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Tactics - Countering 433 or the SB marking problem

Discussion in 'Winning Eleven' started by Mauras, 13 April 2006.

  1. Mauras

    Mauras Premiership

    7 October 2002
    Hi ppl,

    As some ppl that love PES the most interesting thing for me in this game is developting tactics that counter problems I find.

    As months wen't by I noticed a fact that was brought to my attention by a friend from PES.COM.PT: although centering and heading is difficult nowdays when compaired with WE7i and previous versions, the 433 is still a very dangerous tactic and one that reveals what I consider defensive flaws of WE8, WE9 and PES5. I list the problems here:

    - offside - has never been as good as in WE7i: in that version you could really prepare an ofensive tactic with offside tactics that would caught longball and exagerated direct playing adversaries, specially when playing with 3 forwards.

    - Side defenders - whatever you do (and I've tried everything!) side defenders seem to allow space to open wingers: I've tried full defensive atitude, defensive arrow when attacking, heavy and normal marking, everything... no matter the setting SBs seem to close in the middle and allow initial space to WG, and only when these are fully launched on a counter do they close in.

    What's your views on this issue and how do you counter this tendency, specially against players that like to glue their WG to the sidelines, searching for that extra space conceded by poor marking SBs?

    Cheers,
     
  2. Androctonvs

    Androctonvs Discovered The FK Bug

    30 November 2003
    Portugal
    SL Benfica
    I put man marking on wingers and defend with square, while waiting for the other human player to l1+triangle to his winger with the cursor on my sideback :)

    E... tass bem.
     
  3. Mauras

    Mauras Premiership

    7 October 2002
    yep I also do that but when defending the SBs usually go to the middle and don't stick with the wingers... I've read somewhere that a good way to counter that is changing the settings of SBs to CBs and that way they'll stick to the marking when oposition uses open wingers. I'll try that.
     
  4. The Power

    The Power League 1

    18 July 2003

    Play with 4 defenders and 2 dmf against the 4-3-3 formation. For the sidedefenders choose the position CB...so they will play on the wing and dont go in the middle :)
     
  5. sitdown30

    sitdown30 Guest

    No that will not do it.
    They'll still drift to the middle when the team attacks.
    In fact if you change your SB into CB, they will drop oof too deep into your own box when defending, resuting in wide open crosses from wings.

    It's very annoying, this SB problem.
     
  6. johan

    johan Guest

    I started using LINE DEFENCE and it works a thousand times better.. excelent to stop through balls.. and I also have my RB and LB almost at a sideline so they can catch a winger in process.
     
  7. thegreatman

    thegreatman Non-League

    4 April 2006
    hi mates....

    i just want to ask u for a suitable formation to beat my friend who's playing with avery tight defensive formation 4-3-3 with players in the midfield 1CMF and 2DMF with high defensive stance for all players of the midfield and defence also he playes with avery defensive team (England)


    ---------------------Robinson----------------------

    Carragher------Ferdinand-----------Terry------------Ashly.cole


    --------Gerrard(DMF)--------------Lampard(DMF)--------

    ----------Beckham(CMF)-----------


    Wright Phillips(RWG)----------Roony(cf)-------------Owen(LWG)

    so i need aformation that can break that defence...

    Please anyone help me to beat this defensive guy......
     
  8. johan

    johan Guest

    Well, I would copy Chelsea's formation.. they are great for fast unexpected counter attacking.. I would have Michael Owen as your CF then put Rooney as SS right where Owen is (at your formation) and put Joe Cole where Wright Phillips is.. as your RFW



    SOMETHING LIKE THIS: ??
    http://www.slibe.com/image/fe06ba6a-untitled_JPG/

    excelet formation for thru passes and he wont be able to stop it
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 15 April 2006
  9. gergerger

    gergerger Banned

    14 March 2005
    Well, I practically invented all that SB switching to CB tactic. Of course no one will believe me, I'm fine with that. Anyway, there are a few kew things about all this:

    First of all, when switched to CB, your former SB will have a tendency to mark within the area or in other words to stay close to the CB next to him. What you need is to dispace him as close to the sideline as possible.

    Second, as you probably noticed, SB's in real teams generally go as far as the end of their own half. Son don't even bother yourself with the arrows, it will ruin the balance of the formation.

    The next problem is the defense line position. I used to put all lines as back as possible, and give all neccesary players arrows for attacking position. This way, you'd get a team standing in a defensive attitude with all players in their own field (list most team defend), but this changes the game to a more realistic intended gameplay, since once you recover the ball you have to give your team players the time to take offensive roles. It works a lot like real life (only if you set both teams to do this) but it also brings a few tactical problems which I can't remember specifically right now (I applied this to PES 4).

    Anyway, I'll give you guys a hint to bring the game to a more realistic ground without much tactical hard work. The key to this is obviously hexa-editing. As you'll see in my next post (I'm using split posts because no one likes to read a big big post, sorry for this).

    EDIT: Lol I forgot, if you want a REALLY DMF, you can try this. Place your DMF as a CBT in the limit between defense and midfield. It is only possible with defenses made with up to 3 CBT's and 1 SB. You can even give him the CBT overlap function if you want him to attack as well. It may not work to perfection, but it is worth trying. He's good at picking the ball from defense and distributing it, and also at marking the opponent's attacking midfielders. Good luck with this one (I think I invented this one too) ;)
     
    Last edited: 16 April 2006
  10. gergerger

    gergerger Banned

    14 March 2005
    I just hope I'm able to remember all the changes I made regarding hexa-edition....

    In order of importance:

    1) MENTALLITY
    * Set all players mentallity to 1

    Mentallity has A LOT to do with the game looking so scripted. Get rid of it, and you'll see how the flow of the game changes like magic. You know what does the trick? team attitude. When you play against the cpu and they score, they play more defensively. If your team is set to auto, it will play further in the pitch. And that alone let's you enjoy incredibly realistic matches without that mentallity bullshit that ruins the game (example: your team scoring and your players instantly becoming slow as hell and unable to control passes well). You'll love it GUARANTEED.


    2) SPEED DIFERENCE BETWEEN PLAYERS
    * All players top speed like -50 points or something.
    * Increase all players top speed like 40 percent or similar.

    You'll really appreciate this one. Not only you will get a more realistic paced game and difference of speed between players will definitely stand out. If you get it right, the fastest player in your game will run like 80 or something, and the slowest will be 35 or something. The range between fast and slow players is wider now.
    I'm giving blurry numbers here because I don't have an exact number (I tweaked this over and over), and the aim of this is that you get the idea and use it as you want to.


    3) ACCELERATION
    * All players constant: 95 points.

    In real life, When a player starts making a run, normally he already reaches the speed he wants by his 3rd step. Reaching speed is like a reaction, you reach it and you keep it. And specially considering there is a vital difference now between fast and slow players, and that acceleration is only how fast they reach their top speed (which i just explained), 95 would be recomended. Fast players will burst like you expect them to, and slow players.. when you're slow, you're not expected to be any faster, so it doesn't take you any time at all to reach your desired speed, since you're already slow. Get it?


    4) AGRESSION
    * Decrease -40

    CPU players will pass the ball a lot more, move it around, play it backwards, even do side to side crosses, you ask for it..


    5) BODY BALANCE
    * Decrease all players body balance -50 points.

    Players dive all the time. So in order to emulate it, try this drasticall adjustment. I hope you find it much appropiated. And, altough it will sound stupid, this one makes most fouls actually look like fouls.
    ///By the way, an off-topic recomendation: edit and erase the "advantage" signal when no foul is called because team is still in possesion. That sign is so.. like.. i don't know.. so "not football". If you erase it you'll feel better about this situation, which annoys all of us. It will be like the frenetic advantage given by the ref never happened most of the time (you'll play on and you won't notice it.. as it should be).


    6) GOALKEEPING
    * Reduce Goalkeeping skills -25

    This one pretty much self explains. Or try the same method as with top speed, if you really want to see a difference between good and bad keepers. Good ones will secure the ball a lot more. But I think even the good keepers give many rebounds, so a -25 will give them all a better balance between ball catchings and deflections.


    7) RESPONSE
    * Increase slightly for all players, +7 would be fine.

    Adds to the new system of players top speed. Slow players won't get left behind, and fast players will respond according to what's expected.


    8 ) SHORT PASS SPEED/DRIBBLE ACCURACY/DRIBBLE SPEED
    * Increase it like 5 or 7 points.

    About short pass speed, it sort of completes the combo. The overall result is that players no longer run from midfield to the goal area in a few steps. Look at real life, a player sprinting doesn't get too further in the pitch. In Pes, this effectively traslate to the pitch looking bigger. I mean if you're thinking of running with every player that gets the ball, you may want to reconsider, as it will take you nowhere. Back to "topic", I'm afraid you'll have to work short pass speed according to players positions. The other two (dribble values) are exclusively my own taste and are not ment to change the game they way all the other suggestions do.

    That should be all..
     
    Last edited: 16 April 2006
  11. Nick Cave

    Nick Cave Wrexham fan for my sins...

    10 July 2004
    Non football league waste land...
    Wrexham AFC
    gergerger can this be done through an option file or do i need to use HEX edit if so can you post a tutorial!!!
     
  12. gergerger

    gergerger Banned

    14 March 2005
    Lol you're right, "hexa-editing" is the wrong term, it's actually taken from spanish and turned into english by me. ;P

    The tool I used is the one called "Stats adjust" from PESfan editor.
     
  13. Mauras

    Mauras Premiership

    7 October 2002
    Love those stat adjustments, the problem with that is that you get used to play a different (better) game and when you go play online and/or on tournaments you get that sour taste.
     
  14. gergerger

    gergerger Banned

    14 March 2005
    Lol thanks Mauras.
    But what can I tell you? I don't think anyone will try it. Even if they do, I couldn't expect them to like the way it feels.

    For instance, I saw once a thread about a guy in another forum sharing his stats "formula". I already had mine but I gave it a shot, and as I did, I realised I didn't share his views on stats editing. So at the end of the day I guess it' simply about how it grows on you.

    I encourage everyone to make a backup of their OF and start tweaking tactical drawings, mess with them in an innovative way, you might just come up with a successfull experiments. This is specially good when you start finding PES a little boring or repetitive.

    btw, I remember having writen an extensive explanation about how I used to use formations and player positionings. It was for pes4 but I guess it could still be usefull or bring some kind of inspiration at least. I could search it and paste it here anytime.
     
  15. Mauras

    Mauras Premiership

    7 October 2002
    do it mate, that would be awsome. Ppl that really THINK the game like you, PLF, eatontj really deliver that extra something to these threads.
     
  16. Sollito

    Sollito Campioni siamo noi

    8 August 2003
    São Paulo - SP / Brazil
    São Paulo / Inter Milan
    Since WE6 I used to play with 4-4-2 classic, but gameplay of WE9 bring me the chance to use 4-3-3. Like you said it's a dangerous tatic, bur very effective! I rarely suffer goals in championships (the secret is the DMF).
    To fix the problem with SB's try to put attack arrow "BACK" and the deffensive "HIGH", but the most important thing it's play with manual changing player. With manual you can bring back your SB and full that space of WB... works perfectly for me! :)

    Hope that I rescued buddy!

    Soooooooorry my bad english!

    Cheers!

    ps.: Vou visitar o site português de vocês! Talvez a comunicação fique mais fácil! :D
     

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