What do you like and dislike about PES 2009?

[Chris Davies]

This is a genuine question; after playing PES 2009 again for the past few days I've found myself having fun when playing it with friends. While there's things I like about it and things I don't, I find it's actually a good laugh when you're playing it with real people in the same house but there's obviously some frustrating issues with it. The universal opinion seems to be that it is garbage and I'd just like to know what people think is good about the game and what is bad about it. (Just to see if they match up with my opinions more than anything!)

So what do you love/hate about PES 2009?

 

[*aLe]

Well I must admit I uninstalled it some time ago (I reinstalled an old copy of WE9 with custom teams and characters to play with, instead, and it's fun).. But the last time I played with it has been two weeks ago at a friend of mine..

We managed to connect the PC to his widescreen LCD TV and well, I agree that playing against friends is some fun, something that you can't feel when you play on your own (indeed I find PES6 way more entertaining and "engaging" when played against friends too)..

I quite enjoyed the game flow (we played some matches with the Pesmania patch in which I chose in the order Standard Liège, Parma, Fiorentina and then Real Madrid against in the order Corinthians, Chelsea, Juventus and Barcelona) but just because there was a human against me that knew exactly how to play, so I had to find anytime something different to get past his defense.. This is something you really can't say when you play alone against the CPU..

Things I didn't like were the goalies (but well, when you play against friends you may even have a laugh at them and let it all go) and the way "single players" behaved in general: no closing down and that "auto-tackle" feature ruined the experience..
I had to play all the matches holding down the "square" button just to hope some of my teammates went to challenge the opponent with the ball while I tried to close down the spaces in which he would have tried to get the pass.. But these players of mine often ended up fouling the opponent (thing I never told them to do) on their own..
Not to mention the misplaced or too weak (or even overhit, I can't wonder why) passes to teammates that were at most 5 metres far..

Anyway I was on the rampage that day, so anything could have got on my nerves with an ease you can't imagine..

 

[Nick Cave]

I think my main gripes would be:
- ML (spit)...
- Speeeeeeddddd Whoooshhhhhh....
- Rails and "cheats"...
- ML (spit) so bad I have to have that twice...
- Presentation, "I designed PES 2009 front end on my PC and I am eleven years old"...
- The feeling I'm playing the same thing as three years ago but with less stuff in it...
- Did I mention the ML (spit)...

 

[Jimmy G-Force]

This is a genuine question; after playing PES 2009 again for the past few days I've found myself having fun when playing it with friends. While there's things I like about it and things I don't, I find it's actually a good laugh when you're playing it with real people in the same house but there's obviously some frustrating issues with it. The universal opinion seems to be that it is garbage and I'd just like to know what people think is good about the game and what is bad about it. (Just to see if they match up with my opinions more than anything!)

So what do you love/hate about PES 2009?

I hate - Auto challenge tackles. Glitch on free-kick takers, the odd misplaced pass. Certain rigid animations. Although I do appreciate where Konami have come from with it, they need a huge variation in body angles to replicate the striking stances, passing stances, balance, etc etc.

I love - The complete individuality of each and every player. No one player is the the same in touch, pass, vision, positioning, shooting, accuracy, aggression, etc etc etc etc etc etc ......

The shooting is all about angles, timing, ability, technique etc etc.

The passing both manual and standard are much harder to pick, but more realistic for it. It creates bad passes, scrappy play, very realistic to modern day football. Watching Boro v Newcastle play live a few months back on T.V was like playing Newcastle with Boro in my Masterleague to the point it was so similar it was scary.

Loved BAL, needs work but still an awesome addition.

Tweaked ML would be nice but we still have Premier League, Uefa, CL, full seasons, scouting, training players. You can build your own team and bring them along with a feeling of real bonding with your 'boys'. Again because each player is totally unique. My best siging so far has been Lavezzi from Napoli, a different class. ML hasnt added much over the years. But there isnt much more they can add.

I dont agree with scripted passes 100%, the passes are relevant to your players technique and ability. Give Lamps the ball or Deco and he will pick the pass Essien probably cant. Again, individuality that doesnt appear in any other football game anywhere near the extent it does in PES.

The skills are very hard to pull off. So they should be.

The performance arrows and the way you can 'gamble'on regulating your players arrows are superb and mean so much. Totally replicating real life. Rooney doesnt always have a stormer, and on PES if he is on a 'blue' or 'grey' he wont play as well. On a red arrow he is unplayable. So when he isnt 100%, giving other players with better 'arrows' a chance, and them stepping up and playing well adds so much to the game. And gives you selection headaches. I love that aspect. It's so real. In real life when my confidence is high I can be a right handful, when I'm on a 'blue' if you like, I can play like I have two left feet. PES catches this element brilliantly for me.

PES2009 is really fun, realistic and engaging. It can also be extremely frustrating as well, especially when your players are tired, have poor 'arrows' and dont perform to their ability. Which again adds to the realism. See Man Utd in the CL final.

Every game is totally different. I personally dont see any cheating by the AI and I play on Top Player and Hard on ML. No issues for me on that score. If I did find CPU cheating then it would seriously effect my judgement. PES2008 was horrific. PES 2009 is the best one I have ever played. You need to give it time. It teaches you to think about everything, you cant play it the same way you play previous PES games. And thats why I think people have dismissed it so early.

Dig deeper, give it time, and you will realise this is as close to simulating real football as it gets.

 

[Nick Cave]

Tweaked ML would be nice but we still have Premier League, Uefa, CL, full seasons, scouting, training players. You can build your own team and bring them along with a feeling of real bonding with your 'boys'. Again because each player is totally unique. My best siging so far has been Lavezzi from Napoli, a different class. ML hasnt added much over the years. But there isnt much more they can add.

PES2009 is really fun, realistic and engaging. It can also be extremely frustrating as well, especially when your players are tired, have poor 'arrows' and dont perform to their ability. Which again adds to the realism. See Man Utd in the CL final.

 

[Jimmy G-Force]

Please Nicholas, enlighten us ? What more would you add ? What else in a regards to a Football season would you like to see added ?

I just think your being a bit harsh, yes it needs some revamping, but alot of what goes on throughout a typical season is in the ML, licences permitted.

Every ML is different with regards playability depending on the version of PES. I havent played a ML since PES5 to be honest, but on PES 2009 I'm seven seasons in and loved every season.

 

[Kaiser]

I agree with the master league needing a overhaul. It has been that format since bloddy ISS!!!!! How hard can it be to have a team like Arsenal play in the English league without having to change every other team layout.

In BAL on PS2 there was 5 leagues you could choose to play into.
French
English
Spanish
Italian
Dutch

In the "next gen" version we have 4 with one being europes mixed sides
Robotic movement of player, every shot straight down the keepers throat, keepers over parrying the ball. The R2 press when shooting never works on the next gen version.

BUT i do enjoy playing a wee toury with my mates, it does bring that enjoyment of human v human. I'd still play this over FIFA anyday

more teams from bigger leagues, less from Scandanavia(does anybody actually go Helsinki? Que list of players saying i do!!)

It needs to be loved again

 

[Chris Davies]

I agree with Nick that the ML is terrible, that's been a pet hate of mine for years. If you support a big team (or you enjoy playing as one) I'm sure it's a better experience but as someone who has only ever played football games to get a lower-league team through a few leagues and go on a few cup-runs, it's not great fun. I'd love to see even one lower league for each country in the game.

I've been playing it again today and one of my biggest annoyances is that there's not a lot of game modes that are very enjoyable to me (which is something else I complained about for years); I've sat down to play it with friends as more than just a demo, and all we can do is play friendlies or play against the CPU. We used to play against eachother - so say I'm Liverpool in the CL they would all control the opposition team and try to knock me out of the cup. You can't do that, and you can't select every team in the cup and "simulate" the matches that don't involve your team like you can in FIFA, so... Yeah, all that we can do is play friendlies or play against the CPU, neither of which is very exciting.

That really annoys me because people say gameplay is the most important thing - maybe so - but I've always said (and people have argued) that if you don't have a variety of teams and enough to do, enough competitions to win etc. then as far as I'm concerned it's wasted. I really am disappointed that we were enjoying the demo and now we've got the full game there's not a lot we can do with it...

Saying that, I do appreciate that the response times are good, players do feel different and it's nice to be able to score a long-range shot with Gerrard again!

 

[Jimmy G-Force]

I agree with Nick that the ML is terrible, that's been a pet hate of mine for years. If you support a big team (or you enjoy playing as one) I'm sure it's a better experience but as someone who has only ever played football games to get a lower-league team through a few leagues and go on a few cup-runs, it's not great fun. I'd love to see even one lower league for each country in the game.

Chris I would love lower league teams in PES, but again, its EA's monopoly on the licence. I play with Boro, who are crap by the way, so ML is great for me to build a team Gibson, Southgate, Robson et al cant.

We play weekly tournaments with my mates and have done for 19 years, on all the various Football games we have had at our disposal. As for ML, I really enjoyed it this time around, never been blown away with the variations of gameplay,results, players, etc as I have with this one.

For me BAL is a brilliant experience, I spent well over 300 hours on that alone.

I would love the Championship in with the Premier League, at least it would add more to the realism of the footballing physics. Which is afterall what I'm most bothered about.

 

[Chris Davies]

They could include them unlicensed though Jimmy, that's the thing. Give them all fake team names, fake player names too if needs be. The PL has 18/20 teams unlicensed so it's not like it would look weird. There's no excuse, apart from the fact that they don't have enough researchers/inputters and Konami won't chuck Seabass enough money to employ a few more. It's not his fault but you'd think with the money they're raking in from the game, and the possibility of selling as much as (or more than) FIFA because it has the amount of leagues (and variety) to compete, they'd be a bit more enthusiastic.

I'm trying BAL now, it seems really good but I've been playing training matches for half a season with no first team game. Surely I can't be worse than Hull's other central midfielders? I've dabbled with it before though and I love the fact that you don't start every game etc., and all the awards you can get.

 

[RuneEdge]

The only problem I've had with the game is when you tell it to do something and it doesnt do it. Actually theres that and also how some reactions in the game are random. Like when you recieve the ball, instead of controlling it, you sometimes knock it too far forward for no reason or sometimes you control it too slow for no reason. Its bad enough that this happens but it seems to only happen when you really dont want it to happen like when you're through on goal. Its basically the CPU cheating IMO.
Other than that, I've always thought PES was a lot more fun than FIFA. Everything else was almost perfect (apart from crazy cheat players like the Kakas and the Messis with their dribbling or the Adrianos with their power shots).

I guess this is why people enjoy this a lot more with their mates or online cuz theres no CPU bias.

 

[Nick Cave]

Please Nicholas, enlighten us ? What more would you add ? What else in a regards to a Football season would you like to see added ?

I just think your being a bit harsh, yes it needs some revamping, but alot of what goes on throughout a typical season is in the ML, licences permitted.

Every ML is different with regards playability depending on the version of PES. I havent played a ML since PES5 to be honest, but on PES 2009 I'm seven seasons in and loved every season.

Jimmy in an ideal world it needs to be a complete Sim of the real world, so each major country would have it's correct league structure, I'd like to include things like the non league in this too but I fear both titles are a long way off this. What is the point in striving for realism on the pitch and have fantasy land off it.

The sides could be unlicensed so we could always go in and edit them, I know I bash on in both the PES and EA forums about this but it's fundamental to me.

I put about 15-20 hours min, a week into the ML and now the same in the MM, it's an area that both sides have the chance to stand out above the other.
As EA seem to have dropped the batten on this by almost doing a Konami and tweaking instead of developing, Konami have the chance to close the gap; another bout of add a couple of teams and a tweak here and there, Champions league licence or not, it won't cut it...

 

[Jimmy G-Force]

Jimmy in an ideal world it needs to be a complete Sim of the real world, so each major country would have it's correct league structure, I'd like to include things like the non league in this too but I fear both titles are a long way off this. What is the point in striving for realism on the pitch and have fantasy land off it.

Very true Nick, it just wont happen anytime soon mate. For me though its all about the true physics and the real technical aspects of how a ball is passed, struck,received via 1st touch etc etc. Everything else is secondary.

For Pro Evo to have Fifa's presentation, commentary and licences would be my perfect game. Until then I'll play the game the most mimics footballing physics in the way I perceive it to be.

And Chris, hang in there man, I signed for Hull after getting sent off in my trial game. It took me half a season before I got on the bench, and somehow scored the winner against Sunderland on my debut, after being introduced after 70 mins. I got lucky with the strike, as my stats didnt deserve the top corner finish from 25 yards. But it happens, lesser players can score maybe one of the those in every 25 attempts, that was my one, never did it again till I had really improved my shooting accuracy.

The best thing about my spell at Hull though was Giovanni. What a player, his vision in midfield was superb compared to everyone else, he found my runs like nobody else could. I loved playing with him in my team.

P.S. After my debut goal against Sunderland and winner in a 1-0 scoreline. The gaffa dropped me for the next game, never even got a sub apperance. Guess he was trying to keep my feet on the ground. Lol.

Also, I found it much better using wide cam with it following the ball rather than the default up/down cam. You need to keep an eye on the radar but it was far more enjoyable for me that way. Plus you can time your runs off the radar.

 

[Jimmy G-Force]

The only problem I've had with the game is when you tell it to do something and it doesnt do it. Actually theres that and also how some reactions in the game are random. Like when you recieve the ball, instead of controlling it, you sometimes knock it too far forward for no reason

I agree to an extent, but I found using the left stick to kind of caress the ball as it approaches you helps alot. Again, varying players technique applies.

 

[Rob92]

I like:
Player individuality
Being able to dribble past the AI defenders
(well, that was a long list...)

I hate:
Everything else, mainly these:
Useless manual passing (may as well not be there)
Scripted normal passing
Rubbish AI (ruins BAL)
Retarded keepers
PS1-like animations and very basic collision system
Attributes for "non-superstar" players, most are underrated/wrongly rated (some of them can't play simple passes without underhitting them and sometimes there's no point shooting with them because they will fuck up even the easiest chance, they're still professional players ffs, should be able to do that stuff with ease no matter who they are)
Master League - Shit mode, was acceptable 5 or 6 years ago but not now.


PES is still a bit of fun for offline multiplayer games but why would I play 09 when PES5 is so superior to it in every way (apart from graphics)?

So overall PES 2009 is a really crap unrealistic game and a disgrace to this generation if you compare it to the amount of innovation and realism in other games (football games and others).

 

[Jamezinho]

I've actually just gone and bought PES2009 (it's so cheap now), and I never thought I would. After getting mind-numbingly bored with Fifa, I've been playing the demo again I strangely enjoyed the game. Once I put aside the game's obvious pitfalls and annoyances the PES magic is still there.

We've talked about the problems with the game ad nausea, but what I really like is the unpredictability, the weight of the ball, the player individuality and the shooting. Also the edit mode, which I love tinkering with.

 

[Chris Davies]

That's exactly what I did Jamezinho, haha.

Just come off a few hours session now, got a few more things to add but most of them bad.

Tried a few online games... Oh my. I thought FIFA was bad with the fully assisted kiddies, this is ten times worse. Not so much the lag, which everyone complains about and is there but I didn't find too disheartening - more the fact that there seems to be a "sweet spot" either side of the edge of the area. One guy would beat a man and get into the box, one-on-one with the goalkeeper, and not shoot - he'd pass it back to the guy standing in the sweet spot instead. And I thought FIFA was bad for teams but at least you do get SOME difference, albeit every little. I didn't get one guy who didn't pick Barca, not one.

Be A Legend... Well I've sat there playing practice games and skipping a few, for three hours, without getting a single fucking game! What do you have to do?! Alright you can say nobody plays a first team game at seventeen - so why start the mode off at seventeen then? It's not just that but there's no reserve league like there is in FIFA, so IT'S THE SAME MATCH EVERY SINGLE TIME! The first eleven against the reserve eleven, again and again and again. I only stopped playing it to look on here and see if there's a "cheat" way to get yourself a first team place.

Once again this is what I mean about gameplay not being everything, the latter gripe is something unrelated to gameplay but ruins the game for me, the former (although gameplay related) ruins the online game for me, and the stuff I mentioned before about offline multiplayer ruins that for me as well. It's so frustrating, there's not a lot of modes left.

I like some of it but overall I feel like it's way too easy to play it; I don't like the goalkeepers who couldn't catch a cold, the shooting which is more random than Vic and Bob on acid, and I do feel like it's scripted to hell. Also, there's the cheats RuneEdge mentioned - they are definitely cheats, I 100% agree with you and I see it all the time. You get a chance to move around a player and suddenly the reaction times cut in half and the ball's gone. Anywhere else on the pitch, the response times are a dream. Get near the box and take on a defender, and what a coincidence, you can't fucking move! Bullshit. (Sorry but it's really annoying me now.)

I'd say FIFA is the better game and I'd say it's more of a simulation as well, and I think they've used a lot more common sense in a lot of places (i.e. you don't play the exact same game week in week out 40+ times a year, you have a reserve league to play in).

The few things I'll give it, and they're all important parts of the game granted... Player individuality does make a definite difference, in-fact that's what makes playing against friends so enjoyable. Plus, it's so nice to be able to put a Gerrard shot into the corner, without it rising towards the end of the shot every time. And the edit mode is great, although frankly I hate the work involved - it's just nice to be able to fix anything that isn't quite right. (Why on earth do they let you have a huge amount of faces and only 40 club badges though, why do they insist on these ridiculous restrictions? You give us so many face slots that aren't really needed to enjoy the game IMO, yet when it comes to badge slots - to make sure every team has their real badge - you only let us import 40, what the fuck are these guys on?)

 

[Jimmy G-Force]

I find it really strange that I have played over 7 seasons on ML on Top Player and not noticed any cheating ? I guess I've learnt to play the game the way its supposed to be played. With patience and precision. If the pass isnt on, dont even try and attempt it unless your aiming the correct way or using a player with excellent vision and passing accuracy. You get nothing in this game unless it's deserved, trust me.

Instead, be patient, wait for the available man, if its not on, start again, build again from the back, just like real football a pass isnt always on.

Chris, you need to play the reserve games, impress the boss by either your tackling, passing or scoring. He will then put you in the first team, then you have to impress again to get on the bench, otherwise your back in the B Team.There is no easy solution, you earn the right. Read the Bal thread, Cass explains Bal perfectly.

Like I say I have played many, many, many hours, and if it had the cheating aspects so obvious as stated I wouldnt play it. Forget anything you knew about the old PES's or WE's, this is a total different ball game, quite literally.

Yes its alot harder, but persevere and you will see the genius. If you dont, you wont. Dont play it like Fifa because it so isnt, and vice versa.

If you have a PS3 download the Von option file its awesome, full kits, players, badges, chants, everything.

 

[Chris Davies]

I do play with patience Jimmy, it takes me ages (not being very good which I admit) to get into a shooting position, but then sometimes when you press the shoot button the guy will keep on walking/running for about a second, just enough time for the opposition defender to take the ball. I remember someone - I think it was Mart - saying last year or the year before that he doesn't regard it a cheat, more that the CPU has a bit of extra work to do and it's maybe bottlenecking a bit causing the delay. Either way, it's really, really frustrating and it's definitely there (several people who play the game more than I will have mentioned it).

Cheers for the link to the Von option file, I was using a different one and I noticed a few errors. It's another 20 minutes copying every single file over but that's Sony's fault I suppose. Worth it in the end though, I have to say the facial graphics are great, especially the edited ones.

 

[Jamezinho]

The few things I'll give it, and they're all important parts of the game granted... Player individuality does make a definite difference, in-fact that's what makes playing against friends so enjoyable. Plus, it's so nice to be able to put a Gerrard shot into the corner, without it rising towards the end of the shot every time. And the edit mode is great, although frankly I hate the work involved - it's just nice to be able to fix anything that isn't quite right. (Why on earth do they let you have a huge amount of faces and only 40 club badges though, why do they insist on these ridiculous restrictions? You give us so many face slots that aren't really needed to enjoy the game IMO, yet when it comes to badge slots - to make sure every team has their real badge - you only let us import 40, what the fuck are these guys on?)

Some good points, Chris. I agree for the most part. Personally I'm not interested in Become a Legend (or Be a Pro on Fifa) and I rarely play online due to the soul-destroying nature of your average football gamer. Lag is a secondary issue for me.

It's the player individuality and the unpredictability of every match that is what made me fall in love with PES all those years back, and PES2009 still delivers in these departments, although not to the level of the older games. Fifa 09 is near enough dead to me now as I can't distinguish one player from another and every match feels too similar and formulaic. The shooting, and the weightless ball physics in general, have well and truly pissed me off, but the ball physics in PES 2009 still has a nice weight to it.

I'm not too disheartened that PES2010 is using the same game engine because I think last years game could have been so much better with better animations, AI and just the next-gen sheen in general.

 

[Chris Davies]

(An essay follows)

Spoiler

I've had a good time with this for a week or two, it's made a nice change, but it's not fun for me any more. There's just been too many gameplay "issues" piling up for me to continue with it, and a number of friends I've been playing it with see all the things that I've been complaining about.

GETTING STUCK PART 1: The one that really put me off yesterday was this exquisite cross from a mate that I wanted the striker - Torres - to chest down towards the goal and hit. He chested it the total opposite way to the direction I was pressing - at which point I held up my gamepad and shouted "LOOK AT THE DIRECTION I'M PRESSING" to prove my point - and he carried on jogging with it for TWO SECONDS straight into a conveniently placed CPU player. It's like Torres was hypnotised and the defender had a magnet. If you're telling me that makes a good football game then I'm sorry but I'll play the worse one every time. It's not like there's an excuse - I wasn't pressing sprint, I never pressed that direction to begin with etc...

GETTING STUCK PART 2: So many times I'd use the press button to go over to a striker and stab-tackle the ball. Literally 9 out of 10 times - and tell me if I'm doing this wrong - the player would get to within two feet of the CPU player and then stop dead. As a friend kept shouting, "the invisible man is holding me back again". You press slide tackle to try get the guy to do SOMETHING, and either the protective border is large enough for the CPU player to dance away to the side, or you win the ball and get a yellow card for your troubles.

REFEREES: We did three tackles in-particular where we all instinctively said "great tackle" as you would in real life, then the referee comes over and gives a yellow card (in the last case a red card). Perfectly timed, scooping the ball away, and you concede a free kick. The referees are garbage. Don't get me wrong, I want them to make mistakes, but not 50% of the time you win the ball.

PASSES: We played a few games where we counted the amount of passes we made that went to the wrong man. Some of them literally went to players 90 degrees away from the direction we were pushing on the sticks, and at the end of each game around 25% of the passes were going to someone we didn't want to pass the ball to. That's one in four, which makes it impossible to get a good passing move going for long. People who are used to the game probably won't suffer from this but for those who are used to it, TRUST ME, you have to think "what will the AI think I want to do if I push that direction", rather than just pushing the direction like you would in FIFA. It's horrible.

GOALS: We scored a few good goals which is always nice to see and without doubt this is the area of the game I want to see FIFA emulate the most, a variety of goals scored with power. But that feeling I get when I used to score a goal in PES has gone completely - you all know the feeling I mean, and if you still get that then I'm genuinely happy for you, because the game does have a few things in its favour. But it all felt so flat to me because there's just so little work involved in scoring (I'm not talking about the passing move etc. but the shot itself, the single kick of a ball that puts the ball into the net). You don't have to do anything, you aim you shoot and it goes in (or the CPU decides to put it wide). You don't have control, and after having control in FIFA, after countless attempts put wide or onto the post and knowing that they were all my fault - as well as the goals being my hard work - it just feels so flat scoring in PES. Instead of getting that "YEAHHH" feeling, I genuinely just felt like "oh look what the CPU did" (and it doesn't help that the goalkeepers are so poor - it's nice that they're not superhuman but sometimes they're inches away from the ball and they don't even stick a finger out).

Which brings me on to my final gripe...

PLAYER INDIVIDUALITY: I've been sucked into this for a long time but by the end of the night I realised that the majority of goals I'd scored had been the same goal, a shot from the edge of the area into the top/bottom corner. Not with Gerrard (we mostly played as Liverpool), and in-fact he only scored one of them, but with practically every player in the team. Lucas, Mascherano and Hyppia (!) scored the most goals between them and I don't see them on the scoresheet too often in real life.

I think a lot of what people say about player individuality is in their heads to be honest, I really do. I'm not saying that it isn't better overall in PES - it is, there is a difference between the likes of Mascherano/Tevez and players without that strength - but I've read stories of certain players doing certain passes and movements, being great captains because of the way they get players moving, scoring one type of goal that they score in real life etc... But at the end of the day, a player is based on the stats. It's not like they program each individual player to be fundamentally different from anybody else. I get the impression from some people that the Pro Evo discs are made out of fairy dust and ground-up footballs.

In FIFA there is variation as well, not as much (especially in the lower leagues where every player is virtually the same, granted), but it's not so drastically different that it's unplayable. I do most cutting passes with good midfielders, I score most goals with good strikers. I'll say it again, PES still does individuality better I admit, but the only places I really notice it are in the stronger players and their ability to win the ball (unless you're playing against the CPU in which case you can't break through that invisible barrier but you can chase after the ball for longer).

A few of the "traits" they've put into the stats system make a difference and FIFA does have traits, but they're hidden. Drogba has a diving one for instance that can win you a few more free-kicks and make a game stop/start. I think it could just use a few more, and then the data editors could try assigning them to a lot more people.

In the first six games that we played on PES last night, we played a CL against the CPU. We won all the home games 2-0 and lost all but one of the away games 2-0 (we lost the other 4-0). I certainly didn't feel any variation in the opposition except for the fact that one or two players were more clinical finishers than others - which you do get the feeling of in FIFA IMO - and more passes went astray in the away games giving us no chance of getting back into the game, which was fucking infuriating.

PES v FIFA: I think at the end of the day, PES and FIFA are two totally different games, and this is a very good thing. PES has a lot of automatic feeling about it and gives the players boundaries, but it does that in order to add realism - the idea being that one player can do things the other player can't based on the stats. If you want to do a simple pass, some players are incapable because of their stats, and whereas some people will say that's the ultimate in realism because it reflects their skill in real life, it just totally and utterly pisses me off because I just think, "why don't I just let the CPU play the game for me if it's going to keep taking over - or better yet I could watch a real game of football".

FIFA on the other hand doesn't take as much notice of the stats but if you score a goal it's all you, and that feeling of satisfaction is unbeatable for me. But the flip-side is that the stats don't make enough of an impact for the players to replicate their real-life counterparts as well as they could. But do you know what, I don't even want them to fiddle with it too much, because I want PES and FIFA to be different games. I don't want to play FIFA and find that I can't pass the ball like I could before because a player's stats are crippling him.

This time with the game has given me a whole new appreciation of FIFA 09 and just how good it really is - it's not perfect but the freedom of movement that you have and the lack of scripting blows PES out of the water as far as I'm concerned, and you have no idea how much hard work has gone into it from the programmers, which I feel like I can appreciate ten times more after playing PES for a while. Plus, everything I'm hearing about the gameplay of FIFA 10 is everything that I wanted to see improved, so I'm optimistic.

But of course there's things both games do better than the other, and I do hope that the dribbling and the shooting in FIFA 10 is more intuitive/powerful, as it is in PES. And I'll keep PES purely to finish my Be A Legend career, which is more fulfilling than Be A Pro once you get past the training stages (it's a lot more satisfying to be brought on as a substitute and score, than start every game and never be dropped).

[/Essay]

 

[MokBull]

A great dissertation, CD, and I agree with everything you said.

 

[Jimmy G-Force]

(An essay follows)

Spoiler

I've had a good time with this for a week or two, it's made a nice change, but it's not fun for me any more. There's just been too many gameplay "issues" piling up for me to continue with it, and a number of friends I've been playing it with see all the things that I've been complaining about.

GETTING STUCK PART 1: The one that really put me off yesterday was this exquisite cross from a mate that I wanted the striker - Torres - to chest down towards the goal and hit. He chested it the total opposite way to the direction I was pressing - at which point I held up my gamepad and shouted "LOOK AT THE DIRECTION I'M PRESSING" to prove my point - and he carried on jogging with it for TWO SECONDS straight into a conveniently placed CPU player. It's like Torres was hypnotised and the defender had a magnet. If you're telling me that makes a good football game then I'm sorry but I'll play the worse one every time. It's not like there's an excuse - I wasn't pressing sprint, I never pressed that direction to begin with etc...

GETTING STUCK PART 2: So many times I'd use the press button to go over to a striker and stab-tackle the ball. Literally 9 out of 10 times - and tell me if I'm doing this wrong - the player would get to within two feet of the CPU player and then stop dead. As a friend kept shouting, "the invisible man is holding me back again". You press slide tackle to try get the guy to do SOMETHING, and either the protective border is large enough for the CPU player to dance away to the side, or you win the ball and get a yellow card for your troubles.

REFEREES: We did three tackles in-particular where we all instinctively said "great tackle" as you would in real life, then the referee comes over and gives a yellow card (in the last case a red card). Perfectly timed, scooping the ball away, and you concede a free kick. The referees are garbage. Don't get me wrong, I want them to make mistakes, but not 50% of the time you win the ball.

PASSES: We played a few games where we counted the amount of passes we made that went to the wrong man. Some of them literally went to players 90 degrees away from the direction we were pushing on the sticks, and at the end of each game around 25% of the passes were going to someone we didn't want to pass the ball to. That's one in four, which makes it impossible to get a good passing move going for long. People who are used to the game probably won't suffer from this but for those who are used to it, TRUST ME, you have to think "what will the AI think I want to do if I push that direction", rather than just pushing the direction like you would in FIFA. It's horrible.

GOALS: We scored a few good goals which is always nice to see and without doubt this is the area of the game I want to see FIFA emulate the most, a variety of goals scored with power. But that feeling I get when I used to score a goal in PES has gone completely - you all know the feeling I mean, and if you still get that then I'm genuinely happy for you, because the game does have a few things in its favour. But it all felt so flat to me because there's just so little work involved in scoring (I'm not talking about the passing move etc. but the shot itself, the single kick of a ball that puts the ball into the net). You don't have to do anything, you aim you shoot and it goes in (or the CPU decides to put it wide). You don't have control, and after having control in FIFA, after countless attempts put wide or onto the post and knowing that they were all my fault - as well as the goals being my hard work - it just feels so flat scoring in PES. Instead of getting that "YEAHHH" feeling, I genuinely just felt like "oh look what the CPU did" (and it doesn't help that the goalkeepers are so poor - it's nice that they're not superhuman but sometimes they're inches away from the ball and they don't even stick a finger out).

Which brings me on to my final gripe...

PLAYER INDIVIDUALITY: I've been sucked into this for a long time but by the end of the night I realised that the majority of goals I'd scored had been the same goal, a shot from the edge of the area into the top/bottom corner. Not with Gerrard (we mostly played as Liverpool), and in-fact he only scored one of them, but with practically every player in the team. Lucas, Mascherano and Hyppia (!) scored the most goals between them and I don't see them on the scoresheet too often in real life.

I think a lot of what people say about player individuality is in their heads to be honest, I really do. I'm not saying that it isn't better overall in PES - it is, there is a difference between the likes of Mascherano/Tevez and players without that strength - but I've read stories of certain players doing certain passes and movements, being great captains because of the way they get players moving, scoring one type of goal that they score in real life etc... But at the end of the day, a player is based on the stats. It's not like they program each individual player to be fundamentally different from anybody else. I get the impression from some people that the Pro Evo discs are made out of fairy dust and ground-up footballs.

In FIFA there is variation as well, not as much (especially in the lower leagues where every player is virtually the same, granted), but it's not so drastically different that it's unplayable. I do most cutting passes with good midfielders, I score most goals with good strikers. I'll say it again, PES still does individuality better I admit, but the only places I really notice it are in the stronger players and their ability to win the ball (unless you're playing against the CPU in which case you can't break through that invisible barrier but you can chase after the ball for longer).

A few of the "traits" they've put into the stats system make a difference and FIFA does have traits, but they're hidden. Drogba has a diving one for instance that can win you a few more free-kicks and make a game stop/start. I think it could just use a few more, and then the data editors could try assigning them to a lot more people.

In the first six games that we played on PES last night, we played a CL against the CPU. We won all the home games 2-0 and lost all but one of the away games 2-0 (we lost the other 4-0). I certainly didn't feel any variation in the opposition except for the fact that one or two players were more clinical finishers than others - which you do get the feeling of in FIFA IMO - and more passes went astray in the away games giving us no chance of getting back into the game, which was fucking infuriating.

PES v FIFA: I think at the end of the day, PES and FIFA are two totally different games, and this is a very good thing. PES has a lot of automatic feeling about it and gives the players boundaries, but it does that in order to add realism - the idea being that one player can do things the other player can't based on the stats. If you want to do a simple pass, some players are incapable because of their stats, and whereas some people will say that's the ultimate in realism because it reflects their skill in real life, it just totally and utterly pisses me off because I just think, "why don't I just let the CPU play the game for me if it's going to keep taking over - or better yet I could watch a real game of football".

FIFA on the other hand doesn't take as much notice of the stats but if you score a goal it's all you, and that feeling of satisfaction is unbeatable for me. But the flip-side is that the stats don't make enough of an impact for the players to replicate their real-life counterparts as well as they could. But do you know what, I don't even want them to fiddle with it too much, because I want PES and FIFA to be different games. I don't want to play FIFA and find that I can't pass the ball like I could before because a player's stats are crippling him.

This time with the game has given me a whole new appreciation of FIFA 09 and just how good it really is - it's not perfect but the freedom of movement that you have and the lack of scripting blows PES out of the water as far as I'm concerned, and you have no idea how much hard work has gone into it from the programmers, which I feel like I can appreciate ten times more after playing PES for a while. Plus, everything I'm hearing about the gameplay of FIFA 10 is everything that I wanted to see improved, so I'm optimistic.

But of course there's things both games do better than the other, and I do hope that the dribbling and the shooting in FIFA 10 is more intuitive/powerful, as it is in PES. And I'll keep PES purely to finish my Be A Legend career, which is more fulfilling than Be A Pro once you get past the training stages (it's a lot more satisfying to be brought on as a substitute and score, than start every game and never be dropped).

[/Essay]

Very well written, I certainly dont agree with most of it but I still respect and appreciate your opinion.

One thing that isnt 'In my head' is the individualism and stats. Play 9 seasons on BAL and 7 seasons on ML in 15 min games on the hardest level and you will see every player is massively different.

The passing needs to be learnt, you do get the odd, 'Where the fuck did that pass go ?????????' , but for me thet are very few and far between Chris, 2-3 maybe per game. It pisses me off but I've learnt to live with it.

 

[Jamezinho]

PES v FIFA: I think at the end of the day, PES and FIFA are two totally different games, and this is a very good thing. PES has a lot of automatic feeling about it and gives the players boundaries, but it does that in order to add realism - the idea being that one player can do things the other player can't based on the stats. If you want to do a simple pass, some players are incapable because of their stats, and whereas some people will say that's the ultimate in realism because it reflects their skill in real life, it just totally and utterly pisses me off because I just think, "why don't I just let the CPU play the game for me if it's going to keep taking over - or better yet I could watch a real game of football".

FIFA on the other hand doesn't take as much notice of the stats but if you score a goal it's all you, and that feeling of satisfaction is unbeatable for me. But the flip-side is that the stats don't make enough of an impact for the players to replicate their real-life counterparts as well as they could. But do you know what, I don't even want them to fiddle with it too much, because I want PES and FIFA to be different games. I don't want to play FIFA and find that I can't pass the ball like I could before because a player's stats are crippling him.

This time with the game has given me a whole new appreciation of FIFA 09 and just how good it really is - it's not perfect but the freedom of movement that you have and the lack of scripting blows PES out of the water as far as I'm concerned, and you have no idea how much hard work has gone into it from the programmers, which I feel like I can appreciate ten times more after playing PES for a while. Plus, everything I'm hearing about the gameplay of FIFA 10 is everything that I wanted to see improved, so I'm optimistic.

But of course there's things both games do better than the other, and I do hope that the dribbling and the shooting in FIFA 10 is more intuitive/powerful, as it is in PES. And I'll keep PES purely to finish my Be A Legend career, which is more fulfilling than Be A Pro once you get past the training stages (it's a lot more satisfying to be brought on as a substitute and score, than start every game and never be dropped).

See I'm completely the other way around, Chris. My time with PES2009 recently has made me appreciate the PES series even more and it has highlighted for me how far Fifa still has to go. As an all-round representation of football Fifa 09 is the better game. The graphics are almost TV-like from afar, the animations are top class, and the gameplay is very smooth and fluid. It is a very good football game and I applaud EA for what they have done.

But.............for replicating the feeling, emotion, excitement, unpredictability, the out-of-your-seat moments, PES is still the king. Admittedly PES2009 is a very average game. The animations are poor and the gameplay is too stiff, and the keepers are awful, but I am enjoying it much more than I ever did playing Fifa 09. The player individuality makes a massive difference for me and is why I always loved PES. I'm not interested in knowing that my every precise input on the joypad created a goal, but more that the quality of the players I selected, the formation I play them in and the tactics I use made the difference.

You're right about them being two different games - two football philosophies - and it's down to personal preference, but I much prefer the PES approach and I hope they never change it.

 

[Chris Davies]

Jimmy - I respect your opinion as well which I've said in the past, so I appreciate that. About the passes, I think what you say at the end is true of both games (something pisses you off but you learn to live with it). I suppose it's quite sad that the game I enjoy the most I enjoy because it pisses me off the least!

Anything like that where you don't seem to have control is the ultimate frustration for me and it's something I can't just ignore, probably after so many years of Master League scripts kicking in and robbing me of victory, buying the next version of the game (three in a year including the Japanese releases) and praying there was less interference and more control. If I hadn't played PES for as long as I have then it probably wouldn't annoy me as much, but it does and that makes the game unbearable for me. I can't just watch opportunities wasted because the game decides to pass to the wrong guy and say "oh well next time", it infuriates me.

But of course there's plenty of similar things in FIFA - shots always rising for one - that I can learn to live with (but others can't), as you said. I genuinely don't think one game is rubbish and the other is great, I think they're just completely different in several areas. As one of my friends said, it's a shame they can't work together.

Jamezinho - I know exactly what you mean about the unpredictability. When you score a goal that's impossible to score in FIFA, i.e. from an angle that's always saved by the FIFA goalkeepers or via a massive deflection, that's great. But for me the feeling of excitement you talk about isn't there long enough because soon enough there's huge frustration at the players not "listening" to the buttons I'm pressing. That frustration overrides everything but it's one of those things, it either gets to you or it doesn't - and if it doesn't then the game will be immensely enjoyable I'm sure, hence why I'm glad they are two different games.

 

[Professor Nutmeg]

A few thoughts on the PS2 version.

I like:

- the individuality of players
- feeling a bond with my ML squad, as i toil through seasons (because of point 1)
- looking for [understated] signings (because of point 1)
- when moves play out realistically (resulting in goals or near misses)
- the licensed kits/leagues


I dislike:

- the physics (collisions, stumbling for far too long, etc)
- my players running on the spot or slowing, to allow the computer players to reach the ball first, despite me being closer (often happens on through balls)
- poor AI (defenders running away, supporting attackers stopping or turning back)
- goalkeepers parrying to oppostion strikers all too often
- retired players respawning
- unrealistic transfers in ML
- the ML structure
- overrated players (stats)
- the current penalty kick system
- bugs (substitution, incorrect cut scenes and commentary)
- UPPER CASE LETTERS
- classic players/teams
- PES shop (having to unlock ML structure)
- lack of teams (club & international) and leagues
- lack of generic stadiums
- the commentary
- animal heads

 

[gerd]

Plus:
Each player has his own style (if FIFA would have that, i would not buy PES again).
BAL mode (and Chris, knowing your posts for a couple of years: you are easily bored, playing those training matches were fun for me...but that's very subjective).
ML (cfr. Professor Nutmeg's post, the immersion is bigger than in FIFA but less than in Football Manager - i don't care about the irrealistic structure - FIFA isn't as realistic as FM and i prefer something more utopian than something like the real thing but not quite like it: the transfers in FIFA are very irrealistic for example).


Minus:
Cheating AI
Overall gameplay (much better in the PSP version, but perhaps too difficult for me)
The animations (running is awfull)
and dozens of other litle things...

Basically: the fact that Konami refuses to listen to the fans...


PS: @ Chris Davies: play BAL in the PSP version...you don't have to play training matches...to me it's less fun...but maybe you would like it.