FIFA 11 Demo Issues...

[Nick Cave]

This will only be a short lived thread but I'm interested to know people's issues with what they have seen from the Demo, can we keep them brief (you can rant under the 1-5 points but it will be hard to tally if you go into 3 Paragraph answers ) and to 3 main points or 5 max...

The format as below and in order of importance too so I can tally them up into a final 10 at the most...


1.

2.

3.

4.

5.

 

[blanka797]

Bug in player celebration after he goes into the goal

 

[Steekbal]

1.
Opponent AI: never pass backwards, attempt silly skill moves in midfield, too predictable in attack but excellent defensively.

2.
Pressure abuse is still pretty much alive, midfield looks like a wrestling match, hopefully the new fatigue model goes some way in fixing this.

3.
Offside advantage seems almost non-existant.

----

That's about it for me, great effort by EA in my opinion.

 

[Nick Cave]

Cheers for that...

 

[winston]

Given the demo is against the cpu, my comments will largely relate to the cpu opponent, although I doubt I'll ever be playing 1-player once the full game is released.

1. cpu passing is almost 100% immaculate

2. cpu tackling is almost 100% immaculate

3. cpu first touch is almost 100% immaculate

4. cpu has ridiculous instant reactions, no momentum, no acceleration, just instant top speed from standing start, even if facing the wrong way to start with

5. all cpu players seem to be clones, with identical abilities, skills, etc

6. barge-fest nonsense

7. slowest game speed setting still too fast

8. no real freedom in ball, long balls almost always go to a man, usually a cpu guy who is scripted to run onto it and meet it perfecetly, with instant perfect control, etc, and don't have a long enough range (see PES11 for how true, free, manual long balls should work)

9. pin-pong passing is ubiquitous

10. this game has become some arcade knock around

 

[nerf]

1. Free the lob pass! Manual lob passes, both normal lob and the new driven lob, are WAY too assisted. They're always modified and sucked towards a player. Please don't do that so much if I've chosen to play Manual. I suspect there is a tiny amount of assistance on normal passes anyway, but an acceptable amount if so... but the lob passes are just not manual at all.

2. It's a bit too physical in midfield still. I'd be interested to see what the custom tactics are set to (unavailable in the demo), because there's a lot of aggressive tackling going on. I don't mean level of violence, I mean that they're over-eager to commit to a challenge at any opportunity, even when the ball is 50 yards from their goal.

3. I'm seeing some hints of P+, particularly in work rate (which I like), but overall I think the 'contrast' in the numbers needs to be more exaggerated for it to really feel effective. Probably by making the lower ratings worse, rather than the other way.

4. Legendary AI is not lethal enough in front of goal. I've seen some high quality strikers missing easy 1-on-1s (and I mean missing the target completely) more frequently than I'd expect. This is particularly disappointing because it's something that Aaron specified as an improvement in one of those talking-head videos.

5. AI penalties are broken, they miss tons. Most 'missed' penalties should be because of saves by the goalkeeper, but in FIFA they keep shanking them over the bar. Come to think of it, I don't think the AI has hit a free-kick on target against me either (which was the opposite in 10, when they'd score perfect free-kicks with excessive frequency).

6. The AI is quite unwilling to have a pop from outside the box. I have seen some but very few. I'd expect someone like Kallstrom or Lampard to pull the trigger more readily.

 

[Rodelero]

1. Pro Passing -

I think my views are .. probably more than well known on Pro Passing. The technical side is fine - it just needs to be tuned to be more in effect for ALL players even the best passers, more liable to occur on awkward angled passes, and much more in terms of directional error as opposed to just underhit error.

2. AI still has super human reaction

The way the AI dribbles and tackles is laughable. It seems to react immediately to any defensive movement you make - on Legendary, whilst Legendary isn't by any means unbeatable - it can do many things far, far too well.

I'm not a person who likes playing against AI, and this is one of the main reasons why at the moment

3. First touch - Players just generally are too good at it. There are a LOT more bad touches now but they are still a feature of the game where players with good control seem to have perfect control.

4. Assisted-Semi-Manual: What is there to say. Another shit year in regards to this issue

5. Max Passing Power too low - On manual a long grounded pass is very hard to make, and for some bizarre reason it's easier to try make a long pass with a good player than bad - it's understandable that they'd be more accurate but it seems to imply somehow Fabregas is a more powerful passer than say, Clichy, which is ludicrous.


If I had a 6, it would be pressure, but I'm not that sure about it til I play against humans for longer.

 

[YoungGun_UK]

I do think its a much better "Game" than 10, much harder to ping pong on assisted IMO (can be done though) and slight touch of individuality has made it a much better game but they haven't improved it at all from a footballing perspective.

 

[Placebo]

IMO it's superb and way better than 10, the improvements seem very significant to me both visually and gameplay wise and I cannot wait to start on my SWFC CM

 

[Nick Cave]

Cheers guys keep the issues coming as you find them...

 

[TikTikTikTikTik]

Coming from WC2010 I would say it's slightly better, but quite a step from 10. (although it's hard to remember)

1 - Pro Passing needs to be tweaked with regards to the passingrange vs power. Now it's a waste of time, as turning it off gives you far a better passing range and actually enables you to zip the ball around (not ping-pong stuff, but just to a normal nice speed). With it turned on just seems like a poorly implemented artificial way to handicap players that want to use it, as it offers no advantages whatsoever! And IMO actually makes the game play worse. They need to have a better range;
- underhitting means slower passes
- Hitting the marker means the passes have the zip which they do when turning the powerbar off
- Overhitting should mean more bounce and directional error but also the possiblity to play a ball into space (for example over hitting a pass so the first player can dummy and the second can run onto it)

2 - AI, still too much pressure, too accurate, too responsive, etc. I really don't understand why they think this is football! Fortunalty I can fix pressure with custom tactics, the rest however....

3 - 360 defense has quite a few poor aspects aswell. Players locking on is really annoying and looks shit. So far I can't really see the point of it. Shielding is good, but do they need the rest of it to make it work? Have seen the 07 "Bump" happen because of this and a player just blatently being held back because they are locked on, atleast give a foul if they do that.

4 - P+ needs to be ramped up. I can notice it, especially in top players like Messi and Iniesta, but the rest don't give me a reason to search them out.

5 - Can they atleast make sure players don't do tricks in their own f#$king half!?! It's really great to see Clichy do a Zidane roulette because Messi is near him........Haven't they got stats to determine which players are tricksters? I would think it's a basic element to have in the game, as seeing Hyppia do a roulette is even more annoying then Clichy. I'd rather see no tricks from players at all than this nonsense.

6 - Seeing as the demo has quiet a lot of bugs I fear the worst for CM!

 

[mfmaxpower]

It's noticeably better than 10 (I hated 10 though) while it's only a little better than the WC game (which I like). I must confess I came away from my play session yesterday feeling pretty good about it, though issues remain:

1. CPU is far too effective on defense - tackling, physicality, barging, shoving, murdering. It's insane.

2. CPU is far too ineffective at taking its chances in front of goal. I think it's actually better than before at creating chances but it tends to spurn its opportunities by either doing an unnecessary spin move, passing, dribbling away from goal, or shooting at the corner flag instead of goal.

3. Pro Passing (and to a lesser extent P+) is not evident with the CPU - passing accuracy is amazing, frequently finishing games with high 90 percent accuracy, even in games I dominate. This further leads to overly physical matches as changes in possession occur almost exclusively from tackles. Which leads me to...

4. Defending is WAY too easy/simple - getting the ball from dribblers, no matter the difficulty setting, is far too effective by either mashing tackle or teammate press buttons (in fact I believe defending/tackling is tougher in the WC game). Again, this leads to brutal ugly games because there is little risk rushing in for tackles.

5. Passing velocity is too slow, especially with manual controls - feels like passing on a muddy field; although manual through pass is effective for very short passes, neither manual ground pass is particularly effective at long passes. On a related note, the two manual ground passes are too similar - one should be for short and the other should be for longer ground passes.

**Some of these issues probably can't be fixed until next year but I really believe that with some tweaking FIFA 11 could be one hell of a game.

 

[daikirai]

1. Odd issue where after a goal, if i choose to watch the replay right away, before the game has loaded it's own replay the game bugs. It will show its own replay but it will show a random player from the opposing team (as if he was going to commit a foul) but he just walks around (reacting to the goal).

Game will hang at the end of this replay. An if i press start then go back to the game play will resume, but no players will be visible. I can still pass, shoot etc, but i can't see anyone, except for on the radar.

2. Midfield tackling could be toned down. I'm fine with the defensive side although it is somewhat of a cheap way to 'limit' the scoring etc

3. CPU never switches side of attack. They actually did this in 10, but now it's usually straight up the middle, with an occasional attack down the wing ONLY if the ball trickles that way, from a tackle or errant pass from my team. But they will never cross it to the opposite side.

Also along the same issue, players on the wing 'compress' far too much so that almost every player save for your left an right backs end up near the center of midfield.

4. Stamina still. I assume the stamina model is supposed to scale with half time, but i find too many players with a lot of stamina after the game. And it still seems too easy to sprint the length of the pitch.
It might be fine on longer halves, but currently its not.

 

[azur]

1. First touch - they improved it slightly adding a few new animations...but it's far away from reality.

2. Wrong Foot Issue - there's no diference at all...players dribble, shot and feint with both feet. Personality-.

3. Animations - there still are too many poor animations, long balls, shots, chip shots, etc.

4. Tackling - there is no skill or timing envolved...you just need to press X.

5. Speed - still too fast.

 

[nerf]

4. Stamina still. I assume the stamina model is supposed to scale with half time, but i find too many players with a lot of stamina after the game. And it still seems too easy to sprint the length of the pitch.
It might be fine on longer halves, but currently its not.

Can someone confirm if the stamina model is in the demo? For some reason I got the impression from somewhere that it didn't make it into the demo, but I could be completely dreaming. I hope this is not as far stamina goes!

 

[SPMC]

on World Class w/Bayer Leverkusen so far...

i hate it when i make a successful tackle, my player takes forever to get up, while the cpu player always recovers first and therefore regains possession. every time.

 

[Nick Cave]

Can someone confirm if the stamina model is in the demo? For some reason I got the impression from somewhere that it didn't make it into the demo, but I could be completely dreaming. I hope this is not as far stamina goes!

It is not in I think, I know they were having trouble with getting this in the final game let alone the demo...

 

[mfmaxpower]

It is not in I think, I know they were having trouble with getting this in the final game let alone the demo...

It's what I'm assuming too but it'd be good to have it confirmed (and confirmed whether it'll be in the final release!). It could - and probably should - change the game quite a bit.

 

[TikTikTikTikTik]

Another one,

AI teamplay, how about having some possesion! Now all they seem to do is attack, attack, attack.

 

[jeblo05]

1.) CPU team AI (attack only, no obvious differences between different teams) I want PES's gameplan feature, added with special plans when playing against stronger / weaker teams!

2.) same substitutions in every game. I'm expecting the AI to change tactics and subbing a DM for an attacking player when in front

3.) P+ is there, but should have even more impact (pushing the ball with right stick is working with every player) Stamina model? Weak teams should suffer when playing a laborious play (CPU and player controlled teams!)

4.) cinematics far behind PES ("real" camera angles and depth of focus/motion blur), so is the lighting / textures / faces.

5.) no "hard" ground passes are possible

I'm still enjoying the (far too short) demo. It's more or less what I've expected: FIFA 10 < FWC (10.5) < FIFA 11.

 

[Chelsea4ever]

1) Too many rabonas, if on the left wing with Malouda and go to cross with his left foot, it will a lot of the time do a rabona cross with his stronger right foot.

2) When the ref plays advantage, the length of time when it can be called back for the fk is too long.

3) Longer manual ground passes lack power.

4) Subs seem to be made at the same points, and the old stadium visual has been replaced by the player stats visual, which can get tiresome.

Other than that I think its an improvement on 10.

 

[TikTikTikTikTik]

Ai, Rabona's is another along with the tricks that makes me feel like I'm playing FIFA Street. It seems very much like a timing issue related to where the ball is in relation to the player. Had Malouda do one with his first cross, the rest were all normal. The Rabona should be trick related and not some "random" timing issue.

I hope it's true that the stamina model isn't in the game, as I tested it out with sprint being held in and double pressure always being applied. The only player that was in the red (just about after 87min) was a 3rd rate striker with a 50 rating for stamina! Was no difference from the previous games imo.

 

[Wilko22]

1) Too many "flash" animations, Rabonas etc.

2) Not enough weak foot inaccuracy - STILL! It's criminal that they still haven't added this attribute properly. It's basic stuff, even at the lowest levels playing Sunday league for example, one of the first questions your manager would ask is 'What is your preferred foot?'.

3) First touch needs to be a much more important attribute than it is.

4) CPU seems to struggle with scoring simple chances. Which means there is even less punishment for over-pressuring.

5) Movement of players is almost too free, I'm actually leaning towards the idea that their implementation of 360° dribbling in Fifa 10 has actually had a negative effect on the game as a whole.

I could list more, but everyone else already has

 

[TikTikTikTikTik]

Yeah I don't think 360 has really added much besides more "skating". I've always played with angles and having a few degrees here and there hasn't had an impact for me. Admittedly I'm a D-pad Dino so it was always going to be minimal for me, but I'm not sure it's such a big improvement for analog players either. 360 defending is another "improvement" I'm not sure about.

 

[winston]

The only player that was in the red (just about after 87min) was a 3rd rate striker with a 50 rating for stamina! Was no difference from the previous games imo.

But was he actually any different to control, any slower, more error-prone? Or just another visual gimmick - oh look, his bar has gone red - but actually doesn't mean a damn thing....just like all the player stats.

I wouldn't be surprised if the full stamina model is in the demo. Given the negligible effect of PP and P+, I'm not expeecting to notice any difference with a new stamina model implemented.

 

[mfmaxpower]

Yeah I don't think 360 has really added much besides more "skating". I've always played with angles and having a few degrees here and there hasn't had an impact for me. Admittedly I'm a D-pad Dino so it was always going to be minimal for me, but I'm not sure it's such a big improvement for analog players either. 360 defending is another "improvement" I'm not sure about.

360 dribbling was a MASSIVE improvement and aside from graphics is arguably the biggest evolution from the old to next gen. When looking back on this generation we will likely see the near total freedom brought to FIFA, and games in general, as revolutionary - it's like what sandbox games have done for the adventure/action genre. I'm not saying it's been implemented perfectly but IMO it has radically changed the experience, from the feel of the game to how you play. Not meaning to criticize but I have no idea on earth how you're still playing with the d-pad.

(I agree about 360 defending though - jury is still out on whether it's that big an improvement.)

 

[Steekbal]

One thing that's getting really annoying now is how the CPU just barge into you after kick off, not once do they actually pass the ball around, instead opting for a skill move when there are eleven opponents in front of him.

 

[mfmaxpower]

One thing that's getting really annoying now is how the CPU just barge into you after kick off, not once do they actually pass the ball around, instead opting for a skill move when there are eleven opponents in front of him.

Yeah those are all bothering me but the thing that's pissing me off the most is how overpowered tackling is - tackling is ridiculously easy! Basically from 10 yards away I can line my defender up with the dribbler, hold down the tackle button, and I'm almost guaranteed to get the ball or at least stop the dribbler. Teammate press/tackle is just as effective.

This is really unbalancing the game for me for two reasons 1) I'm amazing on defense but I still struggle to score; 2) the way changes of possession occur are skewed incorrectly toward tackling when IRL matches you'll notice a far higher frequency of turnovers occurring from passing errors and interceptions. The turns the game into a tackle fest.

Really hoping tackling and those that you mentioned are on the "tweak list" for the final release!

 

[TikTikTikTikTik]

But was he actually any different to control, any slower, more error-prone?

No idea, he didn't touch the ball again in the 3 min that were left.....

@ Max,
I just can't stand the loose feel of the stick when I think football should be about sharp precise movements. I played 07 and 08 with the stick but it always felt cumbersome. I still try it with every new game to see if it was just the slower response of those games, but I always feel slightly out of control with the stick.

Guess my reactions are a bit too slow, or my thumb is too lazy.

As for 360 dribbling; would you notice the different if it was 18dr, or 9dr, angles instead of 1dr angles (if that is the case anyway)? What I mean is that with the level of the transitions in the game I'm dubious "360" is needed and that maybe 32 directions (11.25dr) should be enough from a control perspective. I'm not talking about going back to 8/16 directions, but my ire with "360" is that it has introduced obvious skating in the game, whereas 07-09 had solid footplanting and made the players have weight and presence on the field. I'm not sure "360" is worth it when I would assume 32 directions would be more then enough with the transitions present and they could then have solid footplanting again. Also with the "zone" that players defend I really do think you need to move in big angles to not get "sucked" in to auto defensive animations anyway meaning the single degree angels offer nothing for dribbling.

For passing and shooting it's a great development. For movement I'm not sure, for the above reasons.

 

[mfmaxpower]

No idea, he didn't touch the ball again in the 3 min that were left.....

@ Max,
I just can't stand the loose feel of the stick when I think football should be about sharp precise movements. I played 07 and 08 with the stick but it always felt cumbersome. I still try it with every new game to see if it was just the slower response of those games, but I always feel slightly out of control with the stick.

Guess my reactions are a bit too slow, or my thumb is too lazy.

I doubt it's a problem with your reactions - I sometimes feel as if control is a bit loose, and not as precise and responsive as I'd like. I honestly don't know why that is, but, for example, last night I had a frustrating run with the demo, in which I seemed to always be a second too slow.

So I know where you're coming from, but also there's a difference between the two analog sticks of the ps3 and xbox - I find that the ps3 stick is more precise than the xbox, but that can work both ways. On one hand that extra precision can really pay off at times but it also means you can more easily miss by miles because there's less forgiveness. If the ps3 controller was bigger I'd probably prefer it over xbox. Anyways, if you've only tried one and not the other - and if you have the luxury of being able to do so - you should give the other a try.

As for 360 dribbling; would you notice the different if it was 18dr, or 9dr, angles instead of 1dr angles (if that is the case anyway)? What I mean is that with the level of the transitions in the game I'm dubious "360" is needed and that maybe 32 directions (11.25dr) should be enough from a control perspective. I'm not talking about going back to 8/16 directions, but my ire with "360" is that it has introduced obvious skating in the game, whereas 07-09 had solid footplanting and made the players have weight and presence on the field. I'm not sure "360" is worth it when I would assume 32 directions would be more then enough with the transitions present and they could then have solid footplanting again. Also with the "zone" that players defend I really do think you need to move in big angles to not get "sucked" in to auto defensive animations anyway meaning the single degree angels offer nothing for dribbling.

For passing and shooting it's a great development. For movement I'm not sure, for the above reasons.

Again, I have little doubt there's room for improvement in implementing 360 movement, but I believe those on the "other" side of the forums that suggest the added fluidity causes issues with angles and inertia that can't be overcome are a bit backwards. As I'm no expert I don't mean to imply I am certain this to be true, but as I have yet to hear a solid explanation for why 360 movement causes more problems than it solves, I find it a tad silly to just assume it's part of the problem and not the solution - meaning why can't we have solid footplanting, "weight and presence", proper inertia, etc. AND realistic and natural movement?

I think that because neither game has perfected the mix yet between 360 movement and control, and footplanting, weighting, inertia etc., what you mentioned - whether or not "360 is needed and that maybe 32 directions (11.25dr) should be enough from a control perspective" - is the crux of the issue. For some people, the answer is yes, 32 directions does provide enough control to be effective while it also allows for/makes it easier to implement other elements like footplanting and inertia. Other people, myself included, find the more restricted and less fluid movement in PES to be unnatural and unrealistic, and can be frustrating. As much as I loved FIFA 08 I used to get so frustrated when playing manual controls that I couldn't make a pass because the angle wasn't available to me. PES is far more 360 than FIFA 08, no comparison, but it's that similar type of frustration. So in my opinion I think neither is necessarily better at the moment - both are imperfect - and it all comes down to what your preferences and priorities are, and what shortcomings you're willing to overlook.

What really bothers me is the argument you find some people make that PES's movement system is perfect because it provides the right mixture of movement and angles, but yet they never seem willing to explain why more freedom of movement would eliminate those angles and be a bad thing. Last time I checked, more freedom of movement equals more angles. Also last time I checked, IRL movement is 360 and options in passing/shooting angles are endless when you combine all the different combinations of vertical, horizontal, spin, velocity, etc. Why is trying to mimic real life options a bad thing?

Again, I'll admit that I'm no expert and there very well could be a flaw in this argument - in fact, geometry was my worst math subject! Still, the ONLY response I hear from those defending PES' system is to point the finger at FIFA, as if because FIFA has yet to get the formula right is proof in itself 360 movement can't be combined with inertia, footplanting, etc. That's faulty logic.

Typically the truth lies somewhere in the middle when you have two extreme points of view. Despite what many of the loyalists of each game suggest, neither PES' or FIFA's movement system is perfect, nor terrible. Both systems are passable - this isn't 09 when FIFA went 360 and PES looked simply archaic in comparison - so like I said before, until the next major evolution comes it all boils down to your own preferences. Personally, I'm really trying to become acclimated with PES after playing FIFA these last few years, because after being a PES fanboy back in the day I appreciate and love so much of what it gets right, but I'll admit I'm struggling at the moment, finding the game at times and in certain areas a bit frustrating, unnatural, and sometimes jarring to the senses. It's a mixture of joy and frustration... but then again so is FIFA!

Back to your question about 360 movement in FIFA, I still think it's a great addition to the franchise and can't imagine having less - just like back in the day I could never have imagined going back from 8 to 4 directions. Until I see a valid argument that 360 movement and proper inertia, angles, footplanting, weighting etc. are mutually exclusive, I can't see any way forward other than trying to evolve the system so it properly combines all these properties.