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Discussion in 'Pro Evolution Soccer' started by Ashraf, 28 June 2011.
What does it do?
Sorry, just spotted this. The Teamwork stat relates to how hard the player works for the team to regain possession of the ball. A player with a high Teamwork stat will close down the opposition very quickly, especially when using one of the Pressure buttons, X or Circle. You'll also find those players to be quite aggressive and strong in the challenge.
Most great DMF's will have a very high Teamwork stat, and for me personally, it's a very important statistic to have for the relevant players. Wingers that are not usually known for their tracking-back ,can make a huge difference with a high Teamwork stat from a defensive perspective.
Sorry Jimmy, but I disagree.
I associate Teamwork with how well they link up with others, with regards to passing and movement. Someone like Perotta darts all around the pitch making himself a target for passes with a high teamwork stat.
It's noticable if you start a ML career, since the stat becomes dynamic and new signings always start with a low value. This is why they tend to be quite disjointed to begin with, but as things progress and the stat increases they are able to fit in more with the team.
Really, I'll have to massively agree to disagree then Danny. Players with a low Teamwork stat pressure at a very lethargic pace. Try it. Then try the opposite.
It think both of our examples could fit the bill literally, but in my own personal experience, it's not even in question. In my humble opinion.
I'll have to throw another theory into the mix from my observations - it seems to affect how well the player follows tactical instructions and how disciplined they are in their positioning.
I think we could well all be correct - there may be more than just the one thing it affects.
The old PES games on PS2 had that thing on the formation screen where you could select a player, press R1/R2/L1/L2 (can't remember which) and it would show each player's teamwork with all of his teammates.
Not sure exactly what it does though to be honest.
It's a funny one this Rob, because I have read on other forums what Danny has written, I have also read my example. There are certainly differing opinions of the trait. I can only speak from experience, and I know that the players on my team with the high Teamwork stat are my ball-winners, hands-down, no question.
Teamwork in football, by definition, in my opinion reflects the ability to work for your team. It's an industrious trait, that some of the more flamboyant, prima-donna labeled players are criticised for lacking. That certainly doesnt mean that's Konami's intention though, because as we all know, terms are lost in translation. But I truly firmly believe this to be the case. But, I could be wrong, I'm just stating how it makes me feel.
Edit - I've just had a quick look at certain players stats and it reflects what I have mentioned. Toure, Vieira, De Jong. All have very high Teamwork stats, with Vieira and De-Jong being the highest, both have the Enforcer Card. Then check Adam Johnson, not noted for his breaking-up of play, he has a Teamwork stat of 77. He aint going to pressure hard with with either single or secondary pressure. It's not only if apply pressure either, you can clearly see these type of players moving off the ball to cover channels. It's their primary driver, it's Teamwork.
Yeah, that's a logical and fair conclusion to come to regarding that attribute.
To give some examples of players and their teamwork attributes;
Robinho - 72
C.Ronaldo - 72
Makelele - 88
Gerrard - 88
Terry - 88
Puyol - 85
Berbatov - 77
Rooney - 80
Kuyt - 92
Seems to fit your model, except for Berbatov who should probably have his lowered a bit, and Rooney who should have his increased.
However, using this tool, some players known for their tough tackling and tendency to get stuck in for their team seem to have quite low teamwork attributes...
The thing is Rob, in the old-gen PES, the Teamwork stat implied it worked in the way Danny mentioned. The reason for this was the fact if you moved the players into differing positions, you had a number that changed depending on who they were playing next to. Compatibility if you like, it changed in next-gen.
Xavi - 98
Iniesta - 95
Messi - 67
Busquets - 75
Villa - 85
This attribute is bloody confusing, I know that much...
Thats thrown a spanner in the mix......
Mentality is more likely the 'industrious steel' attribute.
Teamwork is definitely the link-up attribute, hence why bringing new introductions will lower it between sets of players in your ML team.
Catermole - 74
Karl Henry - 72
Reo Coker - 69
Pirlo - 90
Deco - 92
I'm definitely buying more into your argument Dan. I think Rob is right though, I think it is a mixture. I'm 100% sold on it's effectiveness to work more for the team, and I only say that because I use it for that reason and it works very well compared to those players with a lesser rating. But reading Xavi's stats certainly backs up your argument as well.
Could work in the sense they track runners more willing as well, although the extent of that would be quite shallow considering the lack of player AI. PES could really do with an Aggression attribute, in it's true 'hard-men' sense rather than the current 'how aggressively they attack' sense. The only implementation right now to my mind is the combo of 'Balance' stat and 'Enforcer' card.
Hopefully with the improved off the ball movement next year, we should see greater differentiation between players. I'd love to use a poacher that offers nothing other than intelligent movement and finishing. Inzaghi.
mentality only really kicks in when a team is losing. With player with low mentality their attributes drop more when they are on a blue or purple. Also it drops their stats it think if the team they are on are losing.
Teamwork is ambiguous to say the least. I've always considered it to be team awareness - in terms of passing when in attack, and positioning when in defence. So in a sense it's also decision making because it equips players to make informed team decisions. This means that defensive midfielders are more likely to release the ball early, and attackers with low teamwork are more likely to run with the ball while those with higher stats are going to be the ones who look to use teammates.
Remember how in old PES titles you could see how a player's teamwork rating would combine with others to give a joint rating (loads of lines emanating from the selected player)? Or look at PES now - new signings (and your BaL when moving to a new club) will see their teamwork rating hit rock bottom and build up. Does that tally up with teamwork representing workrate? Or is it more likely a form of team 'chemistry', that develops as a player beds into new surroundings and gets used to playing with different people?
It's ambiguous, to say the least, and it probably does a number of jobs. It could be that I've covered more things than it does in that first paragraph, or not enough. But I think it's necessary to be kind of ambiguous when describing it because it is open-ended - I think it's about how well someone can play as part of a team.
(In that case I'd expect Messi's rating to be higher, but you'll inevitably get one or two dodgy ratings).
I think i'll have to agree with Jimmy about the track back part, it explains why Ambrosini is a better ball winner than Thiago Motta and why Pepe is a better defensive winger than Miccoli.
if i remember correctly that guide explained what each attribute did including teamwork
this is exactly what I think about the teamwork stat, it's kinda the same effect the Defense Leader card has on players
IMO, teamwork could be the ability for the player to find his optimal positioning on the field relative to their teammates, with the Attack and Defense stats being used to calculate his positioning relative to the ball.
So if a CF has high Attack but low Teamwork, he will try to position himself as a good target but somewhat ignoring another teammate (e.g. going for the same ball).
Tbh it's all very ambiguous since the implementation is not especially noticeable, it's easy to see why it's open to so many interpretations.
Like I said before, they've got the technical individuality right, just the mental individuality to be more pronounced. Then the likes of your Recobas and Adrianos who's talent deserves high abilities, will still have wobbly games and not as superhuman due to their mental inferiority.
Important thing I just noticed when listening to the WENB podcast - I've listened to it a couple of times but only just actually picked up on it, sorry if everybody knows already!
Apparently the teamwork stat is now a letter, rather than a 1-100 rating. So the meaning of it at the moment might well change for 2012.
The letter thing will be implemented for team overall stats and some key player attributes won't it? Speed, strength etc. Could be a nice quick way to see which player you need for a position
Hmmm.. I thought the letters are used for comparing teams though?
I'm only interpreting what I heard lol. I thought it was like using grades. Good school kids vs bad school kids
that sounds a bit 'too FIFA' 4 me.. i like the numeric grades.. i'd like th polygons we used to have tho.. the ones in PES11 are useless
I'll find the time at which Adam says it, but certainly the way he says it indicates that the letter is used for the player's teamwork rating.
The letter ratings for speed, strength etc are not replacing the numerical values - it's just a quick summary of a player's ability, replacing the hexagon system. The same for teams. So it's possible that Ad just meant that there's a teamwork grade in amongst that list. It doesn't sound like that from how he put it though.
Teamwork or overall team rating? The way FIFA has 5 star teams, 4.5 star teams etc.
Well, Konami defines it rather vaguely as 'how well a player can link up with his teammates and receive passes'. It seems to be more complex however and govern many things, including:
Involvement in build-up play - Hence, for instance, Xavi's god-region TW value.
Being on the same wave-length as teammates - This seems to be Konami's meaning. So, say a player makes a good run, the player in posession, if he has a low TW, is more likely to choose a worse option. I think this includes judgments about the weight of passes. So a player with a poor TW value would be more likely to overhit simple short passes or otherwise misjudge the weight needed. Also this seems to encompass and represent a player's 'vision', as high TW players choose the best and most impressive passes.
Tendency to pass - In general there seems to be a correlation between low TW values and more 'selfish' players, who prefer to dribble or otherwise go it alone, and between high TW values and players who constantly pass. eg. Ronaldo - 72, Xavi, 98.
It's also often suggested that TW affects movement in the sense that a player with a high TW value will make themselves available for passes more intelligently.
One stat for all of these traits is frankly frustrating and very much oversimplified. Players are very hard to accurately recreate in game with such limitations. Think of static playmakers, like Riquelme for instance. He'd have a high TW value as he's heavily involved in build-up play and has extraordinary vision but he'd have a low value on the grounds that he's static, and it's not his style to move relentlessly to collect the ball.
Or prime Ronaldinho. He had incredible vision and imagination in his passing, thus warranting a world class value, yet he didn't constantly pass and regularly went on solo runs, thus warranting a low value. Ideally, Konami would split TW into about five seperate attributes so these unique styles could be better replicated.
I'm aware that I've essentially clarified nothing, and have only muddied the already murky waters of our understanding of the TW value, but it's the best I can offer.
Riquelme has the Classic No 10 card which means he plays statically, as you describe. I'd assume that Ronaldinho has a fair few cards representing how likely he is to dribble or pass too?
I agree that some sort of work rate stat would be useful, but I think the whole purpose of the personality cards is to combine with the mental attributes to represent the traits you describe.