The England Topic

[denirobob]

The reason Walcott can't get a game is because he's at Arsenal and we've been on an amazing run which Wenger didn't want to disturb.

Bent plays for Charlton, even Marcus Bent gets a game there, nuff said!!!

Hi mate,

Haven't there been any situations though where a few 10-15 minute run outs would of given the young lad some vital experience ?

That is what i find troubling from Erikksons perspective. e.g. As you say Wenger didn't want to jeopardise a good run, but if he was really is that shit hot where's then problem?

You've had a real fixture pile up of late, and with all due respect if he's not up to be giving a chance whilst chasing 4th place, is he ready for a game where there's even more at stake?

db

 

[PLF]

Ok mate I appreciate your post.
You have many things I agree with in there.

But i'm sorry to in certain parts, there are some irrelevant arguments (albeit good ones).
I'm not being rude,- far from it.

I'll explain why I think that in some order...

Let me first of all say, I appreciate your post too! 8)

It must have taken you quite a while to write out your thoughts and I never walk away from an intelligent discussion which you and I were having either so I admire the effort you put and appreciate it the same way!

Firstly I never said players should or should not go based on being international class.
But I did say that as a player Bent is not international class.
I believe Walcott is DESPITE not playing (which as you are aware does not mean nothing to me in this case alone!!

I don't care what Saudi Arabia, Argentina do. It's not them I care about it's irrelevant.

Well mate from the post I quoted, that's exactly what one reading would've thought. Because it clearly said - Darren Bent is not Int'l class so he shouldn't go. Simple as that. Implying only Int'l class people should go or at least that's what one like me would interpret like.

I also see you saw the Saudia Arabia, Argentina and Croatia bit as perhaps a bit "Irrelevant" on my part and yes while they're not generally related to England squad we were talking about, I did have a point in there using those 3 teams which I'm sure you got. It was about how each team picks best it can based on players they have available, for some it may be 4 Int'l quality strikers for some one or two or in some cases's none!

It is because Walcott is THAT good and Bent is THAT average in my opinion.
Simple as that.
And as Kevano said, that is my opinion.
The fact that Sven has picked Bent in )squads and has not taken him at all; and has even taken Andy Johnson (who has been in no squads) and a 17 year old with NO game, must tell you how much Sven doesn't rate Bent.
Me too!

Well I don't think Darren Bent is avg at all. He's not Marcus Bent! But I guess I rate him somewhat and you don't at all and this is where we can agree to disagree

Regarding what Sven did, it won't tell me whether you're right or I'm right what it does is like you said it shows you two are both on the same boat regarding Darren Bent in form that neither of you rate him. Fair enough.. even though if I don't agree and is another reason why I don't rate Sven!

The next bit is the bit that biugged me mate.
You obviously have no idea of my football opinions (Which I suppose is not your fault )

Yet you have wrote the longest piece elaborating on the word 'star' under the assumption that I mean this as the flashy, skillful type of player??!!

I can see why this bugged you. It's my mistake for assuming wrong.

Who decided that 'star' meant flashy player and skillful?

The dumbass "Attacking-minded" media and casual fan like I said who has very limited understanding of "Real football". Not me and you or people like us clearly.

You are talking to the man who's favourite football player of the last 15 years is Demetrio Albertini!!
Ask me who I think the star of spain is and I will say Xavi. Easily.

Bravo! :applause:

Everything you said about the type of player you labelled as a 'star' I 100% agree with.

It is just that opinions of players does not apply to me like you have made it sound.. in fact the 100% opposite

I see what you mean. To be honest though when I was saying those things, I didn't mean they apply directly to you! I meant that's unfortunately how "Most" of the football world sees it (Reason being most are just casual fans) but I was clearly wrong to think you might be one of them and now I think we've cleared it up just as much as how "Stats and end of season figures" don't mean that much to me!

One thing you did say was who is more likely to be the 'star'.
More likely to make things happen based on their attributes?

Walcott easily. Because we are talking about attributes. Not what they have done or how many goals they have scored.
JUST The player's ability alone.
In my opinion Walcott is better than Bent.

I said Walcott is more likely to be a "Star" than Darren Bent if it mean getting past players with extreme speed, dribbling and things like that. If a star is one who is supposed to get the goals (depends how you want to define it), I say based on CURRENT ability, Darren Bent is more likely to do it and so is better choice for me.

Again though you say Walcott is better than Bent and while I don't usually get involved with comments like these because it's hard to really compare two player and say who is better (since in some attributes, undoubted one will be better than other and in some other attributes the other way around) and I especially don't get involved when it's two "Different-type" of players, this time I just had to mate. Cuz I strongly disagree with this! But then again this is what these forums are for so this is where we'll have to again agree to disagree as we each have our own opinion and that's cool.

The people who have worked with Walcott will teall you just how good he is. Toure has come out and said how good he is.
No doubt Henry will say also.
People know how good a pleyer is. You don't ALWAYS have to see them play at the highest level. (This case with him and Bent especially).

Alright now I'm not sure how useful these arguments are. Surely I can also say the people who've worked with Darren Bent at Ipswich and later on Charlton and anyone else who's worked with him will come out and undoubtedly tell you how good he is. Doesn't say much. It's just the opinions of they're friends and current team-mates, Ex-coaches or people who they usually have good relationship with.

Which even then like in the article "DeniroBob" posted, you saw some people like Southampton coach "Bassett" saying Theo is talented and whatever but would make sense if he was 6th or 7th choice striker not 4th! in front of likes of Defoe and Darren Bent!

A simple comparison would be Pique and Christian Dailly of West Ham.

Now Pique has played a few games for Man Utd so please don't be pedantic and say that matters over Walcott's 0 games.
Because if Walcott played in the CL final and 2 warm up games, does that mean Walcott's inclusion is more justified that playing 0 games?

Is it more justified then? Yes definitely!!! The more competitive high level game this kid or anybody gets and IMPRESSES on, the more their inclusion to thigns like national team is justified! Does it actually mean he's any better in terms of ability than he is if he doesn't get those games ?? No it doesn't!

My point being that everybody and his dog knows that Gerard Pique is better than Christian Dailly.
We don't have to see Pique play games in the premier league to know this.

(I know I have chosen a worse player in Dailly than Bent, but i'm sure you understand my point)
My point being that by what people are saying (yourself included) that someone is not qualified to say how one player is better than the other because they have not played a game.
This rule then qualifies on EVERY player who is compared by not playin a game, no matter how good or bad.

Is someone now gonna turn round and say Pique is not better than Christian Dailly just to invalidate my point??

I won't invalidate nor confirm your point as to "Pique is defeinitely better than Christian Dailly" since I haven't seen the kid play yet unfortunately! Yes Dailly is aging, sloppier and not as good as he used to be but I won't say Pique is better until I see those games he played myself to prove it.

And of course this rule applies to everyone, it's not a Theo Walcott rule! :lol: mate

It's simply for anybody who has never proven themselves at higher level being compared and even said is better than somebody who HAS been proven like Darren Bent!

I'm glad you are with me that player's goals and figures do not always mean more compared to their actual playing abilities.
In this case you can understand me not taking to much notice of Bent's goals.
I have already mentioned that I am not basing my argument on Walcott getting goals in the World Cup... more on the overall things he brings to games. He has the ability to make something out of nothing, sacare defenders and change a game with a run, pass and assist...and maybe a goal.
I have no confidence in Bent doing this.
Nor does Sven.

Well we already know you and Sven are together on this one as clearly stated previosly

Regarding you saying he has ability to make something out of nothing. YES that's due to his explosive speed and ability to take on players... then you follow it by saying he can make a run (which he can) a pass and assist and shot (which we don't know how good those abilities are and if anything probably Darren Bent is just as good in those things if not better especially getting goals). So can he make something out of nothing that Bent probably can't? Yes.. Is he more likely to miss a good chance that needs good finishing or aerial battle than Bent? Yeah probably yes again!

Bent has shown us some of his good finishing this year and also he's got plenty to his aerial game too despite the obvious size and physical advantage over Theo as well.

On the subject of World Class, I think that is the most overused term in football.
Oh, Wes Brown is a world class defender, Maniche is a world class midfielder etc etc.
I reserve World Class for the best.
Off the top of my head, I would say there are approximately 20 or 30 world class players in the World.

Exactly. That's what "World-class" real definition should be! The BEST and that means only a limited number of the toppest players in each position.

And yeah it is way too often used. The people who say Maniche and Wes Brown are WORLD CLASS is just one good example

But i cannot say Lampard is not in the top 30 players in the world, that would be crazy!!
I was focusing more on him being a footballer overall.

Well that's why I disagreed. We just agreed that "World class" means the top let's say 30 players in each position. So if you can't say Lampard is not in top 30 that means he's world-class whether he's a great footballer or not! 8)

Lampard scores plenty of goals from midfield and for that job he is World class.
So many games he goes missing and then scores a cracker and gets the headlines. (I am not here and nowhere in my posts am I implying that you make false judgements on such things mate )
Lampard has done hardly anything since the new year. Only in recent weeks has he found a fair bit of form.

Yes he's done that this season a bit. Last season though he was world-class in every single way and played awesome almost week in week out with only a few avg performances.

As you can see from my post I am not one of those people that just reads bits of posts and choose to argue!!
You are similar to me in the respect you like to be thorough (I'm sure our girls are pleased :lol: )
And that you don't want people to make a misunderstood judgement on what you are saying.

I respect that totally dude.

:thumbup:

Just one other thing regarding being possibly patronising:

I may have misread slightly the following phrase:

I also have more things to say like how I completely disagree when you say "Theo is BETTER than Darren Bent" and if we clearly examine the two players and analyze them in every single area (Many different attributes), you'll see what I mean and it'll become quite clear to you but I won't do that now as that'll be another long post on its own and no time or place for it here right now.

This part in particular mate:
Are you saying that I will see what you mean and it will become clear where you are coming from.
Or are you saying that after hearing more from you that it will become clear that I am wrong?

You can see how that may look.
(didn't want to comment without clearing it up with you first mate )

You might have slightly mis-interpreted that my friend but even so it was MY fault for choosing the wrong words that can be slightly mis-interpreted so I take all the blame and yes I can see how that might have looked and glad you brought it up and we cleared it! 8)

Yes of course what I meant was I'm confident if I analyze with you in another time where we're both not tired and have time :lol: both players in depth in many different attributes, you'll see what I mean and where I'm coming from (not that it'll show you, you're wrong ) and why Bent is more of an all-rounded (Full package) striker and has a way wider variety of skills which all will be useful at one part of match or another compared to some extremely fast and good dribbler young kid like some 17 year old kid who is more of "raw talent" and not developed or far from "Finished-product" yet.

In my opinion on current ability Walcott is better than Bent.

I'm not the type of guy who says:
Walcott is better than Bent. FACT.
(I fucking hate that man!! :lol

Good I hate that too :lol: :mrgreen:

And if the Walcott is better than Bent statement is your opinion, sure I'm fine with it dude. I myself happen to very much disagree and hopefully when I get the time and discuss with you, you'll see where I might be coming from but for now I guess we just have to agree to disagree

Oh yeah one more thing dude.

(Who wants to bet with me that Darren Bent will be playing for someone like Wolves in 3 years??)

I'm up for it. What are we betting on? 8)

 

[steevio_uk]

Mate, are you my twin?:lmao:

Quality post mate.\\:o/

Just ONE little thing I will disagree with to be petty and keep a silly argument going....

Bent and Walcott are of very similar strength and build imo.

(Who was that who just called me petty??!! :lol: )

Half the time people's problems with each other's posts is misinterpretation.
It would have been easier to just resort to abuse and start slating my opinions.

Dude, you got my respect.

 

[PLF]

Yeah abuse isn't my way dude!

I only abuse when I'm abused or disrespected but you can see for example clearly in this aspect although I was with Gedtillo and Alucard and against your opinions regarding Theo's inclusion and Bent's exclusion, I simply didn't want to and never would abuse an intelligent man like yourself just because of difference of opinion! Because you just like me and everyone else has every right to believe in what they do

Are we gonna bet though regarding what you said? :p

And I think in terms of physique, there is a difference dude. A lot of sites do report Darren as 180cm and 73kg but undoubtedly he looks well filled in (Not sure if it's right term :/ ) and somewhat STRONG yet with good speed and balance still something I can't say for Theo (about being strong physically I mean).

How much does he weight just out of curiosity?

 

[Alucard]

Totally agree. Stevio my friend, I sincerly apologise for making a insult to you yesterday, kinda got ahead of myself there. Anyway im with you guys, i dont like insults just cuz of difference of opinion, its childish and rude. Again i apologise for mocking you.

 

[PLF]

Stevo's cool so I'm sure he'll understand

@STevo, since this shit got quite long I suppose I'll leave my reasons as to why "I definitely think the "Current" Darren Bent is better than "Current" Walcott in more ways than one actually" for another time huh? or maybe I'll even pm that one so we don't clutter up the thread I don't know but for now I think this time I'm right in assuming we both need a bit of a break from this discussion?!

see ya man.

 

[steevio_uk]

No problem at all fellas. None.

Erm, i'm not sure about the weight and height PLF.

I'd say Walcott is probably considerably lighter than Bent, but both are of similar height, build and the way they use their body.

Though to be honest, you are probably right that Bent does in fact use his body a lot more than Walcott.

The Bet....hmmmm.

Was a bit tongue in cheek :lol:

I was referring to my opinion that in 3 years time, Walcott is more likely to be player of the year than Bent.
And that in my opinion, in 3 years Bent is more likely to be at somewhere like Wolves than Walcott.

But FORGET that!!! We had enough already!!

To have a wager....

Hmmm... ok, how about I bet you Bent is absolutely nowhere to be seen in regards to England. And/or is possibly playing Championship football for someone like Wolves?

 

[steevio_uk]

Stevo's cool so I'm sure he'll understand

@STevo, since this shit got quite long I suppose I'll leave my reasons as to why "I definitely think the "Current" Darren Bent is better than "Current" Walcott in more ways than one actually" for another time huh? or maybe I'll even pm that one so we don't clutter up the thread I don't know but for now I think this time I'm right in assuming we both need a bit of a break from this discussion?!

see ya man.

Probably a good idea :lol:

 

[PLF]

Ok will leave the actual discussion and analyzation of two for later then

Just one thing though, I wasn't talking directly about height or weight either. My point was "STRENGTH" which I don't believe is close even! Although strength is somewhat relied on weight.. not always though.

And that's one area plus aerial ability and many other things as to why Darren Bent as of right now is a more finished product and overall more dangerous than Theo in my opinion. I'll leave the long messages for later though

Regarding the betting.. sorry I didn't understand properly. So you do want to bet or no? I'm willing to bet about what you said if you want in your 2nd last post

take care dude.

 

[steevio_uk]

Yeah sure.

What is the wager? I have no idea?!

(Anything without money? Seeing as i'm skint!)

 

[PLF]

I don't know. You figure it out and let me know via pm later.

see ya gotta go now.

 

[Sabac Red]

The reason Walcott can't get a game is because he's at Arsenal and we've been on an amazing run which Wenger didn't want to disturb.

No it's because he's not french(or can't speak a word of it),
hence making him ineligible for Arsenal games.

 

[Alucard]

Originally Posted by Nickybaker
The reason Walcott can't get a game is because he's at Arsenal and we've been on an amazing run which Wenger didn't want to disturb.

Thats absolute BS. How then do you explain Johan Djourou getting a chance in the squad after Arsene Wenger made all those changes resting players before one of your CL game?

If Theo was so good Im sure he would of been given a chance in at least one of Arsenal's games this year.

 

[steevio_uk]

To be fair, Nickybaker is along the right lines imo.

Just more specifically that Arsenal's problems with injury were never in attack.
He has Henry, Van Persie, Reyes and the experience of Bergkamp.

Walcott was never really going to get a look in.

Though I am surprised he never really got a game.
But he was on the bench at the Bernabau and will be in the CL final squad if he is needed because of injury.

 

[Alucard]

Van persie was out injured for some time and reyes too. There was a period when Arsenal had alot of players injured including up in the attack. Im not too sure which ones they were, but i know reyes and van persie were out. Bergkamp disappeared for while.

As i said i find it difficult to believe he couldnt have been given a game if he was looking so good in training and in reserves. It wasnt even like any of those strikers beside Henry were in red hot form and couldnt be benched.

 

[RuneEdge]

I didnt bother reading that HUGE post. But now I can see where you're coming from, steevio. I still dont agree with you but your opinion makes sense.

I'll leave the arguing to PLF cuz he seems to be saying EXACTLY what I would have (almost scarey reading it :lol.

 

[steevio_uk]

No prob mate.

Alucard... you are right about the injured strikers, though im not sure they were all injured at once.:-k

 

[Alucard]

No prob mate.

Alucard... you are right about the injured strikers, though im not sure they were all injured at once.:-k

Im not saying they were all injured at once. My point is there was space and opportunity for wilcock to play. So utimatly Nickybakers excuse was a bunch of BS as i just proved. If the boy was so good he would have played. In my eyes Wenger hasnt much faith in the boy yet, he is more hoping he turns out to be great just like you.

 

[steevio_uk]

Im not saying they were all injured at once. My point is there was space and opportunity for wilcock to play. So utimatly Nickybakers excuse was a bunch of BS as i just proved. If the boy was so good he would have played. In my eyes Wenger hasnt much faith in the boy yet, he is more hoping he turns out to be great just like you.

Not hoping he turns out great (though I am cos of England!!)

More that I think he is very good now and better then Bent.
Which by now I am sure you realise!! :lol:

 

[denirobob]

To PLF & Steevio,

Whats the matter with you clowns?!?!? Darren Bent isn't fit to lace Marcus Bent's boots nor shine his gloriously hairfree noggin!



db

 

[Nickybaker]

Im not saying they were all injured at once. My point is there was space and opportunity for wilcock to play. So utimatly Nickybakers excuse was a bunch of BS as i just proved. If the boy was so good he would have played. In my eyes Wenger hasnt much faith in the boy yet, he is more hoping he turns out to be great just like you.

When he first joined he was rested for a couple of months as he is 17 and played every one of Southamptons games that season. When he came back he got three reserve games to get him going and then he got injured. When he came back from injury he made the bench for a few games but there was no need to use him.

He was due to maybe get a run out of for the Sunderland game but he got injured again.

He is good enough for the Arsenal team but Wenger is not going to use him until he is fully adapted to our game. That is why Wenger makes him play on the same team as Henry in training every day.

Your just blinded by your I love United and hate Arsenal bias and as for the comments of he doesn't play cause he isn't French, how many of the England squad play for United? Is it three? Now compare that to the Arsenal players in the squad you muppet. Our team consists of 2 Frenchmen on a semi-regular basis (Henry and Pires). Do you not have that many playing for you? Are you little France as well?

I know I shouldn't bite to your comments as I'm not the only person that thinks you talk shit but you just rub me up the wrong way.

 

[Nickybaker]

Hi mate,

Haven't there been any situations though where a few 10-15 minute run outs would of given the young lad some vital experience ?

That is what i find troubling from Erikksons perspective. e.g. As you say Wenger didn't want to jeopardise a good run, but if he was really is that shit hot where's then problem?

You've had a real fixture pile up of late, and with all due respect if he's not up to be giving a chance whilst chasing 4th place, is he ready for a game where there's even more at stake?

db

Hey Bob,

I have to agree that the world cup is too bigger stage for the boy but you never know, he could step up to the plate and watching his interview yesterday he seems to have his head screwed on.

As I pointed out in the post above I don't think he's ready for Arsenal's game yet and unfortunate injuries have affeted his chances of getting a game.

 

[Alucard]

When he first joined he was rested for a couple of months as he is 17 and played every one of Southamptons games that season. When he came back he got three reserve games to get him going and then he got injured. When he came back from injury he made the bench for a few games but there was no need to use him.

He was due to maybe get a run out of for the Sunderland game but he got injured again.

He is good enough for the Arsenal team but Wenger is not going to use him until he is fully adapted to our game. That is why Wenger makes him play on the same team as Henry in training every day.

Your just blinded by your I love United and hate Arsenal bias and as for the comments of he doesn't play cause he isn't French, how many of the England squad play for United? Is it three? Now compare that to the Arsenal players in the squad you muppet. Our team consists of 2
Frenchmen on a semi-regular basis (Henry and Pires). Do you not have that many playing for you? Are you little France as well?
I know I shouldn't bite to your comments as I'm not the only person that thinks you talk shit but you just rub me up the wrong way.

That still isnt legitimate excuse for him not getting one single game for so long, i mean how long was he injured for? and why should it take him so long to understand Arsenal's game if he trains with them everyday?. To be honest Its getting boring so i wont bother continue this, as your clearly just jumping from one excuse to the another. First you come up with 'it was he would have disturbed your 'amazing run' , then you say he was rested cuz he had played all of southampton's games, although he only started 13.
I'll be floating in the clouds before you admit arsenal didnt do something right. This just proves you just like to go round in circles. Oh yeah I wasnt one who mentioned he doesnt play cuz he aint french so you can take those comments back.

 

[beachryan]

I actually think taking Walcott was the best move Sven's made. And my theory is he won't even play a significant minute of football.

Where's the Rooney worry in the papers this morning? How about Owen? Where's all the pressure being levelled at the Gerrards, Lampards and Coles? Sven has pointed everyones attention on a 17 year old, and no doubt this will continue in the build up and cup itself. I bet he'll come on for a few sub appearances in the qualifiers, who knows maybe he'll even score, but his contribution to the team will be that he is the focus of attention, and that leaves all the other key players to play at their very best.

 

[Dead Man]

Well Rooneys out of cast now!

 

[Stringer Bell]

Man! Darren Bent must be pissed!

 

[Gedtillo]

I fail to understand how anyone can critisize the media and the "flashy star loving", state how Xavi or Albertini are great stars to him... and then prefer "flashy", but inexperienced, Theo Walcott to underrated but effective Darren Bent.

What I think is that people usually underrate scorers. I can clearly remember cases such as Lubo Penev, Juan Antonio Pizzi, Christian Vieri (when at Atlético Madrid)... Top scorers who were seen as poor players because "they only pushed the ball in". It is easy to score four, five, maybe eight or ten goals in a season if you play regularly. However, scoring 18-20 goals is not a matter of pure luck or of your teammates doing all the job and you tapping it in.

There are skills such as box positioning, cool nerves when going to shoot, heading+jumping timing, fighting with a defender for some space, following the game and knowing how to open spaces for other temmates and how to seize those that they open for you... Many strikers are not technically skilled in the pure Ronaldinho style, but instead are very good in all these things... and a '9' most times needs the former as much as the latter.

I'd say every team needs a target man, or at least a regular scorer to fixate defenders to his position.

 

[Gedtillo]

Plus, I wonder what was Sven thinking in only taking four strikers.

Let's say that Wayne Rooney doesn't make it, and the strikers that go are Michael Owen, Peter Crouch, Theo Walcott and Jermaine Defoe.

Let's say that Owen has not recovered well and gets injured in the first game.

Let's say that Defoe and Crouch make the attacking pair then. But Defoe gets two yellow cards in the first games, or Crouch gets sent off for a fight. That leaves us with, for example, Crouch and Walcott as a starting pair.

If that scenario happened as soon as at the second round, that could mean playing against host team Germany with Crouch + a total newbie. I don't want to think about who will substitute Crouch if England has to play an Extra time. The attacking pair would be Walcott+?. Amazing.

You might say that this scenario is very unlikely. Well, who would've said that Raúl would miss the quarter-finals against Korea in WC2002? It can well happen that you lose two strikers for a quarter-final or a semi-final game (one being sent off or receiving his second yellow, other getting injured). If England has problems with this, they might find themselves having to face Brazil, Spain, Italy or France with Walcott+a midfielder for 30 minutes or more.

It is nuts!

 

[JayM]

Gerrard could play upfront with little problem I think.

 

[Dead Man]

Plus, I wonder what was Sven thinking in only taking four strikers.

Let's say that Wayne Rooney doesn't make it, and the strikers that go are Michael Owen, Peter Crouch, Theo Walcott and Jermaine Defoe.

Let's say that Owen has not recovered well and gets injured in the first game.

Let's say that Defoe and Crouch make the attacking pair then. But Defoe gets two yellow cards in the first games, or Crouch gets sent off for a fight. That leaves us with, for example, Crouch and Walcott as a starting pair.

If that scenario happened as soon as at the second round, that could mean playing against host team Germany with Crouch + a total newbie. I don't want to think about who will substitute Crouch if England has to play an Extra time. The attacking pair would be Walcott+?. Amazing.

You might say that this scenario is very unlikely. Well, who would've said that Raúl would miss the quarter-finals against Korea in WC2002? It can well happen that you lose two strikers for a quarter-final or a semi-final game (one being sent off or receiving his second yellow, other getting injured). If England has problems with this, they might find themselves having to face Brazil, Spain, Italy or France with Walcott+a midfielder for 30 minutes or more.

It is nuts!

All this 'Lets say' this is speculation. At the end of the day the team is picked.

Owen said he was fine & will the use the 3 gams as fitness training.

Joe Cole will probably playala Rooney for group games will Rooney(if recovery keeps improving) being ready for 2nd round. Crouch can start if needed & Gerrard can play in Rooneys position.