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What is it Konami do all year long?

Discussion in 'Winning Eleven' started by beachryan, 10 July 2005.

  1. beachryan

    beachryan Golden Boot Winner

    4 July 2003
    Bermuda
    Quick preface, I love these games, have been playing since WE6. But here is my question: What has really changed?

    WE6 was masterful. PS2 amazement. Great models, fantastic gameplay, realistic looking animation. Awesome, simply wonderful. Okay good job Konami, take the rest of the year off. Make some adjustments, allow shirt editing, couple more perfections, WE6:FE. Best footie game ever created.

    WE7. Make some tweaks. Adjust the AI a little. Add a couple animations. Work on the master league a bit, but not too much. Oh and maybe up the team # to about 1/100 of other games. Okay cool.

    WE7:Int. Make the headers a bit better. Maybe the shooting too.

    WE8: Couple more animations, smoother gameplay. I think they slowed it down a bit. AI improved a bit. Actually got a couple liscenses.

    WE8:LE: Big revolution, online play. That I will credit as a masterful and probably very taxing achievement. Though almost every sports game released now is also online, so I guess everyone else is doing it too.


    Essentially Konami released a great product over 3 years ago (is it 4?). They then tweaked that product over the next few years. That's it. I mean, this is a full on development team. What do they do all year long?

    Before everyone jumps to their defence, I was thinking about this because other franchises really do change. A bunch of EA games have completely changed engines 2 or 3 times in the same time. And those were good games (NBA Live for example) to start with. Konami adds some new growth curves in the master league? Phenomenal.

    Its just really frustating, cause they are clearly amazing at what the ydo, but they only seem to turn on the effort once every 4 years or so.
     
  2. jumbo

    jumbo Premiership

    30 May 2003
    WE Heaven
    Yea of corse the first game on the new system is stunnin and breath takin because you ve never seen taht stuff before.

    Once they have the right engine, foundation, basics, they can keep on improvin that and addin other stuff.

    Do you want them to make a different game every year? I don't think so.

    The truth is, we will only exp something amazingly new once a generation (ps3, p4, etc.). They rest is just improvin and expandin of the tried and workin forumla.
     
  3. Sulph

    Sulph Goodbye...

    28 September 2003
    They have to work on other games too!
     
  4. Derfil

    Derfil Big Boss

    6 July 2004
    Here
    A.C. Milan
    ya, there are other games :)
    Metal gear, One of the best series ever !
    CastelVania , same thing !
    and many more ..........
     
  5. k1llu

    k1llu Non-League

    29 March 2005
    soo fuckin what!! They need to start marking some real change. I remember when I got w8 my bro could not tell the difference between we7i.every year they release this games with 10% improvement they need to start making some improvement u will notice within 1 min of playin this game am tired of playin 6 star from the start.
     
  6. muffinmak

    muffinmak Conference

    26 June 2003
    last night i experimented and loaded up all the previous WEs starting from WE5. I noticed that WE5 was pretty unplayable with the controls feeling extremely sluggish. It feels very similar to the PSone's WE2002 with the exception of not being able to choose exactly where you shoot.

    WE5FE was slightly improved with more 3D models but still seemed rather flat, i feel i have a bit more control over my shooting. The animations are rather bland and half-hearted compared to the ones in WE2002.....just doesnt feel as dynamic. The controls are smoother..but still a bit sluggish. The through balls are too dominant.

    Couldnt find my WE6, however from what i remember, they had the first impressive overhaul in the graphics dept. The player models has a lot more depth and solidity towards them and they got the body proportions right. Gameplay also got the first significant facelift. I get a great deal more control over my players in terms of dribbling, heading and passing, the sluggishness gone and everything more crisp. This is may also be the only version i feel is the least scripted. There was a lot of bad/weird bounces of the ball-- while it may not be the most realistic in terms of physics--it certainly gave me another dimension of enjoyment. I also remember this version got almost all the player faces nailed. Theres nothing too much to complain about the balance and gameplay, however one almost fatal downpoint is the monotonous/shit shooting animations or should i say the serious lack of acceptable shooting animations.This greatly reduced my enjoyment recieved.

    Then just when you'd thought the next version would be even better...they came up with WE6FE which in my view was utterly dissapointing. I forgot what enhancements they introduced...but there is absolutely no excuse in screwing up the body proportions. I was gutted when i saw the players with buffalo-like upper body, whereas their legs are obviously stubbed and cut short. Secondly i think for some reason they tweaked the perfect player faces once again and this time for the worst. But perhaps the most unforgivable offence was to make the players (most notably veiri, kluivert and adriano) unstoppable. There is just no way to pull/slow/stop the running player even with 3-4 defenders. Thus I cannot forget the countless times i have barged through (just running in a straight line with no skill) whole teams and scored right from the kickoff (including my very first game on it).

    WE7 had great changes in graphics, they changed the entire game engine...fixed the player body proportions. They had a lot more faces however still couldnt reach the quality they had before in WE6. From my memory it was a pretty decent advancement, however coming back from WE8LE, last night i noticed that the controls were strangely sluggish. The game seems a lot more scripted and the players seem to 'glide' all over the pitch. The shooting was pretty crap not to mention the animations for them. I feel minimal control and power in my shots especially long-mid range ones. The headers were shit, theres no power and dynamism in them at all and they float stiffly in the air and spines leaned backwards while connecting with the ball. Okay enough of that....

    So after an 'unbearable' 15 min on WE7 i stuck in WE7I. Controls slightly improved, however players still 'glide' and overall feels scripted. I noticed that the ball glides along the ground with no slight bobble whatsoever during passing. Control in my shooting is also restricted.

    WE8 had another graphical overhaul. Best graphics till then. Lots of player faces. Introduced growth. Controls a lot more crisp, however still feels a bit scripted for some reason. The rest you guys judge for yourself... same goes to WE8LE.

    So what i can conclude is that Konami did put in alot of effort in the graphics department most notably from WE5-WE6, WE6 - 7 and then WE7-8. In terms of control and gameplay i cant say that they havent made enough changes, however it seems that it is not only until WE8LE that they got it right. I understand they always have to experiment with differnent gameplay stuff, however i hope they could do better evaluations of what actually needs to be improved/tweaked after each version since they seemed to have turned a full circle throughout all these versions.
     
  7. martinja

    martinja Guest

    Well, dont fix something that is not broken. I think they prefer to experiment with few things than risking breaking a great game.
     
  8. ActionHank

    ActionHank Non-League

    11 December 2002
    Toronto, Canada
    I find it quite funny that you're wondering what it is that Konami does when the Winning Eleven franchise is probably the only series in the history of videogames that consistently sees at least 3 revisions in a year, and sometimes 4.

    First of all, they make the new version 5-6, 6-7, etc. They don't opt for wholesale changes because their game is not rubbish to begin with, and they don't rely on gimmicks, like EA. With each revision of FIFA we see new 'enhancements' that do very little to improve the poor excuse for football on offer. EA gives us a new 'air play' system, or introduces 'total control' with R3 joystick movement... but the game is still crap.

    So Konami work on tweaking things from previous versions, all the while trying to maintain the largely superb balance of the series as a whole.

    Then they localise for Europe.

    Then they enhance the localised version for re-release in Japan.

    And sometimes, they make a game dedicated to the J-League.

    Compare all that work to the development cycle of other sports franchises and you see why some of the changes might seem more substantial. They take an entire year and make one game. But honestly, few are still as good as WE.
     
  9. Slobber

    Slobber boycotting PES

    3 August 2003
    Merseyside, England
    Liverpool FC


    Plenty is broken about the series. Not only is plenty broken, the same things are broken year after year and don't seem to ever get fixed.
     
  10. Slobber

    Slobber boycotting PES

    3 August 2003
    Merseyside, England
    Liverpool FC


    Yeah I agree. Other non football games out there have made massive improvements over prequels, yet we're still running around in 8 directions like analog sticks haven't even been invented. I refuse to believe the PS2 can't handle 360 player movement either. Fucking Playstation 1 games have it!
     
    Last edited: 10 July 2005
  11. Revan

    Revan out the window

    8 August 2003
    Madeira, Portugal.
    FC Porto
    Stop complaining. You don't like the game, then change to EA's FIFA.
     
  12. martinja

    martinja Guest

    Doesnt have to be 360, 64 even is a good step from 8.
     
  13. Slobber

    Slobber boycotting PES

    3 August 2003
    Merseyside, England
    Liverpool FC
    Typical fanboy reply. I won't go and play Fifa, and if no one complained about these things, then nothing would get fixed.
     
  14. Revan

    Revan out the window

    8 August 2003
    Madeira, Portugal.
    FC Porto
    Translate that! fanboy?

    I heard that konami goes to the caribeans spend the money they got from us, buyers. And 2 or 3 times a year they just release a game out of nowhere, which is better than the previous one. And MGS is EA's property! I'm pretty sure.


    ...dumb discussion...
    ... and don't translate... cause i'm not gonna read this thread again...
     
  15. Slobber

    Slobber boycotting PES

    3 August 2003
    Merseyside, England
    Liverpool FC
    Eh?
     
  16. WE7

    WE7 Guest

    i wish konami make a hand ball game same winning eleven they will rock and really its underrated game i dont know why until now no good games company made a game same real life for hand ball !!! also Volley ball plzz konami plzz ! i think there is an old volly ball game on the sega mega drive or snes called Hyper Volly ball it was nice for last games so konami think about more sport games plzz !!
     
  17. nazzo

    nazzo League 1

    1 August 2003
    Kuwait
    They do the hokey pokey.
     
  18. Pretiseg

    Pretiseg Guest


    I have been saying this for years only to be told to shut up by certain narrow minded fools. Best thought out game in my opinion was ISS N64. Me and my mates still play it because it's control system is so deep, WE8LE still is no where near in terms of control. Too damn deep for the masses.
     
  19. plumbers_x

    plumbers_x Guest

    They play FIFA, suck gooseberries and smoke fish.
     
  20. muffinmak

    muffinmak Conference

    26 June 2003
    spot on plumbers !!!

    I wonder if they will come out with a much improved game if we gave them 1-2 years producing a new version or would they still come out with something as of now.
     
  21. Slobber

    Slobber boycotting PES

    3 August 2003
    Merseyside, England
    Liverpool FC

    Although it was arcadey, ISS on the N64 is less flawed than PES/WE. You could make lovely little runs in to gaps that PES doesn't let you do because of the crap 8 directional running. Tackling was better because directing your player towards your opponent was easier because you didn't have to run in ridiculous 45 degree angles and because you had to skillfully time the tackles yourself instead of just pressing X. If Konami took the old N64 games, and tweaked them to make them play more realistically, it'd beat the living shit out of PES/WE.
     
    Last edited: 10 July 2005
  22. timsmith10000

    timsmith10000 LEICESTER CITY!

    18 August 2003
    Leicester
    I played a 4 player game of pes4 last night 2 v 2. What a game! These are the moments you buy the game for! It was me with my 3 other brothers - lots of rivalry! So many amazing moments in the game, for example there were countless times when the ball was just a haze in the box with legs and arms flying everywhere, then the balls finally goes in. Me and my bro sitting down quietly shaking our heads while i see my other two brothers running round screaming, and they are 26 and 27! I think this is the best thing about the game, it is so absorbing and puts you through everything like all games should. Every pes game i have bought has done this (maybe except pes2) and i hope to god pes5 does it as well. All the family come round at christmas and the most people i have had playing in one game was 6!

    I do agree with people about the 360' movement. As when you are running there are bits of the ground that are kind of impossible to walk on, as it seems that you are running on preset lines. If they did add the free movement then it would be awesome.

    Also has anybody here actually watched the computer v computer? I was playing my brother at a different time and we were the goalkeepers on either side (using the fixed mode) And watching the cpu playing without to much off our involvement (apart from a few world class saves!) it just shows you how realistic the game is, and when the graphics to become lifelike (as in killzone for ps3) I really think that it will resemble a real game.

    Games that dont involve you in my opinion are not worth playing. pes and things like resident evil actually make you feel like it is you as the character. I think that thats what matters most, not a few licensed kits. If they didnt improve it then you wouldnt be playing the game for 12 months untill the next one comes out. The update the game enough to keep you buying the new one. Even if they could make the perfect game after a year interval (which they cant) what would be the point? They would have nothing to improve on.

    LONG LIVE PES/WE!
     
  23. Madrileno

    Madrileno EVIVA LA LIGAAAA

    18 June 2005
    MALTA
    Real Madrid
    Konami has the winning formula , they have the best soccer game on the market so there is no chance of them changing the game engine or something and they reduce themself to improving it a little year after year.

    I agree that they improve the game with a slow rate altough im prerry sure they already have plans for the future but the only thing that will make them improve the game faster is competion from other games and as we all know EA FIFA is not a competition enough.

    So if EA do some real effort in improving their gameplay we should be happy. as simple as that.
     
  24. muffinmak

    muffinmak Conference

    26 June 2003
    if only some programmer is competent enough to push Konami all the way......
     
  25. plumbers_x

    plumbers_x Guest

    They besically just piss around with the gameplay unitl the next next-gen console comes along. WE9 will offer the least value for money in the WE/PES series of games on PS2. They have run out of ideas and capacity in terms of real gameplay improvements on the PS2 and WE9 will just be more scripted football along the same lines as the awful WE8LE.

    I think we all know that, with WE9/PES5, they're just cashing in on the public's need for an "annual release", and, of course, anyone with an IQ of more than 3 knows that WE10 will be the next step forward, followed by 3 or 4 versions of tweaks until PS4 comes along.
     
  26. jumbo

    jumbo Premiership

    30 May 2003
    WE Heaven
    What kinds of improvemnts do you people want anyway?

    Football is a pretty simple game. Most of whatever you can do in real life you can do in this game..

    You cannot make bigger improvements without changing the core gameplay and then you might as well call it a different game altogether..
     
  27. Derfil

    Derfil Big Boss

    6 July 2004
    Here
    A.C. Milan
    in short lines :

    they get GirlS :D and Beers :D and Watch Ronaldinho :D
     
  28. aussiepesfan

    aussiepesfan Premiership

    17 April 2002
    Thats a very big call.. and totally wrong!!
    I bought a second hand n64 just to play ISS2000 (which was the last and best iss on nintendo64).. and i remember the days i used to rave about it etc... but i was totally disappointed.. i cant see how people.. after playing we8le can still go back n play games like this.. its a huge leap back..
    The only good point u make (if u actually made it) is that the WE series should steal great ideas from previous great soccer games.. eg. 360 degree movement or the quick taking of a penalty (quickly place ball down and pass it off) which were in iss2000... this would make WE unstoppable.. but just be patient... one step at a time.

    And yesterday, i playd about 15mins with all my old we games.. ie. we6 - we6fe - we7 - we7int - we8 (didnt bother) - we8le...

    conclusion..no way in hell am i going back to play anything except we8le.. and occasionally we7int (only cause it has absolutely no slowdown, and a veiw im really fond of which isnt in we8le)..

    I love the way konami work at it.. making sure they dont fk up a great game, adding slight improvements each year... if anything the only thing that id like to see is for konami to make only one universal game each year (whichd include the jleague teams for the jap market).. but i can see why they come out with so many versions each year.. its due to MONEY.. and without it, they couldnt make this great game in the first place.

    lets just focus on the positives of this game..and be happy :)
    i guess if u wanna whinge..u can.. i guess its a message forum where people share their views.. either way im happy :)
     
  29. aussiepesfan

    aussiepesfan Premiership

    17 April 2002
    Good point.. there are no games to really push the Konami WE team..
    instead.. Fifa have to keep doing the real big changes etc cause they are so far behind and the only way to catch up the slightest is for huge change and risks...

    either way.. im on Konami's side of taking one step at a time.. and getting the job done well before moving on..
     
  30. Mauras

    Mauras Premiership

    7 October 2002
    A typical day at KCET (Konami):

    9h - Arriving at the office. A poster of EA FIFA makes everyone laugh, but also makes everyone enter the office with that "we already have it" feeling.

    10h - They visit the foruns looking to any decent suggestion by european fans to... include them in the "never to do" list. "Europeans?! dumb people!".

    11h - Marketing meeting: Konami decides on how to break the Guiness world record for the number of releases of the same product in one year: they finally found the winning formula:
    - WE9 (august)
    - WE9 + (september)
    - WE 9 for european dummies (aka PES5) (october)
    - WE9 JLeague (november)
    - WE9 Zwaziland League (December)
    - WE9 ++ (January)
    - WE9 International (february)
    - WE9 Liveware Evolution (march)
    - WE9 Final Evolution (April)
    - W9 Let-us-see-if-we-can-foul-some Evolution (May).

    - 13h - Lunch time. The whole crew goes to a nearby hamburgsushi restaurant while the receive sms from Konami spy at EA telling them all about the latest ridiculous decisions by the canadian studio to make FIFA even more ridiculous.

    - 14h - The crew meet to decide priorities for WE9 and the reach a decision:

    1 - Encoding and Encription to avoid patching
    2 - Combo dribbles
    3 - Removing nice features from previous versions
    4 - More Combo dribbles
    5 - Destroying headers and crosses, we don't use that in japanese soccer, we are tiny
    6 - Playability
    7 - Graphics
    8 - Rosters & Database (what?)


    - 16h-19h - The rest of the afternoon is spent deciding what Konami can invent to make kit decription something that gives rippers more than 2 days work - it's the top priority in the company.

    - 20h - KCET crew leave the office filled with fullfilment and enthusiasm.
     

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