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Comparing ISS[64/PSX] to the current WINNING ELEVEN.

Discussion in 'Winning Eleven' started by jumbo, 14 April 2006.

  1. jumbo

    jumbo Premiership

    30 May 2003
    WE Heaven
    I know you guys are gonna bitch me out for this, saying that the N64 versions have nothing to do with Winning Eleven. NOT TRUE. ISS98 N64 is the N64 version of ISS98 PSX which is WE3. ISS2000 N64 is the N64 version of ISSProEvo which is Winning Eleven 4. It is TRUE that the N64 versions are slightly different than the PSX ones but at core they are the same game.

    I own the N64 versions and also used to own ISSPro PSX. The PSX versions are what evolved into what we know today as Winning Eleven. The N64 versions, sadly, died along with N64.

    I wanted to talk a little about the features of the ISSN64 games. Every now and then, I get bored with WE PS2, and I go back to ISS98. I have been playing it a few days now. I don't know why, I just find the game a bit more fun, especially in multiplayer.

    I'll be referring to ISS98 N64 since that is the game I'm currently playing.

    Cool features? Gone? Where!?

    1. Curling. Back in the good old day, you could curl the shots, chips, crosses. The Z button the N64 controller served the purpouse of curling. After the shot/cross, you could hold Z+Dir and curl the ball any way you wanted. Yes, I do agree it was slightly overdone in some instances but amazing goals could be created such as the banana shot into the far corner over the goalie which is almost imossible in WE.

    2. Crossing. Back in the good old day, a chip shot, a long thru ball, a long pass/cross and lifing (of the ball) were executed by the same button - LeftC. How is that possible? Think of real life - what do all these have in common? You kick the ball exactly the same, only adjust the power/height. It's exactly the same in the game. The physics are spot on. There is no scripting. The ball doesn't gravitate toward a player/object as it does in WE. You can really do amazing things with this, most importantly you can cross the ball anywhere into the PK/space by combining LeftC with Z.

    Even though WE has a manual crossing mode (I use type 5), the ball hardly ever curls plus you can't even control the curl. It is almost impossible to hit crosses into space.

    *Football Kingdom uses similar system.

    3. Ground play. 10 years ago a very smart person used their great programming knowledge to allow us to pass / clear the ball while our player is down on the ground. When your player falls and this happens very often for exp. a defender in a 1vs1, he still has a chance to reach and clear the ball while on the ground. Why was this feature removed?

    4. Free Kicks. FKs in Winning Eleven are weak. Everybody knows that. Soft spots/glitches, or whatever you call them, have been part of WE for some time and do not seem to be going anywhere anytime soon. Over the wall and into the unguarded space - it's a GOAL! If you've been playing WE for a while, you most likely find it easier to score than to miss from 20-30m.

    I have never scored a FK in a match, on ISS on N64. I do not think I've ever seen CPU score one either. Even though you have the big arrow to help your aiming, it is still almost impossible to score.

    I also wanted to mention the PKs. Honestly, anything is better than the current PK system. The ball goes wide often and there is really only 9 places you can put the ball in. On ISS, both the keeper and the PK taker have the ability to aim their dive / shot using the square block indicators. This helps but in no way makes the PK predictable or easy to save.

    *On a side note, Football Kingdom has probably the best PK system ever.

    5. Quick FK Restart. Even though the feature is making a comeback in WE10, why the hell was it taken out? In ISS98, when you are fouled, there is no loading screen. The play is simply stopped, you get the ball back and play on. No resetting positions, no nothing.

    6. The atmosphere. In ISS98, the moment you enter the stadium, you can smell football. The grass is green, the fans are loud. Maybe it's just me but I have reasons to believe WE5-9 use only a 256 color pallete. The colors seem washed out, unnatural while ISS hits your eyes with all 16 million colors. When you score you can actually hear the crowd and maybe it's just me but I love how the big, golden number pops up to show the score while in WE when you score it seems pretty causual like it doesn't even matter that you scored.

    I think the grass textures deserve to be mentioned. They are brilliant in ISS while in WE9, they simply suck. Hey, a pic's worth a thousand words, so see for yourself.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Man, WE9 is so cool. Wait, how much has actually changed?

    I was playing ISS98 today against my brother and I have to tell you I was surprised to see many things I thought were exclusive to the current gen WEs.

    For starters. Besides the Z and C buttons the controls in the N64 ver are exactly the same as in WE PS2. The PSX version are probably the same as those now as far as I remember. For exmaple the pass feint. I was really surprised to see my player jump over the ball or lift his foot over the ball to let it run after pressing the dash/dribble button. Works exactly as in WE9. You know how in WE9 you can lift the ball with R4? Over the defender and volley? You can do that in ISS using LeftC while standing in place. Jumping with the ball, spring boost after the dribble, the tactics and formations, etc.

    Seems as if the core hasn't changed much since the earliest versions. Yes, the graphics have gotten better, the presentation, the modes but the gameplay, the technical side, has taken just as many steps backwards as it has forward. Some may agree, some may not. For some of you who have been playing the series since the beginning this is probably nothing new.

    That's just my observation, I'm not pointing fingers. I just hope that Seabass & Co. bring back some of the good features in the future.

    Take care. will update this as I continue playing. I still love WE. :)
     
  2. the_thing

    the_thing ps3!

    4 August 2004
    Toronto
    Juve, MU
    there are also a lot of fun parts in the game such as dropkicking the ball into ur own net with the goalkeeper and tackling the goalkeeper aswell. its pretty obvious why these 2 particular things have been taken out but it was always fun doing this. especially when ur playing against the computer with a friend. watching their reaction after you score an own goal was classic.
     
    Last edited: 14 April 2006
  3. Riquelme

    Riquelme Non-League

    5 April 2006
    Lyon
    OL, Villarreal
    The best feature there was in ISS 64 was the ability to juggle with the ball. Maintening the long pass boutton without direction would lift the ball (as you said) and the player would juggle, stopping only when you let go the boutton. While maintenning you could put a direction and the player would move keeping on juggling. And you could do this without moving and when receiving the ball from a high and low pass.
    The possibilities were amazing.
    With this thread you gave me the envy to buy back a N64 with ISS 64 or 98.
     
  4. NickSCFC

    NickSCFC Banned

    18 July 2003
    Stoke-on-Trent, UK
    Stoke City/Liverpool
    What a load of mumbo jumbo!
     
  5. kobashi

    kobashi Champions League

    19 May 2004
    thanks for this man!!

    do you think the DS version will be similar?
     
  6. Chris Davies

    Chris Davies At least, I think I am Staff

    14 May 2003
    Tranmere Rovers
    I played Winning Eleven 6: FE last week (with the WE:UK patch applied to it), after reading ClassicD's thread about how the gameplay has developed delays and bugs ever since the initial versions of Pro Evo. And I'll tell you what, I'm not playing WE9 again.

    The game is a LOT more fun, and a LOT more fair. The referees don't ruin the flow of the game, when you press pass they pass, when you press shoot they shoot, and it's all-round a hell of a lot more fun.

    If WE10 really is WE9¼, then I can see myself playing WE6FE until this time next year.
     
  7. ash

    ash DeMinistrator

    21 March 2004
    London
    Man Utd
    People don't quote the entire first post, only certain sections to keep the thread clean :)

    Anyway, good read.
     
  8. jumbo

    jumbo Premiership

    30 May 2003
    WE Heaven
    Here is it. The PlayStation versions were developed by KCET while KCEO programmed the game for Nintendo64. Although both team took different approaches in creating their respective versions, they games did not differ much and most importantly the WE gameplay as you want to call it was always the same.

    The PSX versions were always slower, and inferior as far options, etc. The N64 versions were fluid and a bit more dynamic. Perhaps this is why people have this preconception that the Nintendo versions were arcadey when in fact they were better.

    And now onto more facts:

    1996 -> The series go 3D. Perfect Striker is the 64 version of Goal Storm / Winning Eleven 1 PSX.

    1997 -> ISS 64 is the N64 version of Winning Eleven 2 / ISS Pro PSX.

    1998 -> ISS 98 is the N64 version of Winning Eleven 3 / ISS 98 PSX.

    1999 -> Perfect Striker 4 is the N64 version of Winning Eleven 4 PSX.

    2000 -> ISS 2000 is the N64 version of Winning Eleven 2000 / ISS Pro Evo PSX.

    2001 -> PSX gets Winning Eleven 5, marks the end of the N64 series. Winning Eleven based off of the PSX releases comes to life on the next-gen systems.



    *** The ISS games later released on PS2/GC/XBox are completely different games. They were new series that went into a completely new direction. I do know know why they were and still are being associated with the N64 version of ISS.





    To clear this up, yes the PSX and the N64 vers of ISS were different due to the fact that they were coded by different teams within KONAMI but they share the same origin.

    While ISS 2000 is different than ISS Pro Evo, it was released as its equivalent.

    And lastly, the 64 versions were superior. I'm not saying they were perfect though. Who knows what could have been if WE was based on both versions instead of just the PSX one. Like I said earlier, lots of good features gone...
     
    Last edited: 14 April 2006
  9. Slobber

    Slobber boycotting PES

    3 August 2003
    Merseyside, England
    Liverpool FC
    Completely agree, Jumbo. I always wished the N64 ISS games were tweaked to make them more realistic.
     
  10. NickSCFC

    NickSCFC Banned

    18 July 2003
    Stoke-on-Trent, UK
    Stoke City/Liverpool
    ISS 2000 was garbage compared to ISS Pro Evolution 2!
     
  11. johan

    johan Guest

    Interesting thread to say the least.

    I haven't played my ISS 98 for a long time but I remember it was alot of fun if not more then playing current WE versions.

    But Jumbo I can tell you this bro, I scored a dozen of FK in ISS 98. How ??

    You lower that arrow all the way down the ground and you aim it right btw defenders legs.. once you hit a powerful kick the ball will still be on the ground, the wall will jump and the GK has no chance of getting the ball..actually that was really easy, you only had to discover it.

    ISS98 had this bug that you could score a goal with Zidane or a good shooter from lets say 35m all the time.. the keeper will never be able to catch the ball.. they fixed this in WE/PES.

    I think ISS 64,98 were good games and all but today we have WE/PES that you really have to use your brain and be creative with formation, strategies, etc.

    I loved the fact you could mess around with the ball and have freestyle.. in ISS 98.

    But the presentation like you said..is sick and a thousand times better then our current WE/PES versions..
     
  12. jumbo

    jumbo Premiership

    30 May 2003
    WE Heaven
    ISS 2000 is the equivalent of Winning Eleven 4 whereas ISSProEvo2 is Winning Eleven 5.
     
  13. ClassicD

    ClassicD Galáctico

    11 November 2001
    Glasgow
    Celtic
    I never played the N64 versions, but everytime I read about them I heard nothing but great things. I always associated the 'ISS' series on PS2, etc with the N64 games because of the style of play (360 control, etc), but I suppose it makes more sense if they weren't made by the same team because they were very poor while the N64's game was supposedly great.

    Disagree that it was just the 'N64 version' of WE though. Completely different engine and development team, just like ISS on PS2 - it just so happened that ISS on N64 was also a great game while on PS2 it was awful.

    Quick point mate, how the fact you've never scored or seen scored a FK on the N64 version is a good thing I don't know, if that's what you're saying? That to me is a rather obvious fault in the game. The WE FK-system needs some tweaks like moveable walls and a better job made of the alternate kicker option but for the most part, it's got the shooting skill down pretty well IMO.
     
  14. jumbo

    jumbo Premiership

    30 May 2003
    WE Heaven
    I don't understand how the engines could possibly be completely different. Despite the lack of TRIANGLE and CIRCLE on the N64 pad, the controls are nearly the same as in the PSX version with the Chip and Thruball assigned to C. The game features some of the animations found in today's WE games which have not changed much. The ball physics are the same as in ISSProEvo. The control is not 360. It's 9 direction.

    To me, it seems more like 2 varations of the one engine. One being tight, responsive and more varied and the other a bit more slower and balanced.

    As far as the FKs, Johan said he didn't have any problems so I guess it's just me. I find FKs in WE9 ridiculously easy to score.





    Another feature I found in ISS98 today is long keeper throws. Weren't they introduced in WE9 or WE8? What about dropping the ball with the keeper. Wasn't that suppousedly introduced in 6FE or something? What about the linesmen and the ref? They're all in ISS98 yet somehow the ref came was introduced to WE when, WE8?

    That to me that seems laughable. It's like KONAMI pulls certain features out to bring them back later and label as new. Or if N64 is in fact a completely different game, then KONAMI TOKYO seems a bit slow catching up with the features introduced by a different Dev almost 10 years ago.
     
    Last edited: 14 April 2006
  15. NickSCFC

    NickSCFC Banned

    18 July 2003
    Stoke-on-Trent, UK
    Stoke City/Liverpool
    No, WE4 was ISSPE1. The games are nothing alike, I remember ISS64 98 having players that just span on the spot, garbage I reckon.
     
  16. ClassicD

    ClassicD Galáctico

    11 November 2001
    Glasgow
    Celtic
    I never played it, I assumed it was 360 control, sorry.

    Did the game have the option of instant replays? There are so many things I remember when ISS 64 was out that took ages to make their way into WE, that's why I think they are completely seperate.I don't see how KTYO/KCET could play the game, see all the things such as the PK system, moveable wall (I'm assuming again here), and then go on to make many games which had vastly inferior systems and not bother to change them.
     
  17. jumbo

    jumbo Premiership

    30 May 2003
    WE Heaven
    Yes there are instant replays in 64. There are manual replays too which I believe were introduced in WE7.

    Perhaps I am wrong on the control, I will clear this up.
     
    Last edited: 14 April 2006
  18. ClassicD

    ClassicD Galáctico

    11 November 2001
    Glasgow
    Celtic
    That's what I'm saying, I can't see how the games were developed by anything other than completely different sets of people if it took the WE team that length of time to implement such a basic feature.
     
  19. jumbo

    jumbo Premiership

    30 May 2003
    WE Heaven
    Yes, I agree with that.

    But it still seems to me that both version share some of the same gameplay elements.

    I have the system hooked up to my PC now. I will post a video later.
     
  20. johan

    johan Guest

    jumbo - WE10 will be your soulmate :)
     
  21. iceobar

    iceobar Tyneside Amateur League

    3 September 2003
    Phoenix - unfortantely
    Watford FC
    nah jumbos soulmate is mrs hand and her five children :)
     
  22. tuta

    tuta Marseillais

    21 November 2004
    France
    Marseille
    I love the fact that you could do "chest control". You could prepare your next move easily by just pressing one button while the ball was in the air. It was possible to score great goals with that and do very fast counter attacks.

    I own all the N64 versions and my favourite is the 98 because funnier (lot of powerful shots, great curves, volleys from the middle (when your player had the ability of volley combined with long Shot :mrgreen:, that was my speciality !!!).

    About specialities, that's a major aspect of the games. The difference was big between players with skills or not. That was excellent.
     
  23. BumperMan

    BumperMan Champions League

    20 June 2005
    North America
    Legia Warsaw
    I'm hoping even better the ds can clean up the visuals too ohh I can't wait
     
  24. jumbo

    jumbo Premiership

    30 May 2003
    WE Heaven
    If the DS version is anything like the N64 series, it'll be officialy the best game ever.
     
  25. ntalex

    ntalex Conference

    8 January 2004
    Ukraine, Kyiv
    Obolon, Kyiv
    Never thought, that “new cool features” were already used in previous versions.
     
  26. jumbo

    jumbo Premiership

    30 May 2003
    WE Heaven
    You would be surprised at how many more cool features seen in in the previous versions are still not in WE ten years later.

    Here's another one - the 2 person freekick, whatever that is called is present in ISS98. I have no idea how I did but I had one player start running toward the ball and the other one that was standin over the ball quickly turns around and hits over the wall into bar. Man, I was like WHAAAAAAAA???????

    Wasn't this one of the NEW features in WE8, this new FK type?









    Man, I'm strating to getting some wierd conclusions. I will definately investigate this further.
     
  27. ntalex

    ntalex Conference

    8 January 2004
    Ukraine, Kyiv
    Obolon, Kyiv
    If u didn’t make it out (suppose not), I’m really impressed!
    98 compare to 2005 still fresh!
    BTW
    any features that still wasn't included?
     
  28. Mauras

    Mauras Premiership

    7 October 2002
    I played ISS, ISS Pro Evo 1 and 2 in the PSX and let me tell you: never again did Konami deliver such quality, the closer they got was with WE6FE and WE7FE.

    the truth is that ISS Pro Evo 1 and 2 in the PSX really made the best players win the games. The true dribbler would dominate, since there wasn't a single "combo dribble" except the fake shot. All was done as in reality: changes of pace, quick shwifts of direction and ... creativity. You could really feel the power of being more creative than your opponent. Heading was much more realistic, as you still had to wait for the right moments to cross but you didn't have that feeling of "I'm missing 9 ou of 10 crosses & headers, whatever I do".

    Pro Evo versions could not be as realistic as today versions but they were surely the best compromise between fun and realism that konami ever delivered.
     
  29. jumbo

    jumbo Premiership

    30 May 2003
    WE Heaven
    Exactly Mauras, these games were fun. Exactly why im playin them.

    I'm purchasing ISS98 for PSX so I'll compare both version for you guys.
     
  30. BumperMan

    BumperMan Champions League

    20 June 2005
    North America
    Legia Warsaw
    :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:
     

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