Bad news for italy

[lo zio]

the very weird thing is that we had to wait someone to die, before even thinking of applying Pisanu act the way it should be..

it's so ridicolous!

u're right mate, it's ridicolous, but often revolutions born from tragedies

Could be a good thing to try yeah. From what I have heard, the Italian police are pretty lazy. They stand around waiting for trouble. Then when it kicks off they charge in with batons hitting anybody they see. They should single out the bad individuals before the fighting has a chance to develop. Then a lot of innocent people caught up in the event could avoid the violence. This is what they do in England.

well mate, what u heard is true. actually that's exactly what usually happens. but i wouldn't say it's because they're lazy. it's more about preparation. i mean, controlling a stadium is a very hard test for the police. u have to be cool, well prepared, focused on what happens in the ends, and, most important, u have always to know what to do in every circumstances; cos when "shit happens" u haven't the time to think what to do, u have to react immediately. if u're not prepared, if u're not confident, some thugs will see your pain, your confusion, and will take advantage of it (and when u're scared u may even start hitting anybody u see, wich is extremely dangerous, coz it increase ultras anger against the police)

i'd say our police is quite unprepared. that's why Marukomu idea sounds great to me. and in my opinion it won't even be so hard or expensive to do.

But there's even one other very big problem.
our criminal law is very advanced. sure one of the most advanced in the world. italian criminal law (like french criminal law) is mostly influenced bu illuministic principles, and that's great. Our criminal system provides some very important guarantees for the culprit (is culprit the right word? btw i mean those person who are waiting for a sentence).
this usually brings to a fair judgement. But it also opens the doors to the chance (for some kind of crimes) for the criminals to avoid the prison (if they never violated the law before). if i remember well, in common law systems this is known as "parole".
well, talking about ultras, that's a very big problem, as they usually manage to avoid prison..... well there's no need to say that repression is a very big factor if we really want to solve this problem.
we have to elaborate a specific procedural discipline for this kind of crimes, or theese thugs will start to feel like they're "unbeatable". we did it for trials against mafiosi, i guess we have to do it for ultras too.

just yesterday a policeman who was Filippo Raciti's friend, said that agent Raciti, just last week was witness in a trial against an ultras. well, Raciti said to his friend that that ultras left the court with not even a day of jail.... he said that, while he was leaving the court, that bastard was laughing at him

well, that's another problem we have to solve. a good law is important. a correct application of the law is even more important

 

[gomito#10]

Please find where I said it was COMMON for someone to die in Italian football? Also, stop calling for people to be banned when you don't understand or agree with someone else's OPINION!

"The World Cup win has blinded a lot of people when it comes to Italian football. It's full of cheating and murder and I hope it NEVER returns!"

stick your foot in your mouth, and oh, i thought ninja liked ac milan

 

[gomito#10]

u're right mate, it's ridicolous, but often revolutions born from tragedies











well mate, what u heard is true. actually that's exactly what usually happens. but i wouldn't say it's because they're lazy. it's more about preparation. i mean, controlling a stadium is a very hard test for the police. u have to be cool, well prepared, focused on what happens in the ends, and, most important, u have always to know what to do in every circumstances; cos when "shit happens" u haven't the time to think what to do, u have to react immediately. if u're not prepared, if u're not confident, some thugs will see your pain, your confusion, and will take advantage of it (and when u're scared u may even start hitting anybody u see, wich is extremely dangerous, coz it increase ultras anger against the police)

i'd say our police is quite unprepared. that's why Marukomu idea sounds great to me. and in my opinion it won't even be so hard or expensive to do.

But there's even one other very big problem.
our criminal law is very advanced. sure one of the most advanced in the world. italian criminal law (like french criminal law) is mostly influenced bu illuministic principles, and that's great. Our criminal system provides some very important guarantees for the culprit (is culprit the right word? btw i mean those person who are waiting for a sentence).
this usually brings to a fair judgement. But it also opens the doors to the chance (for some kind of crimes) for the criminals to avoid the prison (if they never violated the law before). if i remember well, in common law systems this is known as "parole".
well, talking about ultras, that's a very big problem, as they usually manage to avoid prison..... well there's no need to say that repression is a very big factor if we really want to solve this problem.
we have to elaborate a specific procedural discipline for this kind of crimes, or theese thugs will start to feel like they're "unbeatable". we did it for trials against mafiosi, i guess we have to do it for ultras too.

just yesterday a policeman who was Filippo Raciti's friend, said that agent Raciti, just last week was witness in a trial against an ultras. well, Raciti said to his friend that that ultras left the court with not even a day of jail.... he said that, while he was leaving the court, that bastard was laughing at him

well, that's another problem we have to solve. a good law is important. a correct application of the law is even more important

lozio, you bring up an intresting point. Here in america back in the 80's when the war against drugs started. A bunch of rebulicans lawmakers decided that programs like parole, and work release werent good enough and as you seem to think above, incarceration is the answer. So now come 20 years later, and are jails have BALLOONEND with mostly african american and poor white /hispanic prisoners the majority who are simple drug users(not dealers). We are constantly building prisons because our laws were written so that people HAVE to serve jail time in some cases, and rarely receive parole(unless of course if your rich and can afford a good lawyer, one reason why drug dealers dont go to jail). And now statistics have shown that men who go to prison once, are a much greater risk to go back to prison. However men who are paroled or probation or go on work release programs and rehibilitation programs, have much smaller risk of going back to prison. So your probably wondering why im babbling on, but you made an intresting statment...

"well there's no need to say that repression is a very big factor if we really want to solve this problem"

Well I think that is the problem, If these kids have no jobs, no chance for education, no hope, then what else is for them? How else can they survive without committing crimes at some point in there young lives. Has jail provided hope, jobs and education for
the young impoverished youth of my country? Not really, all it has done in perpetuate the cycle of crime and violence in this country. The jails aren't getting smaller, there getting bigger, the laws we have here dont work, they are costing tax payers billions and billons of $$$ a year. And for what, so we can keep creating prisons? Changing your laws to give harsher sentences is not going to give hope to the young and poor youth or your country. Nor will it stop the violence at football matches, it will just perpetuate it, the jailed ultras will just be giving more "street cred" and "respect" . These jail sentences wont provide jobs, income nor education. Sociteys problems begin and sometimes end with education and hope. Its too bad people are so stuck on there own lives that they don't realize this. Im sure some of my American compatriots on this forum will totally disagree with me, but im sure most of them have never seen the indside of a jail cell either....

 

[Jake_Hazuki]

El Diego your a moron please leave this forum because all you do is if you dont like a team or country you say they are crap or are cheaters.

But back to Italy i really hope they can fix this whole thing out very very soon because i want to see Inter Roma in the league and the Cup. i dont know why anyone would want to kill its just sick. and some of the people being under 18 is shocking

 

[mad87mad]

well officials here they don't act good with problems
last year when torino had serie B problem they didn't solve it
good and they keep challenge torino fans while the winter games was in torino the crowd say it no( Toro no Olimpiadi ) i dnt know how they think but itS not the right way to solve the problems
@ el diego i dont know ur problem is it with the italian football or with italia if u have proplem with something dnt blame the whole ppl coz of it i'm libyan should i kill all italians starting by my mom for what Mussolini did to my ppl !!

 

[lo zio]

Csauders, i perfectly understand your doubts and what u said about the post-detention effects is absolutely true and it's proven by recent studies even here in italy.

it would be nice to have a conversation with u about this subject, but i think this isn't the right place (i think a lot of people here would be annoyed by this conversation..... but not me ). Moreover my english just allows me "elementar conversations" and it would be hard for me to write in english about a so technical subject.........

However my passion for this subject (i just get graduated in law)imposes to me to reply, so i'll try to be as concise as i can.

here in italy u don't pay for receveing parole (or to being "on probation"). So no matter how poor u are u can get it. For your first crime u receive parole almost always. this way people start to think they got some sort of "ticket for a free first crime" (the example of that ultras that left the court laughing at the policeman says it all).

now u say that "men who go to prison once, are a much greater risk to go back to prison. However men who are paroled or probation or go on work release programs and rehibilitation programs, have much smaller risk of going back to prison.".
well, first of all this is just partially true, as in 2006 a report of american dpt. of justice showed that the 39% of people released on parole in 2004 (187.000) went back in prison in 2005.... as u can see is not a little percentage (almost 4 of 10).
moreover, here in italy rehabilitation programs are just for people on probation, not for paroled. So an ultras paroled may leave the court and be totally free, exactly as he was before he violated the law. obviously this situation gives him a "sensation of immunity" that brings him to violate the law once again (here in italy the percentage in 2005 was 60%, even bigger than the american one - coz they don't follow any rehabilitation program, i'd say-).

Well I think that is the problem, If these kids have no jobs, no chance for education, no hope, then what else is for them? How else can they survive without committing crimes at some point in there young lives. Has jail provided hope, jobs and education for
the young impoverished youth of my country? Not really, all it has done in perpetuate the cycle of crime and violence in this country

absolutely true. but the solution can't be parole or probation. and i'll explain u why.
A criminal law system must acquit 4 functions:
1) to repress the violation of the law;
2) to re-educate the prisoner;
3) to protect the community;
4) to persuade the people not to violate the law

now, to acquit the first function (repression), u have always to apply the law (parole and probation go exactly on the opposite way).

to acquit the third function (protection) u have always to apply the law. A state who doens't jail criminals of course doesn't protect his citizens.

to acquit the fourth function (moral suasion) u have always to apply the law. This is the most important (and most underestimated) function, because it operates before the man violate the law (and brings the people to respect it). Well, people is persuaded to respect the law when they know that if they will violate it, they will be punished. Each law has 2 faces; one face establish a rule, the other establish what u will get if u don't follow the rule (sanction). When the sanction is not applied (amnesty, parole, probation) people is brought to think they can violate the law (as they won't pay the consequences).

so to avoid criminals to go back in prison again there's only one way: to acquit the second function: re-educate the criminal; by providing him an instruction while he's jailed, by providing him a work (that he can do in prison), assuring him a decent life while he's in prison.
No country in this world does this the right way. life condition of prisoners is awful and that's the reason why a criminal, once he left the prison, is an "even worst citizen".
but parole and probation are extreme measures that must be used just in a few cases, because they always give the citizen the sensation that the law wasn't applied.

dostoevskij wrote that the level of civilization of a society can be measured by the life condition of his prisoners. That's the real point. To avoid people to violate the law again we should operate on this level. But this would require a lot of money and we all see prisons just like "a cost" (and not like an investment on civilization, as it should be). Parole (when is applied the wrong way) is just a way to avoid the problem,coz people who doesn't pay the consequences of his action won't learn anything (as i wrote before, here in italy we don't have rehabilitation programs for paroled people). Moreover this using (better, abusing) systems like parole u violate the others 3 funtions a criminal system shoud acquit:
u don't repress the crime
u don't protect the citizens
u don't persuade them that violating the law is something bad and brings to some consequences.

If these kids have no jobs, no chance for education, no hope, then what else is for them? How else can they survive without committing crimes at some point in there young lives.

true. but wouldn't it be even worst if they don't pay the consequences of their actions? Paying the consequences of your actions is a simple, elementar rule. when u look at a criminal's background u'll always discover that his parents didn't teached him this rule. so giving back theese kids to their families won't solve anything, don't u think?

Has jail provided hope, jobs and education for
the young impoverished youth of my country?

Not, but jails (as dostoevskij, Beccaria and Mazzini wrote) should do this. the problem is that we don't wanna support the costs of this.

Changing your laws to give harsher sentences is not going to give hope to the young and poor youth or your country?

it's not about establishing harsh sentences. u may establish a soft punishment, but once u establish it, u got to apply it. Because otherwise people will start to think that the law has no function.
Once we thought that the best repression was by harsh sentences. Illuminism teached us that this theory is wrong. The best repression is by establishing adeguate punishments (not too soft, neither too heavy, otherwise u'll get the opposite result) and by applying them always. the application of the law is the most important aspect.

jailed ultras will just be giving more "street cred" and "respect"

maybe. but what if they doesn't get jailed? do u think they will learn anything?
that guy that left the court laughing at the policeman..... do u think he learned anything? As long as we know he could be agent Raciti's killer
moreover, if we don't apply the law (that establish a punishment) what kind of example we'll give to theese guys, tho the whole community (talking about moral suasion once again, as u can see).

...jails have BALLOONEND...

that's italy's problem too. and do u know how we solved it? with the worst solution ever. we used the "indulto" (which is a sort of amnesty). while usa is building more and more prisons, we just emptied ours. we gave freedom to almost 3000 criminals..... and u know what? in less than 1 year 1500 of them are already jailed again. they didn't pay the consequences of their actions, so they violated tha law once again, and now, our prisons are full again

Sociteys problems begin and sometimes end with education and hope.

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: Education and Hope. it's so beautiful to read this mate. just a few men realize that theese (and charity too) are the most important things in a man's life. education, hope and charity; it's parents duty to teach this. when parents don't do it, then the criminal system SHOULD supply (that's what dostoevskij was talking about). Now none criminal system does it.... but parole isn't a solution.

A bunch of rebulicans lawmakers .........

being compared to a republican??:shock: that's really frightening, mate



finally i've to underline something. common law and civil law are very different systems: both of them got some good and bad aspects. common law is more elastic, more flexible. Judges are law-creators. they "produce" law. so it happens often that the 2 moments (law creation and law application) converge.

civil law system instaed presupposes that theese 2 moments are separated. Just the parliament can produce law, while judges are the only one who can apply it.

interpretation rules in common law systems are much more flexible, coz the judges has the power to emanate sentence that will bind, will tie the future judges. Civil law systems, instead, are also called "case law systems" coz they are based on cases, not on precedents. our judges cannot absolutely create law so when they apply it, they HAVE to follow some interpretation rules that are extremely strict, rigid.
that's why we should be very careful about things like parole and probation. coz if an american judge gives parole, another judge may not give it. Here instead, when a law establish the application of parole, then every judge will have to give it in that case.
as u will understand this can bring quite dangerous consequences.

 

[gerd]

Good discussion between CSaunders and Lo Zio. My two cents (and i'm not a lawyer although i have experience with criminal youths in what Americans would call "the projects" i.e. social housing or community housing in England).

Why not try alternative sentences for young offenders???
Here in Belgium it works. We have some problems with youths too. Mostly with Belgian youths who are third generation immigrants. I don't blame them because scientific research has proven that they have less chances in school and afterwards much lesser jobs (even when they have university degrees).
What i try to do (this is my job and i like it) is let them feel that they belong in our society. First of all, give them something to do. Sports and culture are very important. We organize football training sessions in "the projects" and now and then tournaments. The people who give the training sessions are older youths of the same neighbourhood who act as role models. The ultimate role model in Belgium is Mbark Boussouffa who is playing for Anderlecht and was just elected football player of the year. He has roughly the same background as the targeted youths (although he has grown up in Holland and not Belgium) and he helps with similar schemes.
The next step is helping the youths with the "wrong" background with school and jobs. Now we are trying to work out a scheme were these youths get payed jobs during their school vacations. They will earn money and furthermore gain work experience. Beside that companies will see that most of these kids who have a potential problematic background, are actually functioning very well if they are given opportunities. When those kids have graduated they have more chances to find a job, certainly in the companies where they are already known...

What i want to say: repression alone does not help (there is need of repression, i agree with that) it is at least as important to give them a perspective...because every youth needs light at the end of the tunnel.

In our "advanced" western society the gap between haves and have-nots is growing. Some people are born in a tunnel but they see no lights at the end of that tunnel. In that situation it is understandable that they are prone to cause havoc. Football can provide positive or negative outlets for their frustrations...

I'm sorry if this is not formulated very good, but i'm a non-native English speaker...

 

[lo zio]

What i want to say: repression alone does not help (there is need of repression, i agree with that) it is at least as important to give them a perspective...because every youth needs light at the end of the tunnel.

ok, by reading this (and by reading the comparison between me and a republican :lol: ) i realize that probably i didn't express myself the right way.... as Gerd says is quite tough when u're a non native english speaker :roll:

Well, getting to the point. Repression alone is nothing It is just one of the four functions of a criminal system.

During my first diritto penale lesson (criminal law) the professor told us something like this:
Gentlemen, if u have the chance to have a chat with a culprit.... and u'll have a lot of chances in your professional life.... u will ALWAYS discover that each crime has 2 victims: the "victim" and the guilty. (he thought that human will is always addressed to "the good", and i think it too). But one of theese 2 "victims" violated a rule and we have to consider this. Our actions are always a consequence of our personal story, of our lives. but as lawyers, u have to understand that a state has to balance a lot of opposite needs.
- community security
- fair trials (constitutional guarantees)
- the respect of the rule that "rules must be respected" (there's no state otherwise)

talking about agent Raciti's example, we have to balance.
the need of finding the guilty;
the need to punish his actions
the need to "recuperate this guy to the civil society"
the need of giving "satisfaction" to agent Raciti's family, friends and the whole catania community ("satisfaction" is such a bad and unappropriate word, but my english doesn't allows me to find the correct word).

when a parent punish his son's bad attitude he has to teach him why he needs to be punished (moral suasion, the fourth function i talked about before) so that he won't do it again (the second function: reeducating the guilty).

a state is like a parent. it has to establish some rules (to allow people to live togheter in peace) and it has to control that no one of his "sons" violate theese rules.

repression (the punishment) is alway the extreme measure. it comes when a "parent" fails (when his son violate the rule, he shows that he didn't understand the importance of that rule, so it's mostly a parent's fault).
but it's a measure that has to be taken, coz the "repression" (what a bad word, btw) gives a "meaning" to the rule itself.

but when repression doesn't walks along with reeducation, is useless .And that's our real problem. to punish is easy. Reeducating is the real challenge. It costs a hard work and care (dialogue)for a parent...... it costs a lot of money for a state.
and that's why we (as parents, as states) often don't do it.

this obviously brings to bad results. and sometimes we might think that the repression is the problem (that it doesn't work, that it isn't necessary, as gerd says)). but this is not correct. the real problem is that when we punish, we have also to teach something. Repression is not useless; it becomes useless when it's not followed by reeducation.

do u wanna know why ultras hate so much police forces? because the never understood the real meaning of a rule. if u don't understand the meaning of a rule, u don't understand neither why u have to respect it. so u get punished. at this point someone has to teach u why u were punished, someone has to teach u the meaning of the rule u violated, wich needs that rule protects. if nobody does this, then repression brings just to one way: anger, frustration. and this usually brings this people to violate the rule once again, one they have the chance. that's our weak point. it's education, not repression.

Why not try alternative sentences for young offenders???

usually that's a wise solution. here in italy we have a lot of specific disciplines for young offenders ( for drug addicted, lil criminals, ultras....). Sometimes it works. but with ultras it didn't work (after 15 years of application, i can be quite sure of this).




there's still one other thing i have to say. each population has his needs. needs always depend by your previous story.
usa might need a softer treatment in certain cases. but this depends by their situation.

in usa the application of the law is very rigid and efficient.
In italy the situation is totally different. and i'll explain why.

in usa the criminal persecution is not obligatory. the pubblic attorney may choose which crimes to persecute, which criminals to punish. pubblic attorneys are elected by people; they have a "program" where they say on which kind of crimes they will focus.
this might seems quite unfair for a civil country, but this way usa police, pubblic offence office and courts are really efficient.

in italy instead, the criminal persecution is absolutely obligatory. pubblic attorneys aren't elected, they have no "programs", coz they just can't choose not to persecute a criminal. they have to react to every law violation.
this might seems more democratic, but it actually brings to bad results. our courts are so full of work, they just can't get the whole job done.
it happens quite often that a criminal doesn't spend not even a day in prison, just because prescription terms expire before the trial start.
If i kill someone today, my trial may start NEXT YEAR and end in 4 years. this cause our courts are full of work, of precedent cases.
as u will understand, this has an influence on law application; our justice is too slow, and italian people consider this as one of our most important problems. When they see a killer free coz prescription terms expired, they feel like law was not applied (and, in the end, that's true).

finally, as u can see, a need always borns from your story, from your situation. usa's situation is quite different, so they have different (i'd say opposite) needs, different (opposite) problems.



p.s. i forgot to say the most important thing:

Here in america back in the 80's when the war against drugs started. A bunch of rebulicans lawmakers decided that programs like parole, and work release werent good enough and as you seem to think above, incarceration is the answer.

i absolutely disagree with theese people, mate. each situation must be faced with specific, adeguate measures. Parole, probation and social work are essential "tools" in every civil criminal law system. What i meant to say is that, in this case (JUST in this case), theese measures aren't effective, and it's not just my opinion. it's a fact showed by 15 years of application of theese tools in ultras trials.
as i told before, italy criminal law system is mostly influenced by illuministic principles...... and i'm very proud of it

@ Gerd: your work is great. U got to be very proud of it :applause: :applause:

 

[gerd]

I like it a lot, but sometimes it's rather frustrating and there are times when i'm not proud about it at all...but still: thanks.

 

[gomito#10]

ok, by reading this (and by reading the comparison between me and a republican :lol: ) i realize that probably i didn't express myself the right way.... as Gerd says is quite tough when u're a non native english speaker :roll:

Well, getting to the point. Repression alone is nothing It is just one of the four functions of a criminal system.

During my first diritto penale lesson (criminal law) the professor told us something like this:
Gentlemen, if u have the chance to have a chat with a culprit.... and u'll have a lot of chances in your professional life.... u will ALWAYS discover that each crime has 2 victims: the "victim" and the guilty. (he thought that human will is always addressed to "the good", and i think it too). But one of theese 2 "victims" violated a rule and we have to consider this. Our actions are always a consequence of our personal story, of our lives. but as lawyers, u have to understand that a state has to balance a lot of opposite needs.
- community security
- fair trials (constitutional guarantees)
- the respect of the rule that "rules must be respected" (there's no state otherwise)

talking about agent Raciti's example, we have to balance.
the need of finding the guilty;
the need to punish his actions
the need to "recuperate this guy to the civil society"
the need of giving "satisfaction" to agent Raciti's family, friends and the whole catania community ("satisfaction" is such a bad and unappropriate word, but my english doesn't allows me to find the correct word).

when a parent punish his son's bad attitude he has to teach him why he needs to be punished (moral suasion, the fourth function i talked about before) so that he won't do it again (the second function: reeducating the guilty).

a state is like a parent. it has to establish some rules (to allow people to live togheter in peace) and it has to control that no one of his "sons" violate theese rules.

repression (the punishment) is alway the extreme measure. it comes when a "parent" fails (when his son violate the rule, he shows that he didn't understand the importance of that rule, so it's mostly a parent's fault).
but it's a measure that has to be taken, coz the "repression" (what a bad word, btw) gives a "meaning" to the rule itself.

but when repression doesn't walks along with reeducation, is useless .And that's our real problem. to punish is easy. Reeducating is the real challenge. It costs a hard work and care (dialogue)for a parent...... it costs a lot of money for a state.
and that's why we (as parents, as states) often don't do it.

this obviously brings to bad results. and sometimes we might think that the repression is the problem (that it doesn't work, that it isn't necessary, as gerd says)). but this is not correct. the real problem is that when we punish, we have also to teach something. Repression is not useless; it becomes useless when it's not followed by reeducation.

do u wanna know why ultras hate so much police forces? because the never understood the real meaning of a rule. if u don't understand the meaning of a rule, u don't understand neither why u have to respect it. so u get punished. at this point someone has to teach u why u were punished, someone has to teach u the meaning of the rule u violated, wich needs that rule protects. if nobody does this, then repression brings just to one way: anger, frustration. and this usually brings this people to violate the rule once again, one they have the chance. that's our weak point. it's education, not repression.




usually that's a wise solution. here in italy we have a lot of specific disciplines for young offenders ( for drug addicted, lil criminals, ultras....). Sometimes it works. but with ultras it didn't work (after 15 years of application, i can be quite sure of this).




there's still one other thing i have to say. each population has his needs. needs always depend by your previous story.
usa might need a softer treatment in certain cases. but this depends by their situation.

in usa the application of the law is very rigid and efficient.
In italy the situation is totally different. and i'll explain why.

in usa the criminal persecution is not obligatory. the pubblic attorney may choose which crimes to persecute, which criminals to punish. pubblic attorneys are elected by people; they have a "program" where they say on which kind of crimes they will focus.
this might seems quite unfair for a civil country, but this way usa police, pubblic offence office and courts are really efficient.

in italy instead, the criminal persecution is absolutely obligatory. pubblic attorneys aren't elected, they have no "programs", coz they just can't choose not to persecute a criminal. they have to react to every law violation.
this might seems more democratic, but it actually brings to bad results. our courts are so full of work, they just can't get the whole job done.
it happens quite often that a criminal doesn't spend not even a day in prison, just because prescription terms expire before the trial start.
If i kill someone today, my trial may start NEXT YEAR and end in 4 years. this cause our courts are full of work, of precedent cases.
as u will understand, this has an influence on law application; our justice is too slow, and italian people consider this as one of our most important problems. When they see a killer free coz prescription terms expired, they feel like law was not applied (and, in the end, that's true).

finally, as u can see, a need always borns from your story, from your situation. usa's situation is quite different, so they have different (i'd say opposite) needs, different (opposite) problems.



p.s. i forgot to say the most important thing:



i absolutely disagree with theese people, mate. each situation must be faced with specific, adeguate measures. Parole, probation and social work are essential "tools" in every civil criminal law system. What i meant to say is that, in this case (JUST in this case), theese measures aren't effective, and it's not just my opinion. it's a fact showed by 15 years of application of theese tools in ultras trials.
as i told before, italy criminal law system is mostly influenced by illuministic principles...... and i'm very proud of it

@ Gerd: your work is great. U got to be very proud of it :applause: :applause:

a couple of things, i didnt mean you have to pay for parole. But in order to have a good defence, it really really helps that you have an expensive, private lawyer. One who will really work on your case and only your case. Not a public defender who has loads and loads of cases and cant spend alot of time on each and everyone. I think the biggest problem is our war on drugs, how can you jail people who have a disease, do we jail alcoholics? Chronic smokers? People with AIDS? NO, but for somereason we jail drug addicts, We dont give them help, and they are more then likeley to return to prison. Im probably confusing that with violent criminals, which America has plenty of and the majority should be jailed. Rehabilitation and education to me is the best answer, not incarceration. Incarceration does not seem to be a deterrent at all to drug addicts or petty criminals(theft, burglary,vandalisim etc...)in America. I would consider most ultras petty criminals, bar the 13 murders you have had in and around stadiums for the last 50 odd years. If the point of jail is to punish and deter, then how well is it working if the same people are comming back, and the same people from the same background keep entering jails? Its not working. It's certainly not working here in the states, Jails should be getting smaller, instead there getting larger.

 

[gerd]

Csaunders, these are very liberal views for an American...respect.

 

[lo zio]

Csaunders, these are very liberal views for an American...respect.

there are a lot of wrong prejudices about americans

@ Csaunders: as Gerd, i really admire yor views
but u have to consider that criminal law considers a lot of (very) different situations.

for example, u won't ever see a drug addicted in an italian prison. we've got special rehabilitation programs for them (some of them pubblic, others private). the same goes for lil thieves (social works) and a lot of other lil crimes (actually being a drug addicted, is not even considered a crime here, of course).

but murder is the worst crime in every civil legislation, and the same goes for riots (wich represent an offence to the pubblic order that a state HAS to preserve to protect his citizens).

each organised community establish a system of rules based on the principle of cause. action - reaction.


if i may, i suggest u to read Hans Kelsen (especially "the general theory of law" and The democracy") This man was the greatest jurist of the last century, and he is the father of the liberal-democratic theory of law.
I'd really like to explain u his theory, because it contains all the replies to your statements, but it's really too hard to put it in english, and it would take the whole afternoon (and a couple of pages ). believe me mate, his theories are illuminating... u won't be disappointed


in the meanwhile....

Rehabilitation and education to me is the best answer, not incarceration. Incarceration does not seem to be a deterrent

Incarceration has not to be a deterrent. thet deterrent is that moral suasion i talked before. U could say that the deterrent is the rule itself.

incarceration an rehabilitations acquit 2 different needs.
rehabilitation acquits the need to "reintroduce a man into the society"
incarceration acquits the need to preserve "the rule of law" (wich is the most important principle in every democracy in this world....... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_law

Both of them (incarceration and rehabilitation) HAVE to walk toghether, but they actually don't (coz, as i said before, we don't wanna support the cost of a REAL rehabilitation).

So, as i said before, we might think that incarceration is the problem. but it isn't. the real problem is that incarceraction never walks together with reeducation.

let me make silly example. if u turn on your pc but don't do the same with your monitor, u won't see anything. but this doesn't mean that your pc doesn't work anymore. if u wanna see something u just have to turn on your monitor too.

exactly as a pc and a monitor, incarceration and rehabilitation acquit different purposes. (u turn on your pc to let it start, u turn on your monitor to see what your pc is doing and to operate on him). But both of them have to walk together, coz without incarceration, u won't live anymore in a state of law, in a rule of law, in a rechtsstaat; without rehabilitation prisons will just "brutalize" people........(wich is what actually happens)

i didnt mean you have to pay for parole.

yep, i meant "probation"

Im probably confusing that with violent criminals...

i'd say that a riot is a very violent crime.

I would consider most ultras petty criminals

me too. but most criminals, not all of them. those ultras who start a battle like this

[/URL][/IMG]

well those sure aren't "petty" criminals

 

[lo zio]

I forgot something important.
i wrote about the tie between incarceration and rule of law. according to the principles of the rule of law and the theory of normation (kelsen), there's just one thing that distinguishes a "law" from any other rules (ethic rules, moral rules, religious rules, bon ton rules....): a "law" always provides a punishment when someone violates it. and this punishment must have an afflictive nature.

this is the most important principle of the rule of law

 

[gomito#10]

I forgot something important.
i wrote about the tie between incarceration and rule of law. according to the principles of the rule of law and the theory of normation (kelsen), there's just one thing that distinguishes a "law" from any other rules (ethic rules, moral rules, religious rules, bon ton rules....): a "law" always provides a punishment when someone violates it. and this punishment must have an afflictive nature.

this is the most important principle of the rule of law

good conversation, your command of the english language is excellent, probably better then mine! LOL

 

[gomito#10]

there are a lot of wrong prejudices about americans

@ Csaunders: as Gerd, i really admire yor views
but u have to consider that criminal law considers a lot of (very) different situations.

for example, u won't ever see a drug addicted in an italian prison. we've got special rehabilitation programs for them (some of them pubblic, others private). the same goes for lil thieves (social works) and a lot of other lil crimes (actually being a drug addicted, is not even considered a crime here, of course).

but murder is the worst crime in every civil legislation, and the same goes for riots (wich represent an offence to the pubblic order that a state HAS to preserve to protect his citizens).

each organised community establish a system of rules based on the principle of cause. action - reaction.


if i may, i suggest u to read Hans Kelsen (especially "the general theory of law" and The democracy") This man was the greatest jurist of the last century, and he is the father of the liberal-democratic theory of law.
I'd really like to explain u his theory, because it contains all the replies to your statements, but it's really too hard to put it in english, and it would take the whole afternoon (and a couple of pages ). believe me mate, his theories are illuminating... u won't be disappointed


in the meanwhile....




Incarceration has not to be a deterrent. thet deterrent is that moral suasion i talked before. U could say that the deterrent is the rule itself.

incarceration an rehabilitations acquit 2 different needs.
rehabilitation acquits the need to "reintroduce a man into the society"
incarceration acquits the need to preserve "the rule of law" (wich is the most important principle in every democracy in this world....... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_law

Both of them (incarceration and rehabilitation) HAVE to walk toghether, but they actually don't (coz, as i said before, we don't wanna support the cost of a REAL rehabilitation).

So, as i said before, we might think that incarceration is the problem. but it isn't. the real problem is that incarceraction never walks together with reeducation.

let me make silly example. if u turn on your pc but don't do the same with your monitor, u won't see anything. but this doesn't mean that your pc doesn't work anymore. if u wanna see something u just have to turn on your monitor too.

exactly as a pc and a monitor, incarceration and rehabilitation acquit different purposes. (u turn on your pc to let it start, u turn on your monitor to see what your pc is doing and to operate on him). But both of them have to walk together, coz without incarceration, u won't live anymore in a state of law, in a rule of law, in a rechtsstaat; without rehabilitation prisons will just "brutalize" people........(wich is what actually happens)




yep, i meant "probation"






i'd say that a riot is a very violent crime.





me too. but most criminals, not all of them. those ultras who start a battle like this

[/URL][/IMG]

well those sure aren't "petty" criminals

and unfortunatley my man, idiot politicians here, equate drug additcs with murderers,... infact sometimes they are worse according to the law. its so very very very sad.... And we can all thank nancy regan and her idiot actor husband for this.

 

[lo zio]

and unfortunatley my man, idiot politicians here, equate drug additcs with murderers,... infact sometimes they are worse according to the law. its so very very very sad.... And we can all thank nancy regan and her idiot actor husband for this.

i see mate, and i absolutely agree with u on this point. Drugs addicted and murderers...... such an horrible and stupid comparison.

btw, it was a nice chat with u, Csaunders. Your posts really surprised me (and it was a nice surprise)


getting back to the topic:

The number of people jailed for catania disorders grew to 38. And it seems that the police found agent Raciti's murderer..... he should be a 17 years old guy they caught this morning

The catania stadium's guardian was arrested too. The police was just going to search his house (as his son is an ultras), but when they knocked on his door he unleashed his dogs against the policemen..... his wife and his daughter attacked the policemen with bolts, screaming "die bastards!".....:shock:
btw, once inside the guardian's house, the policemen discovered an "armory"......bolts, flares, and some ACAB t-shirts (ACAB stands for "All Cops Are Bastards").

This evening the Internal Affairs Minister will officially say which are the stadia ready, according to the Pisanu Act parameters (the list i posted before was still "unofficial").

 

[bebo]

a social language for your understanting in American terms:

american= means whites
african-american =blacks
asian-american= asian
Spanish-american = HISPANIC preferred, Latinos (never called them americans it`s an insult to most)
Yanks= people living in Northern states(city-slickers)(they use a lot of electricity :mrgreen: )

Southerns= country boys,christian bible belt states who HATE yanks! who wish the North lost for killing all the Native-Indians which are really Mexicans(did i say that)
Dirty-South=country blacks ,the toughest most angriest blacks around(mostly thinks whites own them for free labors 100 yrs back called "back pay")


Many people in the World think Americans our one-sided you lots don`t have a clue.And the list is of the eastern states I have no clue of the west,the Irish and Italians ran them out of the east(rumors has it)

 

[lo zio]

Yanks= people living in Northern
[

is it Yanks then? i always said "yankees" :lol:

btw, nice post. your statement about european lack of knowkledge about americans is absolutely true.
i've the chance to be in usa for a while, and i noticed it too. but i noticed that also in america there are a lot of stereotypes about europeans. i think we just don't know each others well.


now here it is the official list of italian stadia that will stay opened to the pubblic:

Stadio Olimpico (Roma)
Sant' Elia (Cagliari)
Renzo Barbera, la Favorita (Palermo)
Artemio Franchi (Siena)
Luigi Ferraris (Genova)
Stadio Olimpico (torino)

the others stadia will stay closed until they'll be ready, according to the Pisanu Act parameters.
Some of them are almost ready, btw:
San Filippo (Messina)
Oreste Granillo (Reggio Calabria)
Tardini (Parma)
Castellani (empoli)
Theese stadia are almost perfect. they just need to fix some details and tthey'll be ready (probably in a couple of weeks)

some of them aren't still ready, but there are work in progress: they might be ready in a couple of weeks too, it will depend on how fast they will be (They say that people is working on San Siro even during the night, to be ready as soon as possible). here they are:
San Siro, Giuseppe Meazza (Milano)
Artemio Franchi (Firenze)
Armando Picchi (Livorno)


some others stadia are quite far from being ready. The works projects aren't still approved by the "cities boards" and so the works still didn't started. they are:
Del Duca (Ascoli)
Bentegodi (verona)
Azzurri d'italia (Bergamo)
Friuli (udine)
Massimino (catania) (anyway Catania stadium will be closed for a long time, imo..... at the moment the police sealed it)

according to this list 5 matches willl be played "closed doors" this week.
atalanta - lazio
chievo - inter
fiorentina udinese
messina - catania
milan - livorno

 

[bebo]

true...forget about amerians learning euros they can`t understand why hispanics still speak spanish :lol: (speak english now)joking

anyhow because all this talk in the media about serie A It makes everyone want to watch it now...the power of news(bad or good)

 

[Jake_Hazuki]

when will we see inter vs roma well its good that the games are back and running

 

[Cloud1863]

I'm gutted I've lost my connection atm so I'm temp on-line.

I like the way that this is been handled, the Pisano act is a good move. A positive step for Serie A and hopefully this will be "history" soon, I don't mean the death as that should never be forgotten just the negative points of Italian football.

Football is the name on the tin, does what it says and that's all it should be about. I as a someone that's English will stand by this league as when I grew up it consistantly gave me the greatest football I could see. I still think that's its always been a better league than the Spanish and hope it will come out of the hole it is in.

 

[lo zio]

true...forget about amerians learning euros they can`t understand why hispanics still speak spanish :lol: (speak english now)joking

:mrgreen:
i'd say the problem is travelling. To understand other countries culture u have to stay there for a while. but not as a "tourist". That's the wrong approach imo. To know italian, french, english, spanish people, u "have to live with them, live like them", when u visit their countries. Visiting a museum won't tell u anything about "the italian style"; i mean, a lot of italians don't even know what "the renaissance" is (shame on us ). to really understand something about italians u have to see a football match, u have to take a glass of wine with us in a pub, u have to talk with us..... that's the right way, imo

anyhow because all this talk in the media about serie A It makes everyone want to watch it now...the power of news(bad or good)

good news for rupert murdoch, then :lol:






@Jake

when will we see inter vs roma well its good that the games are back and running

serie a will start from the 23rd week. the matches of the 22nd week (except catania - palermo, of course) will be played the 18th of april.
they took this decision cause each football club was already prepared to face the 23rd week (flight tickets and room hotels bought) this sunday, so they prefered to delay all the matches that weren't played last week (including Inter - Roma).





@Cloud

hope it will come out of the hole it is in.

that's my hope too, mate

 

[Jake_Hazuki]

Thanks for the information lo zio your one of the best members here always helping people

 

[gomito#10]

a social language for your understanting in American terms:

american= means whites
african-american =blacks
asian-american= asian
Spanish-american = HISPANIC preferred, Latinos (never called them americans it`s an insult to most)
Yanks= people living in Northern states(city-slickers)(they use a lot of electricity :mrgreen: )

Southerns= country boys,christian bible belt states who HATE yanks! who wish the North lost for killing all the Native-Indians which are really Mexicans(did i say that)
Dirty-South=country blacks ,the toughest most angriest blacks around(mostly thinks whites own them for free labors 100 yrs back called "back pay")


Many people in the World think Americans our one-sided you lots don`t have a clue.And the list is of the eastern states I have no clue of the west,the Irish and Italians ran them out of the east(rumors has it)

christ, this is racist, ignorant, and one of the most ill-informed post i have seen. I cannot beleive you are a school teacher. You gotta be kidding me, how about all of the latino service men and women of our armend forces, do you think they are insulted when you call them american? Or how about our attorney general, Roberto Gonzales(i cant stand him) but he is latino american. How about the mayor of Los Angeles? A rod? Tony Gonzalez? I can imagine some latinos are very proud of there hispanic roots, but to tell the rest of the world that most are insulted to be called american, is fucking stupid. American does not mean WHITE, american means red, white, blue, yellow, brown, pink, black, rainbow. We are all people. Southern blacks are angry? Do you realize how racist and ignorant that is? God I hope your not teching your two children these things man, god help you

 

[bebo]

I`m speaking in terms of a minority..you know I`m not a racist for putting terms of society out...I know your white and take offense very easy, even when you put me down I don`t attack you because I known what your about and that`s your point of view . I live in Miami where there mostly speak spanish .I teach kids math who speak bilingual this thread talks about youth, I have a clear view and that`s the terms.

Please! think what racist is...prejudice may come to mind
I have no organization No followers I`m Dominican I hate no one
but most American have issues with acceptance(Think why most 2nd generation forget their languages,We hispanics will not forget ours)No need to worry what I teach my kids they don`t go to Government schools I support Arsenal and they support Liverpool already failing


csaunders I think you know nothing about Hispanics :mrgreen: and their acceptances...and spare me about your grandfather coming from Italy . Your offensive comes from trying to defend America so much . You think all is well

I love this country but I dont hide the obvious and I`m a Republican I hate Government


Here a secret: when asking a hispanic in spanish if he`s american they`ll say no I`m boricua,cubichie,dominiqui ....even though they were born here why because they want identity (roots are important for us)

 

[bebo]

How about the mayor of Los Angeles? A rod? Tony Gonzalez? I can imagine some latinos are very proud of there hispanic roots, but to tell the rest of the world that most are insulted to be called american, is fucking

I said I know nothing about the WEST!(LA)
do you speak to them do you know them??? A rod is Dominican from Miami I spoke to his family at the airport going to DR so??

Southern blacks are angry? Do you realize how racist and ignorant that is?

Southern blacks, wounds from generation to generation is apparent don`t give them handouts out of pitty then take it away most became dependent on government handouts...wow you are clueless! To change the mind set you don`t give them fish to eat you teach them how to fish.
I wish you read with an open-mind you judge so quickly these views our from the youth perspective it`s are future fathers and mothers! I dont try and talk all the time to the kids,somtimes they just want to be herd

no disrespect to you csaunders you are a great person

 

[gomito#10]

I said I know nothing about the WEST!(LA)
do you speak to them do you know them??? A rod is Dominican from Miami I spoke to his family at the airport going to DR so??



Southern blacks, wounds from generation to generation is apparent don`t give them handouts out of pitty then take it away most became dependent on government handouts...wow you are clueless! To change the mind set you don`t give them fish to eat you teach them how to fish.
I wish you read with an open-mind you judge so quickly these views our from the youth perspective it`s are future fathers and mothers! I dont try and talk all the time to the kids,somtimes they just want to be herd

no disrespect to you csaunders you are a great person

those views needs to be changend then, and it starts with you, the educators of the world. These views are generalizations and stereotypes, they simply are not true. I have lived all over america mostly in the south, and your views simply do not represent anyone or anything substantial. there just stereotypes perpetuated by music, movies, and now sadly our teachers....

1)Not all blacks from the south are angry
2)Not all hispanics are insulted to be considered americans
3)Not all yankees are white and the only true americans


If your teaching this kind of bullshit, you should be fired

America is not miami my friend, open your mind

 

[bebo]

your true american eh? sorry for reporting the views...not blind at all no racism in america...just for songs and your mixed black/white/italian and your spanish and I`m twisted then so be it!

 

[Ad16]

I can't believe you made such simple generalizations to be honest bebo. :eh: BTW, how did this topic come up? What relationship does this have with the situation in Italy? :-s

 

[bebo]

I can't believe you made such simple generalizations to be honest bebo. :eh: BTW, how did this topic come up? What relationship does this have with the situation in Italy? :-s

how trouble teens cause problems and there views of destruction...I guess