European football: the end of English hegemony ?

[gerd]

First of all, this thread is for a good discussion and not to cause aggro.
Seeing the outcome of the group stage of the CL one can ask himself if this is the first sign of a shift in power towards the east. Since roughly 10 years English clubs are dominating European football. Is this the beginning of the end?

Of course there is a big possibility that this was a logical accident: Man Utd a club that needs rebuilding, Man City a club that lacks CL experience. But on the other hand in the EPL last season the big clubs lost lots of points. A club like Spurs seems a big contender this season, but is this because Spurs are getting better or because the biog clubs aren't as good as five years ago?

On the other hand i see two Russian clubs progressing to the knock-out stages, i see players like Eto'o and Criscito go to Russia. Personally i'm convinced since quite a few years that Russian clubs will dominate the CL in the years to come (albeit that i thought this would take more time).

I also know that clubs like Barcelona, Real Madrid and Bayern Munchen are probably the real favourites of this CL, but are we seeing the beginning of a shift of power?

Please discuss.

PS: to be crystal clear: i'm not especially happy that English clubs have a less brilliant CL this year. What i do like a lot is the fact that clubs like Apoel and Basel could qualify for the knock-out stage.

Edit: originally i forgot a question mark in the title of this thread, this makes a huge difference. i wasn't stating anything, i was just asking myself.

 

[cfdh_edmundo]

Re: European football: the end of English hegemony

It's hard to say, but I think it's more of a blip. It's worth noting that 2 of the 4 Spanish teams also got eliminated and the Spanish teams (outside of the top two) often struggle to get to the quarter finals. Yes, three Italian teams made it through, which is very good for Serie A, but an Italian team was eliminated in the playoffs (Udinese), as was a Russian team (Rubin). All of the big leagues have lost at least one team (either in group stage or playoffs). Germany lost Dortmund, France lost Lille, Spain lost Valencia and Villaroyal, Italy Udinese.

What I would say Man City got 10 points in hard group, they finshed with more points than some other group winners (APOEL) but in having the hardest group in memory they were unlucky. Often there can be blips like this, for instance Shakthar, who looked very strong last year, finshed bottom of their group. A problem England has is the way it treats the Europa league. Some English managers especially Arry Redknapp and Martin O'Neill (when at Villa) treat the Europa league with absolute disdain, Redknapp apparently didn't even know which country his opponents were from. They regularly go out of it early and this does impact on the UEFA rankings for the CL. For instance Romanian and to a lesser extent Portuguese teams were able to boost their UEFA ranking by doing well in the UEFA Cup/Europa League and then this helped them gain more places (and also direct group stage access), England just doesnt have this boosting option as the teams hate the Europa League.

 

[PLF]

Re: European football: the end of English hegemony

Good posts by both of you and I tend to agree with both.

Edmundo is particularly spot on about Man City in this case. Napoli and Bayern at the end deserved it more and I'm glad have reached the next stage but it is true that was City in almost any other group, they would've qualified and maybe even won the group, wouldn't they have? Man Utd doesn't have that excuse of course.

In regards to Europa league, what Edmundo said except Italian teams care for it EVEN less. And Spanish do care for it quite a bit I think because they also do very well in it. Just look at the past 5 years and the amount of semi-finalists that were Spanish! They often even played each other!

Although I will say that I think Man City (But not Man Utd) will take Europa league seriously this year. City's priorities were the league and CL of course, but just like last year where they fought hard for FA Cup, they will do the same again this year along with Europa league and the league (while the league is priority of course) because City are hungry for trophies, period! They need to and want to fill up their cabinets with lots of of trophies and despite what people like to say about Europa league, winning it does put you on the map even more and does bring your club more exposure/prestige than not doing it.

Even last year, City did take Europa League seriously. They just failed because they didn't play that well and that idiot Mario Balotelli who got sent off in an important 2nd leg. Otherwise they WANTED to do much better. Where as most Italian teams don't even care how they do and come with reserve teams.

In regards to the shift in power, I've alluded to this myself numerous times before. I think this year was more of a 'blip' Gerd but yeah overall, over the next decade and not too soon, I do see Russian teams getting strong and stronger, the Russian league getting better and better and more and more attractive players going there and as a result, slowly but surely, Eastern teams starting to do better and better in CL as well. I think it takes time though and this year was more of a blip but in 10 years and not 2 years, things can look a LOT different!

 

[Valon]

Re: European football: the end of English hegemony

personaly I think this year english teams FAIL on CL but i think its just "this" season , I think they'll back next year and are going to win or goes to finale

City have team "young" on CL and need experiense but I think next year they are going to go much more up

united need a totaly new team but same I think they'll lack also next year

Chelsea its bad this year I dont think they are going too far this year and they need rebuild too

arsenal same as always nothing new just more weak this year

personaly I think CL miss Liverpool a great team that always did problems to big clubs , I think team like Liverpool this year can even beat Barca or Real Madrid we all know how they play vs big teams and on CL

I hope next year to see Liverpool on CL even if look hard but this surely will do much better than other english teams

 

[Dazzlà]

Re: European football: the end of English hegemony

na, i dont see it happening... power to the east? lol because some of the teams in russia got some rich owners? zenit and cska hardly dominated there group..

 

[we7god]

Re: European football: the end of English hegemony

City have team "young" on CL and need experiense but I think next year they are going to go much more up

kompany, kolo toure, bridge, clichy, hargreaves, de jong, yaya toure, nasri, silva, aguero and tevez are experienced in CL. all of them have played at least 20 games in CL.
even if city is "new" to CL, there is a lot of international experience.
they were just unlucky to play in the hardest of all 8 groups.
in 6 of 8 groups 10 points are enough to proceed into knockout stage...
i think they will get some points in EL aswell and next year they will come back, play in an easier group and enter knockout-stage in CL...

 

[Milanista]

I agree with we7god. I think the 'lack of experience' argument is an excuse for City. With a manager that's been in CL for at least 3 years and a team built from CL experienced players, the team should be doing much better.

 

[gerd]

if i'm not mistaken Mancini has a very poor record (as a manager) in the CL. Could be a coîncidence of course..

 

[Aboutreika18]

And didn't Figo refuse to come on as a substitute against Liverpool a few seasons back?

It seems to me like it's not a coincidence history is repeating itself for Mancini.

 

[Valon]

Re: European football: the end of English hegemony

kompany, kolo toure, bridge, clichy, hargreaves, de jong, yaya toure, nasri, silva, aguero and tevez are experienced in CL. all of them have played at least 20 games in CL.
even if city is "new" to CL, there is a lot of international experience.
they were just unlucky to play in the hardest of all 8 groups.
in 6 of 8 groups 10 points are enough to proceed into knockout stage...
i think they will get some points in EL aswell and next year they will come back, play in an easier group and enter knockout-stage in CL...

"young" new together I mean for one experiense together

however I think next year they'll do much better

 

[matherto]

I hope it is in all honesty.

As much as I love the fact we got to three finals in four years it was almost too easy to do it and took away from the magic of the competition.

Similarly knowing that all the English teams would usually be in the quarters/semis/final made the European Cup a lot less European.

I'm absolutely gutted that United are out but at least now I can sit back and watch some quality football between massive European clubs, the magic might come back.

 

[gerd]

I hope it is in all honesty.

As much as I love the fact we got to three finals in four years it was almost too easy to do it and took away from the magic of the competition.

Similarly knowing that all the English teams would usually be in the quarters/semis/final made the European Cup a lot less European.

I'm absolutely gutted that United are out but at least now I can sit back and watch some quality football between massive European clubs, the magic might come back.

That is a very good post, i can strongly relate to those feelings. That is one of the reasons i stopped supporting huge teams...i can enjoy the beauty of (for example) the football of Barcelona, but if the same teams always are the main contenders the magic goes away...that is the reason i (almost) always support the underdog team...

 

[fd1972uk]

Not sure if it's just a one-off, but I do think they have seriously under-estimated teams, especially SAF with Basle.

I think it's a combination of underestimation and also team quality reducing in EPL for me.

Personally I think Real and Barca are a good bit ahead of any other team out there.


FD

 

[PLF]

Real and Barca in category of their own.

Then Bayern are 3rd favourite for me.

Below them are teams like Milan, Chelsea, Arsenal.

And then all others have pretty much equal chance I think.

This is about this CL.

 

[gerd]

Bayern can also win it...

 

[PLF]

Yep hence 3rd favourites for me.

 

[cfdh_edmundo]

I would put Bayern as strong as Barca and Real. In Robben and Ribery they have two of the best out and out wingers in European football. Thomas Müller is one of the most exciting young players in the world and was the best European at the last World Cup, if he was Catalan the whole world would be creaming themselves over him. I've never really been convinced by Mario Gomes when I've seen him play but his CL record, this season especially, is very good and scoring against Man City and Napoli is like scoring against semi final standard teams. Schweinstiger is a big loss but other players can come in and the system can be remodelled to minimise this, he might yet feature in latter rounds as well.

In Neuer they have a keeper as strong as Cassillas and these two are probably the best keepers in the tournament, with Szezechny a close third (all he is missing is more experience and maybe a better back line in front of him) then there is a big gap for the others, although De Scantis is good on his day. People often think goalkeepers are not important but having someone like Neuer or Cassillas can mean the difference between winning 1-0 or losing 2-1. I think the golden carrot of playing the final in their home stadium will also motivate them even more than normal.

If there is a weakness it might be at the central defence, but none of the teams in the CL are that convincing there and the plus about players like Van Buyten is although they are not totally world class defenders, they are big burly physical players who offer an attacking threat from free kicks.

 

[gerd]

I also see Bayern as big favourites as both Spanish club although in Van Buyten they have (definsively) a weak point. It's true that Van Buyten scores lots of goals in standard situations (free kicks and corners).

Yesterday i heard about a conspiracy theory about Bayern and the CL. I don't buy it, but it's too good not to mention it. It seems the draw for the knock-out stages was done by Paul Breitner and it German media (or some German media) claim that Breitner knew all too well how he could arrange to let Bayern play against Basel.
The conspiracy theory goes even further because due to the Sion business and the conflict between FIFA and the Swiss FA about Sion it is possible (although not likely) that Basel will not be able to play against Bayern. I'm not sure what would happen if Basel cannot continue to play in the CL...will Bayern go through without playing or will Man Utd replace them (which would be a serious blow for Bayern and which is the weak point in the conspiracy theories).

 

[cfdh_edmundo]

The thing is Bayern had a "limited" draw anyway, they could not get Napoli, who they already played, and they could not get Leverkusen who are also from Germany. So they had around a 1-in-6 chance of getting Basel (or Milan, Marseilles, Zenit, Lyons, CSKA). To be honest I think while Bayern should be Basle it's not perhaps the easiest opposition they could have faced. I think if Bayern were looking for a very easy draw they would have wanted Lyons. Basel will be functional and hard to break down, the will have a degree of threat on the counter-attack, Lyon aren't really a threat at all - they didn't score a single goal against Ajax or Real Madrid. If Bayern faced them Van Buyten should take a copy of Kicker (German football magazine) or an iPod onto the pitch otherwise he will be bored for 90 mins as he will have nothing much to do.

 

[Rentalkid]

I also see Bayern as big favourites as both Spanish club although in Van Buyten they have (definsively) a weak point. It's true that Van Buyten scores lots of goals in standard situations (free kicks and corners).

Yesterday i heard about a conspiracy theory about Bayern and the CL. I don't buy it, but it's too good not to mention it. It seems the draw for the knock-out stages was done by Paul Breitner and it German media (or some German media) claim that Breitner knew all too well how he could arrange to let Bayern play against Basel.
The conspiracy theory goes even further because due to the Sion business and the conflict between FIFA and the Swiss FA about Sion it is possible (although not likely) that Basel will not be able to play against Bayern. I'm not sure what would happen if Basel cannot continue to play in the CL...will Bayern go through without playing or will Man Utd replace them (which would be a serious blow for Bayern and which is the weak point in the conspiracy theories).

Where did you hear that? O_O
The "weak point" of this conspiracy theory is its existence.

 

[gerd]

I heard that on Football Weekly, the Guardian's excellent football podcast. It was confirmed by a German journalist (Raphael Honingstein).

I don't believe this at all, but it is a good story.

 

[drekkard]

The only conspirational theory that has been ever proven is that of the cold and warm balls in the draws of the first 5-10 European Cups. A warm ball would mean a strong team and a cold one a weak team. That's why in the first European cups there was hardly a tough round until you get to semifinals.

After all, they could be doing the same. Temperature is not "seen" by TV and audience, but somehow it doesn't holdup well. Too many people involved and at the end it would leak to the public. Besides, Bayern was much better than any team from the 2 group in that draw.

After all, they still have to play. Why can't Basel put Bayern in danger? It's hardly possible, maybe a chance in a million, but who knows?

Getting on topic, I think english football is very exciting and fun to watch, but it's very overrated. There's a lot of good teams in the upper side of the table, but I don't see much difference between the Premier and the Serie A, now that I can watch both every week. Probably the top teams are better, but a middle table team from Serie A could easily win any middle table team in the Premier.

So, what really makes the Premier a bit edgy above the rest is the money that flooded City and Chelsea. So, in terms of leagues, maybe the Premier is the most competitive one, but in terms of teams, there are the 2 big spanish clubs on the top (don't need to mention the order, right?) and after them, it comes a lot of clubs that are quite level fro many leagues.

Now, what is a certainty is that the English football is the main market. Go everywhere in the world and people follow the Premier. They did a great great job of marketing the product worldwide. That's why I found english team shirts everywhere in Tanzania, Kenia or Vietnam. Only Barcleona have a similar ammount of popularity worldwide. So, even if in terms of football things are more leveled than what many English may think, in terms of business the English football is, by large, the number 1. It's all about the money...

 

[Ronaldinho_23]

2009 - barcelona
2010 - inter
2011 - barcelona

what hegemony?

 

[Jamezinho]

I hope it is in all honesty.

Similarly knowing that all the English teams would usually be in the quarters/semis/final made the European Cup a lot less European.

My feelings as well.

It's not healthy for European football when one or two nations dominate the Champions League. I hated it when three English clubs made the last four. All that shows is that the Premier League is the richest league in Europe. Similarly, it wasn't great when we had Real Madrid v Valencia and Milan v Juve Finals.

The changes that Platini's made to European football have been for the better in my opinion. Apoel Nicosia and Basel in the last sixteen is great to see, but generally seeing clubs from the smaller nations getting to the group stages like we have these past few years will add more value to the competition.

Having said that, I long for the days of the old European Cup when it was a straight knock-out tournament. I find the Champions League group stages incredibly dull with too many inconsequential matches. The randomness and play to win approach of knock-out football is what made the old European Cup special. Also, the Champions League money has ruined football in my opinion, making the rich richer and keeping the elite clubs in their place. Will we ever see the likes of Steaua Bucharest, Red Star Belgrade and Celtic win the Champions League as they did the European Cup?

 

[cfdh_edmundo]

2009 - barcelona
2010 - inter
2011 - barcelona

what hegemony?

I guess it was before you were born.

2004-5 2 English in Semi, 1 in Final
2005-6 1 English in Semi, 1 in Final
2006-7 3 English in Semi, 1 in Final
2007-8 3 English in Semi, 2 in Final*
2008-9 3 English in Semi, 1 in Final
2009-10 0 English in Semi, 0 in Final
2010-11 1 English in Semi, 1 in Final

In that time four English teams have got to a final (Liverpool twice, Man Utd three times, Chelsea and Arsenal)

* - this year all English teams were only knocked out by other English teams.

 

[Ronaldinho_23]

I guess it was before you were born.

2004-5 2 English in Semi, 1 in Final
2005-6 1 English in Semi, 1 in Final
2006-7 3 English in Semi, 1 in Final
2007-8 3 English in Semi, 2 in Final*
2008-9 3 English in Semi, 1 in Final
2009-10 0 English in Semi, 0 in Final
2010-11 1 English in Semi, 1 in Final

In that time four English teams have got to a final (Liverpool twice, Man Utd three times, Chelsea and Arsenal)

* - this year all English teams were only knocked out by other English teams.

yes..more teams..but champions??


05 - liverpool
06 - barcelona
07 - milan
08 - manchester
09 - barcelona
10 - inter
11 - barcelona

i watch a barcelona hegemony...

england have a stronger teams (chelsea.arsenal..manu..)..but no champions..
in the last 10 years

Spain : 4 champions league
Italy: 3 champions league
England 2 champions league
Portugal: 1 champions league

I don't know why england's teams win only 2 champions with all this teams in semis and finals..


the only team favorite is manchester united, the best team with barça,bayern and RM, but this year is unlucky...more year in semis and finals....I love this team..

 

[gerd]

It's not only about the winners....
Feel exactly the same as jamezinho.
I too would like teams like Steaua, Red Star and Celtic to win. Nowadays it seems impossible that a giant club like Ajax can win it...this is sad.


I know i've said this very often, but if Platini does not succeed then within 10 years only clubs like Anzhi and Grozny will winn the CL. That is not what football need.

 

[Ronaldinho_23]

It's not only about the winners....
Feel exactly the same as jamezinho.
I too would like teams like Steaua, Red Star and Celtic to win. Nowadays it seems impossible that a giant club like Ajax can win it...this is sad.


I know i've said this very often, but if Platini does not succeed then within 10 years only clubs like Anzhi and Grozny will winn the CL. That is not what football need.

in modern football, this teams never wil can win the CL.
this is from 1993, no is new...

only the great ajax of 1994 broken this rule..

of course..in 2003 the football was a total crazy, and the final was porto-monaco..


Anzhi never will win a CL.

money, no is football.


sorry for my english

 

[Jamezinho]

in modern football, this teams never wil can win the CL.
this is from 1993, no is new...

only the great ajax of 1994 broken this rule..

The Champions League has only served to make the traditionally big European clubs richer and more elite in their own domestic leagues. It's not been healthy at all for the European game in the broader sense. It's realistically only a team from England, Spain, Italy and maybe Germany that can win the tournament these days.

When did the Champions League start? 1992. In twenty years we've only seen two teams from smaller countries win the tournament. It's rare that a team outside the big three or four leagues even gets near a final.

Which is exactly the point I made in my previous post. Thanks for confirming it.

 

[Ronaldinho_23]

The Champions League has only served to make the traditionally big European clubs richer and more elite in their own domestic leagues. It's not been healthy at all for the European game in the broader sense. It's realistically only a team from England, Spain, Italy and maybe Germany that can win the tournament these days.

When did the Champions League start? 1992. In twenty years we've only seen two teams from smaller countries win the tournament. It's rare that a team outside the big three or four leagues even gets near a final.

Which is exactly the point I made in my previous post. Thanks for confirming it.

well..but we talk about CL, the most big tournament of clubs...no is easy win for smallest teams...

in national world cup...What you think that greece or sweeden win ??

In my opinion , in CL only should go to play 2 teams for country...