The key components to make an enjoyable football game

[pes4lyfe]

I have decided that realism is not good for football games. Excitement is good. Realism in some aspects of the gameplay is good but remember a 90minute football match is often 80mins filler 10mins highlights. What a footy video game needs to be is like a highlights show. Especially for the casual gamer who plays 10minute games. End to end stuff with many chances. This is what made PES great back in the day.

I experimented a bunch of old footy games up til now. ANd what stood out to me that made games exciting was.

1. Ability to create chances somewhat easily but with variety and not always in same manner, though not always score, preferablly keeper punches out or goes for corner rather than catch
2. Time it takes to create chances i.e. how often and how quick you can get up pitch via dribbling or passing
3. Various methods that work in attacking build up either fast dribblers, pinpoint long balls, through balls or short fast 1-2s etc.
4. The number of chances you can create per game (many chances but great gk is more fun than low chances and poor gks)
5. The ability to score various kind off goals, from various angles and distances
6. The goals scored per game. Obviosuly high scoring can be more exciting but also well created goals and amazing shots etc..sometimes a touch of OTT is good in this regard.
7. Being able to beat players. It causes exictement when you beat opponents by dribbling.
8. Ability to pass and open space. Pass ball around and gaps appear or long ball swithc wings and player is lots of space on that side of pitch..this is exciting.

 

[Primepeace]

what pes game are we talking about

 

[Chimps-with-quiffs]

I have decided that realism is not good for football games. Excitement is good. Realism in some aspects of the gameplay is good but remember a 90minute football match is often 80mins filler 10mins highlights. What a footy video game needs to be is like a highlights show. Especially for the casual gamer who plays 10minute games. End to end stuff with many chances. This is what made PES great back in the day.

I experimented a bunch of old footy games up til now. ANd what stood out to me that made games exciting was.

1. Ability to create chances somewhat easily but with variety and not always in same manner, though not always score, preferablly keeper punches out or goes for corner rather than catch
2. Time it takes to create chances i.e. how often and how quick you can get up pitch via dribbling or passing
3. Various methods that work in attacking build up either fast dribblers, pinpoint long balls, through balls or short fast 1-2s etc.
4. The number of chances you can create per game (many chances but great gk is more fun than low chances and poor gks)
5. The ability to score various kind off goals, from various angles and distances
6. The goals scored per game. Obviosuly high scoring can be more exciting but also well created goals and amazing shots etc..sometimes a touch of OTT is good in this regard.
7. Being able to beat players. It causes exictement when you beat opponents by dribbling.
8. Ability to pass and open space. Pass ball around and gaps appear or long ball swithc wings and player is lots of space on that side of pitch..this is exciting.

You can have realism and excitement. I have spent months each year trying to perfect the two by editing PES.

You need challanging games where scoring goals isn't easy and defending is challanging, but when you use your head and the players skills that you control, moments of brilliance can be created.

I do understand what you mean though. Some people prefer players flying at one another and able to skip around challanges and score great goals and to be able to do this out of the box at the first point of pick up and play.

If your on the PS3 try my latest file in my sig. You do not have to install the full file, just the Edit file and play Barca v Madrid on +1 speed on the Estadio de Luz or Allianz during the day on Superstar. This is close to some older games where you have games similar to what you are getting at.

If you then switch back to 0 or -1 you will get game play that is more realistic.

 

[Flaw3d Genius]

I have decided that realism is not good for football games. Excitement is good. Realism in some aspects of the gameplay is good but remember a 90minute football match is often 80mins filler 10mins highlights. What a footy video game needs to be is like a highlights show. Especially for the casual gamer who plays 10minute games. End to end stuff with many chances. This is what made PES great back in the day.

I experimented a bunch of old footy games up til now. ANd what stood out to me that made games exciting was.

1. Ability to create chances somewhat easily but with variety and not always in same manner, though not always score, preferablly keeper punches out or goes for corner rather than catch
2. Time it takes to create chances i.e. how often and how quick you can get up pitch via dribbling or passing
3. Various methods that work in attacking build up either fast dribblers, pinpoint long balls, through balls or short fast 1-2s etc.
4. The number of chances you can create per game (many chances but great gk is more fun than low chances and poor gks)
5. The ability to score various kind off goals, from various angles and distances
6. The goals scored per game. Obviosuly high scoring can be more exciting but also well created goals and amazing shots etc..sometimes a touch of OTT is good in this regard.
7. Being able to beat players. It causes exictement when you beat opponents by dribbling.
8. Ability to pass and open space. Pass ball around and gaps appear or long ball swithc wings and player is lots of space on that side of pitch..this is exciting.

Good post.

You only need to look at PES on PS1 & PS2, Half sim Half arcade and all 6 games were very good to incredible.

Both PES & Fifa now try and go 100% Sim and both games fail miserably and both games lack the fun factor that video games should be about, They need to get the fun back into football games and that means going back to how it used to be especially PES as since they have went all serious on us they have not made a game as good as PES on the older consoles.

 

[juliovodoo]

Yesterday watching barça - madrid on tv I realize that this match is PES and not FIFA. FIFA has incredible graphics but simulation is on PES even on this PES 2012. Just change turf in PES 2012 for the apporpiate one and some touches on gameplay and you will see.

 

[Jamezinho]

I broadly agree with the OP.

PES, even during it's glory days, has never been a true simulation. Not that I would want it to be. It had the perfect mix of simulation, depth, and arcade excitement. In order for a full 90 minute match to be condensed into a 10 minute time frame, the gameplay has to be end-to-end, pacey, action-packed and full of incident. Like it or not, the ten minute time frame is the standard for a football game, and it has to be built around this. 100% simulation is simply not possible, and the result would be horrendously dull. This is a video game after all, which we play for fun, and football games have always been quick, accessible, pick-up-and-play experiences. This will never change.

PES has always been a 'simcade' style game if you like. It had the 'easy to learn, hard to master' philosophy nailed down. I could invite my non-PES playing mates around, give them a quick run-down of the controls, and after a couple of games they were playing decent football. To learn the advanced techniques, however, took weeks of play. All this with a fairly simple control system and no manual settings to worry about.

I think the likes of us - the hardcore fans who frequent forums - in our pursuit of a football simulation, sometimes lose sight of what made the game great in the first place.

 

[shoemaker]

Yesterday watching barça - madrid on tv I realize that this match is PES and not FIFA. FIFA has incredible graphics but simulation is on PES even on this PES 2012. Just change turf in PES 2012 for the apporpiate one and some touches on gameplay and you will see.

No way. Absolutely no way!. What I watched last night was no where near looking anythiing like PES! I really dont know what game you are playin son but it aint the same as everyone else.

 

[Northzzz]

PES just needs to stop being so scripted in order to be enjoyable. Yeah i know the script is always going to be there but the fact you're so aware of it is what breaks the immersion. It needs to be far less obvious. It feels like i'm being pulled this way and that most of the time. I feel so out of control at times it's just borderline silly. Like the game is acting itself out with minimal input from the user. It's a game. Control is the one thing you need to enjoy it. Then you should apply limitations to stop it being too overly free flowing. Something Fifa needs to do.

I don't even know how they would begin this though. The way the engine functions is the very route of the problem at current in my opinion. I honestly don't feel like PES has much depth at current, too much like it's just acting something out and there's nothing you can do about your own style to change the way the game plays out. The 'easy to learn, hard to master' ideology is the best one. I don't know about everybody else but it feels like i could play this game everyday and not really master anything (except knowing how to put crosses into the box or move my attacking player at the perfect moment when taking a corner. Two exploits i have mastered but feel so so cheap.)

Obviously this ideology is all prior to engaging realistic/simcade type gameplay into the game.

 

[juliovodoo]

No way. Absolutely no way!. What I watched last night was no where near looking anythiing like PES! I really dont know what game you are playin son but it aint the same as everyone else.

So is it similar to FIFA 12? I mean, in your opinion (and I´m not defending PES at all, I´m just a bit confused because I bought FIFA 12 for the first time in years and now I´m confused)what football game is more similar to real life football? I really want to know your and other opinions.

 

[pes4lyfe]

The 'easy to learn, hard to master' ideology is the best one. I don't know about everybody else but it feels like i could play this game everyday and not really master anything (except knowing how to put crosses into the box or move my attacking player at the perfect moment when taking a corner. Two exploits i have mastered but feel so so cheap.)

Obviously this ideology is all prior to engaging realistic/simcade type gameplay into the game.

on the contrary id say fifa 12 is a game that hard to learn/hard to master.

What I mean is you cant just pick up and play fifa 12. well not against cpu at any decent level u just wont make chances or even score.

However with weeks to learn all the skill moves and what not you can be a good fifa player.

However overall the game just doesnt feel right to me its rigid, slow, slow passes, weak passes, lacks excitment, lacks inetria and acceleration feel...i cant pinpoint it. It seems to me fifa 12 has in it the engine and potential for the best ever football game but something in the current games makes it rubbish.

I think with the fifa 12 base engine it could be modified in certain asepcts to make an ultimate footy game?

 

[Flaw3d Genius]

on the contrary id say fifa 12 is a game that hard to learn/hard to master.

What I mean is you cant just pick up and play fifa 12. well not against cpu at any decent level u just wont make chances or even score.

However with weeks to learn all the skill moves and what not you can be a good fifa player.

However overall the game just doesnt feel right to me its rigid, slow, slow passes, weak passes, lacks excitment, lacks inetria and acceleration feel...i cant pinpoint it. It seems to me fifa 12 has in it the engine and potential for the best ever football game but something in the current games makes it rubbish.

I think with the fifa 12 base engine it could be modified in certain asepcts to make an ultimate footy game?

Fifa 12 with similar mechanics/gameplay to Fifa world cup would be a very good game, I totally agree with you about "slow, slow passes, weak passes, lacks excitment, lacks inetria and acceleration feel" They have listened to a select few who are pushing for a hardcore sim and it shows with Fifa 12 in that the game lacks any excitement.

As for the PES plays like the Barca v Madrid game last night, the only thing PES gets right is Barca's Ping Pong passing which PES 2012 does very well and that Alves goal was PES all over!!!!!

 

[pes4lyfe]

Fifa 12 with similar mechanics/gameplay to Fifa world cup would be a very good game, I totally agree with you about "slow, slow passes, weak passes, lacks excitment, lacks inetria and acceleration feel" They have listened to a select few who are pushing for a hardcore sim and it shows with Fifa 12 in that the game lacks any excitement.

As for the PES plays like the Barca v Madrid game last night, the only thing PES gets right is Barca's Ping Pong passing which PES 2012 does very well and that Alves goal was PES all over!!!!!

yeh true but why did I send pes 2012 back to shop? I cant even remember I just couldnt get into it?

As for fifa world cup, yeh thats a good game but again I cant pinpoint diff between that and fifa 12

however overall all the latest fifa games have a problem for me with creating attacking chacnes against cpu (pro and above lvls). For me the marking is to tight, players stick far to much to positions and often game is cluttered in midfeild.

In Pes or at least old pes if you had ball on right wing and decided to switch it to left wing youd have loadsa space on that side off pitch.

On fifa the players dont change position so even if you have ball on left wing the right wing is still as tight and pitch strecthed as wide. It doesnt open it up often. Shapes/formations seem so rigid the whole 90mins....

 

[juliovodoo]

FIFA 12 has "sliders" to modify the gameplay, that´s the good point for all those slow passes, slow movements... The bad thing is that is hard (at least to me) to find the right balance for the sliders for the right gameplay experience.

 

[pes4lyfe]

FIFA 12 has "sliders" to modify the gameplay, that´s the good point for all those slow passes, slow movements... The bad thing is that is hard (at least to me) to find the right balance for the sliders for the right gameplay experience.

I know this. and I have made the game much more excitign for my tastes personally.

Still its not the complete game. But out the tin IMO FIFA 12 is actually a real dull slow game.

With my edits and sliders I have made the game far more enjoyable for me and what I want out a football game but still its not perfect and not as fun or addicting as old Pes was.

 

[juliovodoo]

It´s not, I agree, that´s why I´m confused now. I´m at the moment playing PES 2012 and not FIFA 12 (which I decided to buy this year) and trying to satisfy my hunger of real football in a football game.

 

[romagnoli]

FIFA 12 has "sliders" to modify the gameplay, that´s the good point for all those slow passes, slow movements... The bad thing is that is hard (at least to me) to find the right balance for the sliders for the right gameplay experience.

That's because of the way FIFA represents passing inaccuracy at the moment. It combines some amount of directional inaccuracy with a larger amount of weighting & vertical inaccuracy. I hope we'll see them separated for FIFA 13, maybe even the Euro 2012 game...


This is also an example of the problem with the whole 'simulation vs arcade' debate. Both terms are often blamed for iffy application rather than the principle itself. These slow passes are a result of FIFA's addition of Pro Passing, intended as a big step towards turning the game into a simulation. A move away from FIFA 10 and World Cup 2010's identikit high speed ping pong passing.

The impact on the game was clear. It slowed the game down a lot, and you could see some passers were clearly better than others. But, as a representation of the sport - a very important aspect of the sport that is ESSENTIAL to football games, and was a key part of what made the PS1 and 2 Pro Evo titles so thrilling - it wasn't even close. It wasn't balanced at all. You couldn't overhit the pass, you couldn't really add extra weight to a pass if you needed the pass to be firm, you wouldn't get directional accuracy at all (or at least it was negligible compared to what we'd expected from PES and several other football pretenders in the past, old FIFAs included). FIFA 11 tried to use one tiny aspect of passing to account for ALL types of passing error in their simulation. People are told it's a move towards simulation, and they can see that it is intended to create a deeper, less arcadey experience. But premium PES, through far simpler maths on a previous gen machine, managed to create a far more varied and balanced passing engine. FIFA 11 was a real grind, lacking the dynamic zip or ability to suddenly kick a move into life. PS2 PES on the other hand was able to keep passes urgent and crisp whilst not being so predictable that you always knew what was going to happen or didn't need a midfield.


There are a lot of other interweaving issues which account for why FIFA was limited to only slowing passes down, many of which are due to trying to overdo the simulation in one area and attach it to particularly arcadey shortcomings. The most apparent example is that there isn't a proper first touch system so even if a pass is overhit, it won't cannon off a Zigic but stick to a Berbatov, and if a pass is marginally too far in front or behind a player it doesn't cause them to take dodgy overstretched touches or really break stride in the way EA'd need for something more balanced.


The end result with FIFA 11 was that the game wasn't really more of a simulation, even with the addition of ideas that were intended to have that effect. It was harder, yes. It was less fun, absolutely. The problem is that a lot of people tend to see that as being what a sim is. Harder, less fun.
But what it did to the passing system was not create something that flowed more like football. It just flowed differently. To me, FIFA 12 is improved but still very far off what I'd want in terms of flow and room for creativity. It's a lot more literal in its attempt to simulate, and I know a lot of people are happy with that - particularly as the end result is still a good game.

PES has its own problems of course, most of which we've all been through this year and in previous years. This year's shooting and keepers are a prime example, and the dribbling vs defending is at a point where a lot of players online just run at players rather than pass - y'know, play football.


Creating something that is more of a simulation than we have in both titles now does not need things to be harder for us to use, or less engaging and fun for people to play. What PES did so well back in the day was it got the balance right in so many areas. Even if the ball physics wasn't 100% authentic or the number of buttons you had to use was less than you see in today's titles or whatever individual aspects of today's games are more complicated/realistic, the harmony between the individual parts was such that the resultant gameplay was closer to the sport itself than anything we've seen since.

You might call the individual parts arcadey by comparison, but the whole was a hell of a simulation of the essence of football.

 

[pes4lyfe]

. FIFA 11 was a real grind, lacking the dynamic zip or ability to suddenly kick a move into life..

This is what i was trying to say about fifa. You never ever get that sense of

'wow what a move'

''oh I can see a potnetial exiting attack possible''

Everything lacks speed and excitement. THere is a real lack of ability to do fast zipping attacking moves or a sense of player acceleration.

You never feel the game is ''alive''. It works in many aspects, many things are technically well applied. But the game just lacks some rawness and real life or spark to it. Not often you have a move or attack that gets you off your seat. Unlike old Pes. Sometimes Id play my mate and youd pull off such a great move your heartbat would go up and youd jump and shout across the room.

I rarely get that from fifa.

Its a techincally well developed game with a good base engine and player models but just plays out quite dull.

 

[Northzzz]

on the contrary id say fifa 12 is a game that hard to learn/hard to master.

What I mean is you cant just pick up and play fifa 12. well not against cpu at any decent level u just wont make chances or even score.

However with weeks to learn all the skill moves and what not you can be a good fifa player.

However overall the game just doesnt feel right to me its rigid, slow, slow passes, weak passes, lacks excitment, lacks inetria and acceleration feel...i cant pinpoint it. It seems to me fifa 12 has in it the engine and potential for the best ever football game but something in the current games makes it rubbish.

I think with the fifa 12 base engine it could be modified in certain asepcts to make an ultimate footy game?

I was talking about PES when i said that.

I think Fifa could be the 'ultimate footy game' as well but EA seems to be reluctant on toning certain things about the game which make it too streamlined.

I mean without getting into it too much. First touch, momentum and the lack of inertia are the things that spring out as those things which need sorting out. Really they are currently the only things which stop me from enjoying Fifa. I simply cannot get over how unnecessarily fast the game feels when you're dribbling with the ball. You say rigid and slow. I think it's the complete opposite especially in regards to turning circles with the ball.

Though i do agree with you about the acceleration point too. Fifa really does feel like playing at one speed. It doesn't up the speed, so perhaps i understand what you mean, but i'd argue the current speed of players is what should be the 'top speed' so to speak. The level you accelerate up to. I cannot imagine players in FIFA being faster than they are when dribbling without it looking a bit silly. PES 2008-esque. The sliders are there but they don't help with that constant one speed feel the game has.

 

[juliovodoo]

That´s very interesting, all of your opinions, really. So, do you all mean that, despite all positive reviews in favour of FIFA 12, PES 2012 is still closer to real footbal simulation (not very close , I know) than FIFA 12? And this may mean that PES 2012 is better than FIFA 12?
Sorry for my confusion but it´s there. FIFA 12 seems good and PES 2012 not so good just because I have the idea that it´s the same game as PES 2011 while many people ensure that this is a great PES very different from the past PES 2012.

I really would like to play a different football game this year, so that was the main reason to buy FIFA 12 but... now I´m not so sure about my choice.

 

[pes4lyfe]

I was talking about PES when i said that.

I think Fifa could be the 'ultimate footy game' as well but EA seems to be reluctant on toning certain things about the game which make it too streamlined.

I mean without getting into it too much. First touch, momentum and the lack of inertia are the things that spring out as those things which need sorting out. Really they are currently the only things which stop me from enjoying Fifa. I simply cannot get over how unnecessarily fast the game feels when you're dribbling with the ball. You say rigid and slow. I think it's the complete opposite especially in regards to turning circles with the ball.

Though i do agree with you about the acceleration point too. Fifa really does feel like playing at one speed. It doesn't up the speed, so perhaps i understand what you mean, but i'd argue the current speed of players is what should be the 'top speed' so to speak. The level you accelerate up to. I cannot imagine players in FIFA being faster than they are when dribbling without it looking a bit silly. PES 2008-esque. The sliders are there but they don't help with that constant one speed feel the game has.

well overall speed depends on what you enjoy. I think the passes seem to go real slow. Player movement is somewhat slow. BUt there is no real feel of acceleration.

You cant just have a fast player and nip ahead 5 yrds to beat slow defender or have a Roberto Carlos bomb down the wing type thing going on.

 

[Flaw3d Genius]

well overall speed depends on what you enjoy. I think the passes seem to go real slow. Player movement is somewhat slow. BUt there is no real feel of acceleration.

You cant just have a fast player and nip ahead 5 yrds to beat slow defender or have a Roberto Carlos bomb down the wing type thing going on.

Passing is extremely slow, overall Fifa 12 is a much slower game than Fifa 11.

Are you using the Right stick to quick burst past players? Works a treat.

 

[pes4lyfe]

Passing is extremely slow, overall Fifa 12 is a much slower game than Fifa 11.

Are you using the Right stick to quick burst past players? Works a treat.

thats true that works but often the player runs wrong way or hts ball to far or kicks it out of touch or whatever. It doesnt always work so well or in a crowded area. Only really useful in some scanrios.

BTW dunno bout u guys but I just have minimal desire to play football games these days.

FIFA 11 done me ok last year but Im getting bored with fifa 12 now tbh.

I aint even going near PES.

I try to replay PEs3 and PEs5 and PES6 but I just feel they are to old and I cant be bothered tbh.

euro2012 could be good hopefully well it will at least give me 1-2 months fun

 

[Flaw3d Genius]

thats true that works but often the player runs wrong way or hts ball to far or kicks it out of touch or whatever. It doesnt always work so well or in a crowded area. Only really useful in some scanrios.

BTW dunno bout u guys but I just have minimal desire to play football games these days.

FIFA 11 done me ok last year but Im getting bored with fifa 12 now tbh.

I aint even going near PES.

I try to replay PEs3 and PEs5 and PES6 but I just feel they are to old and I cant be bothered tbh.

euro2012 could be good hopefully well it will at least give me 1-2 months fun

Euro 2012 is the only hope weve got although Fifa street has been getting raved about.

 

[lancers]

Passing is extremely slow, overall Fifa 12 is a much slower game than Fifa 11.

Are you using the Right stick to quick burst past players? Works a treat.

11 was too fast. I can just about get the speed and acceleration right. Not perfect but playable. The game plays fast enough with Speed at 53 ACC at 52 and Pass Speed set at 57-58. Normal. Might be too quick for some. I really can get a decent game together combining the Speed (Normal or Slow) and fussing with the speed acceleration and pass speed settings. It's not perfect but it does play very well against the computer even better human v human.

 

[pes4lyfe]

11 was too fast. I can just about get the speed and acceleration right. Not perfect but playable. The game plays fast enough with Speed at 53 ACC at 52 and Pass Speed set at 57-58. Normal. Might be too quick for some. I really can get a decent game together combining the Speed (Normal or Slow) and fussing with the speed acceleration and pass speed settings. It's not perfect but it does play very well against the computer even better human v human.

however sadly online is deafult sliders.

 

[lancers]

however sadly online is deafult sliders.

Cannot play online for that reason.

 

[pes4lyfe]

tbf though i slated some aspects of fifa 12 its the best footy game about today.

In fact with sliders edited it can be great sometimes. head to head even on default online I find is ok to. Ive had soem great games.

main prob with fifa 12 is cpu ai ad tbh prob this new tactical defending crap.

However there is something really odd with the passing which I cannot explain fully. Its just not right. Often passes seem to drag along ground but pressing pass longer does not make pass go quicker to the player but hit the ball to a plaeyr further ahead but still at this same slow speed.

 

[pes4lyfe]

. These slow passes are a result of FIFA's addition of Pro Passing, intended as a big step towards turning the game into a simulation. A move away from FIFA 10 and World Cup 2010's identikit high speed ping pong passing.

The impact on the game was clear. It slowed the game down a lot, and you could see some passers were clearly better than others. But, as a representation of the sport - a very important aspect of the sport that is ESSENTIAL to football games, and was a key part of what made the PS1 and 2 Pro Evo titles so thrilling - it wasn't even close. It wasn't balanced at all. You couldn't overhit the pass, you couldn't really add extra weight to a pass if you needed the pass to be firm, you wouldn't get directional accuracy at all (or at least it was negligible compared to what we'd expected from PES and several other football pretenders in the past, old FIFAs included). .

yep thats it

 

[shoemaker]

So is it similar to FIFA 12? I mean, in your opinion (and I´m not defending PES at all, I´m just a bit confused because I bought FIFA 12 for the first time in years and now I´m confused)what football game is more similar to real life football? I really want to know your and other opinions.

I personally think FIFA 12 is closer to real life football and I know im going to get shot down for this.

Ball Physics in FIFA are a lot better for 1 thing like.
Player movements and animations in general are a lot better and players feel like they have weight and substance to them.
Compared to PES in my opinion FIFA feels more open and does a lot of the things you ask it to do. PES still does what it wants to do the CPU takes control of everything and decides im passin it to someone stood miles away when im not.

Shooting in FIFA is better to due to the physics and shots look more lifelike. In PES they are way too tame and dont go where you aim them to on the stick and look way too unconvincing and have done for years like. The golden days of PES5 and 6 is still where its at. FIFA aint perfect by any means but plays a better Next Gen experience compared to Pro Evo which is miles off the pace.

 

[lancers]

tbf though i slated some aspects of fifa 12 its the best footy game about today.

In fact with sliders edited it can be great sometimes. head to head even on default online I find is ok to. Ive had soem great games.

main prob with fifa 12 is cpu ai ad tbh prob this new tactical defending crap.

However there is something really odd with the passing which I cannot explain fully. Its just not right. Often passes seem to drag along ground but pressing pass longer does not make pass go quicker to the player but hit the ball to a plaeyr further ahead but still at this same slow speed.

Are you playing full manual? You can try pushing the pass speed slider up to 60 like Stringer has. At that speed you better be really accurate unless you have the speed and acceleration sliders up from the default too.