Too hard to please?

Scutch

Scutch

Futsal Master
31 October 2006
Cumbria, UK
Tottenham Hotspur
Imagine if this was the year that Sensible World of Soccer had just been released for the first time...

Gameplay wise, it's a master class. But the graphics are seriously poor. Sometimes I don't know who I'm controlling.
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Disappointed that Higuain still has last seasons hair. I don't think I'll bother with the game.
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Pro Passing my arse. Every kick goes to a team mate, without fail. Rubbish.
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Only 1 style of nets?! FFS Sensible, sort it out!!
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Didn't really matter back then, did it? Trivial little things weren't an issue as much as they are in todays world.

Remember when Super Soccer arrived on the SNES? I thought it was superb, as did quite a few folk. Yeah, the ball stuck to the players feet like glue, the slide tackles were all the same animation and you could score the same goal over and over, but it was enjoyable because it was arguably the best football game available at the time - certainly graphically. Mode 7 heaven.

Striker. Another top notch footy game on the Amiga and later the SNES, again. The comments in this day and age?

I absolutely love the indoor feature and the editing, but bloody hell how fucking quick are the players?! I hope this is sorted out because it's ridiculous.
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Just noticed in a recent match that the ball momentarily left my strikers foot. WTF?! Where is the superglue control?? Elite/Rage, please patch now!!! MAJOR BUG!!
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It just shows how far we've come, that even when we have bloody good football games on our laps, we're now wanting perfection. I guess that's just the progression in quality of games, that we can now demand things are fixed; that passing weight is improved, that the ball striking the net looks like real life down the park or that Torres' hair is this season's style.

So, so many complaints about so, so many details - some big, some pretty small. But we can be a very tough crowd, at times. I'm certainly in that camp, too, don't get me wrong.

But it's only a game, innit.

:COOL:
 
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Yeah I agree.

I haven't played a football game like when I played sensi. But then again I was in my mid teens then and now I am 30, so I think that makes a difference :PP

I am getting Fifa on Friday and if it plays well, then I will stick with it. I will probably give PES a go in a few months just to see what it is like.

But I really can't be arsed learning all new controls etc for PES again. I am used to Fifa and if it has improved that will do for me :))

Also I don't need to mess around with option files (which can be a pain for the 360) and patches. I can just turn it on and Arsenal are bloody Arsenal.

Anyway I do think we are too spoilt, but I still understand why people moan as especially with Fifa you feel they can do something special, but can't because they need to make lots of money and please the majority of their audience...which is understandable but very frustrating.
 
Erevos said:
great post... now we are meassuring why the passes is litle soft or hard... jesus
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Well, with the engine having been whipped into pretty good shape since FIFA09, I don't think it is surprising that we want to see it more closely mimic real football, and since the details that you seem to think are unimportant, like pass speeds, are the very details that change from game to game, then it doesn't seem unexpected that those details are focused on.

Pass speeds for example, they seem to be generally too slow if you compare to real life (which is always my measuring stick, since this game seems to strive for realism). Now you could argue that you judt need to put some more power into them with the Pro Passing powerbar, but if you always ned to use the upper registers of the gauge, it will take more time to power up each pass, making you generally more vulnerable to opponents pressuring the ball carrier. Passing being too slow generally will also give the opposition more time to respond to the direction of the pass and mark the recipient, while he is still waiting for the pass to arrive. So it can mean the difference between having 3 meters or 1.5 meters distance to an opponent as the player controls the pass. Seems pretty relevant, don't you think? Same with anything else like player movement speed, average time it takes for them to control a pass, etc etc. It's all a balance, and it they get 1 thing wrong, 10 other things will be awkward/unrealistic/boring/etc.

Most of us will live with this game for a year, so it something is off now, we will have to wait a whole year until the next iteration (or hope they can patch it).
 
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I posted this in the PES section:

DagsJT said:
I think it's because PES5 was such a big leap and revolutionary for it's time and that cemented itself in peoples minds. That's not going to happen with another football game now (maybe when they go 3D or something?) so it's a bit pointless saying it's not as good as PES5 IMO.

Different times in gaming, it was much easier to make an impression on people then, nowadays people expect too much from games.
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Trance_Allstar said:
Well, with the engine having been whipped into pretty good shape since FIFA09, I don't think it is surprising that we want to see it more closely mimic real football, and since the details that you seem to think are unimportant, like pass speeds, are the very details that change from game to game, then it doesn't seem unexpected that those details are focused on.

Pass speeds for example, they seem to be generally too slow if you compare to real life (which is always my measuring stick, since this game seems to strive for realism). Now you could argue that you judt need to put some more power into them with the Pro Passing powerbar, but if you always ned to use the upper registers of the gauge, it will take more time to power up each pass, making you generally more vulnerable to opponents pressuring the ball carrier. Passing being too slow generally will also give the opposition more time to respond to the direction of the pass and mark the recipient, while he is still waiting for the pass to arrive. So it can mean the difference between having 3 meters or 1.5 meters distance to an opponent as the player controls the pass. Seems pretty relevant, don't you think? Same with anything else like player movement speed, average time it takes for them to control a pass, etc etc. It's all a balance, and it they get 1 thing wrong, 10 other things will be awkward/unrealistic/boring/etc.

Most of us will live with this game for a year, so it something is off now, we will have to wait a whole year until the next iteration (or hope they can patch it).
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sure the technology has made things that we didnt dreamed when sensible soccer was out, but that doesnt mean that the engine can achive every little thing, i think that passing speed on pc version is fine but thats my personal opinion, i've read about people asking unbelievable things and that is really annoying especialy when FIFA 11 has made some bige steps this year..
 
Personally I wouldn't have it any other way than it is now - the fact that it's mostly smaller stuff we complain about means that the bigger stuff is at least satisfactory for most. Would you rather we be complaining about graphics, the inability to direct passes ourselves vs the AI doing everything for us, the lack of proper ball physics - remember the days when the ball only went in straight lines and did not actually make contact with players on the screen? How about when you could only move in 4 directions? Or when game consoles didn't have the ability to save your game? Or when you had the option of only a few teams to play with and all players acted exactly the same?

The fact that we are now focused on specific issues that once were never imaginable is in itself a compliment to the game(s). Just because we focus on the smaller issues at times does not mean we don't see the bigger picture; just because I choose to criticize small parts of the game does not mean that I don't value and enjoy the sum of its parts.

Yes I can be nitpicky in one person's eyes when I choose to focus on a failure to accurately represent player momentum but I roll my eyes every time a thread gets created to argue over Chicharito's OVR. Yes we can be overly critical but it's only human nature to want more. At times that can be a negative but looking at the big picture, it's humanity's inability to ever be fully satisfied that drives us further to improve.

I absolutely loved playing centipede back in the day on my Atari but just imagine where we'd all be if consumers at the time collectively said "You know what, that's good enough!"
 
propose things for FIFA 12/13 etc that in FIFA 11 you dont like is one thing and complaining all day and winning is another.. (im not talking about you)
 
I blame International Superstar Soccer on SNES. It was the first time I felt I'm using my brain to win. It was an amazing feeling. I remember watching my friends play and monitoring and analyzing their style so I could implement the perfect tactics to win; They worked, and I ran around the house like a lunatic. Then I look at their faces, so red filled with anger. Quality.
 
Lami said:
I blame International Superstar Soccer on SNES. It was the first time I felt I'm using my brain to win. It was an amazing feeling. I remember watching my friends play and monitoring and analyzing their style so I could implement the perfect tactics to win; They worked, and I ran around the house like a lunatic. Then I look at their faces, so red filled with anger. Quality.
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I loved that game. Oh man.

As for how it is now, I think it's great. I was just making the point that back in the day, we really weren't fussed at all as long as the game was fun to play.

Memories.
 
Personally my complaining is in direct relation to the hype being put out. If they want to sell me perfection I'm sure as hell gonna complain when it isn't! I'm very positive about PES, even if it's an inferior product to FIFA. It's related to how Konami have gone about their business, same goes for FIFA. I was supportive till FIFA10, since then all they seem to do is hype their game and not forfill what they have been saying.

Also, I need to be very critical in my profession so I am with most other aspects of my life aswell. Fortunately gaming, and EA, give the platform to give the possiblity to adress my complaints.

Also the more complaints is in direct relation to how good the product is, which is a backhanded compliment to EA really. PES' is enjoying a more positive reception (atleast on here), but it's still an inferior product. We expect less so we complain less, FIFA is so close to being what we want, yet remains agonisingly unable to get there.
 
It doesn't help that NBA2K is releasing a basketball sim head's dream game. FIFA and PES are so far behind in realistic attacking and defending behaviour compared to that game (especially FIFA imo). So I don't think people are asking for too much, obviously you will always have mongs, but a lot of sim heads ask for things that could be implemented/tweaked.

Littman, head of NBA Elite (used to be for the NHL game) said that their NBA game is trying to be more "fun" and not as much of a hardcore sim as NBA2K and he said that doing that seems to be a winning formula by looking at NHL and FIFA. So FIFA CAN do a lot more in terms of realism, but they won't, and I think that is why many complain.
 
I think soccer is got to be one of the hardest AI to have to program. Basketball only has 5 players a side and has more opportunity for reset soccer is more flee flowing
 
I find this game(FIFA 11)ps3 a bit hard like playing in water or worst roller skates :LOL: I `m skint and can live with that ,but after 4 games my arm is sore n fingers are stiff.
 
sneaky77 said:
I think soccer is got to be one of the hardest AI to have to program. Basketball only has 5 players a side and has more opportunity for reset soccer is more flee flowing
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Might be true, but they're still not really trying. There are no trained patterns that they're trying to play out. Junior football might only be "keep your positions and then just play on", but modern football is much deeper than that. Just like most sports they train a lot on different patterns/movement, it's not just random runs.

That crappy football game that was released some time ago actually had AI that has been thought to try to play in recorded patterns. It was pretty badly done though. FIFA 11 have this in very small amounts for trick stick simulation for the CPU. The developers have recorded a lot of different tricks for situations, and the AI has learnt to use it. Hopefully next year they will take it one step further and record different types of attacking patterns. It's not like it is playing a recorded sequence though, it's just that the AI knows about different patterns and tries to replicate it as good as it can.

edit: The crappy game was "This Is Football".
 
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I think it's partly because people have been encouraged to believe that simulation is possible in sports games, these days. Back in 1992 we didn't think that, we just thought it was cool to have a green pitch and some coloured sprites that could kick some white pixels in the direction we told them to.

Games nowadays are so advanced that gamers start to expect almost-perfection. There was nothing EA could do that would make FIFA 11 perfect this year in the eyes of some. Perhaps they could have gone further than they have, but if the requests of the more demanding gamers had been realised, they would only have found something else to pick apart next.

It's like the new F1 game. Bugs aside, the sim-heads would still be pulling apart why it isn't the perfect recreation of really driving an F1 car anyway. It's not enough that it's the first F1 game for years and probably the best one there's been, if it isn't a perfect sim. Except Codies were never going to go that route, and neither were EA with FIFA 11.

There's now often a disparity between what some enthusiastic sports gamers consider a sim, and what dev companies consider a sim (and/or have the time/ability/intent to develop). That expectation didn't exist 15 years ago.
 
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I think it also depends on match time settings.

I mean if you play 10 minute halfs or longer, it's just not gonna work. Football games cant replicate real football, theres far too many variables, theres far too much change of pacing. Thats the human element of our bodies talking on the pitch, the mentality and the conditions.

You cant factor that into a football game, which is why i play short halfs and my matches are condensed. It makes for a more enjoyable experience.

But think about it - what if Fifa never got their game in shape those few years ago? We wouldnt have one decent game on next gen. Comparing football to sports like golf and basketball is a nonsense, theres less variables to contend with for starters which makes these games easier to portray. Same for Madden, American Football is a very stop/start controlled game, which is why EA can nail the finer details of it.

Personally i dont think you will start to see real 'realism' in football games until the next gen, i dont think theres enough power to replicate a football match like what you see at the ground or on tv.
 
nerf said:
I think it's partly because people have been encouraged to believe that simulation is possible in sports games, these days. Back in 1992 we didn't think that, we just thought it was cool to have a green pitch and some coloured sprites that could kick some white pixels in the direction we told them to.

Games nowadays are so advanced that gamers start to expect almost-perfection. There was nothing EA could do that would make FIFA 11 perfect this year in the eyes of some. Perhaps they could have gone further than they have, but if the requests of the more demanding gamers had been realised, they would only have found something else to pick apart next.

It's like the new F1 game. Bugs aside, the sim-heads would still be pulling apart why it isn't the perfect recreation of really driving an F1 car anyway. It's not enough that it's the first F1 game for years and probably the best one there's been, if it isn't a perfect sim. Except Codies were never going to go that route, and neither were EA with FIFA 11.

There's now often a disparity between what some enthusiastic sports gamers consider a sim, and what dev companies consider a sim (and/or have the time/ability/intent to develop). That expectation didn't exist 15 years ago.
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Top post Nerf.
 
nerf said:
There's now often a disparity between what some enthusiastic sports gamers consider a sim, and what dev companies consider a sim (and/or have the time/ability/intent to develop). That expectation didn't exist 15 years ago.
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What I know is that Fifa08 did entertain me a lot more than Fifa11. And PES5 was much more fun than any other pes and, though there are always some niggles here and there, it's quite obvious that the discontent with games have been growing up at the same rate the videogame industry has grown up.

Like movies, the bucketloads of money they make is making the games worse in terms of fun and entertainment.

I have no doubt EA could have done a much better game than Fifa11, but they decided to release a worse game because they know it will sell more. It's how marketing works. The masses want simple crap and there's always a big difference in oppinion between the mass and the critics.

We are critics for good and for bad, and games are dumber for good and for bad. It's possible to make great games that are not for the masses. Look at Demon's souls. Or Braid. It's only that you will NEVER sell millions of copies doing them. To sell millions, you must end up with a 2-button control system.
 
Sensible Soccer had a 1-button control system and was simple, but that wouldn't sell millions today.

Discontent grows because:
- We are fed more marketing hype than ever, raising our hopes and therefore the potential for disappointment.
- We pay 4x the amount we used to for our games and hardware, so feel entitled to more.
- We have these little online communities in which to air our thoughts and feed each other's negativity. Twenty years ago I could maybe post a letter to one of the few gaming magazines once a month. Not that I would.
- We believe that the technology is now capable of so much, causing us to over-look the practicality of the matter: Next-gen titles are expensive to produce, and business sense dictates that potential return must be maximised to lessen risk.

I also have the speculative thought that dev companies perhaps devote a smaller percentage of their dev-cycle toward tuning gameplay than they've ever done before. Games development is so time-consuming and complex now, that generating all of the content and then bug-testing it all in time for that financially-critical release date leaves progressively less and less time and freedom for actually 'polishing' and honing the gameplay than ever before (especially when there is more and more to balance). So perhaps we end up with games that lean toward technical achievements and complexity over actual refined, well-balanced fun.

As consumers of sport simulations, we are more demanding than ever and remain unwilling to come to terms with the possibility that these titles are now produced by and for the dollar rather than by and for the enthusiast, as they arguably used to be.

It's also human nature to chase something new... as we become accustomed to more, we want even more, and it escalates to the point where we are now.

Anyway, shouldn't we all be wearing virtual reality helmets these days? :P
 
The quote abnout Higuain's hair style is a litle bit typical for some spoiled gamers...who cares about Higuain's hair style?
I used to play Subbuteo when i was a kid. There were no video games.
Of course we are all freaks in here.
95% of the people who buy FIFA never come to forums concerning video games...they are glad to have "their" team in the game and dream of becoming the next Messi. They don't care about team mates' runs, muddy pitches and hiar styles...they are in search of innocent escapism. Having the impression that they are superstars for 15 minutes. There is nothing wrong with that.

The average video gamer does not know the foot size of Ibrahimovic and what tactic Wenger used in that famous match in 2001...they don' t care. So in a sense we are hard to please.

We tend to forget that the hype that is build up buy the marketing divisions of Konami, EA and others is not meant for us...it is meant for the middle of the road gamer.

Yes, we are hard to please.
 
Agree partly, however what will really make us critical is the "use" of members of the community. Gamechangers is looking more and more like a marketing trick to entice the hardcore. That's what pisses me off and fuels my negativity. It's also done very well, as we have already seen quite a few Gamechangers who are supposed to be part of the critical mass on here, and EA forum yet have given 95% reviews with very little negativity. They are either using EA to try and get more trips and preview plays, or they feel they owe EA something for the trips and previewplays.

If you want to make and market a game for the mass, fine, no problem. Just don't come into a community and use the members as a marketing tool to then piss all over them (to an extent) and even moreso the others who weren't fortunate to get the perks.
 
Lami said:
I blame International Superstar Soccer on SNES. It was the first time I felt I'm using my brain to win. It was an amazing feeling. I remember watching my friends play and monitoring and analyzing their style so I could implement the perfect tactics to win; They worked, and I ran around the house like a lunatic. Then I look at their faces, so red filled with anger. Quality.
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Same here. I remember going to my best friends house at least once a week to play ISS Deluxe on the SNES. Normally four of us would get together to play mini leagues. That game was such great fun and we were hyper-competitive, constantly coming up with new formations to beat each other. It was the PES of the mid-nineties. The commentary was so bad it was good. "DOWN THE WING!, NO FOUL!!!" It was the game that put SWOS in it's place as more of an arcade experience, even though it's also one of my favourite games of all time.

For me a football game doesn't have to be 100% simulation, as quite often that is a boring experience when it comes to video games. It just has to be fun, addictive, engaging, yet with a decent semblance of realism. As long the game gets the fundamentals of football right then everything else is secondary in my opinion.
 
Don't forget online. Imo devs are concentrating more on the online aspect than making a good story mode/offline mode. These days we have the tech, and the money, but sadly mostly wasted on online turning a game into cash-cow mode only.

Jamezinho said:
Same here. I remember going to my best friends house at least once a week to play ISS Deluxe on the SNES. Normally four of us would get together to play mini leagues. That game was such great fun and we were hyper-competitive, constantly coming up with new formations to beat each other. It was the PES of the mid-nineties. The commentary was so bad it was good. "DOWN THE WING!, NO FOUL!!!" It was the game that put SWOS in it's place as more of an arcade experience, even though it's also one of my favourite games of all time.

For me a football game doesn't have to be 100% simulation, as quite often that is a boring experience when it comes to video games. It just has to be fun, addictive, engaging, yet with a decent semblance of realism. As long the game gets the fundamentals of football right then everything else is secondary in my opinion.
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Lovely memories mate. I remember spending ages fiddling with the kit colors as well trying to replicate my home town team.
 
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gerd said:
I used to play Subbuteo when i was a kid. There were no video games.
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I also played Subbuteo then! Had lots of teams, the cup, even a light for my pitch. I had the pitch glued to a wood and kept behind the door of my bedroom. I used to play with my father and uncle, we had all results, even scorers (you could paint them numbers!) and so in a notebook.

Subbuteo was by far a more tactical and deep game than most footy games, so you could say we were used to complexity from scratch.
 
Lami said:
Don't forget online. Imo devs are concentrating more on the online aspect than making a good story mode/offline mode. These days we have the tech, and the money, but sadly mostly wasted on online turning a game into cash-cow mode only.
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Exactly. Remove online matches from the equation and you'd have more resources spent toward improving the AI by default. But why bother to do that when so many will say "f it, playing against the CPU sucks so I'll just play online matches."

In a sense it's genius - EA don't have to spend as much on developing the AI because they can just supplant human competition for CPU competition with online game modes. So they spend less while still selling millions, which equals an improved bottom line.

So even though Lami and I will say they're "wasting" money on online game modes, in truth EA are getting a greater return on their investment.
 
But for the online play! They can add more depth and challenge to the games so you could play anyone and have a dynamic challenging fun game which simulates football to a good standard. They haven't done this! But they have the tech to do so :( That's what pisses me off!

I mean it's fine we all know EA are focusing all on online but why does every game resort into being a pass and pressure spamming match?
 
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