Do You Think The Level Of Pro Passing Error Is Enough?

Public poll: Do you think the Pro Passing in FIFA 11 looks like it is ENOUGH?

  • YES IT'S FINE: I have played FIFA 11 and can prove it.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • YES IT LOOKS FINE: I have not played FIFA 11 but it looks fine.

    Votes: 1 2.4%

  • NO IT'S NOT ENOUGH: I played it and it needs more error to be realistic and/or fix pingpong passing.

    Votes: 8 19.5%

  • IT'S NOT ENOUGH: I've seen the videos and it doesn't look like there's enough error.

    Votes: 23 56.1%

  • I'M A WAIT AND SEE: I want to vote but don't know what to vote for.

    Votes: 9 22.0%
  • Total voters
    41
  • Poll closed .
romagnoli

romagnoli

Misses Retri
7 August 2004
Right, doing over Rod's poll as the thread title and poll question differed.

Also including an 'I don't know' option. Please note that when I tally things up I'll halve votes where people haven't explained why they think so. Only has to be a sentence.
 
I'll vote when I've played the demo. I think it doesn't have enough by the looks of it, and I'm pretty sure it won't have enough when I play it, but then I can vote for "no, having it played it" option which I think will be a far more valid vote when presenting it to EA.
 
I voted option #4.

The user element doesn't even look like it exists, with people who are playing the game for the first time not overhitting/underhitting passes so that they are difficult for the recipient.

The contextual element is evidently lacking too, proven by the fact that there are still plenty of first time 180 degree turn passes straight to the feet of the target...
 
Voted 3 and wanna add that it is just directional error that was missing. The speed/miss timing of the pass was good enough.
 
IT'S NOT ENOUGH: I've seen the videos and it doesn't look like there's enough error.

Looks non existent from the videos I've seen, even world class player misplace passes a foot or two either side of their recipient and then you see the receiving player have to adjust his bodyshape or alter his run to receive the ball properly, you never see this in Fifa, so to me it shows that control is too good and passes are too accurate.
 
"IT'S NOT ENOUGH: I've seen the videos and it doesn't look like there's enough error."

The penalty for badly weighting a pass appears to be insignificant, and passes remain pixel accurate.
 
I've asked for the other one to be locked - definitely better way of doing it here. So my vote doesn't get halved ;):

For me it's the fact that still, by tapping A/X for any particular pass it will still produce a perfectly good pass, and the fact that you can still pull of the horrid 110+ degree passes without any difficulty. Far too much error is translated as bobble/slowness rather than directional error.
 
Voted 4, but I think the instant control of the player receiving the pass is the bigger issue.
 
I think it's debatable whether it really is a bigger issue personally, but, I understand what you mean. The reason I chose Pro Passing to go for is because I think the community at large will be more amenable to it. There are clearly quite a few things wrong with FIFA 11, if we're going to persuade EA to work through them with the livepatching system, one by one seems to be the best way about it. If it does succeed then it will be much easier to succeed with the next thing on our mentalised lists.
 
IT'S NOT ENOUGH: I've seen the videos and it doesn't look like there's enough error.

Biggest disappointment, having not played it, is lack of variety in directional error; contextual error in general isn't realistic enough (too many perfect passes under difficult circumstances); power gauge appears way too forgiving!

I wish we had the option to change our votes though, cause I hate jumping to conclusions before I've given the game some serious play time. Still, I'd rather err on the side of caution. Also, I think we're being a little premature without having seen lesser sides play, though I suppose EA could always tweak the range of error between, say, a 2* and a 5* team, yes/no?

Also, I agree with whoever said first touch is just as big if not a bigger issue, but I guess we can debate the effectiveness of next year's "Pro Touch" feature when the time comes.
 
We can have another poll in 9 days or so - we just want to take a sample now and then see if things change when the demo's out.
 
mfmaxpower said:
IT'S NOT ENOUGH: I've seen the videos and it doesn't look like there's enough error.

Biggest disappointment, having not played it, is lack of variety in directional error; contextual error in general isn't realistic enough (too many perfect passes under difficult circumstances); power gauge appears way too forgiving!

I wish we had the option to change our votes though, cause I hate jumping to conclusions before I've given the game some serious play time. Still, I'd rather err on the side of caution. Also, I think we're being a little premature without having seen lesser sides play, though I suppose EA could always tweak the range of error between, say, a 2* and a 5* team, yes/no?
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Unfortunately, if it's wrong for 5* teams, it's wrong - and for me it's clearly wrong with 4-5* teams. For online in particular, it's almost irrelevant what it's like for anything but 4.5 and 5* teams.

I absolutely understand not wanting to say before playing - which is why the voting is split to show whether people have/haven't played it yet. I plan to be using this (and all the other stuff I've compiled with the help of Romagnoli) relatively soon to try and get this ball rolling as quickly as possible and before the offishit forums are overrun by the utter idiots who will no doubt rejoin the forums. The official forums are being moved soon so that's another complication to deal with - but that should be happening any hour/day now.
 
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Rodelero said:
Unfortunately, if it's wrong for 5* teams, it's wrong - and for me it's clearly wrong with 4-5* teams. For online in particular, it's almost irrelevant what it's like for anything but 4.5 and 5* teams.
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True, true. I'm just trying to think of how PP in its current form would be defensible.

I wonder, has anyone taken notice of passing accuracy stats at the end of games in the demo?

You'd think this would be pretty simple for EA: look at passing accuracy averages after playing X amount of games with FIFA 11, compare them to averages from FIFA 10/WC game, compare with real world numbers, and adjust accordingly.

Judging PP with my eyes is one thing, but I'd like to see some numbers. Seems like easy solution to me, no?
 
IT'S NOT ENOUGH: I've seen the videos and it doesn't look like there's enough error.

Hopefully playing the damn thing will make me change my mind but from the vids I've seen 5* teams still seem to play ping pong passing.
 
Voted the last option...

My understanding of ProPassing is that it's intended to simulate unpredictability in first touches or players attempting a difficult pass under pressure. EA told us that even the highest-rated player will exhibit passing inaccuracies to some degree, but regardless of which footballer you control, the game ultimately determines where each pass will go. And therelies the conundrum imho: how much is the feature's inherent lack of control really necessary for the majority of gamers who, need we be reminded again, are casual FIFA fans. The same bunch who sits down with the game in their free time, can't be bothered to switch out of full assists, and thus expect precision where it mattered in their passing game (power + aiming). To me this is no different than having someone switching on all assists in a racing game only to find himself facing the apex during bits of a turn.

Which then begs the other question, how much is ProPassing actually contributing to the presentation rather than the gameplay itself? Those two factors are not necessarily mutually exclusive because ProPassing's randomness also has its roots in gameplay but you can't deny its distinct purpose of creating a better looking football at the expense of some control. The challenge, as it has always been, is trying to accommodate both the nuances and broad strokes of football into a much shorter match length. For example, players who are generally fast in real life display that same agility throughout a match when you control him in the game. But the first touch accuracy of a Division 1 defender when he's free of any immediate threat is left at the mercy of some random algorithm to showcase his relative lack of skills, even though the reality is that he would rarely fuck it up given the same situation?

You could probably leave ProPassing out for assisted players aka the average gamer but then what about us hardcore lot? As it is, the game's manual passing system already does a better job at replicating pressure-sensitive contextual error imho (though it could probably do with some tweaking). The accurate nature of that control method means there's a tendency for you to point your direction stick ever-so-slightly off after stringing a couple of passes under proximity pressure by the opponents, therefore eventually missing your target by a few degrees. But if we do want a system that's more reflective of the player's skill but with some measure of control, they could implement an underlying passing range that's required of you to make an accurate pass with every player. Lower rated players have a tighter range facing out into your passing target, therefore it requires you to be more precise with where you aim your pass (or risk having it go astray if your aim falls out of that already small range). This is the best compromise between player stats and user control that I can think of but I'd wager you guys are probably more comfortable with the random factor of ProPassing just being more obvious.

Edit: in hindsight, I probably should have dump this in the FIFA11/12/13 thread but since it's the topic Du'jour....
 
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ant0n, did you play this? I don't remember reading any impressions from you. Can you post a link to them please just so I don't have to discount your vote?

If you have then great. If you haven't played it then you'd be undermining what we're trying to do. Which wouldn't be the first time :)
 
romagnoli said:
ant0n, did you play this? I don't remember reading any impressions from you. Can you post a link to them please just so I don't have to discount your vote?

If you have then great. If you haven't played it then you'd be undermining what we're trying to do. Which wouldn't be the first time :)
Click to expand...

Let's see I can get a 180 degree pass to be accurate.

On assisted I can one touch my way up the field because all that is going on is a little bobble that is 1. Unrealistic because a player that miss-hits a pass doesn't always cause the ball to bobble, he sometimes scuffs it so bad that it goes out into the front row. And 2. Unrealistic because it is easily controlled by ANY player.

Then there is this thing called weighing a pass that is nonexistent.

So technically all that was added for this game is a little bobble with no inaccuracy. Not exactly living up to the name PRO Passing. Quit lying to the sim crowd by coming up with "features" that are credited to us, but in the end are nothing like we suggested.

Do you want a "thinking man's game" or not? You cannot have both because even with sliders in 12 you are essentially developing two different games. You are already in my opinion not improving the game enough in one year cycles. Adding sliders won't change that. It probably would make it worse because now you are trying to please two different people. Do you have the resources to do it? Fuck yeah you do.
You are the United States of gaming for crying out loud. But will you? Tell us now before we go through ANOTHER year of pleading our case just to be taken for a ride again. This is especially for people like Xaor awho spend ages developing ideas to improve your game. I play FIFA because I like clubs. It has only been about clubs for me for about 2 years because every other mode in the game has been dull. Now sooner or later Konami will get clubs with some good gameplay. Where will FIFA be? You all had a great head start now you guys are just letting it wilt away. You guys started the generation with simulation in mind now you ate back to your old tricks of gimmicks and more gimmicks.

I made a thread stating PRO passing is a gimmick. I still think it is because you are still afraid of losing the casual fan that plays the game everyday. You are afraid of the game being a challenge.


Did I undermine you enough there? :COOL:

Will edit this later. On my phone.
 
He's not arguing that Pro Passing is well implemented... He's saying that that you voted saying you'd played the game when you havn't...
 
Yeah, that's what I voted. It's a public poll so you can see what everyone voted (and, in some cases, whether they can click a box and press a button without getting it horribly wrong). The first touch definitely adds to it, no idea where whatever were talking about adding has gone. I guess the main point with this is that Pro Passing was one of THE big features they were looking to add and yet it's so watered down you have to measure it in parts per million.
 
NO IT'S NOT ENOUGH: I played it and it needs more error to be realistic and/or fix pingpong passing.

Have to be honest, i don't think ping pong is 100% dead just yet.
 
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"IT'S NOT ENOUGH: I've seen the videos and it doesn't look like there's enough error."

Firstly the problem that I can see is the first touch, When Scholes/Xavi receive a pass they can sometimes not need one and hit a peach of a pass or when they do its a great one which sets them up for a pass, this is the reason Barcelona can pass so well as Iniesta, Xavi and Messi often have a immaculate touch or simply don't need one to move the ball on.

The User skill looks to comfortable from the videos, underhit overhit it doesnt seem to make much difference and the latter being a exploit, if theirs no touch and no change in direction of the pass then over hitting a pass constantly will lead to the same problems with Zidane-esque first touches and its extremely rare for players to pass without a touch unless their extremely good at it and can cause woeful passes in direction

No direction change is something that doesn't really need discussing just a watered down unrealistic thing to have.

Problem - FIFA everyone has the same first touch and often don't need one
Problem - Lack of User Skill Required
Problem - Passes don't go wonky when in most cases trying something very difficult can often go miles off
 
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romagnoli said:
(and, in some cases, whether they can click a box and press a button without getting it horribly wrong).
Click to expand...

I think some people just enjoy causing trouble, wink wink.


Nick Cave said:
The instant first touch for me makes it worse as it seems any ball near is controlled so only very off passes will go arwy!...
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romagnoli said:
The first touch definitely adds to it, no idea where whatever were talking about adding has gone.
Click to expand...

Yesterday I actually downloaded the PES 2010 demo 'cause I wanted to test a couple things, and when I switched back to the WC game, one of the things that stood out was how insanely perfect first touch is in FIFA. At one point I sent a powerful and long pass that reached one of my players at waist height as he was running up the middle of the pitch and he PERFECTLY controlled the ball without breaking stride. (*Edit: btw, this happened when playing as Ghana and it was a CDM that controlled the pass, and not Essien!)

PES is abysmal on the next gens but it still *gets* some of the most important fundamentals of the game like FIFA doesn't, sometimes in a way that brings a slight grin to the face.

First touch MUST be a priority next year!
 
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romagnoli said:
Yeah, that's what I voted. It's a public poll so you can see what everyone voted (and, in some cases, whether they can click a box and press a button without getting it horribly wrong). The first touch definitely adds to it, no idea where whatever were talking about adding has gone. I guess the main point with this is that Pro Passing was one of THE big features they were looking to add and yet it's so watered down you have to measure it in parts per million.
Click to expand...


Hahaha so it is I was on my shitty back up Lappy earlier I can't see jack all on that screen... :BLINK:
 
tm1985 said:
NO IT'S NOT ENOUGH: I played it and it needs more error to be realistic and/or fix pingpong passing.

Have to be honest, i don't think ping pong is 100% dead just yet.
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Cheers 'TM' ;)

Fully agree. I think EA are going to have to make those tweaks to combat pingpong; I just worry that they'll either make the already far too slow passes slower again. Surely it's plain to see that they need to make passes less controlled, not more.
 
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