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Valdano speaks the truth

Discussion in 'Football' started by gomito#10, 8 May 2007.

  1. gomito#10

    gomito#10 World Cup Winner

    9 May 2003
    DC, USA
    Football is made up of subjective feeling, of suggestion - and, in that, Anfield is unbeatable. Put a s*** hanging from a stick in the middle of this passionate, crazy stadium and there are people who will tell you it's a work of art. It's not: it's a s*** hanging from a stick,' he wrote in Spanish newspaper Marca.

    'Chelsea and Liverpool are the clearest, most exaggerated example of the way football is going: very intense, very collective, very tactical, very physical, and very direct.

    'But, a short pass? No. A feint? No. A change of pace? No. A one-two? A nutmeg? A backheel? Don't be ridiculous. None of that. The extreme control and seriousness with which both teams played the semi-final neutralised any creative licence, any moments of exquisite skill.'

    The lives of Mourinho and Benitez have crossed in a world that is ever more scrutinised and exposed by the media, which is why they look at each other with such distrust.

    'But they have two things in common: a previously denied, hitherto unsatisfied hunger for glory, and a desire to have everything under control.

    'Both of those things stem from one key factor: neither Mourinho nor Benitez made it as a player. That has made them channel all their vanity into coaching.

    'Those who did not have the talent to make it as players do not believe in the talent of players, they do not believe in the ability to improvise in order to win football matches. In short, Benitez and Mourinho are exactly the kind of coaches that Benitez and Mourinho would have needed to have made it as players.'
  2. Stan

    Stan Allez les Lionceaux !!!

    12 September 2002
    Who the fuck is Valdano???? (i know who he is...)
    In sports winners always are right...
    When the CL final will be played who will care about the moments of brilliance by Ronaldo, Ronaldinho,... (write every possible player you like).
    That day it will be about 11 Liverpool players and 11 Milan players...
    Another example, if Wigan would relegate who will remember the freak goal that Boro scored against them last weekend (a gaol that could prove to be decisive).
    In sports hindsight has no value...
  3. matherto

    matherto 12 Times

    13 October 2004
    St. Helens, Merseyside.
    Manchester United
    hopefully Milan, and especially Kaka will show the brilliance they did against us, and put Liverpool in their place.
  4. gomito#10

    gomito#10 World Cup Winner

    9 May 2003
    DC, USA
    man im surprised you have this opnion gerd(a very american one i might add), i would have thought you have been more on the dutch way of thinking, cryuff and valdano sound like twins... I think some people would rather play/watch beautiful football then win(includcing me)
  5. rockykabir

    rockykabir hello

    30 March 2003
    London -> New York -> San Francisco
    Liverpool FC
    Valdano is talking a little out of his own arse. Rafa has shown with Valencia that he can direct beautiful counter attack football. Chelsea Vs Liverpool matches are always gonna be tight given their recent history and rivalry....I didn't expect anything less from the semifinal other than a tense and tactical spectacle. You don't see Kasperov going all gung ho against his bitter rivals do you?

    The beauty of football is the sheer number of layers. Tactical play is a side of football and so is slick passing movements.

    Beautiful football is always nice to see...but ask any Arsenal fan out there & they will prefer to see their team winning a few more games even if their passing is sacrificed. Not that beauty & winning are mutually exclusive - Brazil is a prime example.

    Hopefully, with a few more resources, we will see the team Rafa wants Liverpool to be. He has tried but the players bought have been disappointing.
  6. Vlad19

    Vlad19 football manager

    5 January 2006
    Well, they are two managers who've selected to focus on defence and control of the ball/match, because those two things are consistent. The managers who select to focus on offensive football will get the glory, but consistency is much harder to achieve. You can be relatively steady in keeping the ball out of your net, but who can guarantee the small moments of brilliance required for goals against solid opposition? Another thing, if you lose a one-on-one battle in defence, you can always foul the guy and complete your task (they don't score). If you're lagging as a striker, you can't foul and thus complete your task of scoring. Hence Man U can trash Roma, but lose to Milan 3-0. Chelsea in particular are incapable of achieving or suffering either result.
  7. gerd

    gerd Retired Footballer

    8 January 2002
    Over the moon
    KRC Genk, Spurs
    Well Csaunders, i too prefer champaign football, but in the end it is a litle sad if you wanna play champaign football and you're not good enough...the best example i know is our Belgian "top team" Anderlecht...Anderlecht want to play in Real Madrid style, a litle bit like the galacticos...only the last fifteen years they've been far from galacticos...that's rather pathetic.
    On the other hand there are teams who play smashing football and i would like to see them win silverware...but the truly attractive teams seldom win the CL...some teams i thoroughly enjoyed the last years: Deportivo La Coruna (with that match againt Milan as their swansong) and at the moment FC Sevilla (to me the best football in Europe).
    Further back in time: Brazil in 1970 and 1982 (the best team that never won the world cup), Cameroon in 1990, Holland in 1974.
    Club teams: probably the best club team i ever saw was the Red Star Belgrade team that won the CL just before the civil war tore it apart...the paradox is that that team won the final in the most cynical way i ever saw...but it was one of the most attractive teams i ever saw.
    I also thoroughly enjoyed Valencia under Hector Cuper (perfect counter-attacking football, which can be fantastic to watch although it is from the outstart a defensive way of playing).
    Valencia never won silverware and will be forgotten (and is already forgotten except by some romantics like me).
    And Csaunders, if Man Utd would win a treble the way Chelsea or Liverpool are playing, i guess you would not complain...
    Last edited: 9 May 2007
  8. marukomu

    marukomu Ecchi otoko

    26 November 2005
    Okayama, Japan
    Man Utd, Stockport County
  9. lo zio

    lo zio International

    24 October 2005
    come on guys, it's just Valdano :D I mean did anyone of u guys ever read his book? What kind of consideration can we have of him :mrgreen: .
    Valdano, like Cruyff, was a nice player (ehm , not just like cruyff..... he was a genius, valdano was just a very good player), but nontheless both of them don't underderstand anything about football (talking about the tactical aspects).

    I've been in spain for 9 months, years ago, and by talking with spanish people, by reading their newspapers, i realized they're probably the most arrogant nation in the world.

    i love spain, i love spanish culture, litterature, painting and people..... but never talk to a spanish guy about football!
    I know this might sound like a stupid generalization, and i'm sure there are spanish guys who really know something about football, but it's a fact that the majority of spanish guys have the same stupid mentality, when it's about football. And the most brilliant evidence of this is the great popularity of their sporty newspapers (calling that shit "newspaper" is an insult to the real press).

    if u play "their football" and beat them, than hats off, the crowd will stand up and applaude your team.
    but if u beat them by playing a different football (more tactical, like the italian one, faster, like the english one or more phisycal, like the french one), than they will "reject" the result and insult your "football school", like they didn't loose. that's what spanish press always do, that's what spanish readers always think.

    they have no football culture, they play that "horizontal football" and they don't realize that football IS vertical.
    their football isn't perfect, like the italian, the english the french, german.ecc... But their problem is not the fact that their football has some weak points. each football school has some weak points.
    italian football is based on a huge tactical knowledge, but we have no "wings tradition", we don't play on the sidelines, and this is a big mistake, one of ours weak points.
    english football is based on pace and vertical plays, but they don't know how to slow down the game, how to take a breath and see how their teams are lined up (chelsea and liverpool aren't like that but this is due to their "latin coaches").
    french, german and dutch football are also different, they have different good and weak points.

    of course our football schools are getting similar (and this is due to the "football globalization".... spanish coaches coming in italy and england, italian coaches coming in spain and england, foreign players coming in our leagues, ecc.), but THANKS GOD we still are different, we still have our weak points, and this is a nice thing, coz our weak points MAKE (and keep) US DIFFERENT!

    so is not a shame to have some weak points. but is a shame when u don't respect other countries football cultures, other countries football schools. And this is the spanish problem. they consider all the others schools like "anti-football":lol:

    unfortunately, Valdano (like Cruyff) has been influenced by this "anti-culture", so don't take him so seriously :mrgreen: .

    :applause: :applause: :applause: spot on mate, simple and clear, spot on :applause: :applause: :applause:

    people who don't respect other cultures, people who don't respect the result of a match, people who can handle a loss, don't deserve any consideration. And Valdano is a perfect example of what i'm talking about.
  10. ALAIN

    ALAIN blue!!!!

    22 February 2005
    chelsea fc,psg
    what a good/REAL post as usual :applause: :applause: @lozio!!!!!!!!!
  11. gomito#10

    gomito#10 World Cup Winner

    9 May 2003
    DC, USA
    whoa i would think the peoples of catalonia would disagree with you about cryuff....
  12. gomito#10

    gomito#10 World Cup Winner

    9 May 2003
    DC, USA
    no i wouldn't complain, but they wouldn't do that... thats not there style, arsenal and united play beautiful attacking football and i respect that immensely... But Liverpool and chelski play shit football and its incredibly boring.. I would love to see michael essien play on an attacking team... I think this is the reason i have started to watch more spanish/french football then English this season.. Watching wigan long ball vs watford is more boring then MLS! hahaahaha now thats a statement... But then you watch a team like troyes in france who are getting relegated, they play beautiful football, obviously its not effective for them but I RESPECT THEM IMMENSELY! I agree that playing beatiful football does not equal winning, but a famous saying here in the states

    "Winning Isn't everything"

    Which is ironic cause some macho american football men will say that statement is for girls and homos and soccer players(seriously people are that ignorant)

    Lo Zio, Cryuff didnt learn this attitude from the spanish, the dutch have the same feelings about beatiful football as the spanish. In fact in the final in 74 they were more concernend with knocking the ball around and making the germans look foolish, then putting the ball in the net, they scored first and then tried to make a mockery of the germans by passing beatifully all over the pitch, in the end, this cost them the game.
  13. lo zio

    lo zio International

    24 October 2005
    well, probably i was a bit too aggressive, but honestly, cruyff has never been a good coach.... he trained a great team.... that's all.
    he didn't arrived to barcelona coz he was a good coach, he got that job coz he was........ "cruyff" :mrgreen:

    sorry mate, but i have to disagree with u :)
    dutch school is very, very different from spanish school. i'd say we could find the birth of the orange school in cruyff's ajax (their footie was perfectly "copied" by the dutch national team). that team was something unique in the history of football. it wasn't a spanish footie, coz it wasn't just an attacking football. their football was "aggressive"..... 11 player always moving on the pitch for the whole damned match, for every damned match, each player making off the ball movements without a break (just take a look to spanish teams.... if u look at their attitude in their own midfield and in the opponent's midfield.... they're totally different. it's like seing 2 different teams playing... a great team in the opponent's midfield, an amateur team in their own midfield).

    to define cruyff's ajax (i'm not talking about the ajax that cruyff trained, of course, i'm talking about the ajax where cuyff played :) ) here in italy we are use to talk about "calcio totale" (total football) and i think this is such an appropriate definition. that was probably the most beautiful and effective footie in history....... very far from spanish football (and also far from italian :( , german, english, french......).

    cruyff tried to do the same thing, to "produce" the same football, when he became a coach..... but he failed.

    that ajax, that great dutch mentality, didn't just care about beautifyl footie, as they were probably the most effective team in history. by doing this they also played beautiful football.
    but they played beautiful football along all the pitch, not just in the opponent's midfield.

    if u play nice football just in your opponents midfield..... then you're not playing beautiful football.
    and, moreover it's quite easy to produce nice attacking footie when the opponent defenders always leave u the time to think what to do with the ball. In fact when barca (just to make an example) plays in champions league, they totally change their mentality...... in their domestic league it's always "showtime"...... but when they go abroad they always use edmilson or motta, putting them on MAN COVERAGE on the most dangerous opponent's attacking player :lol:
    is this an attacking mentality? is this showtime? man coverage??!!?:lmao:
  14. gomito#10

    gomito#10 World Cup Winner

    9 May 2003
    DC, USA
    put it this way, if cryuffs ajax teams plays shit football and won, people got pissed(and this happend when they hired kovac he won the title, but ugly and they fired him for it) same thing happend with real madrid and i beleive capellos first go with them... im not talking about the style or tactics of play, the dutch achived beatiful football by playing total football, there are other ways to achive attacking football without playing totall football, thats not what im talking about. Im talking about this

    if you win and you play ugly football, i will boo you

    if you lose and you play beatiful football, i will clap you

    that is how i see the dutch and spanish similar...
  15. lo zio

    lo zio International

    24 October 2005
    i see, mate.
    Nontheless i think this happens everywhere. i guess it's all about what we actually consider "beautiful football".

    i mean in italy too teams are booed when they play bad football, no matter if they win or loose. but our idea of bad football is different from the spanish one, the english one, the french one...

    I like champagne football, but if di michele makes a no-look pass or a flip-flap, and 2 minutes later, barzagli misses a tackle, then i won't consider my team a "beautiful team".

    to judge how a team plays u can't just look at some individual plays... u have to look at the movements of all the players along the pitch.
    so when i see ronaldinho doing something magic and edmilson on man coverage over sheva or robben, then i won't say that barca plays an attractive footie... i'll just say that barca has some great players, wich is very different.
    when your team has big players u can always expect some big plays... but this doesn't mean playing beautiful football. a football team is like an orchestra.... having great "musicians" doesn't mean having a great orchestra. u have to see how they "play music togheter".
    Since i see football matches, i never saw real madrid playing beautiful football, if i have to be honest. they always had great players, that's all. But if u wanna see beautiful football, then u have to see lyon, lille, roma, lazio, empoli, fiorentina, nurnberg, sevilla. that's "beautiful football" imo :).

    nontheless, u won't ever hear me disrespecting a team who beated my club, just coz they don't play (what i consider) "beautiful football" (and this is the point of the thread, i guess).
    this is not fair, is not correct, is not sport. and this is what Valdano did (and he did it many times before).... this is what spanish press does.:)
    Last edited: 9 May 2007
  16. pogoss

    pogoss International

    19 March 2005
    not if you are the coach . even if you play beautifull football , if you don't reach the club's goals you'll be fired .
    of course when you just watch you prefere to watch beautifull football but if depending on tastes the tactical game is also beautifull .
    in france ligue 1 , you have sedan who played a more entertaining football than bordeaux but with sedan going to relegation and bordeaux still able to go to the champions league and being already qualified to the UEFA cup I don't thing the supporters will prefere to be in sedan's supporters shoes .
    Last edited: 10 May 2007
  17. Punzz

    Punzz Purple Monkey Dishwasher

    14 September 2003
    Liverpool, UK
    Liverpool FC
    Views off redandwhitekop forum:

    Valdano is what they call a "football intellectual," much like Argentina's 1978 World Cup-winning coach Cesar Luis Menotti. Both men come from the same school of cafe philosophy. From my experience, this seems to mean that they talk a lot, are very sure of their own opinions, often contradict themselves, and have a utopian fantasy of what football should be that isn’t based in reality.

    We’d all love every team in the world to play a bit like the Brazilian team of 1970. That’s the fantasy. But it’s never going to happen, and that’s the reality. It seems to me that Valdano has quite a high opinion of himself, more than likely due to the fact that he was a good player in his day. His philosophy of football, however, is so rigid that it frequently seems to resemble a P.E. game in school: a basic 2-0-8 formation, with all the skilful kids up front, the fat kid in goal, and the two kids who don’t even follow football at centre-back.

    Let me point out a few things here. Yes, Rafa and Mourinho were average players. Well, Valdano was a painfully average manager, full of theories that didn’t work out too well in practice. He got sacked from Real Madrid, sacked from Tenerife, and hasn’t managed since. I’d also like to point out that Ferguson and Wenger were also pretty dire as players, but they seem to play the game the way Valdano likes it, so his (ridiculously broad) point about managers who weren’t good players stifling their teams is flawed.

    Somebody already said it, but if Valdano was to actually sit down and watch Liverpool play every week, he might be pleasantly surprised by what he sees. If he’s basing his views on the two legs against Chelsea (which he appears to be) then we should treat his views with scepticism. There’s no point in damning Rafa on the evidence of two games where defeat was not an option and the pressure was stifling.

    Me, I’m absolutely delighted to be in the Champions League final. How did Real Madrid and Tenerife supporters feel, I wonder, after each of Valdano’s seasons in charge of their respective clubs?

    I admire the fact that Valdano wants to see the game played with joy and freedom, like we all did when we were kids playing on the road with our friends, but this is a painfully naïve notion. It also fails to appreciate the skill of organisation, not to mention the art of defending. I don’t know about anybody else, but I’ve derived as much pleasure in my twenty years watching football from the skill and talent of people like Carragher, Maldini, Baresi and McGrath as I have from Barnes, Maradona, Zidane or Messi.

    He seems to think that Liverpool and Rafa are leading football to destruction. If Valdano watched Liverpool play regularly (which he clearly doesn’t), he’d know that Rafa’s team is always positive, play the game for what it’s worth, and rarely cheat. I’d love to know what he thinks of someone like Ronaldo, frequently espoused lately as the best player in the world but a horrible cheat. Would Valdano say that Ronaldo is more worthy of respect because of his skill than someone like Steve Finnan?

    Liverpool’s game with Chelsea had plenty of skill. True, no flicks or one-twos. But lots of skill nonetheless. Not to mention passion, heart, commitment and guts (by the way, where did Ronaldo's flicks get Man. Utd against Milan?)But Valdano seems to have little time for these qualities. That’s why he’s a failed manager.

    By the way, the "shit on a stick" comment is nasty. Not cool.
  18. gomito#10

    gomito#10 World Cup Winner

    9 May 2003
    DC, USA
    pogoss, kovacs the former coach of ajax won the league and i beleive the old european cup, and they fired him because they played ugly football..... thats what im talking about, winning isnt always everything to some people.. you have to win pretty sometimes :)

    and madrid fired cappello for the same reasons...
  19. gomito#10

    gomito#10 World Cup Winner

    9 May 2003
    DC, USA
    wow you lost me at "rafa’s team is always positive, play the game for what it’s worth, and rarely cheat"

    yeah gerrard never ever cheats.. liverpool have been the single most boring team to watch this year in the CL besides Chelsea...

    "by the way, where did Ronaldo's flicks get Man. Utd against Milan?)"

    he was very ineffective the whole game(as was the whole team), but it seemed to work out for him against the premiership teams..

    why even bring in your bitterness and jealousy into the argument...
  20. seek

    seek K-League

    1 August 2005
    Liverpool FC
    that's why you can't argue with manc fans

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