Are Konami guilty of milking or just living in the land of delusion?

hangar18

Non-League
28 November 2007
I've been a fan of PES since its ISS beginnings but have become disillusioned with the franchise since around PES3 or so. I do not wish to even comment on the shortcomings of this years update (particularly as I have done so repeatedly in the past) but instead will limit my remarks to speculate the possible causes of Konami's repeated disapointing releases.

Granted, its only a demo at this stage, but frankly anyone pinning their hopes on the final version being anything more than a 10% improvement is likely deceiving themselves. This version of PES would perhaps be more aptly named PES3 patch update 1.5.

I harbour two schools of thought on Konami's continued stance of implementing minimal changes in a series that has now stagnated almost beyond recognition. Konami are either greedy in a the extreme or devoid of all touch points in reality.

1. The "Konami is very greedy" school of thought

The continuous "we've made revolutionary changes this time, just you wait" mantra that spouts out of the Konami marketing dept (sorry propaganda machine) each year is a complete deception to milk profits from die hard consumers. Making little changes to gameplay results in fewer development costs paid to Seabass and his merry little band of software engineers. The time involved in making this years changes could well have been realised within a month and if they deem that sales are fairly inelastic in relation to gaming changes, then whats the point of spending money for the remaining 11 months of the year.

2. The "Konami view their customer's needs from an ivory tower" school of thought

I have long believed it would take something of a rocket up Konami's backside to force the changes that many have been crying out for. But you know, as I write this I find myself asking "would it really?". If Konami really are this detached from reality, it could mean that if sales fell to the point of really hurting, they may just shrug their shoulders and walk away from PES altogether. "We tried" they would say, "but the gaming consumers are too picky." The other possibility is something is repeatedly getting lost in the translation from the marketing/research dept to CEO to the software engineers. This happens all too often in my organisation and at times, with significant consequences.

Regardless of the category into which Konami falls, its fast becoming apparent that getting the right message through to them is a lost cause. And particularly so when they clearly do not listen, despite claiming to.

I fully support the stance of some in boycotting PES for the immediate future. And no, I wont be buying or recommending FIFA instead, which still is second rate (IMHO) compared to what PES could have and should been.

Its like the genius school kid who could have been a NASA scientist but never applied himself properly, never listened to advice, and now is languishing as a road sweeper.

Konami does this analogy resonate at all with you?

Probably not, which makes it all the more tragic.

btw: I do have some experience in game writing / development (e.g. www.cold-dawn.com) and hence the points made above reflect some of the considerations I have faced in the past, that would also be relevant to konami.
 
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@DagsJT: Thanks and yes there are some PES fans that seem to take any negative commentary about PES as some sort of personal insult. I do understand where they're coming from, having had to contend with, at times, a relentless barrage of "FIFA iz sooo much better coz its got cool menus" from the U12 brigade.
 
I'm sorry to say this but its the whole gaming industry milking, not just Konami :LOL:

Actually... Its not just the gaming industry, the whole money making industry is guilty of milking :LOL:
 
I think you raise valid points - they are hopeless at taking on consumer feedback and even worse at managing their PR. Why on earth they release these 'early builds' is beyond me.

What is equally bizarre is how close they seem to cut it when it comes to making final changes. It feels like Fifa has been finished since June whereas PES is still going through code iterations even now. The whole 'I've seen the latest build' conversation is embarrassing.

However I think it is a bit unfair to talk specifically about Konami here and not EA & Konami combined (although I guess this is a PES forum and you have mentioned EA's game to be 2nd rate).

Just to fill you in - I played PES 1 - 6, switched to Fifa 08 and 09 and then switched back to PES 2009. I switched back for a few key reasons:

1. Fifa shooting is simply ridiculous. I don't know anyone who scores from outside the box on a semi-regular basis (and yes, these goals do actually happen in real football on a semi-regular basis).

2. For all Fifa's skills and tricks, they are impossible to pull off instinctively when they require such finely executed analogue stick presses whilst holding down a shoulder button (maybe Fifa10 is better - I didn't play the demo for long enough)

3. In Fifa you STILL cannot change formations mid-game without pausing.

4. in Fifa you STILL cannot trigger an off-side trap with a single button action (it's a case of pressing the D-pad twice).


So yes - you don't deserve to be flamed and maybe my reply is technically off topic but for all the 25,000 improvements made in Fifa 08 and the 'revolutionary' changes in Fifa 09/10, I'm seeing exactly the same problems with EA's game and they haven't even conquered the basics in my opinion. Is Fifa 10 that much different to Fifa 09? Looks pretty similar to me.

My final issue is that I am beginning to become convinced that EA infiltrate these forums to spread negative PR about Konami - I can't point fingers but it seems very strange that PES games get so much stick when they really aren't that bad. Of course there is no proof but I work in online marketing/SEO/social media optimisation and, trust me, any marketing department plugged in to the matrix will be working the forum to spread their message.

It's pretty dirty stuff but we know for a fact that EA monitor forums like this very closely and, from my marketing experience, they won't be operating under a 'look but don't touch policy'.


EDIT: So I just went on the Demo Feedback thread and people have actually made video montages of bugs in PES2010. Fair points but sorry but does anyone actually have the time to whip out their video camera, open up the cutting software, encode into mp4 and upload to youtube?.... unless they are working for EA?
 
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1. Fifa shooting is simply ridiculous. I don't know anyone who scores from outside the box on a semi-regular basis (and yes, these goals do actually happen in real football on a semi-regular basis).
Then you should play the FIFA 10 demo. The shooting is excellent.


2. For all Fifa's skills and tricks, they are impossible to pull off instinctively when they require such finely executed analogue stick presses whilst holding down a shoulder button (maybe Fifa10 is better - I didn't play the demo for long enough)
I feel that the easy ones (step-overs, body feints etc.) are easy, the rest not so easy shouldn't be easy, because they aren't in real life.

3. In Fifa you STILL cannot change formations mid-game without pausing.
True, but it isn't on my top concerns. But yes, it would be nice and the whole tactics section could be more easily managable.

4. in Fifa you STILL cannot trigger an off-side trap with a single button action (it's a case of pressing the D-pad twice).
I would think that would only be a thing that you have to get used to, and once you get it it's not so irritating. But I see your point, it can completely screw the offside trap if done too late.

So yes - you don't deserve to be flamed and maybe my reply is technically off topic but for all the 25,000 improvements made in Fifa 08 and the 'revolutionary' changes in Fifa 09/10, I'm seeing exactly the same problems with EA's game and they haven't even conquered the basics in my opinion. Is Fifa 10 that much different to Fifa 09? Looks pretty similar to me.
Now you're just embarrasing yourself. The gameplay has always been in the focus and the tactical side is one of the few that has been some what neglected, but if you don't see the big differences it's because you don't want to see them.

My final issue is that I am beginning to become convinced that EA infiltrate these forums to spread negative PR about Konami - I can't point fingers but it seems very strange that PES games get so much stick when they really aren't that bad. Of course there is no proof but I work in online marketing/SEO/social media optimisation and, trust me, any marketing department plugged in to the matrix will be working the forum to spread their message.

It's pretty dirty stuff but we know for a fact that EA monitor forums like this very closely and, from my marketing experience, they won't be operating under a 'look but don't touch policy'.
:SHOCK::FAIL:

EDIT: So I just went on the Demo Feedback thread and people have actually made video montages of bugs in PES2010. Fair points but sorry but does anyone actually have the time to whip out their video camera, open up the cutting software, encode into mp4 and upload to youtube?.... unless they are working for EA?
Are you kidding?:BRICK:

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I think KONAMI got too complacent after PES5/6, and never really thought of the possibility that they would have any serious competition any time soon. They had to invest so little money and still sell great, so of course they continued with that. Now that they are being challenged they have a hard time catching up just like many other asian developers this generation. They don't know how to bring it up a level besides tweaking what's already there.
 
I'm sorry to say this but its the whole gaming industry milking, not just Konami :LOL:

Actually... Its not just the gaming industry, the whole money making industry is guilty of milking :LOL:

Exactly. Halo anyone? The new ODST game was originally intended to be a £10 DLC (or whatever that is in points) and is now a full £40 game due to the high demand. Nothing has changed from the original, just the price tag.

I've been watching a walk-through of it this morning and you can tell by the length of the game is was only meant to be DLC, aside from all the other issues it's having with the graphics/framerate and the fact that Bungie seem to have given up on the Halo story, it's awful.
 
I just think they had troubles developing their ps3 360 code, came up with a poor game like 2008, decided to seel anyway even if it was an embarrasing one. From that point since the competitor had a good game they decided to stick with it since developing a new one was not an option time/resource wise.
 
@Lami: Thats very true but Konami have had 10+ attempts to get some relatively simple changes pushed through and by and large have failed. EA on the other hand keep flogging a dead horse, although I do acknowledge the improvements in recent years. Then again, they were starting from a fairly low point, so the cynic would argue the only way was up :)

@DavidBushel: Yes to an extent EA should be tarred with the same brush as Konami BUT, in EA's case they are flogging a dead horse. Their whole game engine likely needs to be ditched and rebuilt. This in theory should be far harder to accomplish than the relatively simple changes Konami need to make to give PES fans what they want. This what I find quite unacceptable and frustrating with Konami. They have the guts of a great game but let themselves (and their fans) down repeatedly with poor execution in a number of areas. Furthermore, it constantly astonishes me that they seem more intent on bending over backwards to fix up the laggy online than the basics. Its a bit like employing all available resources to to plug a 1 inch hole in a ship, when all the while a hole the size of the titanic's is letting in galons of water.

Konami essentially have a Rolls Royce engine, Rolls Royce tyres, Rolls Royce interior but for reasons best known to themselves have employed picasso paintwork to the body.

EA on the other hand, have what looks like a rolls royce, smells like a rolls royce, but drives like a tank owing to the internal bus engine.

Even with its recent improvements, there just isnt something right about FIFA's gameplay that, in particular, makes scoring goals far less enjoyable than in PES.
 
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Leo - I'm prepared to admit that I haven't given Fifa 10 the full attention I should to make judgements on it so I'll take your word for it on the shooting but how does that slip under the headlines? How can we praise a game that has taken this many years to actually have a shooting system that works yet flame PES?

RE: Off-side trap & formation changing. Personally it's a big one for me. What's the point in the tactical sliders if you can't do the basics? But fair enough we seem to agree that the tactical side is somewhat neglected.

RE: my somewhat ambitious speculation about EA's use of forums. Who knows what happens behind the scenes but what I am saying is that, as someone who works in exactly this type of marketing, this shit happens and the joke is on anyone who really believes it doesn't. Of course I can't accuse EA of doing this but I can tell you that this sort of activity does happen in some industries. I would be interested to hear any counter-arguments.

Anyway - point is Konami do need to buck their PR ideas up a bit - whether it's forum related or other... and they do need an US/British version of David Rutter to do some talking for them.

RE: demo montage videos... all I am saying is that I have way better things to do than make videos like that and my expectation of the average person is the same.
 
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@Lami: Thats very true but Konami have had 10+ attempts to get some relatively simple changes pushed through and by and large have failed. EA on the other hand keep flogging a dead horse, although I do acknowledge the improvements in recent years. Then again, they were starting from a fairly low point, so the cynic would argue the only way was up :)

@DavidBushel: Yes to an extent EA should be tarred with the same brush as Konami BUT, in EA's case they are flogging a dead horse. Their whole game engine likely needs to be ditched and rebuilt. This in theory should be far harder to accomplish than the relatively simple changes Konami need to make to give PES fans what they want. This what I find quite unacceptable and frustrating with Konami. They have the guts of a great game but let themselves (and their fans) down repeatedly with poor execution in a number of areas. Furthermore, it constantly astonishes me that they seem more intent on bending over backwards to fix up the laggy online than the basics. Its a bit like employing all available resources to to plug a 1 inch hole in a ship, when all the while a hole the size of the titanic's is letting in galons of water.

Konami essentially have a Rolls Royce engine, Rolls Royce tyres, Rolls Royce interior but for reasons best known to themselves have employed picasso paintwork to the body.

EA on the other hand, have what looks like a rolls royce, smells like a rolls royce, but drives like a tank owing to the internal bus engine.

Even with its recent improvements, there just isnt something right about FIFA's gameplay that, in particular, makes scoring goals far less enjoyable than in PES.
Did I magically travel back to 2006 before I read that post? I really hope so...

For the ones not getting it: EA has a new engine (2-3 years) that they show that they year after year can enhance. KONAMI has a engine from the stone age (not completely re-written since PES2 (?)) and has shown that they aren't able to enhance it further than they were 3-4 years ago.

Lami - I'm prepared to admit that I haven't given Fifa 10 the full attention I should to make judgements on it so I'll take your word for it on the shooting but how does that slip under the headlines? How can we praise a game that has taken this many years to actually have a shooting system that works yet flame PES?
I wouldn't say it hasn't been complained about. It has, and therefore also changed. It's one area of many, and the whole package of FIFA as been so compelling that they win over the niggles. I've recently change to FIFA, but I think that the shooting from long-range was a new problem in FIFA 09, and worked better in 08. And please, if you want to truly give FIFA a go, play with fully (at least mainly) manual controls. I really think that anyone giving it enough time to master it or at least get a glimpse of it's magic won't go back to PES afterwards.

RE: my somewhat ambitious speculation about EA's use of forums. Who knows what happens behind the scenes but what I am saying is that, as someone who works in exactly this type of marketing, this shit happens and the joke is on anyone who really believes it doesn't. I would be interested to hear any counter-arguments..
I really don't think they need to bash PES. They have a great game and they know it. Hell, if you've seen some interviews with David Rutter for example, he is so polite in every answer concerning PES that it almost gets a bit too nice. They could smash their more advanced technology in everyones faces and make everybody see how PES is out-dated in many ways, but they don't because they focus on the game itself. Now, yes, behind the scenes is a completely different thing but I can't see any reason for them to write bad stuff about PES on boards read by a total of maybe 0,0001% of the potential buyers, most of them which already has their mind set up of which game they prefer and is extremely critical to any offensive posts.

RE: demo montage videos... all I am saying is that I have way better things to do than make videos like that and my expectation of the average person is the same.
Well, the average person/gamer isn't the one reading demo impressions on a forum..;)
 
Did I magically travel back to 2006 before I read that post? I really hope so...

For the ones not getting it: EA has a new engine (2-3 years) that they show that they year after year can enhance. KONAMI has a engine from the stone age (not completely re-written since PES2 (?)) and has shown that they aren't able to enhance it further than they were 3-4 years ago.

I was talking about EA's new engine which is still inferior (admitedly, IMO) to the (albeit antiquated) PES one. My point is, the PES one only needs relatively minor tweaks with major (but relatively simple to implement) tweaks to presentation, ML format etc.

The message to EA is you cant make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. All they have done with the latest engine is remove the bad odour, but the FIFA gamer is still essentially left holding a sow's ear.
 
I was talking about EA's new engine which is still inferior (admitedly, IMO) to the (albeit antiquated) PES one. My point is, the PES one only needs relatively minor tweaks with major (but relatively simple to implement) tweaks to presentation, ML format etc.

The message to EA is you cant make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. All they have done with the latest engine is remove the bad odour, but the FIFA gamer is still essentially left holding a sow's ear.

Then I'd say that you haven't given it a chance on proper settings, but I guess we'll have to completely disagree then.
 
Then I'd say that you haven't given it a chance on proper settings, but I guess we'll have to completely disagree then.

I've given it a chance on proper settings, having bought, owned and played for considerable time the games which use their new engine, and I have to conclude it's highly flawed.

If it didn't feel so nice to pass the ball around, I don't think I'd ever bother picking up the pad to play fifa again.
 
@hanger18.
no ones guilty of anything. Business is business and if it sells you dont need to change anything.
Konami, EA, Rockstar you name it they are in this industry to make money, not please the masses. However, as you pointed out the power still lies with the consumer.
 
I totally and wholeheartedly concur with Hangar18's original
assessment. I just recently began playing FIFA again after ten years
of playing PES/ISS/WE, I find it to be the ultimate irony that PES
fans are now defending PES the way FIFA fans defended FIFA games
during the late 90s and early 2000s iterations. Those that have been
in the soccer gaming community that long remember that back then, PES/
WE/ISS was so obviously the superior game in terms of gameplay that FIFA fans only avenue of defense was to point out PES' little niggles and FIFA's superior graphical (we have real jerseys!) and presentation features. I never in a million years would have thought that only ten years later the shoe would be on the other foot. I am not being sarcastic, I really mean that. PES fans now tout PES 2010's better looking jerseys, better looking faces, better graphics, etc, same as the old FIFA fans used to. I am no fan boy, merely a realist. I supported Konami for a very, long time, but at some point you MUST be a consumer and speak with your wallet. I have been talking about this year being the best ever in the history of soccer gaming. I thought PES would put forward the game that next gen systems and PES fans deserve and that FIFA would take FIFA 09 to the next level with FIFA 10. Facts are facts, I'm sorry if you disagree. I have played both demos for hours and hours since their release and find that PES 2010 is NO WHERE NEAR the revolutionary game that we were all expecting. I was really rooting for PES this year and am really disappointed. It is merely better than PES 2009, which isn't saying much. FIFA on the other hand have taken a great game, listened to their commmunity and improved everything the fans moaned about and then some. FIFA will get my dime this year. I hope that Konami can really produce something worthy of my money next year.
 
Yes, they are guilty of taking advantage of the fanbase they built up.
They make enough money by doing graphic enhancements and gameplay patches to the previous version year after year... why bother putting more effort in?
The sales of PES 08 show just how much of an easy job Konami have to make money.

There's been no real innovation since PES3 PS2, it still uses the same gameplay engine to this day.
 
@bertkamp16. You kind of summed up the situation with one word "DEFEND" why the fuck must anyone defend their preference. I happened to prefer PES2009 to FIFA 09 along with many others.
Also according to Hanger18 Fifa is 2nd grade. You agree with this too?
 
I bought Fight Night Round 4 the other day as my other big passion is Boxing.

I didnt purchase it immediately after hearing bad reports of glitches that have now been resolved. EA's presentation of that game is nothing short of stunning. Everything about the game is brilliant, nothing more so than the option to download created fighters uploaded by other people. Brilliant. But what did piss me off is that I have to pay £4.95 to unlock one of my favourite fighters to play in the game, Oscar De La Hoya ??

WTF ?? Oscar, Hopkins and about 4 other fighters come as DLC ??

Thats what I call fucking milking the consumer. It's a joke.
 
I bought Fight Night Round 4 the other day as my other big passion is Boxing.

I didnt purchase it immediately after hearing bad reports of glitches that have now been resolved. EA's presentation of that game is nothing short of stunning. Everything about the game is brilliant, nothing more so than the option to download created fighters uploaded by other people. Brilliant. But what did piss me off is that I have to pay £4.95 to unlock one of my favourite fighters to play in the game, Oscar De La Hoya ??

WTF ?? Oscar, Hopkins and about 4 other fighters come as DLC ??

Thats what I call fucking milking the consumer. It's a joke.
I agree, and i'm very worried about this sort of thing... could set a dangerous precedent whereby we get incomplete games and then get spoon-fed extra paid-for content in the months after release.

I don't like DLC particularly, it's fair enough when it's like GTA IV Lost & Damned (almost a new game), but things like cars in driving games, boxers in Fight Night and stuff like that isn't acceptable to charge for imo - as I said you're basically paying full price for half a game and then paying another £15+ usually for the rest of it.

The worst DLC of all though are the "cheating" ones, where you get "boosts" or everything unlocked - Tiger Woods has a DLC where you can buy an instantly maxed out stats golfer, which can be used online! What a load of shit! Anyone who plays the game properly (by going through challenged/career) to improve their player will always get beaten by some tosser who paid money to skip that...
In FIFA 10 there are stat "boosts" which you can buy for your "Virtual Pro", and you can use that player online and on Madden you can pay real money to get the top coaches for your team...

:RANT:
 
@bertkamp16. You kind of summed up the situation with one word "DEFEND" why the fuck must anyone defend their preference. I happened to prefer PES2009 to FIFA 09 along with many others.
Also according to Hanger18 Fifa is 2nd grade. You agree with this too?

Please be civil with the language. No one "must" defend their preference,
I'm merely pointing out that they do defend that choice.
 
What's funny about asking someone to be civil? Seems like a curious thing to laugh about...

I don't decide whether it's civil that people defend thier choices or not, like I said, I'm merely pointing put that they do.
 
What's funny about asking someone to be civil? Seems like a curious thing to laugh about...

I don't decide whether it's civil that people defend thier choices or not, like I said, I'm merely pointing put that they do.

It's funny to me because I didn't realise how uncivilised I am. Oh well we learn something new everyday.
the point I am trying to make is that people shouldn't have to be in a position to defend what they like.
 
It's funny to me because I didn't realise how uncivilised I am. Oh well we learn something new everyday.
the point I am trying to make is that people shouldn't have to be in a position to defend what they like.

learning is growing :)

I do disagree with you though. Defending your position is just part and parcel of the give and take of debate. For example, someone comes into the thread, says FIFA 10 is better than PES 2010. It is now incumbent upon them to defend that position when it is questioned. Give and take. :) everyone does their own opinion though and I respect that. I just want people to be civil in thier discourse. Cursing at other in forums is unnecessary and detracts from your position.
 
Good point about defending/justifying opinions, it annoys me when people say things but don't elaborate.

Like the OP in this thread hasn't explained why he thinks PES' ancient engine is supposedly better than FIFA's recently made one... Why's it better?

I disagree that the PES engine is better BECAUSE it lacks a good animation system, collision system (ball on player and player on ball), proper manual controls and noticeable 360 degree movement.
The last two are the two major points for me, because they mean you have very little freedom and make the game very restrictive, that was acceptable a few years ago, but hardware has moved on, the PES software has not...
 
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