Seabass: PES 2009 forced back to drawing board

[predator002]

Well the updated SWOS is coming out for the 360 soon so hopefully Seabass can have a play of its manager mode and see how much the master league falls well short.

Its amazing how Sensible can program a decent manager mode in about 1 or 2 years and Konami have took 7 years and failed to get anywhere near it never mind better it.

 

[Chris Davies]

Agreed. Licensing is not the issue and vanzandt's comments don't make much sense to me.

This game has never been about licenses. It's always had bogus names, even in the days (not that long ago) when it only had a few dozen teams.

The game already has 20 teams called something like Team 1 to Team 20 with Player Names along the lines of Player1, Player 2, etc. This is their substitute for the Bundesliga.

The English Premier League is still unlicensed (bar 2 teams). It's probably the most popular league in the game yet they still release it unlicensed. So they could equally release unlicensed Championship, League 1 and League 2 teams, but they choose not to.

Much of the data for none "star" teams is clearly made up. They've not done an analysis of all the minor teams already in the game to get exact player stats for every player. Much of it is just generic garbage, probably typed in at random by monkeys.

The game has never been about havig all the minor teams and players licensed and accurate. They're just stocking fillers around the stars.

None of these things stop them from creating proper league structures. The only thing stopping them is their own attitude.

The game is elitest. They don't care about the lesser teams.

The game will always lack integrity whilst the ML is such a joke.

Seabass recently proclaimed that PES2008 now has 20-team leagues in the ML. He made the remark as if it was some kid of glorious technological breakthrough. He has clearly never seen SWOS.

It's because the Japs don't care about lower-league European football, they don't know who any of the teams are, they can't afford (i.e. they refuse to spend money on) researchers to get the stats right for all these new teams (not that they get the stats right for most clubs anyway) and they won't make seperate games for the different regions.

What pisses me off is that all the other Japanese football games include them anyway. See World Football Climax. I was astonished to see Tranmere in there, fake name(s) or otherwise you knew who it was straight away, stats were about right and the lack of license did nothing to detract from the experience. In-fact I tried solidly for two weeks to like the game, whereas if it had been just another football game (with tons of licenses but no lower-leagues) I wouldn't have even rented it.

 

[Lami]

Maybe that letter to Konami should include a request to hire certain people for the ML job. I'm pretty sure many hardcore pes fans who also happen to be programers would happily do the job for a cheap price. Maybe even recommend a couple...?

 

[Dukelord]

Seabass needs good a$$fuck, then he release patch for PES 2008 and makes good PES 2009....bloody wanka!!!

 

[vanzandt]

Agreed. Licensing is not the issue and vanzandt's comments don't make much sense to me.

What is there not to understand about what I have written?

This is an issue about the direction and choices that Konami choose to make.

Konami has been absolutely slaughtered for its lack of licensing and in the fact that player likenesses trail behind that of FIFA. Why would they want give themselves an even bigger job of obtaining licenses and of having to create and manage a far greater data-set?

If they couldn't get the licenses, why would they just go ahead with un-licensed generic teams, players etc and open themselves up to being slaughtered by the gaming press and by the buying public?

What is difficult to understand about this point?

Also….

Obtaining all the licenses, creating all the player likenesses, generating all the correct data this is not simple as people would have you believe.

Unless you just wanted generic kits, player’s faces teams etc....

And I don't think Konami will want to do that because it will feel who want to see this would be in the minority. They would fear bad reviews and people turning off the game if it looked poor, so they will probably keep to a smaller data-set.

Also very importantly;

Konami have always specialized in a smaller data-set and a concentration of its resources on the game logic, A.I and Animation system. In other words they have concentrated their efforts on how the game itself plays.

If you want all the leagues you are talking about why don't you just play FIFA, or SWOS?

If you then say Ah….but those games don't play as well, then maybe you should realize that is because of where Konami has spent their time- making the game play better.

And why does FIFA not play as well, maybe because of the reverse, that they spend all of their (considerably more) time and resources creating and managing a large data-set to the detriment of how the game plays.

In any regard can people stop quoting SWOS as what would be required in order to put in place what people are talking about would be utterly different and that game isn’t comparable.

If anything is required at this stage from Konami it is probably a complete re-write of the game engine, logic, A.I and animation system. There is only so many times that you can update any given code base before it is inherently dated and has a legacy of problems.

If Konami take a talented team and go to the drawing board with the correct ethos that they have had so many times in the past then I am sure they can create a game that simply plays far better than anything that currently exists, something that would have far more pulling power than simply funneling resources into a larger data-set.

I saw a real world physics engine applied to football movement some years ago, this is something that football games are crying out for, something that looks stunning and something would would really alter the direction of football games. Back then the programing overheads were too great, but with P23 theye wouldn't be. That is just one big thing that could happen with football games- other big bold changes are out there and can happen and these are the things that can take football games to another level that the likes of Konami should be focusing on.

 

[Chris Davies]

But if you already had a great game engine then surely it wouldn't hurt to merely add a few tweaks and spend the rest of the time doing up the database. They barely do anything to the gameplay sometimes anyway, and so any reviews that say "the gameplay is the same" would be written regardless. They might as well do something of value.

Plus, excuse me as I have no insider knowledge of working in games, but aren't games teams set up so that you have different departments working on different things? Gameplay, database, art etc.? In which case, why is it so hard for them to change more than one element at a time?

If they only concentrated on gameplay every year, and that was a rule for all games, nothing would ever move on and become a deeper and better game, surely... Sequels wouldn't be worth buying because the movement would change but the settings would be the same (saying that, that's pretty much how I feel about the last three years of PES).

You say that they're slated for having so much unlicensed stuff. I remember reading a few reviews like that years ago but now most people understand that it's not Konami's fault in a lot of cases, and that EA have exclusive licenses for a lot of things. So I don't see why adding unlicensed leagues would harm the reviews; it doesn't mean they'd have to remove the licensed leagues that they do have. No reviewer in his right mind would mark down a game for having the same amount of licensed leagues AND adding a few unlicensed leagues on top of that.

 

[vanzandt]

But if you already had a great game engine then surely it wouldn't hurt to merely add a few tweaks and spend the rest of the time doing up the database..

What would be required wouldn’t be tweaks, it would be major work.

They barely do anything to the gameplay sometimes anyway, and so any reviews that say "the gameplay is the same" would be written regardless. They might as well do something of value.

We don’t know how much time and resources go into tweaking the gameplay, certainly the game has changed quite a lot since number 5 in the way it plays whether people think it or not. When dealing with the codebase they have, it might be very difficult and time consuming to change the gameplay, to tweak it, that can happen when you are dealing with code that has constantly been re-written. I have seen people work for weeks on a given piece of A.I in order to get a small change to work. So the changes you see in terms of how the game plays might take quite a while to get working in the game believe it or not. This is one of the major reasons that after a while you really need a complete re-write.

One title I worked we went into the motion capture studio to get some new animations for the game. Animations were sorted out model skinned etc and they were coded into the game. One of the animations was incorrectly exported. It was supposed to be a referee holding out a out card to a player as he did so he was supposed to lean forward on one leg. Instead of that happening his leg bent forward at the knee. That looked VERY odd. But that was nothing. Somehow we now had a problem in that all the players had disappeared. We found that somehow in coding these new animations, somehow it had affected a differing part of the game that set the level of the players to the texture of the pitch.. We found the players were still playing football, we found them via a camera replay….they were playing football at about the height of the stadium roof, floating about in the air. It took about 3 days to sort that one out.

Like I said no matter how well code is commented or organized, after years of programming and subsequent versions of a game it becomes like wires at the back of your tele and when something gets pulled out it can turn your tv on or switch your lights out..

Also bare in mind that they maybe stretching these resources over multiple platforms and that might not have been something that they were doing prior.

Plus, excuse me as I have no insider knowledge of working in games, but aren't games teams set up so that you have different departments working on different things? Gameplay, database, art etc.? In which case, why is it so hard for them to change more than one element at a time?
.

It doesn’t work like that at all.

When a project is set out at the start you usually have a concept and or game design document and sometimes a technical document and schedule. The game design document addresses all the changes you are looking to put in place for the current game.

The data-set, isn’t something “Tom in the database team” can just go off and decide to alter as the game logic is written in an express way to use a given set of data. If someone went out and started changing the data you might get the whole game falling to pieces-seriously. You have the datat that the game uses, you have certain parameters in terms storage, you have the requirement of licenses for data, etc etc.

The point is, is that alteration of data, obtaining of licenses, use of resource, direction of team, codeing of all aspects of the game including the front end are all high level decisions that need to me made early on or relatively so. All aspects of the game fall in line with the schedule that needs to be signed off on and agreed with the publisher/money men.

If they only concentrated on gameplay every year, and that was a rule for all games, nothing would ever move on and become a deeper and better game, surely... Sequels wouldn't be worth buying because the movement would change but the settings would be the same (saying that, that's pretty much how I feel about the last three years of PES).
.

It is about choices made by the developer.

Go and play PES1 or PES2 and see how much the game has changed. Konami has spent a massive amount of time choosing to put most of their resources into changing and updating the way the game has played, making the animation system smoother, adding new animations etc. They have spent most of their time on the core game.

They did not have to do that- they just chose to do that.

Now has that made it better or worse than FIFA?

I would say a lot better.

Are they running into the ground a little bit and making few changes worth of the money on the last two versions- maybe yes.

And maybe they are now struggling with the legacy of an old code base and with stretching their resources over mutli platforms.

So maybe this is the point at which they need to go from scratch and go with a complete re-write of the game. Take the skills, experience and ethos that has taken them to the top and write a new football game.

You say that they're slated for having so much unlicensed stuff. I remember reading a few reviews like that years ago but now most people understand that it's not Konami's fault in a lot of cases, and that EA have exclusive licenses for a lot of things. So I don't see why adding unlicensed leagues would harm the reviews; it doesn't mean they'd have to remove the licensed leagues that they do have. No reviewer in his right mind would mark down a game for having the same amount of licensed leagues AND adding a few unlicensed leagues on top of that.

Never underestimate the incompetence of the gaming press.

I think you are wrong here, I think that a whole load of unlicensed leagues, teams and generic faces would see Konami get slaughtered in the gaming press and they would be hammered in comparison to FIFA. Further more the typical bloke in the street would also be likely to turn his nose up at it, if it looked aesthetically less appealing than FIFA.

Also none of this will make the game play any better…it just wont and you are mistaking how many people would be interested in the feature. I guarantee that very few people would use the teams out of the lower leagues.

Can anyone say any of this would be a better idea that Konami creating a new game, with a new game engine and nw AI and animation etc….perhaps with an exciting new and realistic ball physics engine etc?

Anyway….I am leaving it there.

We will all just have to wait and see what Konami do next and see if their footballing games can survive the transition to the next gen consoles or not

 

[Chris Davies]

Can anyone say any of this would be a better idea that Konami creating a new game, with a new game engine and nw AI and animation etc….perhaps with an exciting new and realistic ball physics engine etc?

If PES2008 is supposed to be a closer step to realism than the previous games, which is what I've always thought they've been working towards, then shit; I'd rather have the masses of teams and set the gameplay back a year, please. I've seen rebounds zip off like shots out of cannons and the gameplay is way too fast. If you slow the replays right down you can see how passes are sucked into the ground, sped off on a rail and then arrive neatly at their target. Plus, in a series that used to be the most bug-free game I played, it's gone crazy. The rest of my problems with the game are in the videos in my sig, some say I'm bullshitting or whatever, but believe it or not, I don't care. I know that these issues are there and whether everyone believes it or they don't it doesn't matter, as I've already had about 20 PMs saying "yep, they happen to me too". That's enough for me.

So personally, I don't think Konami are ever going to create a fantastic game engine that replicates real life. I think their aim is now purely to make a fun game - which is fair enough, but that's not what I want. Every night I play FIFA 08 online I see fantastic physics and a huge difference between each goal. That's what I want.

If they added lower-leagues, however, it would give me an incentive to keep the game purely because (especially if you could play in a realistic career mode rather than in a two-division ML) it would add so much longevity to the game. I'm not a psychic but I don't think the gameplay in PES is going to pull me back in for a long time now. So it's going to be new features or no purchase, from me. I think FIFA 08 on the 360 is a fantastic game and I'm more than happy with it - I've played it a lot since release and this is from one of the guys who used to say "FIFA will last you a week, you'll see". I just hope EA don't produce the same game for the next five years now that they've hit on a winning formula.

But I won't discuss it any more, because I don't want it to seem like my anger at such a crappy game is anger directed at you. I don't know how games companies work but as a customer, all I know is that I cannot stand what they've done to PES2008 and they've got a lot of work on to get a lot of their fanbase back (on personal experience, ten of my hardcore PES mates - ten out of ten - have switched to FIFA 08 on the 360/PS3 and they're not even tempted to rent PES2008, and looking at the first post in this thread Seabass is in trouble).

 

[hangar18]

@ Jack Bauer and Winston:

I completely agree with your sentiments. As I've said before I do have experience in writing games (not as much as vanzandt by the sounds of it) and I fail to see how it would take that much time and effort to write a basic management and league structure like SWOS. Sorry but I just dont. Now just to clarify what I means when it comes to player/team names:
- Random names (forget even trying to come up with semi-recognisable names) gamers can fix this up at their leisure
- Random faces / bodies - again gamers can fix this up

All that is required is a basic OOP for 1 modifyable league and then add to hearts content. Now there are 2 important caveats:

i) I'm assuming the current code has been written efficiently, but given the number of PES updates over the years I fear it could contain more patches than a patchwork quilt.

ii) familiarity with the code and layout

If these 2 assumptions hold true then I would bet my house on the fact I could write a SWOS type management environment within say 2-3 weeks.
Sorry I dont want this to sound like I'm on some kind of ego trip - I'm not - its just I fail to see why it is so hard for Konami to invest a few weeks adding this to their game. How the crowds would roar if they do. And as for the comments regarding PES being slated by lack of licences, I would also bet my house on the fact that if there was a choice between the next PES game having licences or having a SWOS league/manangement structure, PES would sell many more copies going the SWOS route.

 

[winston]

Konami has been absolutely slaughtered for its lack of licensing and in the fact that player likenesses trail behind that of FIFA.

Arrant nonsense. Konami have received unfathomable amounts of praise for their now very sub-standard game. Lack of licensing has never stopped the press creaming themselves about how this game is apparently football perfection. They mention licenses in passing, but invariably score it 90-95% until this year's shambolic mess.

Why would they want give themselves an even bigger job of obtaining licenses and of having to create and manage a far greater data-set?

If they couldn't get the licenses, why would they just go ahead with un-licensed generic teams, players etc and open themselves up to being slaughtered by the gaming press and by the buying public?

What is difficult to understand about this point?

But they already do. Have you not noticed their English Premiership? Or Team 1 - Team 20? The game is such a mess of licensed, unlicensed and blank teams that having a whole pile of additional teams with generalised attributes is hardly going to get the press in a rage, particularly if in doing so, they actually open up the one-player mode to have proper leagues structres thus adding a whole new depth to the game.

Also….

Obtaining all the licenses, creating all the player likenesses, generating all the correct data this is not simple as people would have you believe.

Yes it is. Forgetting the licenses issue which I've already said is a complete red-harring, just look at the amazing patches made for free in a short space of time by community members.

Konami makes $millions every year from PES/WE so to expect them to invest a little time and money in some basic research and data entry is hardly asking for much.

Unless you just wanted generic kits, player’s faces teams etc....

They already do that, so what's new?

Incidently, for all EA's huge investment in licenses, once you get beyond the main teams, most of the players are generic in terms of made up appearances and attributes. They have a database team that receives input from fans to help update the database, but it's far from accurate. The press aren't exactly slaughtering them for that.

And I don't think Konami will want to do that because it will feel who want to see this would be in the minority. They would fear bad reviews and people turning off the game if it looked poor, so they will probably keep to a smaller data-set.

Laughable.

It's little wonder PES has become so poor if attitudes like your prevail in the industry.

 

[gerd]

For once that we have somebody who is giving detailed and knowledgeable "inside" information, he gets slaughtered...
Vanzandt, i'm fascinated by your points of view...please continue this discussion for the benefit of the people who do have respect for your experience...

There is one thing tht i don't understand about Konami. Over the years the lack of licenses has proved to be a blessing in disguise (for the hardcore fans i.e. people like us who visit the forums): now there is this huge community of people who are making kits, boots, appearances of players, stats (look at PLF's thread). I don't think it should be hard to Konami to "use" a part of the community...why for instance not ask people like PLF to help with stats, why not ask people to make kits, appearances...
SIGames does it for Football Manager, and other games do it too...
Furthermore this could culminate in a fantastic online mode...set up an online ML of league between the teams that were created by the players...let them "make" squads of 22 players with a maximum of points (stats and special abilities)to use for one squad...this would be a fantastic online mode...it would create a large bond between Konami and the fans...
Do you have any idea Vanzandt why Konami does not search a way to involve the huge community????

@ jack bauer:

I've bought FIFA08 and it's a pretty good game, but after a while i noticed that players and teams are almost identical...maybe i should try the online modes...but in single player i still prefer PES despite the very obvious flaws...

 

[vanzandt]

It's little wonder PES has become so poor if attitudes like your prevail in the industry.

My poor attitude as you put it led me to designing two 9/10 football games as shown in Official Playstation magazine. I worked in some of the top software development studies in the world and was also at one point a senior producer dealing with mutli-million pound budgets.

Obviously I am useless and you of course have proven yourself in the industry right? I mean you know what you are talking about because you have been and done it right? Because otherwise to tell me I don't know what I am talking about, if you had never worked in the industry at all...well that would be crazy and you would never do that would you?

Oh wait :roll:


I contributed a load of information to the thread offered an inside track on why things are often not how you would like- the reality from in the industry and for that, because your opinion differs from mine- you flame me.

Little wonder when people choose to not post very often on these sites- because this is the kind of the thing they you yourself in for.

I stopped posting on the football section because of this kind of thing and in my very first thread I get the same stuff here. I should have known better than to post at all.

I don't need this frankly so I'm not posting at the site anymore in any capacity.

 

[hellenes]

If PES2008 is supposed to be a closer step to realism than the previous games, which is what I've always thought they've been working towards, then shit; I'd rather have the masses of teams and set the gameplay back a year, please. I've seen rebounds zip off like shots out of cannons and the gameplay is way too fast. If you slow the replays right down you can see how passes are sucked into the ground, sped off on a rail and then arrive neatly at their target. Plus, in a series that used to be the most bug-free game I played, it's gone crazy. The rest of my problems with the game are in the videos in my sig, some say I'm bullshitting or whatever, but believe it or not, I don't care. I know that these issues are there and whether everyone believes it or they don't it doesn't matter, as I've already had about 20 PMs saying "yep, they happen to me too". That's enough for me.

So personally, I don't think Konami are ever going to create a fantastic game engine that replicates real life. I think their aim is now purely to make a fun game - which is fair enough, but that's not what I want. Every night I play FIFA 08 online I see fantastic physics and a huge difference between each goal. That's what I want.

If they added lower-leagues, however, it would give me an incentive to keep the game purely because (especially if you could play in a realistic career mode rather than in a two-division ML) it would add so much longevity to the game. I'm not a psychic but I don't think the gameplay in PES is going to pull me back in for a long time now. So it's going to be new features or no purchase, from me. I think FIFA 08 on the 360 is a fantastic game and I'm more than happy with it - I've played it a lot since release and this is from one of the guys who used to say "FIFA will last you a week, you'll see". I just hope EA don't produce the same game for the next five years now that they've hit on a winning formula.

But I won't discuss it any more, because I don't want it to seem like my anger at such a crappy game is anger directed at you. I don't know how games companies work but as a customer, all I know is that I cannot stand what they've done to PES2008 and they've got a lot of work on to get a lot of their fanbase back (on personal experience, ten of my hardcore PES mates - ten out of ten - have switched to FIFA 08 on the 360/PS3 and they're not even tempted to rent PES2008, and looking at the first post in this thread Seabass is in trouble).

I believe youre lucky...Ive tried FIFA08 on the 360 for almost half a month and it made me vomit even worst than PES2008...No footy game for me this year... :sad:

 

[bcass8]

Jack,
I'm with you mate, every time I play Fifa with my mates I see different goals. I've been an avid PES fan and bought every game since ISS Pro on PS1 but this year its shite ! I bought it just to see for myself but have returned the game out of disgust. This patch was never going to work for me as it wouldn't have changed the gameplay or the fact that the goalies are awful. Don't get me started on the crossing !!

If EA just continue on their current path then PES will never catch up. EA needs to include weather, multi-player league system (so you can control every team if you so wish), enable us to edit everything including stadiums and giving us the option to choose stadiums before each game. Also I would like to see trophies when I win them ! If some of the above are included and response time is improved then I will never but another PES and that's something I never thought I'd say !!

Bazza

 

[jonboyo]

bugger, these quality programmers are easily upset!

 

[hangar18]

@ Winston:

Once again, I wholeheartedly agree with everything you've said. It seems that Konami, much like our now (thankfully) dethroned Prime Minister (John Howard), have lost touch with reality. Thats the trade-off sometimes with specialists living in ivory towers.

It is clear that Konami are not listening to huge sections of the fan base, which is fine - it their perogative to do so, as it is ours not to buy their "dated" offerings anymore. Someone said if they made changes they risk losing their fan base significantly. To my mind, not making any changes is a far riskier path to venture down as it will virtually guarantee a slow death of PES fans, sadly much to EA's benefit. My advice to them is jump before you are pushed.

If by the remotest of chances (*cough* LOL) anyone at Konami happens to be browsing this site, please communicate with your peers that we are now in the 21st century. The gaming environment has changed, so please try to make next step representative of the "evolution" your title implies.

In fact you might be better served just noting the world is not perceived to be flat anymore. Get yourself a history book and look up Christopher columbus. Next find a dictionary and look up evolution. Then and only then start planning the next PES.

Good luck.

 

[gerd]

bugger, these quality programmers are easily upset!

No they aren't...
It's not a crime to be ignorant. In fact all people are to a large degree ignorant.
It's not a crime to have an opinion while being ignorant...i do that all the time.
It is stupid to ignore somebody who wants to learn you something.
Amid all the bullshit on this forum and about PES2008, this was the one interesting thread because someone with inside knowledge gave us an insight how a game like PES is being made and how companies like Konami think and how team like Seabass' have to function...
Vanzandt never said that we don't have the right to criticize PES2008. He only explained why some things that we are asking for ages are less obvious than most of us think.
This was an interesting thread which is dead now, thank you very much to some of my fellow evo-web members.

 

[Nick Cave]

I can't see why this is a problem, it's all a matter of opinions. The only people who really know would be Seamonkey and Konami, in regards to the reason behind the stripping of options and features and the lack of development to off field areas. I still believe the creation of a fully editable league and cup structure is more than possible and as Winston pointed out, the guys on here do wonders in a short space of time so i can't except the idea it's too much work on Konami part. Vanzandt puts his opinions across very articulately and as Gerd says it is nice to have someone who obviously knows the business of games programming and production. Nobody should be flamed for having a difference of opinion but like wise a good argument over a difference of opinion is what forums are all about.. To be honest the Forum would be a far duller place without the likes of Vanzandt, Winston Gerd and JB, long may the battle continue...


by the way has anyone seen if sales have been hit due the problems with 08?