The "No Fouls Bug" by Konami

fideco

fideco

Championship
15 October 2005
Italy
Hello!
I apologize for opening a new post, but I think this Bug it's too serious and that I should give him the proper light...

I have played several matches on final version (PS3 and PC).
Really shocked seeing no fouls committed by AI after 2 matches offline in Master League: 30 minutes of quiet gameplay without any foul by AI, only some offside (professiona level) !!!
Now all matches seems friendly

The referee on the picth seems to be therefore useless...
The statistics post match are showing a monstrous bug, which needs to be addressed..

Please notice i'm talking about fouls committed ONLY by AI..

I fear English gamers know nothing about this, because they have not a game yet.
Therefore please comment about this amazing flaw...
Am i the only one to notice this?
 
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I've also noticed this. The foul count is really quite low. On one match earlier, it was just 1 foul!? I mean the demo sure did have a lot of niggly fouls, which were quite annoying, but it's toned down way too much in the final game.
 
shank118 said:
I've also noticed this. The foul count is really quite low. On one match earlier, it was just 1 foul!? I mean the demo sure did have a lot of niggly fouls, which were quite annoying, but it's toned down way too much in the final game.
Click to expand...

well, i can confirm this
i also posted this on pesfan.com
it's a shame that in the year Pes is great again there are so many issues with referees and lag on 360
 
Does that mean it's the same as PES2010 where the ref does not blow for a freekick even though it was a blatant foul?
 
I get tackled alot, guys. This last game against Barcelona i was allowed like 3 or 4 fouls in a 5 minute game. It depends on your game style. If you don't fake feints, and quickly change directions, you're not gonna get tackled.

As simple as that.
 
In the last ten games in my ML, the CPU has only conceded 3 or 4 freekicks (and I play 10min halves). It seems two things have been drastically toned down since the demo: the CPU's likelihood to commit a challenge and the strictness of the referees.
 
fideco said:
Hello!
I apologize for opening a new post, but I think this Bug it's too serious and that I should give him the proper light...

I have played several matches on final version (PS3 and PC).
Really shocked seeing no fouls committed by AI after 2 matches offline in Master League: 30 minutes of quiet gameplay without any foul by AI, only some offside (professiona level) !!!
Now all matches seems friendly

The referee on the picth seems to be therefore useless...
The statistics post match are showing a monstrous bug, which needs to be addressed..

Please notice i'm talking about fouls committed ONLY by AI..

I fear English gamers know nothing about this, because they have not a game yet.
Therefore please comment about this amazing flaw...
Am i the only one to notice this?
Click to expand...

Just wondered do you use tricks at all? Did you see my dribbling video? If you play like that there was an obscene amount of fouls :LOL: in the demo! I mean like i said with the demo, there were too many fouls!

I dunno, need to play it anyway!
 
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kouroux said:
There is plenty of fouls for me, by plenty I mean it's enough.Not a concern to me
Click to expand...

It is not a matter of taste.
It 's just a statistical finding.
1-2 fouls committed by AI in ML (Professional Level)without considering offsides in a 15 min match lenght are an offense to the game of football...

Konami has tuned down the fouls ratio too much compared to the demo because he was concerned about the protests of some people who said that the flow of the game was interrupted too frequently.

Going from one extreme to another without finding the right solution...
 
Well, in a 15 minute match, you're looking at one-sixth of a real-life match. Average amount of fouls in say, a Premiership match is around 20. Using my dividatron condensulator, I'd say in a 15 minute match you'd expect 3-4 fouls a game.

Of course, condensing the 90-minute football match product into a 15 minute video-game experience, you could expect a developer to maybe glorify sections of the sport, such as seeing 2-3 injuries in one game or 15 fouls on average in one game. It creates that excitement of extra realism at first-hand, however looking back afterwards, I'd think 3 injuries or 15 fouls in just 15 minutes of a real match would be too exaggerated. There has to be a balance somewhere and it's a dev's job to find a realistic one. Sounds to me like they've done it just about right.

Is there an option in the game to play 90 minute matches?
 
proxi said:
Is there an option in the game to play 90 minute matches?
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I have very much appreciated your comment and the logical behind it
But let me say that ZERO or ONE foul as as sometimes happens in 15 min match lenght is just a total non sense
Max min match option is 30.
Cheers
 
Re: Re: The "No Fouls Bug" by Konami

fideco said:
I have very much appreciated your comment and the logical behind it
But let me say that ZERO or ONE foul as as sometimes happens in 15 min match lenght is just a total non sense
Max min match option is 30.
Cheers
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I agree, zero or one is not great. When I get the full game I'll see what happens and test stuff out. Unless some guys want to post results / screens / videos of say 3 matches each on both 15 & 30 minutes.

15 minute match should bring an average of 2 CPU fouls a game. 30 minute matches, around 3 or 4.
 
3 fouls would be (and sounds like it is) pretty off. Football in a game is not a sixth of a real match - compared to FIFA which tries to build a game by mimicking individual parts of the game, PES is a collection of non 1:1 gameplay mechanics combined to form a game that is more than the sum of its parts - so while it seems like a valid comparison, in reality it's a bit misleading to just compare it by real life like this.
 
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Now its varying for me. I play a game ending up with about 3 fouls, then another ending with about 7. CPU still seems to always look for the perfect tackle. Players who aren't good with defending should commit more fouls imo.
 
i wonder about fideco's posts, i think he's getting too worked up over certain aspects, also i he just playing friendlies? I mean the CPU int he game i've just played (I HAVE THE GAME :) )In master league have committed 1-5 fouls, they have varied, i've committed loads!

Also these people who 'test' the game with friendlies! nah, you have to play a mode of some sort to get the best out of PES (Master League) They could be more fouls but it's ok ATM for me :)
 
dunno what you guys are talking about.

sure , there are less fouls than on the demo, but ... in my first game i got a penalty ... ( very beautifull indeed , especially in the replay , cpu completly missed the ball in the tackle )
 
fideco said:
It is not a matter of taste.
It 's just a statistical finding.
1-2 fouls committed by AI in ML (Professional Level)without considering offsides in a 15 min match lenght are an offense to the game of football...

Konami has tuned down the fouls ratio too much compared to the demo because he was concerned about the protests of some people who said that the flow of the game was interrupted too frequently.

Going from one extreme to another without finding the right solution...
Click to expand...

I just don't see a problem.Even in real life there is lots of talking about regarding refereeing decisions.I repeat again, when it comes to that, I can live with it.Not a major to me
 
Re: Re: The "No Fouls Bug" by Konami

I've found it hard to see a red card. Done some shocking tackles for fun in the demo and not had one red card. Every time I see Henry I take him the fuck out, but the ref must too be a Spurs fan and enjoy the crunches.

This is obviously excluding getting 2 yellow cards, the system for yellows is fine.

romagnoli said:
3 fouls would be (and sounds like it is) pretty off. Football in a game is not a sixth of a real match - compared to FIFA which tries to build a game by mimicking individual parts of the game, PES is a collection of non 1:1 gameplay mechanics combined to form a game that is more than the sum of its parts - so while it seems like a valid comparison, in reality it's a bit misleading to just compare it by real life like this.
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Agreed, I just feel there's a window to be aimed for when combining entertainment and realism. Having 1:1 would be game-breaking, but in fundamental items such as amount of typical goals per match there should be a window somewhere in the middle of realistic, and not. Also free-kicks, injuries, shots that hit the woodwork, deflections etc. Too many of these makes a boring game but too little leaves a hole. Konami seemed to have nailed the other fluctuating events & stats.

When for instance when I suggested an average 3-4 fouls by the CPU in a 30-min match, 0 would be the non-realistic amount, and I'd say 10 the unrealistic. The "window" being in-between.
 
klashman69 said:
i wonder about fideco's posts, i think he's getting too worked up over certain aspects, also i he just playing friendlies? )
Click to expand...

Please read my posts more carefully if you want to criticize them.
I have already stated that i'm referring NOT to friendlies but to Matches CUP or ML matches.
As stated in posts 1 and 12.
 
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I definitely think fouls are a little off now. It's not such a problem against CPU to be honest as you can play more defensively of the ball to counter it.
The main issue is online. Not only has it become a little like Fifa in the 'rush & charge' pressing. But also there's a separate issue of off-the-ball challenges not being pick up enough. I play a guy who, whenever I started a one-two move, would slide foul the running player way after he passed, so that he can't pick up the return. Even if you pass to where he is running. No foul is called.
 
fideco said:
Please read my posts more carefully if you want to criticize them.
I have already stated that i'm referring NOT to friendlies but to Matches CUP or ML matches.
As stated in posts 1 and 12.
Click to expand...

Oh ok, BUT your not explaining the matches in better detail Your saying: there's 1-2 fouls which aint enough.

Your aren't explaining how it's killing our matches etc.. i mean is the balance totally wrong?

it's like your ignoring everything else in the game and only focusing on the fouls :CONFUSE:

But what teams were you using for example? in ML or in the Cup, have you tired using strong teams vs weak teams, using teams like Stoke etc..

I mean i've been playing with Fyernoord. Some games there's 1-2, some games there's 6-7 by the CPU, mainly when I'm defending a lot. How are you playing the game? Certain matches for me there's quite a few fouls, others there aren't much!
 
A 15 minute game perfectly replicates the 90 minute real time equivalent for me personally. If played with football in mind and at a realistic pace it's as close as you can get, in my opinion. Statistics generally back this up in my experience. I'm interested to see what my particular style of play generates CPU foul wise. I'm sure that taking this piss with feints and close control against Top Player Ai will still provide enough fouls in my favour. It's tight, well organised but very cynical at times.
 
proxi said:
Well, in a 15 minute match, you're looking at one-sixth of a real-life match. Average amount of fouls in say, a Premiership match is around 20. Using my dividatron condensulator, I'd say in a 15 minute match you'd expect 3-4 fouls a game.

Of course, condensing the 90-minute football match product into a 15 minute video-game experience, you could expect a developer to maybe glorify sections of the sport, such as seeing 2-3 injuries in one game or 15 fouls on average in one game. It creates that excitement of extra realism at first-hand, however looking back afterwards, I'd think 3 injuries or 15 fouls in just 15 minutes of a real match would be too exaggerated. There has to be a balance somewhere and it's a dev's job to find a realistic one. Sounds to me like they've done it just about right.

Is there an option in the game to play 90 minute matches?
Click to expand...

Yea, thats why the defence is so crappy, cause if they actually made it realistic, there would be a ton of 0-0 games
 
Played a match between Munich and Juventus (me) in the Champions League mode (top player /15min)



As you can see... 5 fouls on Munich side... 2 freekicks in a central position. I can't see a problem here.
 
Quality, looks to be fine on the whole. I'm used to playing for free-kicks in desperate situations and the results above seem to show it's possible, mimicking real matches.

Got the full game on PC to play tonight so will see for myself.
 
Fouls were perfect in the demo. These screen shots show a real issue. In a 15 minute match I expect double digit or at least near double digit foul numbers. Futbol is a sport with lots of tackles, these tackles result in fouls.

It is obviously that everyone prefers the game be a certain way. How about a slider for this. I want a sim experience and that means more fouls or stoppages. Without a proper number of fouls, less free kicks in dangerous areas. Shame. :RANT:
 
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