenders who defend on thechnique rather than on what i would call "enthousiasm" (other would call it agression). Italian people will point out that the fact that a player like Thiery Henry was a star in the Premiership but did not made it in Italy and is now rather struggling in Spain, is also due to the fact that the English defenders are not good enough...
English people think that Taylor just had bad luck because, his tackle wasn't particularly vicious and he just had the bad luck that Eduardo accelerated when he wanted to tackle...
I tend to agree with both sides.
What should happen now???
It would not be correct to make a scapegoat of Taylor. Leave the man alone, he has had neough negative publicity. The fact that everybody keeps on focussing on Taylor, isn't very good for Eduardo too...
No, the English FA should think about the future and should give the refs stricter orders. Tackles like that should be punished more severely. Both Makelele and Rooney (who "missed" the Portsmouth player) should get red cards in the future...every careless tackle should be punished.
If television images prove referees wrong, then the (unjust) red card should be enough. If the red card was awarded after a dive, the diving player should get a ban for a couple of matches.
If television images show that there were careless tackles that the ref have missed, then the offenders should get a ban.
And maybe, most important of all: stop interviewing players or coaches right after the matches. They say things that they don't mean (Wenger for example). If managers criticize referees or cooperate with divers (Ferguson-Ronaldo), ban them...The fact that managers criticize referees is bad for the game and will not protect players like Eduardo or Christiano Ronaldo.
To give a ban as long as long as the injury is childish as since when can a player foul a player and think i will injure this player for X months.
Some tackles are downright vicious 2 footed assaults but luckily the player gets up and is not injured. So we should let the perpetrator go unpunished as a result ??? Ridiculous
The point would then be why are we lengthening bans because of intent or because of the injury ?
Take Taylor out of the equation, do you want to see Rooney, Gerrard etc banned of a half a season or more due to a mistimed tackle(yes I say mistimed as it's the word that EVERY ex-footballer on tv categorises it - Or do we ignore them as Alan Hansen and co have played the game for decades and we on this board have played what ?).
Good job Zidane retired as his headbutt was totally intentional as with Blatter in this mood he would be banned for years (He got a 3 match ban)...Oh I forgot he is a world class player so lets overlook this and as the guy he attacked is not injured its ok.
Some tackles are downright vicious 2 footed assaults but luckily the player gets up and is not injured. So we should let the perpetrator go unpunished as a result ??? Ridiculous
The point would then be why are we lengthening bans because of intent or because of the injury ?
Take Taylor out of the equation, do you want to see Rooney, Gerrard etc banned of a half a season or more due to a mistimed tackle(yes I say mistimed as it's the word that EVERY ex-footballer on tv categorises it - Or do we ignore them as Alan Hansen and co have played the game for decades and we on this board have played what ?).
Good job Zidane retired as his headbutt was totally intentional as with Blatter in this mood he would be banned for years (He got a 3 match ban)...Oh I forgot he is a world class player so lets overlook this and as the guy he attacked is not injured its ok.
lo zio
International
- 24 October 2005
- Palermo
i'd rather say that's the most balanced and clever comment made so far
it's funny to notice how people's opinions might be "drastic"...
i mean somebody compares taylor to a criminal, other people instead pretend it was just an accident...
am i the only one who doesn't share both of theese views?? :-pp
what taylor did was far from being an accident.... what happened to ronaldo weeks ago, that was an accident.... what happened to eduardo instead was the consequence of an HORRIBLE tackle. that's it
it was not an "unlucky tackle", it was not a "normal challenge", it was not a "not necassarily careless tackle". it was a careless tackle.... and this not, "according to the italian idea of the game"..... this according to the rules of the game itself.
he stamped his studs on eduardo's ankle, Jesus... he got a 3 matches ban.... u don't get a 3 matches ban for a "not necessarily careless" tackle, so please let's stop talking nonsense.
but tbh i can't understand what would be the purpose of a ban longer than 3 matches... why should he get more than this? because he broke eduardo's leg? that's quite a silly reason, if u ask me. there are hundreds of tackles as bad as taylor's one (and even worse) in premiership.... EVERY WEEK. Most of them don't have terrific consequences (like eduardo's broken leg)... but it's just a matter of luck....
but by saying "it's just a matter of luck" i don't mean to say so taylor shouldn't be blamed, as he was just unlucky.
no way. when u do that kind of tackle, u know what could happen.
what i mean to say is that the other ones (that army of cbs and defensive midfielders who don't even look at the ball, during a tackle).... they were lucky, and not the opposite (taylor being unlucky)
so, id'say it would be quite hypocrite being too harsh with taylor. he made a mistake, and that's a fact... but you also have to face that there are plenty of theese tackles in premiership (and maybe that's also the reason why some of u don't consider that tackle such an horrible one..), so if we would give a 9 matches ban, a season ban or even more to taylor, then we should do the same with all the other players whose tackles might have the same consequences taylor tackle had..... in a few weeks the 30% of premiership players would be banned probably.
to sum up Gerd, i don't think taylor should get a longer ban, as it would be pointless.
but of course i'm not blind. i saw that tackle and i can tell "bad luck" has nothing to do with what happened to eduardo.
Neither i would say henry didn't show his class here in italy coz of our superior cbs... there were other reasons for titì's failure in serie a.... besides... serie a too has its "butchers"... sure they're not as much as premiership ones..... but still, every now and then, u can see a terrific tackle in serie a too
that's premiership, warts an all.
with some better youth football schools coaches, the level of your defenders would raise, but then scoring would become harder, and the premiership's "show" would loose something.
if your refs would be more harsh, they could "educate" some of your buthcers, but then u would be bored about "the stupid refs stopping the game every fucking minute"..... u would start complaining about "what a bunch of divers your players turned into".
so u can't have it all.
and considering that most of the english guy i met consider the premiership football as the best football on the planet (
), i don't think u guys really wanna change anything.and actually me too i wouldn't like to change anything.
because otherwise british football would become too similar to the continental one.
i like premiership the way it is right now. tbh serie a has much more to offer than premiership, but i also like to see soemthing different. i like to see c.ronaldo dribbling 3 players in the same action, i like to see some crazy scores, with plenty of goals, i like to see football played with an "NBA-style pace".
and i'm sure u guys like it too.
but of course u can't have it all... so every bright side of premiership, also implies a dark side, and the same goes for serie a, liga and all the other leagues.
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gerd
Retired Footballer
I agree with almost everything you write Ben except with "if the the refs should be more harsh"...
I do feel sorry for the referees. They have to make decisions in a split second where i'm not sure after 4 or 5 replays.
I don't agree with the criticism of pundits and (certainly) not managers of teams have had bad results. A CF can have missed 4 or 5 open chances on one end of the pitch and the ref might have given wrongly a penalty on the other side...managers will always blame the ref...if the CF hadn't missed the sitter it would still be 4 or 5-1...
So the FA and UEFA and FIFA should really support the refs...that isn't happening now...
I do feel sorry for the referees. They have to make decisions in a split second where i'm not sure after 4 or 5 replays.
I don't agree with the criticism of pundits and (certainly) not managers of teams have had bad results. A CF can have missed 4 or 5 open chances on one end of the pitch and the ref might have given wrongly a penalty on the other side...managers will always blame the ref...if the CF hadn't missed the sitter it would still be 4 or 5-1...
So the FA and UEFA and FIFA should really support the refs...that isn't happening now...
lo zio
International
- 24 October 2005
- Palermo
i think u misunderstood me Gerd (i absolutely share your views about how tough is our refs duty and how unfair are all those criticisms they have to live with).
i wasn't suggesting a change in the british refereeing style... at all. i was just pointing out how a refereeing style change would have many consequences on the british football....
infact if u pay attention, u can notice i didn't say "the refs should be more harsh".... i wrote "if the refs would be more harsh.... then u might not like the consequences".
let me make some adjustements to my previous post, to make myself more clear...
me said:
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steevio_uk
Premiership
- 7 October 2003
- West Ham
i'd rather say that's the most balanced and clever comment made so far
it's funny to notice how people's opinions might be "drastic"...
i mean somebody compares taylor to a criminal, other people instead pretend it was just an accident...
am i the only one who doesn't share both of theese views?? :-pp
what taylor did was far from being an accident.... what happened to ronaldo weeks ago, that was an accident.... what happened to eduardo instead was the consequence of an HORRIBLE tackle. that's it
it was not an "unlucky tackle", it was not a "normal challenge", it was not a "not necassarily careless tackle". it was a careless tackle.... and this not, "according to the italian idea of the game"..... this according to the rules of the game itself.
he stamped his studs on eduardo's ankle, Jesus... he got a 3 matches ban.... u don't get a 3 matches ban for a "not necessarily careless" tackle, so please let's stop talking nonsense.
See, this is where we differ, yet from your difference of opionion you choose to say I am speaking nonsense... even though you have already admitted there are different views on the way tackles are perceived in different countries.
Let's say Eduardo had got there half a second earlier, he would have got the ball and missed the tackle too.
Would you have cared about Taylor's tackle then? No
Would you have been having the same discussion now? No
Again, with your comments and referring to 'butchers' it appears very patronising as if to say that we are a nation of hard-arses that let our thuggish stupid defenders kick players because it's a man's game and we don't like those wimpy foreigners who dive everywhere.
That's nonsense mate.
It's a shame that because many people share a different view, it has to come down to our culture being less cultured than that on the continent etc rather than us just sharing a different and educated view.
To be honest, I think most people will agree it was unfortunate and the tackle wasn't that bad.
Of what I have heard from any players and managers who have commented on it,- they say that (just like me) Taylor was unlucky and so was Eduardo and that Taylor was trying to get the ball and the tackle wasn't that bad.
This includes Eduardo himself and Eduardo's national manager who is usually extremely loyal and sometimes partizan to his players.
Are they speaking nonsense too??
The only people that seem to have condemned Taylor are the grey men in grey suits like Blatter and also the patronising people that are on their high horse, being sanctimonious and thinking that England and English players are in need of education as footballers because we are a nation of butchers/thugs or whatever...
To be perfectly honest with everyone, I would say that despite many of their flaws off the pitch and lack of tactical awareness and such... British players are generally a lot more honest than than many of their foreign counterparts and I would also say that our league, while being more physical, is a lot less dirty than most around the world.
It's something I am proud of, but at the same time, it is something we could lose at times because we so often get beaten in the psychological games and get players sent off... see Ronaldo/Rooney.
That's the difference between the 2 players... 1 is a less than honest and very clever player and the other is an ex-boxer who has the brain the size of a pea.
Give Taylor a break.
It was either with intent or it was without intent.
He never meant to injure the player and his tackle was just like many you see all over the world.
Just because of this extremely unlikely accident happning once in a very long while, it is made a big deal and someone like Taylor is made an example of.
But I guess that's a lot easier as he is an easier target because he is just an uneducated, butcher English defender?
lo zio
International
- 24 October 2005
- Palermo
wait a minute, Steevio, u got me all wrong. i'm not trying to establish an "italian football supremacy" neither i'm patronizing anybody.
but it's a fact that every football school has its own bright and dark sides.
i know pretty well both english and italian footie bright and dark sides.
i have no problems in admitting the shortcomings of the italian football.
i have no problems in admitting the diving tendency of many italian players, neither i have problems in admitting our lack of good side players.
the same way, if i was english, i would have no problems in admitting the lack of technique and timing of most of english cbs...
there's no shame in having shortcomings, steevio, so don't take it as a personal attack to the english school.
i just think the quality of the english defences is not really good. and i think that's also the reason of the high amount og goals u can witness in premiership....and the reason of the high amount of bad tackles.....and also the reason of the high tempo of the english football....
u might disagree with my view, but i'm not patronising anybody, i'm just expressing my opinion.
i can appreciate the difference between the english and the italian way to conceive football.... and i do like this difference (otherwise i wouldn't watch the premiership matches), but it was an english ref, the one who gave a red card to taylor, so i can't see any difference between the italian culture and the english culture, in this case...... it's just your own view i disagree with :-pp
tbh, i don't think so. u don't get a red card for "unluck". u get a red card for a bad tackle... plain and simple.
u seem to think that having a bad timing is just a matter of luck.....
but i disagree with u. it has anything to do with luck. timing and positioning are SKILLS. a good timing is what makes u appreciate the difference between a "nesta" and a "materazzi" (just to take 2 italian examples).
puyol, hierro, cannavaro, nesta, beckembauer, baresi, sammer, scirea..... do u think they were just more lucky than their colleagues?
it's not thanks to his luck if barzagli (palermo cb) did less bad timing tackles than his partner biava.
it's is because barzagli has the ability to realise when he's late, he has the ability to keep the right distance from the upcoming striker, he has the coolness to avoid sliding with a "hammer feet".
it is not luck mate, it's tecnique.
i'm not blaming taylor for doing a bad tackle.... hundreds of players do it every week.... in italy too (but not as often as in england).
but i also find extremely unappropriate to say he was just "unlucky". he's not a criminal, like some people here think.... but he's not even just an unlucky player, like u seem to think. he just did a mistake. that's it.
there's a difference between a beautiful tackle and a bad tackle..... and this difference has anything to do with luck.
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steevio_uk
Premiership
- 7 October 2003
- West Ham
I wasn't suggesting you were saying Italian football or whoever was better than English or vice versa...
My point was that it seems too easy to suggest that the people that are supporting Taylor in this are only doing so because it's 'the English way' of liking hard thuggish play etc... like some have suggested.
Anyway, all this nationality stuff is a little off the topic in my opinion.
Whilst I agree to a certain extent what gerd said that there are different views on tackling and such I think it is irrelevant to a certain level because there are players in every league in every country that make worse challenges than Taylor and you will see the EXACT same challenge many times this coming weekend in every league... the only reason you will not hear about it will be because there will not be an Eduardo there who is too quick for the defender.
Like you said, Taylor made a mistake, but that was because he never got the ball and he rightly got sent off.. let's make no mistake here because he deserved to get sent off because it ended up a bad tackle.
As I say, it would have been a brilliant tackle had it been a split second earlier.. this is why it was unlucky for everyone that this unfortunate injury happened.
You say it was poor technique from Taylor which I guess on this one occasion it was... but it was also great technique from Eduardo also... as I say it was just all round unlucky it happened because it is so rare and not worth making such a big deal out of although that may sound harsh on Eduardo... I am just atlking about the incident.
One thing that should be worth considering in all of this is while you put so much emphasis on English players not having the best timing or technical ablity to make a great tackle, they very rarely go in to foul a player or injure a fellow professional.
I would say that generally, foreign defenders for all their supposed 'better timing and better technique' will be much more likely to purposefully hack a player than what a British defender will.
I reckon for every dodgy tackle you find from British players, I can find as many and more from foreign players.
Apart from Taylor, can you remember any more bad technique and hammer feet tackles or tackles to hurt players from British players?
But since the last few weeks, I remember Carvalho against Barnsley, Makelele against West Ham, Eboue against Evra etc
Aren't these all supposed to be top quality international players that have played in Champions League finals/World Cup finals/Euro finals and aren't they all supposed to have 'better timing and technique'?!!
The tackle was clumsy... I am not saying the tackle was unlucky, but more so that Taylor and Eduardo were unlucky it resulted in a bad injury when 199/200 it would be a nothing incident.
This is why such a rare occurrence is not worth debating so hard and certainly not worth criticising Taylor for.
Taylor has only been sent off 1 time before and gets an average of about 1 booking per season.
I bet you any money that Fabio Cannavaro's disciplinary record is a lot worse, yet you choose to say that players like Taylor lack the timing and technique?
It's all a little contradictive mate.
My point was that it seems too easy to suggest that the people that are supporting Taylor in this are only doing so because it's 'the English way' of liking hard thuggish play etc... like some have suggested.
Anyway, all this nationality stuff is a little off the topic in my opinion.
Whilst I agree to a certain extent what gerd said that there are different views on tackling and such I think it is irrelevant to a certain level because there are players in every league in every country that make worse challenges than Taylor and you will see the EXACT same challenge many times this coming weekend in every league... the only reason you will not hear about it will be because there will not be an Eduardo there who is too quick for the defender.
Like you said, Taylor made a mistake, but that was because he never got the ball and he rightly got sent off.. let's make no mistake here because he deserved to get sent off because it ended up a bad tackle.
As I say, it would have been a brilliant tackle had it been a split second earlier.. this is why it was unlucky for everyone that this unfortunate injury happened.
You say it was poor technique from Taylor which I guess on this one occasion it was... but it was also great technique from Eduardo also... as I say it was just all round unlucky it happened because it is so rare and not worth making such a big deal out of although that may sound harsh on Eduardo... I am just atlking about the incident.
One thing that should be worth considering in all of this is while you put so much emphasis on English players not having the best timing or technical ablity to make a great tackle, they very rarely go in to foul a player or injure a fellow professional.
I would say that generally, foreign defenders for all their supposed 'better timing and better technique' will be much more likely to purposefully hack a player than what a British defender will.
I reckon for every dodgy tackle you find from British players, I can find as many and more from foreign players.
Apart from Taylor, can you remember any more bad technique and hammer feet tackles or tackles to hurt players from British players?
But since the last few weeks, I remember Carvalho against Barnsley, Makelele against West Ham, Eboue against Evra etc
Aren't these all supposed to be top quality international players that have played in Champions League finals/World Cup finals/Euro finals and aren't they all supposed to have 'better timing and technique'?!!
The tackle was clumsy... I am not saying the tackle was unlucky, but more so that Taylor and Eduardo were unlucky it resulted in a bad injury when 199/200 it would be a nothing incident.
This is why such a rare occurrence is not worth debating so hard and certainly not worth criticising Taylor for.
Taylor has only been sent off 1 time before and gets an average of about 1 booking per season.
I bet you any money that Fabio Cannavaro's disciplinary record is a lot worse, yet you choose to say that players like Taylor lack the timing and technique?
It's all a little contradictive mate.
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Rantboy
International
- 27 December 2002
- Fluminense FC / Arsenal
Wait a minute, let's not generalize our concepts of the english defender. This thing of all british CB's being uneducated thugs is all wrong. As I said before, you don't see Terry or Ferdinand too often involved in unfair challenges. It all depends on the class of the player.
But the fact is that, in smaller clubs, managers tell their defenders to come in kicking everything in front of them, even their mothers if needed, to be really intimidating. This happens in every country. And i know for a fact that one of Taylor's former managers told him to be more intimidating, saying that Taylor would make a good son-in-law, but not a good CB. So in this system, the defenders learn to be ruthless. But when they join a higher league or a Class "A" league, they have to get rid of that mentality, because football becomes more serious than that Sunday League philosophy.
But perhaps in England that mentality isn't changed too much, because it's a more fertile terrain for a more violent game. Maybe Taylor could be the less guilty of all people in this process. The FA, the press and the fans consider it to be your "everyday tackle", they find it very normal, so eveeryone will go on tackling carelessly. So when violent tackles fly over the pitch and they make no example out of any of those players, nothing changes. If they don't punish properly such a player and make an example of him, it WILL happen again with another player, don't worry, just a matter of time.
As Gerd said, the differences in this thread are really due to cultural differences towards football.
I've seen other people (not only Steevio) coming up with this "Eduardo was too fast for him" nonsense. Well, that is the idea, right? It's no excuse! I come from a place where is a good thing for a striker to be fast. It's a virtue. In England it was unfortunate of him. Too bad his was fast, cause if he wasn't he would be fine now.
It's remarks like these that take out the beauty of the game. In my opinion, the players have all the right to be fast and not have their legs split in two. But that's just me, I'm not saying I'm right and all...
But the fact is that, in smaller clubs, managers tell their defenders to come in kicking everything in front of them, even their mothers if needed, to be really intimidating. This happens in every country. And i know for a fact that one of Taylor's former managers told him to be more intimidating, saying that Taylor would make a good son-in-law, but not a good CB. So in this system, the defenders learn to be ruthless. But when they join a higher league or a Class "A" league, they have to get rid of that mentality, because football becomes more serious than that Sunday League philosophy.
But perhaps in England that mentality isn't changed too much, because it's a more fertile terrain for a more violent game. Maybe Taylor could be the less guilty of all people in this process. The FA, the press and the fans consider it to be your "everyday tackle", they find it very normal, so eveeryone will go on tackling carelessly. So when violent tackles fly over the pitch and they make no example out of any of those players, nothing changes. If they don't punish properly such a player and make an example of him, it WILL happen again with another player, don't worry, just a matter of time.
As Gerd said, the differences in this thread are really due to cultural differences towards football.
I've seen other people (not only Steevio) coming up with this "Eduardo was too fast for him" nonsense. Well, that is the idea, right? It's no excuse! I come from a place where is a good thing for a striker to be fast. It's a virtue. In England it was unfortunate of him. Too bad his was fast, cause if he wasn't he would be fine now.
It's remarks like these that take out the beauty of the game. In my opinion, the players have all the right to be fast and not have their legs split in two. But that's just me, I'm not saying I'm right and all...
steevio_uk
Premiership
- 7 October 2003
- West Ham
Again the whole point is it has bollocks all to do with the English game.
You see this challenge everyday, every league, every country in the world.
It's only on very, very, very rare occasions that it is unlucky that it results in a bad injury.
... and it's easier to blame it on the so called English mentality of it being 'acceptable because we are accepting of a more violent game', when more intentional fouling happens in the foreign game all the time.
gerd
Retired Footballer
Steevio, i think you don't get it....whether you like it or not, there are differences between the football played in England and on the continent.
Brittish football simply is more physical and "faster"...English defenders ARE less technical...but i will not convince you...
Just read Vialli's book about the differences between English and Italian football...very interesting read.
Brittish football simply is more physical and "faster"...English defenders ARE less technical...but i will not convince you...
Just read Vialli's book about the differences between English and Italian football...very interesting read.
steevio_uk
Premiership
- 7 October 2003
- West Ham
I know there's differences gerd, it is you that is missing the point.
I just disagree that it is anything to do with it when you regularly see the exact same type of challenges all the time around the world in every division.
It's just that 99.9% of them are not noticed because there was not an unlucky injury involved.
I just disagree that it is anything to do with it when you regularly see the exact same type of challenges all the time around the world in every division.
It's just that 99.9% of them are not noticed because there was not an unlucky injury involved.
gerd
Retired Footballer
Well i agree with both you and Ben (lo zio)...
Of course there will be horrific tackles in every league...nobody talks about Makelele's tackle you mentioned, because his victim wasn't injured...Taylor's "bad luck" is that Eduardo was seriously injured (of course the bad luck is Eduardo's)...
But, the Brittish game is the most physical in the world...it is a tradition. It's in the culture of their football game...you can see it in the way Brittish referees allow more physical contact (whether they are good or bad referees).
That's alos the reason why Brittish teams are victims of the "divers"...take Porto as an example. Celtic couldn't adapt to the way Porto played and the year after Man Utd had the same problems...Porto played very clever and made use of the physical play of both Celtic and Man Utd. If Porto-Celtic would have been refereed by an English ref or Porto-Man Utd by a Scotish one, then the Brittish clubs would have had a chance...now they were beaten by a more clever opponent (and Man Utd was the most stupid because they had the example of Celtic)...
I hope you understand what i want to say...
Of course there will be horrific tackles in every league...nobody talks about Makelele's tackle you mentioned, because his victim wasn't injured...Taylor's "bad luck" is that Eduardo was seriously injured (of course the bad luck is Eduardo's)...
But, the Brittish game is the most physical in the world...it is a tradition. It's in the culture of their football game...you can see it in the way Brittish referees allow more physical contact (whether they are good or bad referees).
That's alos the reason why Brittish teams are victims of the "divers"...take Porto as an example. Celtic couldn't adapt to the way Porto played and the year after Man Utd had the same problems...Porto played very clever and made use of the physical play of both Celtic and Man Utd. If Porto-Celtic would have been refereed by an English ref or Porto-Man Utd by a Scotish one, then the Brittish clubs would have had a chance...now they were beaten by a more clever opponent (and Man Utd was the most stupid because they had the example of Celtic)...
I hope you understand what i want to say...
steevio_uk
Premiership
- 7 October 2003
- West Ham
Of course I understand.
To be honest we both agree that it was unfortunate and Taylor has had harsh criticism.
That is the main point and I guess the rest is neither here nor there and just people's different views based on how they see the game.
What it doesn't do is make English fans any more or any less able to identify a bad challenge which Taylor's intentionally meant to be.
To be honest we both agree that it was unfortunate and Taylor has had harsh criticism.
That is the main point and I guess the rest is neither here nor there and just people's different views based on how they see the game.
What it doesn't do is make English fans any more or any less able to identify a bad challenge which Taylor's intentionally meant to be.