Are Konami guilty of milking or just living in the land of delusion?
- Thread starter hangar18
- Start date
Jamezinho
Golden Boot Winner
Are Konami milking the fanbase?
No, I don't think so. EA Sports are more guilty of this. Charging for DLC for things that should be in the game anyway seems to be a hallmark of their recent titles. Then there's Activision bumping up the price of Modern Warfare 2 to take advantage of the ensuing fan frenzy. You get what you pay for with PES and if you don't like it, don't buy it.
Are Konami deluded?
Maybe. They are a Japanese developer whose home market is very different to the western world, and as such they may be caught between trying to satisfy two sets of fans who may want different things from PES. What I would say is Konami needs more interaction with western programmers/developers who can help drag the game from quirky Japanese kick-about to a heavyweight sports game that can stand toe-to-toe with Fifa, Madden, NBA2K (etc) and not feel out of place. Which leads me to............
Is Konami out of touch with modern developing techniques?
Or specifically PES Productions? A resounding yes. But we knew that already. MGS5 is proof that Konami have some very talented people in their organisation that can produce a stunning game, but this has obviously not filtered down to the PES team. They need to bring in some new people that know how to make next-gen games, or if not, outsource it to people that can.
Is PES still fun?
Fucking right it is, warts and all.
No, I don't think so. EA Sports are more guilty of this. Charging for DLC for things that should be in the game anyway seems to be a hallmark of their recent titles. Then there's Activision bumping up the price of Modern Warfare 2 to take advantage of the ensuing fan frenzy. You get what you pay for with PES and if you don't like it, don't buy it.
Are Konami deluded?
Maybe. They are a Japanese developer whose home market is very different to the western world, and as such they may be caught between trying to satisfy two sets of fans who may want different things from PES. What I would say is Konami needs more interaction with western programmers/developers who can help drag the game from quirky Japanese kick-about to a heavyweight sports game that can stand toe-to-toe with Fifa, Madden, NBA2K (etc) and not feel out of place. Which leads me to............
Is Konami out of touch with modern developing techniques?
Or specifically PES Productions? A resounding yes. But we knew that already. MGS5 is proof that Konami have some very talented people in their organisation that can produce a stunning game, but this has obviously not filtered down to the PES team. They need to bring in some new people that know how to make next-gen games, or if not, outsource it to people that can.
Is PES still fun?
Fucking right it is, warts and all.
embraceuk1
Original Member Since 2001
Konami are where Ea were in the early 2000's.
Too many small tweaks and not listening to fans.
But we are to blame too noone should have bought PES 2008 it was clearly crap and maybe the absence of sales would have been the push they needed.
The blind fan boys don't help either by claiming any games the best ever when most of these ppl hadn't played PES before 2008.
Also the ppl who complain about the little things like nets, faces, fingers, crowds etc all stuff you cant even see when playing the game anyway. and when the Gameplay is clearly broken and the Masterleague was ignored for 4 years etc.
Too many small tweaks and not listening to fans.
But we are to blame too noone should have bought PES 2008 it was clearly crap and maybe the absence of sales would have been the push they needed.
The blind fan boys don't help either by claiming any games the best ever when most of these ppl hadn't played PES before 2008.
Also the ppl who complain about the little things like nets, faces, fingers, crowds etc all stuff you cant even see when playing the game anyway. and when the Gameplay is clearly broken and the Masterleague was ignored for 4 years etc.
bertkamp16
Big Pun, G.O.A.T.
You've made some great points. This exactly the kind of "niggly" stuff I was talking about. Are the jerseys and faces better in PES 2010? Yes, but are they miles ahead of FIFA, not really. Not enough to make me even consider it a factor in my desicion making. No different than when I dropped FIFA 2000 for ISS all those years ago.
winston
Champions League
- 7 August 2005
It wouldn't surprise me if the real reason PES has stagnated for so long is that Seabass isn't intellectually capable of making it much better. It was a masterpiece in its day (2001 or thereabouts), it was his one stroke of genius, and just because he had one doesn't mean he'll have another. Most people have zero strokes of genius in their lives. At least he's had one.
It's also his baby, he's probably quite precious about some of the programming fundamentals he developed to create the engine and isn't willing, or able, to rewrite a new engine, from the bottom up, that is so obviously required.
Not sure if he, or Konami, will pay the price for this stagnancy, but I know I won't be buying it again this year....the 2nd year running. I'm not alone in that. But plenty others still seem willing to part with their cash, so perhaps we'll the same old game rehashed for many years to come. Let's face it, FIFA used to be a heck of a lot worse than PES has ever been, yet it still sold by the bucket-load, even at its most cack.
It's also his baby, he's probably quite precious about some of the programming fundamentals he developed to create the engine and isn't willing, or able, to rewrite a new engine, from the bottom up, that is so obviously required.
Not sure if he, or Konami, will pay the price for this stagnancy, but I know I won't be buying it again this year....the 2nd year running. I'm not alone in that. But plenty others still seem willing to part with their cash, so perhaps we'll the same old game rehashed for many years to come. Let's face it, FIFA used to be a heck of a lot worse than PES has ever been, yet it still sold by the bucket-load, even at its most cack.
juce
Champions League
- 7 November 2003
I don't think PES needs a stroke of genius to make it better. But Konami's goal is not to make the game better, but make it more sellable. Ultimately, it is a business, and when you look at it that way, many things they've done and not done, as the series evolved, make sense. The sad reality is that PES used to appeal to die-hard football fans, and apparently was built _for_ such people. But today, the target audience is very different.
- Thread starter
- #37
In theory 'making it better' should be correlated with increased sales. But I do get what your saying in the trade of between increased short term sales and loss of reputation.
In terms of target audience, it seems it has been built more and more for the domestic market which is somewhat difficult to understand, given the majority of sales likely come from the western world.
EatonTJ
Why Today Doesn't Suck.
- 11 April 2002
Personally, I think that PES has appeared to be on a "downslide" for the past few years simply because the FIFA series has suddenly improved massively.
PES has steadily improved over the past 10 years or so, but all the improvements have been incremental and the underlying gameplay is still familiar from the first version to today's. To me, it's not that it has suddenly become crap... it's that the gameplay is still based on the initial engine designed back in the PS1/PS2 days. We have all played the same engine for so long that we've become used to it, whether for good or bad.
The FIFA series, on the other hand, has gone through various incarnations in the past few years and now with Rutter at the helm has been turned into an excellent footy game to rival PES. Rutter, who has admitted to have been a former PES fan/ FIFA hater, took over the FIFA series and wanted to make a PES style game that addressed what he thought were the shortcomings of the PES series.
Personally, I think for Konami to make major changes in PES, they will have to make a major change at the top of the PES team... and that means Seabass will have to step down. BUT, there is no guarantee that the person to replace Seabass will be any better which makes that option pretty risky. Based on sales expectations and production costs, I think Konami has been very happy with the money the PES team brings in and I don't think they want to risk losing that money, especially in today's financial climate.
EA took a chance with Rutter and has been pleasantly rewarded. But EA has the resources to take those risks. Konami, a much smaller company, has been content to leave Seabass at the helm of the PES series, despite the dwindling improvements and sales, because PES is still making a considerable amount of money for the company. The only thing that will motivate Konami to change direction (IMO) is a significant loss of revenue from the PES series. But I also wouldn't be surprised if a "change in direction" from Konami would be to not make a footy game at all, if sales fall to the point of losing money.
It will be very interesting to see the sales of this year's footy games... and to see if FIFA 10 makes any sales headway in Japan vs. the Winning Eleven edition. Konami will have to address their PES series soon, hopefully they come up with a solution that reinvigorates this once mighty series.
PES has steadily improved over the past 10 years or so, but all the improvements have been incremental and the underlying gameplay is still familiar from the first version to today's. To me, it's not that it has suddenly become crap... it's that the gameplay is still based on the initial engine designed back in the PS1/PS2 days. We have all played the same engine for so long that we've become used to it, whether for good or bad.
The FIFA series, on the other hand, has gone through various incarnations in the past few years and now with Rutter at the helm has been turned into an excellent footy game to rival PES. Rutter, who has admitted to have been a former PES fan/ FIFA hater, took over the FIFA series and wanted to make a PES style game that addressed what he thought were the shortcomings of the PES series.
Personally, I think for Konami to make major changes in PES, they will have to make a major change at the top of the PES team... and that means Seabass will have to step down. BUT, there is no guarantee that the person to replace Seabass will be any better which makes that option pretty risky. Based on sales expectations and production costs, I think Konami has been very happy with the money the PES team brings in and I don't think they want to risk losing that money, especially in today's financial climate.
EA took a chance with Rutter and has been pleasantly rewarded. But EA has the resources to take those risks. Konami, a much smaller company, has been content to leave Seabass at the helm of the PES series, despite the dwindling improvements and sales, because PES is still making a considerable amount of money for the company. The only thing that will motivate Konami to change direction (IMO) is a significant loss of revenue from the PES series. But I also wouldn't be surprised if a "change in direction" from Konami would be to not make a footy game at all, if sales fall to the point of losing money.
It will be very interesting to see the sales of this year's footy games... and to see if FIFA 10 makes any sales headway in Japan vs. the Winning Eleven edition. Konami will have to address their PES series soon, hopefully they come up with a solution that reinvigorates this once mighty series.
BwA Spectre
Banned
- 19 August 2008
zeemeister
foxy engine
@bwa Spectre you make an excellent point metacritic scores and media reveiws are so true. If it scores so highly it can't be wrong why would the media lie? Sarcasm mode over.
GTA IV anyone? The perfect scored game that had the world in it's grip. Until the world had to take it's best buddy for bowling and darts and you could even catch a cab. This from a game named Grand Theft Auto that got it's money from allowing gamers murder,hijacking and mayhem....not a good thing but a hell of a lot more fun than riding trains and looking at the city.
GTA IV anyone? The perfect scored game that had the world in it's grip. Until the world had to take it's best buddy for bowling and darts and you could even catch a cab. This from a game named Grand Theft Auto that got it's money from allowing gamers murder,hijacking and mayhem....not a good thing but a hell of a lot more fun than riding trains and looking at the city.
Jess
Ballon D'Or
You do realise taking a cab isn't mandatory, right?
zeemeister
foxy engine
It might not have been mandatory but why put it in grand theft AUTO!! and to make matters worse the reveiwers cream their pants about it too.
Jess
Ballon D'Or
To be honest I like taking a cab; it's quicker when you wanna get to your destination without driving because you can just skip the journey, besides that Rockstar worked incredibly hard on the graphics and sometimes its nice to admire the scenery. If you don't like it then don't use it, like I said, its not mandatory.
zeemeister
foxy engine
Agreed, but you miss my point. Reviewers made as if it was the best thing since buttered bread but failed to mention that it lost touch with its predecessor and what put GTA on the map in the first place....this of course is IMO.
I would be very interested what R* do for the next GTA they already brought planes and parachutes back for "ballad of Gay Tony"
I would be very interested what R* do for the next GTA they already brought planes and parachutes back for "ballad of Gay Tony"
- Staff
- #45
Zee I think GTA IV is one of the best games I've ever played - the thing is though that no game is perfect just the same as no film is perfect, you can't expect everyone to love the same thing or hate the same thing. You have to let some things go in order to enjoy a game, i.e. the first guy I hit in GTA got stuck to the front of my car. I drove around with it like that for days because I thought it was fucking hilarious. Depending on how you look at it, that can A) dent a perfect score, or B) just be a stupid thing that doesn't hinder your experience.
Admittedly the cab thing is a gameplay thing though, but if you're lenient enough with it to enjoy the rest of the game then (for me) it doesn't become a problem. Even then, it's enjoyed by some people when others dislike it (see above).
I should say though, reviews ruin games for me; if the reviews are amazing then I expect too much, I play the game and feel like the characters should be sticking their arms through the screen and pulling me in. I personally would rate Bioshock 10/10, it's one of the best games I've ever played, and yet a lot of people think it's average. If I'd reviewed that game there would have been a lot of pissed off people. So I don't think any game deserves to get 10/10 really, because there will always be somebody who disagrees.
The only things I find useful in a review are the facts, i.e. it sounds like a real NYC street, the dialogue is performed really well (although if you're an actor who's been in a million Hollywood films perhaps you would disagree with that so even that isn't fact).
Admittedly the cab thing is a gameplay thing though, but if you're lenient enough with it to enjoy the rest of the game then (for me) it doesn't become a problem. Even then, it's enjoyed by some people when others dislike it (see above).
I should say though, reviews ruin games for me; if the reviews are amazing then I expect too much, I play the game and feel like the characters should be sticking their arms through the screen and pulling me in. I personally would rate Bioshock 10/10, it's one of the best games I've ever played, and yet a lot of people think it's average. If I'd reviewed that game there would have been a lot of pissed off people. So I don't think any game deserves to get 10/10 really, because there will always be somebody who disagrees.
The only things I find useful in a review are the facts, i.e. it sounds like a real NYC street, the dialogue is performed really well (although if you're an actor who's been in a million Hollywood films perhaps you would disagree with that so even that isn't fact).
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BwA Spectre
Banned
- 19 August 2008
GTA IV was a very good game and deserved high 90's. Easily. I don't know what you're talking about. And about reviews, it's one thing to take 1,2,3 reviews as gospel but when you start looking at compiled reviews from gamerankings, metacritic, etc and start seeing an average of 93 from multiple reviews...maybe just maybe the game is that good! Am I making sense here? Or can 50+ review sites be crazy? Maybe they're on to something. FIFA has never fared very good on metacritic or elsewhere, only fair. Mow that it's averaging a 93, do you think that maybe there's a reason? :/. IMO, the haters and fanboys will always disagree and try to discredit their opposition but this time around it may be too obvios to deny FIFA credit. Even ign who are partners with konami gave it a 93! They had no other choice this time. Either they slate am obvious great game (according to reviewers) and risk losing more credibility or they just give in to the obvious truth. But, Im sure they'll give pes at least a 94 now. 
BwA Spectre
Banned
- 19 August 2008
ea aren't milking anything. Have you played 09? It was so feature rich and robust. Any extras were up to individuals to purchSe. You're talking bout old ea
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BwA Spectre
Banned
- 19 August 2008
they meant to lose touch. They moved in another direction. Stronger narrative/story driven, more mature/less Arcady. They succeeded big time. No more mindless actions and more plot. But then again Im 36 so this is what I appreciate in games.
Davies, totally agree bout Bioshock. One of my raves, if not, my fave. It's a deep game with super engrossing narrative. A game that takes you deeper and deeper. A game that could have been penned by Ayn Rand. Can't wait for the seco d one.
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Jess
Ballon D'Or
BwA Spectre
Banned
- 19 August 2008
What I like about metacritic is that it's not a review site. It just conveniently compiles reviews and averages out the score. If 50 reviewers give it an average of 93, chances are it's probably at least a 90. Look at all the best rated alltime games on metacritic: Bioshock, GtTA IV, GOW, Golden Eye, etc. All great games objectively speaking.
zeemeister
foxy engine
Exactly CD it all comes down to the individual.
Gta IV was a technical juggernaut, Liberty city was alive and bustling the physics engine was great and the general AI was immense.
But, it was a game I couldn't wait to get over and done with. Whereas with previous titles I would drive around for hours just flaffing around causing mayhem.
Gta IV was a technical juggernaut, Liberty city was alive and bustling the physics engine was great and the general AI was immense.
But, it was a game I couldn't wait to get over and done with. Whereas with previous titles I would drive around for hours just flaffing around causing mayhem.
Jamezinho
Golden Boot Winner
You had to pay for adidas live season if you wanted more than one league. Ultimate team was paid for DLC. Madden 10 is charging for boosts and extras, Tiger Woods is doing something similar (although I've not played it).
- Staff
- #53
He's been banned now. 
Retri
Banned
OP and everybody else, just fucking buy J.League Winning Eleven 2009 Club Championship for PS2 instead and quit the bitching already, whether you believe it or not it is actually better than PS3 PES2009/PES2010 Demo gameplay-wise and one helluva football game.
Nah i dont think they are milking at all, all they needed to do to pes 5 was niggles and they did that to make pes 6 brillinat.
The fact that with pes 2008 and 2009 were poor compared to ther normal releases is because they tried to change the game to make it better but back fired on them and maybey focused on the past generation consel a little to much, they have seen there mistakes and going back to there original plans (simulation) and also trying to use the same technigues that ea did to make there game better (feedback from fans). Pes 2010 will prove this as they know that they have made a big mistake and have done all they possiby could to try and correct that mistake an i think they have.
I think the definition for milking is fifa on last generation, the old producer of that must of been the most lazy guy on the planet (i like David Rutter alot by the way)but that gut must of though to himself what could i do to sell the same game every year and still get people to buy it, i know lets just get liscences an not let the other game have them (wanker).
Kind of back fired on them alot tho really, let alone pes rapped it for gameplay on longivity but man everyone i know loves edit mode, it gives you that felling of adding your own touches to your team, like you would watch the game on saturday and noticed a player had changed his boots or the new kit for next year has come out at the end of the season and in sted of waiting half a year you could get it pritty much very close in pes edit mode, just hope that they let us use the kits online this year from edit mode as online is finaly gana work, Im on about the ps3 user by the way, i know you can on pc.
The fact that with pes 2008 and 2009 were poor compared to ther normal releases is because they tried to change the game to make it better but back fired on them and maybey focused on the past generation consel a little to much, they have seen there mistakes and going back to there original plans (simulation) and also trying to use the same technigues that ea did to make there game better (feedback from fans). Pes 2010 will prove this as they know that they have made a big mistake and have done all they possiby could to try and correct that mistake an i think they have.
I think the definition for milking is fifa on last generation, the old producer of that must of been the most lazy guy on the planet (i like David Rutter alot by the way)but that gut must of though to himself what could i do to sell the same game every year and still get people to buy it, i know lets just get liscences an not let the other game have them (wanker).
Kind of back fired on them alot tho really, let alone pes rapped it for gameplay on longivity but man everyone i know loves edit mode, it gives you that felling of adding your own touches to your team, like you would watch the game on saturday and noticed a player had changed his boots or the new kit for next year has come out at the end of the season and in sted of waiting half a year you could get it pritty much very close in pes edit mode, just hope that they let us use the kits online this year from edit mode as online is finaly gana work, Im on about the ps3 user by the way, i know you can on pc.
The problem with PES / WE development was the irruption of next gen consoles, that´s the one an awfull truth. Konami didn´t get that special touch they got in PS2 in the new generation consoles. Quite strange thing tohappen because the potential of this machines is incredible, but the truth is that they haven´t released yet in PS3 or Xbox a decent version of the game (while PS2 versions continue to shine on and, reaching almost it´s limits, in some ways still evolves).
Renuncie montonero Seabass, Montonero Seabass renuncie!!! (shame on you Seabass)
Renuncie montonero Seabass, Montonero Seabass renuncie!!! (shame on you Seabass)
first go they had at next gen was great (pes6 on 360)
gameplay only that is
there was lots of features missing and online was very limited but gameplay itself was fantastic so it isn't so much next gen issue but simply konami going backwards.
going back to pes2010, it is broken game and there is no two ways about it, sure it can provide bit of fun mostly due to good shoting but rest is nothing more but joke as it stands and if you hear about settings having effect on gameplay speed it is going to be yet another year of broken online with lag and warping because gameplay speed will be out of sync on both ends and it was same reason why 2008/2009 was broken online and way i see it konami is telling us stories again just like last year with online being TOP PRIORITY, yeh sure it was........
i was mad at 2008 but i said "oh well it happens to the best" so then like idiot i got 2 copies of 2009 just to get burnt again but being big pes fan i still had some hope that 2010 would be solid but demo shows that they wasted whole year on things that don't matter much and would be fine left as they where
gameplay only that is
there was lots of features missing and online was very limited but gameplay itself was fantastic so it isn't so much next gen issue but simply konami going backwards.
going back to pes2010, it is broken game and there is no two ways about it, sure it can provide bit of fun mostly due to good shoting but rest is nothing more but joke as it stands and if you hear about settings having effect on gameplay speed it is going to be yet another year of broken online with lag and warping because gameplay speed will be out of sync on both ends and it was same reason why 2008/2009 was broken online and way i see it konami is telling us stories again just like last year with online being TOP PRIORITY, yeh sure it was........
i was mad at 2008 but i said "oh well it happens to the best" so then like idiot i got 2 copies of 2009 just to get burnt again but being big pes fan i still had some hope that 2010 would be solid but demo shows that they wasted whole year on things that don't matter much and would be fine left as they where
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liger05
Championship
Seabass:
Have these things happened?
Have these things happened?
gamingaccess
GamingAccess Community
Well, as always, FIFA releases the game a month before, so they are winning.
In theory, it's simple, change the schedule and move it one month forward.
But in real life, with FIFA being on the streets for 30 days before PES hits the market, FIFA will always sell more, unless they step it up.
I really don't understand it, they were so sure that they product was better, that they released it whenever they wanted, and yes, the game was better
but now, with FIFA being better in consoles, hmm, I guess they should follow the examples of NBA 2K10 vs NBA Live 2010, NHL 10 vs NHL 2K10
All of those games are released in the same week, so it makes sense, you pick the one you like the most
I already have FIFA 10 installed on my PC
When will I have PES 2010 installed? 30 days later?
If I wouldn't be a fanatic, I wouldn't even buy it, but yeah, as a business, they do fail a lot with the time release
Konami's biggest problem are not the pirates
It's their own schedule, there should be an angry boss
telling them to release the game on Oct 2nd
Daytripper
League 2
- 23 June 2008
- Everton
its all about the way pes 2010 moves and the general animation aspect i find so frustrating, i dont want it to be like FIFA 09/10 I want it to be Pro Evo Soccer with its own true quality animations, movement, ball physics. We've yet to see that on 360/PS3.
May be selfish but i get a tad frustrated at those who said the demo is amazing and the best thing ever, i'm not being horrible towards them as they are entitled to their opinion and respect that fact but I just cant grasp the amazing part and i wish so much to see what they are seeing, i just cant. Konami have made great strides graphically this year with minimal changes gameplay wise, terrible waste imo.
May be selfish but i get a tad frustrated at those who said the demo is amazing and the best thing ever, i'm not being horrible towards them as they are entitled to their opinion and respect that fact but I just cant grasp the amazing part and i wish so much to see what they are seeing, i just cant. Konami have made great strides graphically this year with minimal changes gameplay wise, terrible waste imo.