yes i agree with everything you said. cheers mate. I dont feel ill will towards any people, just politicians
Third World War is getting started???
- Thread starter See5kY
- Start date
yes i agree with everything you said. cheers mate. I dont feel ill will towards any people, just politicians
russia has now shown its true intentions in this whole mess... looks like hte western media wasnt lying after all
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/26/AR2008082600996.html?hpid=topnews
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/26/AR2008082600996.html?hpid=topnews
Re-arranged
Hashish?
- 3 August 2004
- Newcastle United FC
Doesn't prove anything as it was an answer to NATO and EU rblaming us for everything. USA was the main reason this war started not us or Georgia, although both of our countries should take the blame too.
And don't forget about Serbia and Kosovo, looks like a double standards applied here.
And don't forget about Serbia and Kosovo, looks like a double standards applied here.
Last edited:
your spinning more then a dradle. if you or your country could actually prove that we started this, then the EU would be upset with us not you. But alas you cant and use the USA as a scapegoat as many countries do when things dont go there way. Whats next? The Crimean region in Ukraine? WHy the would the United states want a war between russia and georgia? But i can give you more then a few reasons why russia wants south ossentia(oil)
Re-arranged
Hashish?
- 3 August 2004
- Newcastle United FC
Because Saakashvilli is US government puppet and he thought US would back him up in this war as well as NATO, but none did, at least the way he thought they would. He wouldn't have done this alone as he's not the smartest guy around. And that's not what Russian media says, I've read the same in a couple of European and American newspapers/magazines.
USA have been helping Georgia in strengthening their military forces, trained soldiers and supplied Georgian army with arms. I don't believe it was peaceful intentions and if someone does he's plain stupid.
USA government (and it's satellites) is responsible for heating up the whole region. Ukrainian and Georgian revolutions were sponsored by them (there are pro-American forces in power since then). Now they are building so-called anti-rocket 'shield' in Poland. What is that?
If you can't see this, then sorry, man, you're blind or brainwashed.
P.S. Oil is what your government so desperately wants, we've got quite enough of it. To start a war cause of it looks stupid don't you think?
USA have been helping Georgia in strengthening their military forces, trained soldiers and supplied Georgian army with arms. I don't believe it was peaceful intentions and if someone does he's plain stupid.
USA government (and it's satellites) is responsible for heating up the whole region. Ukrainian and Georgian revolutions were sponsored by them (there are pro-American forces in power since then). Now they are building so-called anti-rocket 'shield' in Poland. What is that?
If you can't see this, then sorry, man, you're blind or brainwashed.
P.S. Oil is what your government so desperately wants, we've got quite enough of it. To start a war cause of it looks stupid don't you think?
there is a big difference in establishing allies and causing war... just because we train the georgian forces does not mean we wanted them to start war with russia. We both argee the georgian president is an idiot, so is my president. But i dont think anyone in our state department or the bush administration wants to have ga start a war with russia, it makes no sense. What they do want is allies in the region so russia does not come back to power in the region as they were in the cold war. russia still has lots of nukes and isnt afraid to sell weapons to the highest bidder. Its called self interest. Nato and the EU our of the same position. Georgia and the other satellites did not want to be part of russia, russia cannot except this. Russian wanted this to escalate and im sorry but if you cant see that, then your blind. I have no ill will towards you or your peoples, i think we both are being played as pawns in this game, and both of our goverments are wrong to toil in the politcs and foreign policy of other governments, but that is what both the USA and Russia are doing. Both countries have self interests, this is evident.
Last edited:
Re-arranged
Hashish?
- 3 August 2004
- Newcastle United FC
You just said exactly what I did a post earlier. USA doesn't want an open confrontation, therefore are seeking the way to stir up problems in our relationships with neighbouring countries. This has developed into the war with Georgia won't you agree? As Saakashvilli thought he'd get military support from NATO, but they aren't this stupid as it means war with Russia.
You had the same problem with Cuba, especially when it was our military base and we even had nukes based there, did you like it? Do you like what happens in Venezuella now? This situation in Georgia is nearly the same, as it may become NATO military base very soon. Do you think Russia should step aside and do nothing?
I've never said Russia wasn't prepared for war and shouldn't take any blame in this conflict, but we weren't the ones who started it, this is true. Our government is as bad as yours, but in this case the main blame is on US politicians who just keep heating up situation in this region.
P.S. have no ill will toward anyone, especially you, that's why I keep saying government not country or people.
You had the same problem with Cuba, especially when it was our military base and we even had nukes based there, did you like it? Do you like what happens in Venezuella now? This situation in Georgia is nearly the same, as it may become NATO military base very soon. Do you think Russia should step aside and do nothing?
I've never said Russia wasn't prepared for war and shouldn't take any blame in this conflict, but we weren't the ones who started it, this is true. Our government is as bad as yours, but in this case the main blame is on US politicians who just keep heating up situation in this region.
P.S. have no ill will toward anyone, especially you, that's why I keep saying government not country or people.
Last edited:
behind the smoke courtain of good will of protecting live of minorities and so, your goverments use small countries to fight their war. war these days doesn't have to be so open like it used to.
usa and russia can't agree on milk beeing white, the gap widened this year even further.
on kosovo, usa was the bad guy wich ripped Srpska apart apperrently protecting the albanian majority of Kosovo, in fact putting Srpska on its knees to make it come into western influence, wich they've achieved. now they're are many pro-usa parties there, but the nationalist parties have alot of popularity, almost equal - the countrie is further split by 2 movements. and Russia posed as the protector of Serbia, in fact not wanting to loose influence in the region. -> The whole saving and protecting people concept really goes to hell.
on ossetia and abhazia, the positions are swapped. Russia are the bad guy posing as the savior of minorities and USA are posing as the protectors of a countrie beeing split apart.
so, IMO they're it's kinda the same shit. Russia have already done this in the past century or two. but USA starting this invading shit and this independence shit.
They split Srpska and stated Kosovo is sui generis, wich from point of view is, but it's not that obvious. Russia said it's a precendent and forcly proven it with Georgia. (Our idiot president stated too it's a precendet going against country interests)
You can't just go arround splitting countries apart claiming a minorities' rights aren't respected.
About what I'm concerd: Good thing the rights of the hungarian comunity in Transilvania are respected, even more than that in fact.
Minority rights are important, but not more than the whole countries sovereignty.
p.s.: Why isn't anybody invading China and libarating Tibet?! ....Oh China isn't just some lakey
usa and russia can't agree on milk beeing white, the gap widened this year even further.
on kosovo, usa was the bad guy wich ripped Srpska apart apperrently protecting the albanian majority of Kosovo, in fact putting Srpska on its knees to make it come into western influence, wich they've achieved. now they're are many pro-usa parties there, but the nationalist parties have alot of popularity, almost equal - the countrie is further split by 2 movements. and Russia posed as the protector of Serbia, in fact not wanting to loose influence in the region. -> The whole saving and protecting people concept really goes to hell.
on ossetia and abhazia, the positions are swapped. Russia are the bad guy posing as the savior of minorities and USA are posing as the protectors of a countrie beeing split apart.
so, IMO they're it's kinda the same shit. Russia have already done this in the past century or two. but USA starting this invading shit and this independence shit.
They split Srpska and stated Kosovo is sui generis, wich from point of view is, but it's not that obvious. Russia said it's a precendent and forcly proven it with Georgia. (Our idiot president stated too it's a precendet going against country interests)
You can't just go arround splitting countries apart claiming a minorities' rights aren't respected.
About what I'm concerd: Good thing the rights of the hungarian comunity in Transilvania are respected, even more than that in fact.
Minority rights are important, but not more than the whole countries sovereignty.
p.s.: Why isn't anybody invading China and libarating Tibet?! ....Oh China isn't just some lakey
lo zio
International
- 24 October 2005
- Palermo
do u guys reckon this international incident will really go further?
coz at this point, this seems to me more like some sort of a "showdown".
as a matter of fact russia nowadays supplies gas to the whole europe.
if russia would decide to stop providing us gas (even just for 4 or 5 days), the whole europe would be screwed.
coz at this point, this seems to me more like some sort of a "showdown".
as a matter of fact russia nowadays supplies gas to the whole europe.
if russia would decide to stop providing us gas (even just for 4 or 5 days), the whole europe would be screwed.
cfdh_edmundo
Maverick
- 30 December 2002
Georgia's military used GRAD rockets (this is like 40 missiles fired in one go). They destroyed Tchinval (the main town)...
Georgia's president is to blame for all of this. Russia stepped in, it was defending it's citizens and it had peacekeepers who were killed by Gerogian military. Russian peacekeepers are in a lot of ex Soviet countries, guarding international borders (Iran, Afghanistant) and also stopping wars (Armenia, Azerbaijan). Russia mainly only attacked Georgian military targets, it took Gori (troop assembly town, also where Stalin was born) and dismantled Georgian military bases. It did not take Tbilisi (Russian Army could have done this if it wanted) there were some problems with South Ossetian irregulars. Now the Russian troops are leaving the main parts of Georgia, and the situation will be resolved. It is a shame because Russians and Georgians are brothers not enemies.
Georgia's president is to blame for all of this. Russia stepped in, it was defending it's citizens and it had peacekeepers who were killed by Gerogian military. Russian peacekeepers are in a lot of ex Soviet countries, guarding international borders (Iran, Afghanistant) and also stopping wars (Armenia, Azerbaijan). Russia mainly only attacked Georgian military targets, it took Gori (troop assembly town, also where Stalin was born) and dismantled Georgian military bases. It did not take Tbilisi (Russian Army could have done this if it wanted) there were some problems with South Ossetian irregulars. Now the Russian troops are leaving the main parts of Georgia, and the situation will be resolved. It is a shame because Russians and Georgians are brothers not enemies.
Revan
out the window
Exactly why some european countries are not being very agressive towards russia. But russia won't go that far. That's opening too many fronts.
Haven't seen china speak, but they really don't care about other people's problems. And they are too busy setting their own influence on Africa.
Re-arranged
Hashish?
- 3 August 2004
- Newcastle United FC
lo zio, Russia won't do this as Europe is more important partner to us than, for example, USA. We had and will have some issues with EU, it's normal, but I don't think anything serious can happen.
What I hate about US government is that they say we are the only ones to blame for this war. As clearly Saakashvilli is the one who started it. Situation in the region was rather quite until this idiot blew up the whole thing. I'd better see a neutral president in Georgia like Nino Bordzhanadze than some pro-american extremist Saakashvilli.
What I hate about US government is that they say we are the only ones to blame for this war. As clearly Saakashvilli is the one who started it. Situation in the region was rather quite until this idiot blew up the whole thing. I'd better see a neutral president in Georgia like Nino Bordzhanadze than some pro-american extremist Saakashvilli.
i don't think they're is a neutral, but pro-whatever extremist leaders are idiots, making they're country somebody's slave.
in fact if you think of it USA is boiling things in east europe. they're so aggresive and desperate to dominate.
i mean things arround here were quite, but they re-heated it up, only giving russia the chance to prove it's power in the region.
in fact if you think of it USA is boiling things in east europe. they're so aggresive and desperate to dominate.
i mean things arround here were quite, but they re-heated it up, only giving russia the chance to prove it's power in the region.
Re-arranged
Hashish?
- 3 August 2004
- Newcastle United FC
That's why I was saying USA is the first ones to blame for this war.
lo zio
International
- 24 October 2005
- Palermo
re-arranged said:
yeah, i think it won't happen too.... but then i also didn't expect usa to extend the space-shield to Poland, till 2 weeks ago, so it's hard to say what's going to happen next.
as for the europe-russia commercial partnership, u're right Re-arranged. but i wouldn't call it a proper commercial parntership honestly. i mean, a proper commercial partnership implies both "contractors" to have (almost) the same bargaining power, while in this case the situation is pretty different.
russia litterally sustain our economies, by providing some "vital support" to our industries, while the only thing europe does is feeding russia's gross domestic product (by buying russian gas).
but while russia could get what they need from (almost) anybody else (turkey, saudi arabia, middle east, china) europe has no other options (norhtern african gas supplies aren't enough to feed the european giant).
so, it's not really a proper parntership, as we depend on russian gas much more than russia depends on european money.
however even though a gas supply cut is not likely to happen, it doesn't really matter, as, in this kind of situations what really counts is not what each side will eventually do, but what each side COULD do. Your POTENTIAL options are what really count, as they establish your leverage, your bargaining power.
and that's why i think this incident won't degenerate into "something bigger". europe can't afford to sustain its economy without russian support, and usa can't afford to set up a strategy wich goes against european interests.
but then again, i might be wrong.
however guys, i think there's no point in trying to establish "who's the one to blame" or "who has the bigger faults". if u look at it from the various point of views, everyone is right.
georgia is trying to control his own territory (as it doesn't matter what people in russia or ossetia think, ossetia is still a georgian territory), to preserve their sovereignty.
russia is trying to preserve his control and his political influence on the caucasian region.
and usa are trying to show they won't let russians do whatever they want in the caucasian region, as they clearely don't want russia to increase its influence on the region.
and of course, as soon as u take a look at those pic edmundo posted or at the pics on the newspapers, u also realise that everyone is wrong aswell (at the same time).
but that's pretty normal. it's politics we're talking about afterall. international relations are not about being right or wrong, there's no such thing. it's all about having the biggest negotiating power, the biggest bargaining power.
Last edited:
once again, ben is spot on.
Re-arranged
Hashish?
- 3 August 2004
- Newcastle United FC
Well, you're very right, mate. But I think Europe depending on Russian gas isn't such a big problem. As Russia is also interested in someone buying our resources, so I think Russian government can use this situation to some extent, cutting off the gas means loosing too much money, which at the moment our country can't afford. We still rely too much on our natural resources, although situation becomes better every year.
lo zio
International
- 24 October 2005
- Palermo
:beer:Gomito said:
I don’t think that’s a problem too. Definitely it’s not a problem for russia (
). And afterall it’s not a big issue for us either (at least until u’ll keep feeding us )…. I mean, being so dependable it’s an enormous issue actually, but there’s nothing we can do about it. talking about energy, our hands are completely tied, we don’t have enough, so there’s no other option than buying it from those who have it, and letting those countries get away with... well almost everything, so they don’t get upset and turn our lights off (litterally :-pp).However mate, i feel u’re underestimating the importance of natural resources. As a matter of fact information and natural resources are (by far) the most important assets nowadays. They always were.. and they’re gonna be even more in future. And there’s no need to say oil and gas are the most important among the natural resources, as they give us energy (wich is our countries blood).
Having those gas sources russia has today is like having a huge, well equipped and trained army...actually it’s even better than that, coz an army just gives u negotiating power while gas gives u negotiating power, energy-indipendence, and money.. a lot of money (gas makes money while an army costs money).
so it’s absolutely normal if u rely a lot on your natural resources, and there’s no such thing as “too much” talking about this, as your gas sources would be the “core asset” of any other country.
and there’s nothing bad in using that to increase your leverage, as, being realistic, anyone else would do the same thing.
talking about our different "contractual strenght", well russia definitely needs those money we pay... but don't mistake, u wouldn't have any problems in finding other countries to sell your gas... while for us it would be absolutely impossible to find somewhere else what u provide us today.
however it's great to have a smart russian guy and a smart american guy sharing their own views on the matter... the power of the internet
Last edited:
Revan
out the window
I would prefer a smart man in washington and a smart man in moscow to solve this. 
Re-arranged
Hashish?
- 3 August 2004
- Newcastle United FC
lo zio, thanks for kind words. Actually I'm not a fan of politics as I've stated before, therefore I only want peace and justice in this situation. All I need in this world is footie, booze, women and family/friends. :mrgreen: Everything else is not important unless it touches one of the listed above.
ahh but the price of booze, especially beer is going to skyrocket in the next few years, as people are replacing there hops crops for corn crops...
I would prefer a smart man in washington and a smart man in moscow to solve this.
sadly thomas jefferson is way dead, and gorbachev is retired
Re-arranged
Hashish?
- 3 August 2004
- Newcastle United FC
ahh but the price of booze, especially beer is going to skyrocket in the next few years, as people are replacing there hops crops for corn crops...
Don't drink beer, it's whiskey for me.
Don't drink beer, it's whiskey for me.
not bourbon? this is actually comming full circle, your russian and drink whiskey/bourbon im american and hte only liquor i drink is vodka! LOL
Revan
out the window
ironic.
Re-arranged
Hashish?
- 3 August 2004
- Newcastle United FC
:lol: I drink vodka too, but when there's nothing else to drink, I like tequila too by the way, uuuuuhhhhmmm yummy....
No, there were not any separatists there. There was only Georgian army there.
I like Georgia. Their flag is similair to ours
In all honesty, I don't see how anyone can claim the Georgians are the aggressors. Why would you deliberately provocate the Russians like that, it is suicide. The Georgian army is tiny and still utilises older Russian kit that the Russians know all about. I'd only do it if I knew I had a firm offer of help from the West (Millitary). And Again, I'd only do that if I went mental and wanted to start WW3.
I just hope Russia won't take this advantage to crush georgia and topple the government before Georgia can join NATO.
Lets face it, if Georgia were in NATO none of this would have happened, because fellow members would be obliged by the treaty to get involved millitarily. Which again would be suicide for the Russians.
Georgian army used weapons from Israel, Ukriane, America. Also Bush gave 700 million dollars for Georgian army.
Where did you read it? Indeed Russian army helped people from Gori, Russians gave them food and water.
Jamezinho
Golden Boot Winner
I'm surprised no-one mentioned the two oil and gas pipelines that run across Georgia that help supply the west.
Putin many times offered to unite with NATO and EuroUnion, but Bush and European presidents many times refused. Why? What do Bush and EU fear?I would prefer a smart man in washington and a smart man in moscow to solve this.
Last edited: