Two things I miss in all football games

El Pajaro

El Pajaro

Championship
14 May 2008
Not just FIFA though.

Foul / referee strictness slider (of lack of it). It's just insane that the players can't adjust their foul level. I mean it's the stupidest thing ever. Yet no one complains it and reviews say how "realistic" the games are with zero or 1 fouls per 15 min. halfs against the AI. It's like leaving penalties out of hockey game or making a boxing game without a referee.

Penalty shooutouts in real football are thrilling events with full of suspense. Three World Cups have been decided with penalties. They are HUGE events. Who can forget Baggio's miss, Trezeguet's miss or Emilio Martinez' antics in the last final? Yet in every single football game the penalties are like on a 1980's SEGA arcade game. I'm not talking about taking the actual penalties or how it has been technically done. But it goes past in 60 seconds. There are no replays of the kicks, no emotion, no zooming to the coaches while the shooters are walking to the spot. Why can't you slow it down and make some amazing cutscenes... build the suspense... the crowd reactions... scared faces... why there are no replays of the kicks and the cutscenes (the user could easily bypass them with one push of a button).

Many other things too... but these would be huge improvements. Any others?

PS: I'm not excepting anything from Konami or EA anymore. They just release the same arcade game year after year. Football is easily the biggest sport in the world. Why only two choices (which are basically the same garbage in different package)? Some game company should step up and create a proper football sim. Easily moddable with some kind of content manager (like Assetto Corsa racing sim). I don't care for the graphics or the latest shaders, etc. FIFA 16 looked good enough already.
 
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I get the #### kicked out of me on FIFA 19 regularly because I play pretty dirty/late with my tackles (I'm a United fan and I'm taking my frustration at us being crap in real life out on my AI opponents :Y1) Subsequently, the CPU plays a bit dirty in return and many games they'll be about 10 yellows and a few reds between us. If I don't play dirty (in games I need to focus and win) some games are still played really dirty by the CPU. I've had individual players targetted by 3-4 different CPU players in a game because he was the league's top scorer and they injured him for 4 months with an ACL tear.
 
El Pajaro said:
(...) I'm not excepting anything from Konami or EA anymore. They just release the same arcade game year after year. Football is easily the biggest sport in the world. Why only two choices (which are basically the same garbage in different package)? Some game company should step up and create a proper football sim. Easily moddable with some kind of content manager (like Assetto Corsa racing sim). I don't care for the graphics or the latest shaders, etc. FIFA 16 looked good enough already.
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Mate i agree with almost everything there.
your last bit sums it up for me, i still rather play Fiffy 13 or even 10, if i had something like Creation Master from back-in-the-day especially.
i'd probably be doing option files of F. 10 / 13 every year with updated Squads, Uniforms etc, instead of buying any modern game ever again.
also i just had the WEIRDEST gameplay in offline ePoopball 24 against CPU, and noticed how they (again) changed the gameplay mechanisms for the worse, especially on Defence.
not impressed, so i'll cherish the old games i own
 
Am I the only one who thinks it's strange that there aren't any other football games available?

Only friggin' TWO!!!!!

There are probably 100 racing games. 5-6 are hardcore simulators (Assetto Corsa, iRacing, Assetto Corsa Competizione, rFactor 2, Automobilista2, Richard Burns Rally).

Those are incredibly realistic and some of them have hundreds of super quality mods available. Even the less realistic "simcades" like Gran Turismo and Forza Motorsport are decent and have at least some realism in them. Even the EA's official F1 series is ok. Sure the driving physics aren't great but at least there are tons of adjustability and the presentation is amazing.

Assetto Corsa F1 mods are a million times better. Of course AC doesn't have any licenses but they created a freely moddable game and the community has made some incredible F1 mods. The game was released in 2014 and it's still the most popular racing sim.

Yet we can only play the arcade football games with very little realism where we can even adjust the referee strictness. Wonder why there haven't been any alternatives. That is weird.
 
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I think the main costs come from the licences.

We don't need the licences. Just moddable game and we could add everything there by ourselves. Assetto Corsa was a prime example of hugely successful example of that approach. The game was released 2014 and it lives on bigger than ever.
 
Make this your guide for a good football game that respects it's customers and made by people with some integrity
(applies to any platform and any type of game, Even mobile) :

- at least two fouls per half
- AI attacks with different patterns
- You can't just run in a straight line and reach opponents box
- You can't run a straight line on the wing and cross
- GK isn't glued to their line and will come out for one on ones and crosses
- Shots have to be rewarding and don't have the same trajectory or hit the same area of the net every time
- The ball should have a random element to it, Specially on a clearance from a corner for example or after a gk save
- Stats should matter as well as physicality of the player in terms of ball shielding and winning headers
- the more sliders the better
 
People keep saying that creating the physics for a football game is very difficult. And that's why there aren't any competitors. Frankly I don't believe it. Sure it's difficult but no more difficult than creating a hockey game or a basketball game. Or creating a hardcore driving simulator with millions of variables (tyres, pressures, track temperatures, etc.)

PES5 was pretty good attempt but of course that game is now way too old and primitive. The graphics have taken a huge loop since then. Graphics post 2016 don't matter but graphics 2005 -> 2016 is like night and day. But those of us who were around during the PES5 days it was looking really good back then for us football fans. Man... I loved that game to bits.

Lots of potential that never actualized. Funny that PES6 was way more popular but it took the game to more arcadey direction. Less fouls and stupid yellows, etc.
 
El Pajaro said:
Am I the only one who thinks it's strange that there aren't any other football games available?

Only friggin' TWO!!!!!

There are probably 100 racing games. 5-6 are hardcore simulators (Assetto Corsa, iRacing, Assetto Corsa Competizione, rFactor 2, Automobilista2, Richard Burns Rally).

Those are incredibly realistic and some of them have hundreds of super quality mods available. Even the less realistic "simcades" like Gran Turismo and Forza Motorsport are decent and have at least some realism in them. Even the EA's official F1 series is ok. Sure the driving physics aren't great but at least there are tons of adjustability and the presentation is amazing.

Assetto Corsa F1 mods are a million times better. Of course AC doesn't have any licenses but they created a freely moddable game and the community has made some incredible F1 mods. The game was released in 2014 and it's still the most popular racing sim.

Yet we can only play the arcade football games with very little realism where we can even adjust the referee strictness. Wonder why there haven't been any alternatives. That is weird.
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There seem to be a few if you search on the Xbox Store but they all look like poop.
 
okaranza said:
I don't know about FIFA, but PES 2021 taught me to play without making fouls, free kicks are absurdly broken
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I think I'd rather concede a penalty kick than a free kick near the box in PES 2021, at least then I have a higher chance of stopping it from going in... it's quite ridiculous, PES 2012 had that same problem from what I can remember, it's just frustrating and feels unrealistic.

El Pajaro said:
Not just FIFA though.

Foul / referee strictness slider (of lack of it). It's just insane that the players can't adjust their foul level. I mean it's the stupidest thing ever. Yet no one complains it and reviews say how "realistic" the games are with zero or 1 fouls per 15 min. halfs against the AI. It's like leaving penalties out of hockey game or making a boxing game without a referee.

Penalty shooutouts in real football are thrilling events with full of suspense. Three World Cups have been decided with penalties. They are HUGE events. Who can forget Baggio's miss, Trezeguet's miss or Emilio Martinez' antics in the last final? Yet in every single football game the penalties are like on a 1980's SEGA arcade game. I'm not talking about taking the actual penalties or how it has been technically done. But it goes past in 60 seconds. There are no replays of the kicks, no emotion, no zooming to the coaches while the shooters are walking to the spot. Why can't you slow it down and make some amazing cutscenes... build the suspense... the crowd reactions... scared faces... why there are no replays of the kicks and the cutscenes (the user could easily bypass them with one push of a button).

Many other things too... but these would be huge improvements. Any others?

PS: I'm not excepting anything from Konami or EA anymore. They just release the same arcade game year after year. Football is easily the biggest sport in the world. Why only two choices (which are basically the same garbage in different package)? Some game company should step up and create a proper football sim. Easily moddable with some kind of content manager (like Assetto Corsa racing sim). I don't care for the graphics or the latest shaders, etc. FIFA 16 looked good enough already.
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Wonderful post, I agree 100% with it, though I don't even mind them not being full simulations, for us to have a full simulation we'd need 90min matches and way less space, a simulation and arcade mix, how it always has been, is ideal, it just seems that they can't get the balance right anymore.
 
i wonder if Konami have some sicko fever dream, and create PES 5 "Reloaded" with modern graphics, as a paid DLC on ePoopball - Christmas Special, only 69,69 in all online stores :LMAO:

i'd take a Remastered PES 6 over any modern footy game honestly, give us all the old edit mode and GP, to unlock player costumes, i'd love to play a League or Cup as Penguins vs. T-Rexes or some crazy $#it :BOP:
 
El Pajaro said:
People keep saying that creating the physics for a football game is very difficult. And that's why there aren't any competitors. Frankly I don't believe it. Sure it's difficult but no more difficult than creating a hockey game or a basketball game. Or creating a hardcore driving simulator with millions of variables (tyres, pressures, track temperatures, etc.)

PES5 was pretty good attempt but of course that game is now way too old and primitive. The graphics have taken a huge loop since then. Graphics post 2016 don't matter but graphics 2005 -> 2016 is like night and day. But those of us who were around during the PES5 days it was looking really good back then for us football fans. Man... I loved that game to bits.

Lots of potential that never actualized. Funny that PES6 was way more popular but it took the game to more arcadey direction. Less fouls and stupid yellows, etc.
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The physics themselves aren't the problem. It's just pretty damn difficult to build a convincing animation system supporting interactions with the ball as a free entity. Just look at UFL, they've spent so much time on it and it still looks worse than PES 5 / FIFA 06 which are 18 years old now.

Simulating a car on the other hand isn't that hard, to be honest. Apart from that, all the racing sims you listed are so broken in some regards that people would be running riot if an EAFC game would be released in a state like that.
 
We're at the point with FC24 where we don't need to worry about fouls anymore. In FIFA 23 we'd want to have more free kicks, so turned on handballs, not this year. The fouls are definitely there. Some of us are considering turning handballs off.
 
El Pajaro said:
Am I the only one who thinks it's strange that there aren't any other football games available?

Only friggin' TWO!!!!!
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Well, considering that eFootball isn't even a game as we'd mean it... We're left with one major game.
I'm still playing Active Soccer for example even if it's of course not meant to compete with FC 24 in terms of features and visuals.

But I agree with Matt on the fouls: they're there in FC 24, and I feel they're a fair amount (you can select the referee's strictness, on top of that, if you think they're too few).
Furthermore, I've tried Paul's mod and there were EVEN MORE! Paul even released an addon to his mod to bring back the "default" refs because the ones in his mod were, according to some, too strict.

Also I think TheWolf has a point: I'm still playing FIFA 19 and I see fouls in there, too. Not as many as I see in FC 24, though.
 
El Pajaro said:
Am I the only one who thinks it's strange that there aren't any other football games available?

Only friggin' TWO!!!!!

There are probably 100 racing games. 5-6 are hardcore simulators (Assetto Corsa, iRacing, Assetto Corsa Competizione, rFactor 2, Automobilista2, Richard Burns Rally).

Those are incredibly realistic and some of them have hundreds of super quality mods available. Even the less realistic "simcades" like Gran Turismo and Forza Motorsport are decent and have at least some realism in them. Even the EA's official F1 series is ok. Sure the driving physics aren't great but at least there are tons of adjustability and the presentation is amazing.

Assetto Corsa F1 mods are a million times better. Of course AC doesn't have any licenses but they created a freely moddable game and the community has made some incredible F1 mods. The game was released in 2014 and it's still the most popular racing sim.

Yet we can only play the arcade football games with very little realism where we can even adjust the referee strictness. Wonder why there haven't been any alternatives. That is weird.
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I think exactly like you, it's simply not convenient for video game companies to create moddable games. as you said assetto corsa has myriads of mods with which you can race with many types of cars, formulas, etc. etc. do you have any idea of the market share they have lost due to mods? I think the company knows the dynamics of modding well, I think the management must know it, otherwise they should be fired, consequently they prefer to create games with few modification possibilities.
 
They haven't lost any revenue. Au contrary, they're easily the best selling driving sim. It's STILL the most popular driving sim by far.

https://exputer.com/news/games/assetto-corsa-28-million-units/

I'm sure the arcadeish racers like Forza, NFS and Gran Turismo have sold more. But AC's numbers are very respectable and most of its success is based on the mods. Modders even added live weather and rain to the game.

I just started a F1 1998 & 1990 seasons. The level of autenticity is incredible. The qualifying results, race results, drivers' abilities... all done amazingly well because it's easy to mod.


Here's 2023 version. LeClerc is even swearing to the pit crew.


If you think some drivers' abilities are wrong, just open the notepad and edit it yourself.

Just imagine what the talented modders could do if we got a football game with similiar modding abilities. Of course the base game and physics should be good. But everything else could be done by the modders.
 
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El Pajaro said:
They haven't lost any revenue. Au contrary, they're easily the best selling driving sim. It's STILL the most popular driving sim by far.

https://exputer.com/news/games/assetto-corsa-28-million-units/

I'm sure the arcadeish racers like Forza, NFS and Gran Turismo have sold more. But AC's numbers are very respectable and most of its success is based on the mods. Modders even added live weather and rain to the game.

I just started a F1 1998 & 1990 seasons. The level of autenticity is incredible. The qualifying results, race results, drivers' abilities... all done amazingly well because it's easy to mod.


Here's 2023 version. LeClerc is even swearing to the pit crew.


If you think some drivers' abilities are wrong, just open the notepad and edit it yourself.

Just imagine what the talented modders could do if we got a football game with similiar modding abilities. Of course the base game and physics should be good. But everything else could be done by the modders.
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I agree absolutely with you, this should be the approach. There is any excuse to say that football simulation is hard when we are starting to enter on artificial intelegence generation. Is not just Asseto, but all simulation games like Flight Simulator or eurotruck that are much better because of mods and patch's. They have in common is a good base and after the comunity takes care of the rest. My hope is appear a small studio that have that vision where they can develop a game to simulate a football macht. I imagine that is not a big market for this, the videogame industry is searching for billions to answer at their investors. But i feel there is a generation that is lacking a good simulator that when we are kids dreaming about "how will be the foorball games in 20 years?". No need to invest in licenses just in development of physics and intelligence, in ambiances etc. We are in 2024 and still we don't have games where i can play with my local team on 6th division.
 
Exactly. And I would think the main costs of football games come from the licences. Adidas, Nike, Puma and the FIFA rights... whatever. Maybe also paying for the teams and stadium owners something. I have no idea.

F**k the licences. Modders can add the correct teams and brands there themselves. Assetto Corsa has almost all F1 seasons and sports car series emulated. Even NASCAR and CART although AC ai doesn't suit very well to ovals. Kunos created a few F1 models to use as a base (vintage Lotus x 2 and Ferrari 2004). Modders have built other years around those cars.

Then you have 2023 hybrid formula. Those guys who mod these are geniuses. Sure they have used some Kunos stuff as base but the trick was to make everything accessible. Some cars even have engine.ini, ai.ini, tyres.ini that you can easily edit with a Notepad.

Mods are the main reason why racing simulation is almost entirely moving back to PC. Sure you can have vanilla AC for Playstation and Xbox. It is a great game even in vanilla version. But you can't have mods, which is the whole "big thing".

If we had a football game let's say like on par with FIFA 16 physics, that'd be enough. What we could do to the gameplay with very, very limited access to anything (with Gameplayzer and ai settings) was imho quite remarkable. Imagine the possibilities if the game was DESIGNED to be modded, like AC.

And F1 and football are by far the biggest sports in the world. Of course there would be a market for these. Assetto Corsa or iRacing will never reach the numbers of Gran Turismo or GTA. Setting up the mods requires at least some knowledge... you can't play them with a controller and the learning curve is too much for average players... but setting up the mods is not any more difficult than setting up FIFA 16 mods. Sure arcade football like FIFA and PES would sell more because 80%-90% of the player base aren't interested in realism.

BUT... the remaining 10%-20% is still huge. These are enormous sports. AC has proven it. The hardcore approach works. There is definitely room for a genuine football simulation.
 
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El Pajaro said:
They haven't lost any revenue. Au contrary, they're easily the best selling driving sim. It's STILL the most popular driving sim by far.

https://exputer.com/news/games/assetto-corsa-28-million-units/

I'm sure the arcadeish racers like Forza, NFS and Gran Turismo have sold more. But AC's numbers are very respectable and most of its success is based on the mods. Modders even added live weather and rain to the game.

I just started a F1 1998 & 1990 seasons. The level of autenticity is incredible. The qualifying results, race results, drivers' abilities... all done amazingly well because it's easy to mod.


Here's 2023 version. LeClerc is even swearing to the pit crew.


If you think some drivers' abilities are wrong, just open the notepad and edit it yourself.

Just imagine what the talented modders could do if we got a football game with similiar modding abilities. Of course the base game and physics should be good. But everything else could be done by the modders.
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I agree, but they would gain a lot more from selling a new game every year, like fifa, ea f1, ecc. Ecc. If they sell a full moddable game, they would get profit only from this one. I think that having a full moddable game from big companies like ea, konami ecc. is a thing that will never happen. The hope is a stuff like this from an independent company, maybe founded and crowfunded by fans, but it would start from poor technology point, that would grew up only with time
 
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Online has basically killed sports games. It's not necessarily the fault of internet, rather a by-product of opportunities it provided to these companies.
 
Sami 1999 said:
Online has basically killed sports games. It's not necessarily the fault of internet, rather a by-product of opportunities it provided to these companies.
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That's probably a big factor. You're right. I haven't even thought about it. They don't even care about the offline ai anymore.
 
El Pajaro said:
They haven't lost any revenue. Au contrary, they're easily the best selling driving sim. It's STILL the most popular driving sim by far.

https://exputer.com/news/games/assetto-corsa-28-million-units/

I'm sure the arcadeish racers like Forza, NFS and Gran Turismo have sold more. But AC's numbers are very respectable and most of its success is based on the mods. Modders even added live weather and rain to the game.

I just started a F1 1998 & 1990 seasons. The level of autenticity is incredible. The qualifying results, race results, drivers' abilities... all done amazingly well because it's easy to mod.


Here's 2023 version. LeClerc is even swearing to the pit crew.


If you think some drivers' abilities are wrong, just open the notepad and edit it yourself.

Just imagine what the talented modders could do if we got a football game with similiar modding abilities. Of course the base game and physics should be good. But everything else could be done by the modders.
Click to expand...
Im just reading along here… 👌

but AC is impressive, yeah. If I had to pick one sim, it would be AC. 😍
 
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