The decadence of WE

M

marcio mengao

Non-League
21 December 2006
There is no doubt that WE 9 evolved from WE 8 with many improvements despite of all the ridiculous fouls called by the refs. Despite that evolution, the difficulty level to play against the CPU remained low for experienced players like us.

But after that, everything began to get worse. WE 10 came out with a few improvements like the end of little fouls. However, the easy dribling and making indiividual runs and plays’ cycle began and it lasts till the date on WE 2008. Since then, Konami makes some improvements and make other aspects of the game worse. They cannot get it most of it right.

On PES 2008 the AI got better to make offensive plays but it got even worse on defence. It is ridiculous how we can pass through some of the best defenders of the game. The IA offensive moves couldn’t get worse from its historical low level reachead on PES 6, WE PES 2007 and WE 10 J League.

FIFA has been improving for the last few years but it is not quite there yet. It still trails PES/WE but if things continue this way, EA will overtake Konami as the kind of eletronic soccer games.

I really cannot understand how Konami let things slip and get so easy to dribble and make individual plays after WE 9. I lost my faith in Konami.
 
hargreaves4 said:
Still trails We/Pes? I dont see how you can say FIFA isnt as good! especially this year with the Arcadey Gameplay of PES2008....
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And you wont see since you find the tennis like ball trajectories and the pathetic gamestyle of FIFA "realistic"...
The only thing thats holding PES2008 back are the defenders and the speed of the game...
If gameplay at its core is crap no matter how slow you make it will still be crap...
 
hellenes said:
And you wont see since you find the tennis like ball trajectories and the pathetic gamestyle of FIFA "realistic"...
The only thing thats holding PES2008 back are the defenders and the speed of the game...
If gameplay at its core is crap no matter how slow you make it will still be crap...
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but its not.... your blind if you cant see the gameplay of fifa is more then decent, its not perfect, but its a good start!
 
hellenes said:
And you wont see since you find the tennis like ball trajectories and the pathetic gamestyle of FIFA "realistic"...
The only thing thats holding PES2008 back are the defenders and the speed of the game...
If gameplay at its core is crap no matter how slow you make it will still be crap...
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nah I think you will find the Ball Physics are fookin rubbish, the players run and control the ball in a Arcade Football manner and the shooting is crap.....

Goalies are fookin awful, edit mode is gay what else?
 
I only play fifa against people in online leagues arranged here. If it wasn't for this, i would've sold it. Fifa has definitely improved don't get me wrong. I like the fact that it "looks" like real footy, but i am still not impressed with its gameplay and reaction times. Not a good footy gaming year for me really. I hope 2K sports take a shot at making a footy game.
 
For me, all Fifa needs to do is to get the response times sorted along with player likeness/models, long/balls and heading. If this is fixed, the game would be perfect in my view.

And let's not forget getting the Net Physics tweaked as well ;-)
 
Shankley4 said:
I 100% 2nd this post.... :) Not too fussed about nets though but I know you love them Jflores :)
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Yes my friend, I beleive the future looks bright and exciting for us futbol fanatics. I beleive that Nokami will get their head out of their bottoms and give us a 10 times better version than this one by the end of this year or early next year. I also beleive that EA will improve dramatically on all areas and will deliver a big BANG! for our bucks.

The future indeed looks bright in my humble opinion.
 
yes I know..it's very frustrating. Unfortunately, we are at their mercy since it's out of our control. We could control this if we decided not to buy their products, however that would mean that many folks would have to bend over backwards to exercise their self controls on the overwhelming urge of buying this games. And so, in reality, it's really out of our control. All we can do is hope that they mean what they say and keep the faith alive that one day they will deliver what they promised.

I have faith that they will do this in their next versions. If this is not the case, I will continue to wait on them faithfully. I need to hold on to something to keep me going, and that something is the "faith" that they will one day deliver.
 
DJ Doc4 said:
nah I think you will find the Ball Physics are fookin rubbish, the players run and control the ball in a Arcade Football manner and the shooting is crap.....

Goalies are fookin awful, edit mode is gay what else?
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Ball control is the same as always...Ball physics are scewed in the favor of the non existing AI...(we wont see an AI in our lifetime cheating is the only way to defeat a Homo Sapiens with IQ over 60)...
In 1v1 games shooting isnt as bad as in ML cheat fest...
And my Goalie Gomes hasnt done anything stupid in 45 matches now...it really depends on the stats...
Anyway you may have your opinion and I have mine Fifa has improved but both EA has a long way up and KONAMI has a long way down to meet each other...
 
I still feel fifa has to do more than pes to give us the most enjoyable football game.
Seabass coming out and saying that he is not happy with PES 2008 and is not what he wanted gives me hope, which actually sounds ridiculous.
 
zeemeister said:
I still feel fifa has to do more than pes to give us the most enjoyable football game.
Seabass coming out and saying that he is not happy with PES 2008 and is not what he wanted gives me hope, which actually sounds ridiculous.
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Enjoyable... oh yes because PES 2008 is 100% arcade and nothing more....

And what about them Dogs on the master league screens? how much more crap can the series get?
 
hellenes said:
Ball control is the same as always...Ball physics are scewed in the favor of the non existing AI...(we wont see an AI in our lifetime cheating is the only way to defeat a Homo Sapiens with IQ over 60)...
In 1v1 games shooting isnt as bad as in ML cheat fest...
And my Goalie Gomes hasnt done anything stupid in 45 matches now...it really depends on the stats...
Anyway you may have your opinion and I have mine Fifa has improved but both EA has a long way up and KONAMI has a long way down to meet each other...
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Ok time for a rant....[Rant]

Here is what I like about PES 2008
Good player faces
ummm thats about it!

Here is what I DONT like about PES
Cartoony Rubbish Graphics
CPU Cheating and bullshit deflections (they happen EVERY single game Check out Jack Bauer's Video on why he hates PES)
CPU AI is awful Where is this so called team vision? (again check out JB's video)
You can only move in a stupid restriction of directions (this is 2008 konami not 1996!)Less content than previous versions (what the hell is with that?)
Licenses (ok not much they can do about that)
Stupid Cheesy shit like Dogs in Master League screens or Animal heads in Edit Mode (what the fuck is with them?)
The game now runs like an old Sega Saturn Football game (it feels a bit like World Wide Soccer, Run, Run, CPU Assisted Pass, Run, Run and Shoot a hard shot, watch goalie do stupid fumble and tap in for your 2nd striker!)
Edit mode on 2008 is fuckin rubbish!
The Physics of the game are STILL back in 1999! Collision Detection is fucked and has been for years!!

Now with FIFA, you get the odd bit of CPU AI Cheating ( I know that) but no where near as bad as PES has been. Also Yep the physics SOMETIMES can feel a bit off but on the whole the game is getting as close to a simulation as you can get. The players feel like they have weight to them as does the ball. The ball has its own physics not strapped to the player (unlike PES)

What more can I say? If you cant notice the difference between what a simulation is and an arcade fest then there is just no helping you. You will go out and buy PES 2009 and still say its amazing when the graphics are the same, Gameplay same shit and this time you have 2 DOGS on the master league screen instead of 1!!!

FIFA has its issue but im sorry there is a HUGE gap between PES and FIFA.. in favour of FIFA which most people who know and like simulations would agree with me.

[/rant]
 
Don't get me wrong djdoc FIFA 08 is a good, solid title and has improved immensely but IMHO it needs to fix more things than PES does to be the best.

By the way PES 2008 is definitely the worst in the series and in the previous ISS/WE games I'm not refering to edit mode or lack of game modes, I'm talking about the game engine.
 
Whether people choose to play FIFA instead is always going to be debatable, some think it's great, others don't. You can't change someone's mind on that even if you're 100% sure of your opinion.

What it's a relief to see (and it is genuine relief as someone who used to love the game) is that the majority of people (including former fanboys) are saying, as zeemeister has said above, that it is by far the worst ISS/PES/WE game to date. For as long as people recognise that and don't automatically buy the game, Konami will be forced to take the problems with it seriously.

Even if you like the insane gameplay, the fact that it's incredibly rare to play a non-lagging game without the magically disappearing and reappearing (in the net) players is disgraceful, and it is disgusting treatment of their loyal fanbase. I just hope that the majority of that fanbase keeps its money in its pocket next year (if it's still on the same downward spiral) until Konami get their finger out of their ass.

At the start of this "football gaming year" (i.e. when the games were released) I remember reading time and time again, "people moan about PES but after a month or two they say it's the best PES ever and FIFA gets put in the bin - loads of idiots moan about it and then the exact same idiots say they love it to death a few weeks afterwards". Where are these people now?

The fact that Konami released a public statement condemning the first negative review as "wrong" and "based on a beta version", then looked on in horror as practically every other respectable gaming source in the world stated the same poor opinion of the game, and the fact that PES2008 was available for practically half-price a month after release, as well as the fact that out of 100 people on my friends list not one regularly plays the game (whereas 20-odd play FIFA 08 between once a week and seven days a week), plus the fact that nobody I know is talking about it any more (or even asking for a quick match on it any more), says it all to me. As far as I am concerned, unless Seabass sticks to his word and puts in a shitload of work this year, Pro Evo is dead.
 
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Jack Bauer said:
Whether people choose to play FIFA instead is always going to be debatable, some think it's great, others don't. You can't change someone's mind on that even if you're 100% sure of your opinion.

What it's a relief to see (and it is genuine relief as someone who used to love the game) is that the majority of people (including former fanboys) are saying, as zeemeister has said above, that it is by far the worst ISS/PES/WE game to date. For as long as people recognise that and don't automatically buy the game, Konami will be forced to take the problems with it seriously.

Even if you like the insane gameplay, the fact that it's incredibly rare to play a non-lagging game without the magically disappearing and reappearing (in the net) players is disgraceful, and it is disgusting treatment of their loyal fanbase. I just hope that the majority of that fanbase keeps its money in its pocket next year (if it's still on the same downward spiral) until Konami get their finger out of their ass.

At the start of this "football gaming year" (i.e. when the games were released) I remember reading time and time again, "people moan about PES but after a month or two they say it's the best PES ever and FIFA gets put in the bin - loads of idiots moan about it and then the exact same idiots say they love it to death a few weeks afterwards". Where are these people now?

The fact that Konami released a public statement condemning the first negative review as "wrong" and "based on a beta version", then looked on in horror as practically every other respectable gaming source in the world stated the same poor opinion of the game, and the fact that PES2008 was available for practically half-price a month after release, as well as the fact that out of 100 people on my friends list not one regularly plays the game (whereas 20-odd play FIFA 08 between once a week and seven days a week), plus the fact that nobody I know is talking about it any more (or even asking for a quick match on it any more), says it all to me. As far as I am concerned, unless Seabass sticks to his word and puts in a shitload of work this year, Pro Evo is dead.
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The most frequent complaint I hear from people in Greece about pes2008 is "Its crap like Fifa" or "they made it like fifa and ruined it"....
So IMO there is no need to say that PES2008 plays like crap...it just plays like fifa...The running animation if i remember correctly looks like from fifa 2002...
And I still cant understand why on earth KONAMI would copy all the crap from FIFA... :roll:
 
Haha, I try to turn the thread away from PES v FIFA in my first paragraph, and you reply with that. Well done, enjoy the flame war.
 
jflores said:
For me, all Fifa needs to do is to get the response times sorted along with player likeness/models, long/balls and heading. If this is fixed, the game would be perfect in my view.

And let's not forget getting the Net Physics tweaked as well ;-)
Click to expand...
And real time weather conditions,then fifa will have it. ok what is good about we/pe2008?
 
Wow! this game is looking very next-gen. Look at that crowd!
http://ps3.ign.com/articles/844/844321p1.html

Seabass, take notes. We want a truly next-gen game with a next-gen experience. Fix the gameplay, Master League, licenses, running animations, GK's, Goal/Nets, remove the breese blocks, animal heads, dogs in parks. Make the training mode more exciting as before. Give us realistic weather conditions with puddles of water that can affect ball and player performance on the field. Get rid of the scripting and invisible barriers around players on throw-ins. Give us a much better atmosphere with realistic crowd reactions. Show the sub players warming up on sidelines and get rid of those awful cardboard cutouts on the bench. Give us more freedom in-game as Fifa did!

Bottom line, add life back to the series for goodness sake!

You have sooo many things to fix Seabass, I hope you are working night and day with your small team to give us a completely new and improved overhauled gameplay/Master League and other add ons mentioned above if possible.

You owe it to us Seabass! you owe it to us...
 
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jflores said:
Wow! this game is looking very next-gen. Look at that crowd!
http://ps3.ign.com/articles/844/844321p1.html

Seabass, take notes. We want a truly next-gen game with a next-gen experience. Fix the gameplay, Master League, licenses, running animations, GK's, Goal/Nets, remove the breese blocks, animal heads, dogs in parks. Make the training mode more exciting as before. Give us realistic weather conditions with puddles of water that can affect ball and player performance on the field. Get rid of the scripting and invisible barriers around players on throw-ins. Give us a much better atmosphere with realistic crowd reactions. Show the sub players warming up on sidelines and get rid of those awful cardboard cutouts on the bench. Give us more freedom in-game as Fifa did!

Bottom line, add life back to the series for goodness sake!

You have sooo many things to fix Seabass, I hope you are working night and day with your small team to give us a completely new and improved overhauled gameplay/Master League and other add ons mentioned above if possible.

You owe it to us Seabass! you owe it to us...
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Licenses are quite impossible to achieve...EA bought EPL for another 5 years...
Anyway I have to admit that that video looked insanely good...
 
Jack Bauer said:
Haha, I try to turn the thread away from PES v FIFA in my first paragraph, and you reply with that. Well done, enjoy the flame war.
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I dont want to have a flame war I just state what I hear from people thats the consensus...
Now you may like FIFA and close your eyes to its core flaws that ruin the immersion and the bare function...
But Im not closing my eyes on PES2008 and since it failed at sales and KONAMI pathetically tried to reduce price from £45 to £25 and still failed Im confident that PES2009 will be HUGELY improved since they have the graphics engine ready...
Now they will need to fix the skin textures apart from faces (PES2008 faces >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fifa08 faces) and collision detection...All the rest is gameplay/animation tweaks...
 
hellenes. JB has NOT Closed his eyes to the main flaws of it. There of course are some and we have ALL Highlighted them. However this doesnt really detract from the Multiplayer experience of FIFA 08 which is fantastic. Single player can take a long time to get used to but eventually its excellent. Im sorry but PES2008 has gone so far back it could probably run on a PlayStation 1 without too much trouble.. Hell they could even make it work on a C64... Master League Dogs and Old men incuded!
 
DJ Doc4 said:
hellenes. JB has NOT Closed his eyes to the main flaws of it. There of course are some and we have ALL Highlighted them. However this doesnt really detract from the Multiplayer experience of FIFA 08 which is fantastic. Single player can take a long time to get used to but eventually its excellent. Im sorry but PES2008 has gone so far back it could probably run on a PlayStation 1 without too much trouble.. Hell they could even make it work on a C64... Master League Dogs and Old men incuded!
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Well PES2008 problem is only the online multiplayer something that Japanese developers hate to make...hell Gran Turismo hasnt had any multiplayer for over a decade...same screen MP is fine as far as lag is concerned...
My main problem with FIFA is its bare function that kills any feeling that Im watching football...the ball trajectories the controlling of the ball the bare movement (hint hint I and lots of other people think that PES2008 running animation is straight from Fifa) and interaction is wrong...
I admit that its obvious that theyve tried to get rid of this plague that haunted them since the first fifa...but still they have quite long way up...
As far as graphics are concerned and if PES2008 can run on a PS1...well FIFA08's faces can run on NES...and if we go by it the baggy pants and the corpses can run too...
What is good this year is that KONAMI couldnt get away with this...they thought that by giving Seabass team same resources as last gen he could fool us...he didnt so now that they have the visual engine ready they will focus on gameplay or return to 1996 to PS1 days that fifa ruled and they were outcasts...
 
That's quite a good effort there from hellenes, hopefully that will turn the thread back to the original topic rather than another flame war thread. :thumbup:

(Just because it's quite hard to tell sometimes on the internet: that's genuine and not sarcasm)
 
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