Tactical tips and discussion. FORMATION QUESTIONS HERE!

Mauras said:
tried your 451 (433) last night. The first impression was cool but I gradually played worse (maybe getting tired :)). Lot's of possession but less shots and changes than I usually get with other setups. It seems to create a huge gap in the midfield when you loose a ball, and you still get that effect of everyone rushing too fast to the box and no "second wave" behind the first load of attacking players, the usual problem I get in the last 3,4 versions of the game.

Of course the main reason is that I gave up crossing frequently as I rarely seem to be able to win the aerial challenges (even using R2) so I try to build up a bit more and this tactic is probably not for it... long gone are the days of ISS Pro Evo 1&2 when you could play on the wings in true style, delivering (unrealistic I assume) danger from the wings.

The beauty of this game is this... there is no "secret" tactic, it's subtle, adaptive, you have to find your own formula. It's funny how I can play very well on some systems and so bad on others, it's the beauty of this game.
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I know exactly what you mean Mauras. I just cannot play using Chelsea's default 433/451. I guess lone striker + wide men doesn't complement my playing style.But my mate can come in and pick up the default 433 and totally rock with it.

I guess ppl can say it's us that controlling the game. But actually, as you pointed out, each has to develop his own style. The formation and settings do need to fit your style of play and distribution.

I personally know that I need 4312 to play best. Sometimes 3412 or 3322. Thing is I prefer to have players in close proximity to stroke the ball to.

But I do agree the forward arrows for players are a bit exxagerated. MF with forward arrows end up in the box, instead of hovering outside the box. If you want to compensate, then youd have to position them higher w/o arrows or deeper w/arrows. This in turn screws up your shape defensively.

But I'm really having fun with tactics/strategy this time round. Since areas like manmark, covering really show up in gameplay. Up to WE8I, it was all just play, play and play. Only strategy was formations. I've turned a few games around by tweking strategies, (he.he also lost a few by tinkering too much).


As for crossing, in WE9/PES5 i think its so much easier to score headers. Honestly I preffered some of the animations from WE8LE, but some of those in WE9 are very good too. (prolly I don't like the 'leaning' type header too much).

Volleys were a bit more natural in WE8:LE too it was slightly scripted in that game, in WE9 i feel its scripted even more.

Just to say, every game in the series has a bit of fault, but we'll just have to play on, i guess and wait till the next version presents.

Cheers.
 
just found a new formation which provides that "second wave". Kind of beginning to like it. I used this with Man Utd against Spurs on 6stars,15min and won 5-0(well, it could easily have been 6,7 - 0)



Lineup i had: GK:Van der Sar, CB:Ferdinand, CB:Silvestre, LSB:Heinze, RSB:O'shea, DMF:Keane, CMF: Scholes, OMF:Park, ST:Rooney, LWG: Ronaldo, CF:V Nistelrooy
 
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Will test it tonite BK, thanks.

JIWA, your playing style looks exacly the same as mine, the same specs, the same difficulties. Yesterday I also found out a nice 4312 that made me score 2,3-0 regularly. My playing style is very similar to chelsea, 90% pass and movement and 10% dribbling and individual skills, but sometimes I feel I should hold the ball longer. An hint: if sometimes you have that feeling you are passing it too much too quickly and that your overal dinamics doesn't keep up try and halt more.. just halt a player.. let the teammates run into more interesting positions. Sometimes we simply go too fast.
 
Wow nice to see some people interested in deep tactical talk here. I made one about a year or so ago on PESfan called "PES4 Tactial Discussion" and it turned out to be huge success. I didn't know there are enthusiasts here as well but now that I see I will post my thoughts and how to use some players best when i get a bit of time.

Very nice post there Jiwa and BK that's good but why do you want your LB going inside?

take care
 
Mauras said:
Will test it tonite BK, thanks.

JIWA, your playing style looks exacly the same as mine, the same specs, the same difficulties. Yesterday I also found out a nice 4312 that made me score 2,3-0 regularly. My playing style is very similar to chelsea, 90% pass and movement and 10% dribbling and individual skills, but sometimes I feel I should hold the ball longer. An hint: if sometimes you have that feeling you are passing it too much too quickly and that your overal dinamics doesn't keep up try and halt more.. just halt a player.. let the teammates run into more interesting positions. Sometimes we simply go too fast.
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You're right about hanging back. In PES5, really difficult as the game seems tuned for faster passing. Personally I don't like that I can do pin-point 30yrd ground passes like rockets. I don't mind the distance, but the pace is a wee bit unrealistic IMO.

Let teammates catch up with the play. He.he. Sometimes its them and half the opponents MF along with them. But I'm forcing myself to cut down on R1 this year. Hard to educate the fingers though :D. Also now going on full manual 'off/def attitude'. Getting the ball then making the call via :l2: + :r1: :r2: to make my other players move up to join the play. A lot of finger gymnastics there, Tring to make strategy calls, at the same time moving to keep ball, and being aware of opponents/openings. Wheeeeew !!

Somehow I'd rather lose a match, just trying to play my style. But when socring off a move with passing with interchange between 5-6 players it really worth it.

Haven't really had a chance to play this week so can't try out your formation yet. But on paper it looks kind of narrow. The opponent would tend to rule the sides. Although I've never tried my CM's cutting inside. Comment more after giving it a try. Why do you have one of your CB's falling back deeper than others. Doesn't it make it difficult to hold a line.

Cheers \\:o/
 
Is it just me that doesnt understand Eaton's formations?

==========================/============
--------------------------------|--------<--LH>---------------------
------<--<LB-----------------|------------------------------------
--------------------------------|------------------------------------
---<--<CB----------<-DM---|---------------<CF----------------
GK-----------------------------|------------------------------------
-----------------------------<-OH---------------------------<CF>-
---<--<CB--------------------|------------------------------------
--------------------------------|---------/---------------------------
--------------------------------|--<--OH---------------------------
--------------<--RB-----------|------------------------------------
======================================


What do those attacking and defensive arrows mean?
 
PLF said:
Wow nice to see some people interested in deep tactical talk here. I made one about a year or so ago on PESfan called "PES4 Tactial Discussion" and it turned out to be huge success. I didn't know there are enthusiasts here as well but now that I see I will post my thoughts and how to use some players best when i get a bit of time.

Very nice post there Jiwa and BK that's good but why do you want your LB going inside?

take care
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that is if u have an attacking SB, if not juse remove the attacking arrow
 
ayzee said:
Is it just me that doesnt understand Eaton's formations?

What do those attacking and defensive arrows mean?
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check out one of the first posts, he explains it some rows after the tactical itself. I think the blue ones are defensive and the red ones ofensive, then the defensive have graduations (-,--,---). It's a bit weird but if you check his explanation you'll get it.
 
BK_83 said:
that is if u have an attacking SB, if not juse remove the attacking arrow
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I see but still why going inside attacking??

Heinze isn't really an attacking fullback anyways, he's more defensive but he is good enough going forward as well that's why I would leave player like him on NO arrows. He will make the occasional run forward down the left wing when he sees the opportunity for gettin forward well but won't get forward at every time I posesss the ball which means he won't be on left side of defense to stop opposing RM which is his main strength, defending and stopping!

But if i have a SB who's very much better at attacking than defending like Cafu, Roberto Carlos, Assou-Ekotto then i will give a forward arrow to get him more involved in attacks and even then I would give a forward and diagonal arrow to the outside. So if he's a LB he will have arrow that is in between forward (right) + up. And just one arrow.. i find giving them two makes them more confused and get caught out of position. I only give my forwards two forward arrows at TIMES and maybe ONE CMF if it's a forward and backward arrow if i want him to play as a box to box midfielder but when I do that I always make sure I have another DMF/CM with NO arrows so he keeps his position because if both get arrows then at times you'll find neither are at center of pitch defending where you want them to and this will mean opposing CM can get good long-range shots on your goal or easy through balls that your DMF/CM should've been there to block.

Take care and hope to hear more from each of you about your tactical insights.
 
BK_83 said:
even though i give him diagonal arrow, but somehow he still runs along the flanks... beats me.. haha
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It's because of the way the game is designed. Hopefully I can explain how I understand it to work.

Each player can be assigned roles as we know. The game has scripted behaviour based on each of these roles when we are not in control of the player. This scripting determines how a particular player should play based on the roles given. Assuming no arrows are put in, each player would hold position realisticaly.

So a SMF/SB will generally play on the wings.A CMF will stay in middle 3rd of the pitch. An OMF will play 3/4 up the pitch and so on.
His area of play is defined by the shaded 'zones' that we see.

The arrows that we select, just define whether he plays neutrally, or makes runs towards the edges of his zone as defined by the direction of the arrows.

So in you case, I think the SB will naturally still be going up/down the wings, albeit slightly more centrally than normal.

How do you counter this? We can control it to an extent but not totally. This is because another factor comes into play. Player Stats. The ATTACK attribitue means more than just how good he is in an offensive sense. It also determines the tendency of the player to get forward to support the attack.

For example take CAFU/CARLOS. Both have relatively high attack stats. Without arrows they'll still be moving up the wings along with the play. I can reasonabally control this.

So to keep them back, put back arrows on attack. But adjust your defennsive formation to deeper bowl shape and test it out. YOu don't want them hanging back too far and playing ppl onside.

If I put forward arrows they'll be overlapping a lot.

Hope this helps.


PS: This is my interpretation, but you can look at the help section within the pause menu for explanation as well.
 
BK_83 said:
just found a new formation which provides that "second wave". Kind of beginning to like it. I used this with Man Utd against Spurs on 6stars,15min and won 5-0(well, it could easily have been 6,7 - 0)



Lineup i had: GK:Van der Sar, CB:Ferdinand, CB:Silvestre, LSB:Heinze, RSB:O'shea, DMF:Keane, CMF: Scholes, OMF:Park, ST:Rooney, LWG: Ronaldo, CF:V Nistelrooy
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@BK, USed Chelsea and tweaked their formation to apply your midfield suggestions. Quite OK I must say. Had Lampard/Essien coming into play a lot more .

I was using PRO EVO 5 though, and they tended to get forward a bit too much if I held up play.

On WE9 I think it would work so much better. Thanks BK.
 
The default CHelsea formation is one of the foramtions i use most, you can feel that there's some sort of balance in midfield, but there's a problem with it that the left SB tires so damn quickly, so you have to tweak the arrows abit, i usually dont put any arrows on none of my players just to balance the formation, because sometimes i feel that the players are "lost" when i assisgn arrows.
 
Well, I somewhat suddently found "my" tactic (it's so funny how PES is a real "personal" experience).

After tweaking, fiddling around my old and new tactics I found a setup that got me delivering above 10 shots a game, winning big time (although I'm a natural born misser) and achieving 60% possession games. It's a custom 4-1-2-1-2.

I'm waiting for the PC version to post it there and post the screenshots for you to check. In the meantime I feel that with this setup up I get a lot of movement from players, always 1,2 free options of passing with plenty of space. The defence also works wonders, winning many balls on the antecipation without necessarely having so many men backwards (a trend I've found in most my human opponents, with the increasing complexety in defending in the last versions, 90% of my opponents adopted tactics with more populated defenses, recurring to 2 DMFs, or 1 DMF with close Ms nearby.. it's the greece complex, don't forget we are portuguese :))

The truth is that I passed from mediocre 6 star 1,2 goals wins with plenty of draws to sequences of 3, 4, 5 goal victories.

Nevertheless don't let you guys fool yourselves. Sometimes we find a great setup against the CPU that proves poor in human matches.

The only real mistery to me is the heading game in ofensive phases. I sometimes find ppl here saying how easy it is to score from crosses in PES5 and I waste and waste... no matter how I cross, if I'm running quicker or slower, if I wait or not wait, the truch is that 95% of my crosses find a defender and not my striker, rarely I find my strikers to win situations, dunno if it's the way I cross or the way I try to move the strikers afterwards.. the usual end is failure in even heading.
 
Do any of you guys use the radar prompts (flash) while playing?

In the past I always palyed naturally, i.e pass where I 'think' a player should be based on yhe formation settings. Only recently (WE8LE) I started using radar more often (basically to spot open man for crosses).

Recently in WE(, I noticed that the radar does flash to to indicate an available passing option. Initally I thought this was when 2 dots overlapped or something but now I noticed that it actually promts you to open men.

Does anyone else know/or use this feature?

Cheers
 
jiwa: yeah, i use the radar now too. you're right in the beginning you tend to play more intuitive, but as the series develop, you yourself, also develop as a player. i use the flashing now to see if there's a passing option. but when it doesn't flash i also look for a pass. i don't have the feeling it is reliable in any way. but i must admit that 'radarplaying' is becoming one of my qualities right now.

i'm trying out a 4-5-1 formation right now. i've always played we9 with a 4-3-3 or a 3-4-3 formation. but with the release of pes5 it somehow doesn't work out well. it seems defending is more difficult. the 4-5-1 strategy is working out fine. in a ten minute match against the cpu, i played seven games last night and won six, 1-0 or 2-0. it doesn't create a load of chances but with the right approach you can score from the handful of chances you get. defending is pretty easy as things are very crowded in defence and midfield. the main reason i'm doing this is for playing against human opponents, especially when they are very skilled. i'll let you know how the formation works out against my skilled mates. i love to spank them with a few lousy chances and not giving anything away at the back!
 
I always overlooked the radar, and the game helped that as in older versions the wide camera allowed an even greater view of the field.

In my opinion the radar is useful but unrealistic and a spoiler, as no human onfield player, even the greatest maradona on earth has a specific perception of what's around him 360º. Ofensive and defensive movement should be about an "eagle eye" and a perception of what's around you, and not a usage of an "air force" tool that is unrealistic.

Unfortunately Konami made it a fixed tool and you simply can toggle it off, while most of the players nowadays are embracing the radar, motivated by its beneficts... gone are the days of human meetings when we toggled the radar off and it was all based on the real keen eye for player movement and dinamics.

The seconds you take checking the radar are seconds you are not viewing the real action... playing PES with radar is kind of riding a bike with... side wheels like when we are kids. It's more efficient but it's not the real thing I think.

Just my 2 cents.

Teacher said:
defending is pretty easy as things are very crowded in defence and midfield. the main reason i'm doing this is for playing against human opponents, especially when they are very skilled. i'll let you know how the formation works out against my skilled mates. i love to spank them with a few lousy chances and not giving anything away at the back!
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I commented that here or in another thread I think.. it's a trend I'm finding in most human managers which I understand and don't criticize but that leaves me sad... 90% of my friends are adopting increasingly defensive schemes, the usage of to DMs is common nowadays, long gone are the days, in older versions, were everyone was a bit bolder... I guess it's the "greece european championship" factor reaching PES :). I tried that but I concluded that the main reason I play PES is for fun, and my fun is based on overcoming the oposition in every vector (not only result but gameplay) and I hate passing 10 minutes with a gamestyle that delivers few chances. Nevetheless you can developt ofensive models with a sole striker, I have a 451 that is quite ofensive, it's one men less in front but he is properly backed.
 
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I fully agree with you on the 'greece' factor, Mauras! And I respect your point of view on how football is to be seen. But I play with 5 to 6 very skilled mates, that go back a long time when it comes to console gaming (coleco vision, atari 2600 etc.). The differences are little and the games are always close with attacks going back and forth from left to right. Absolutely no 'greece' there! With all due respect for their euro 2004 result. Being Dutch, you'll maybe know that we the Dutch only like attacking football!
That's why i'm very interested in your 451 tactic, so that I can further develop my 451 tactic according to my offensive standards. I've tweaked it to a point when it has become some sort of 433, because the lmf and rmf have low defence arrows and forward attacking arrows: they almost act like wingers.
What you've said about the game becoming unrealistic with radarplaying is true. IMHO I believe that PES/WE will always be a game. Nothing more, nothing less. It's bound to be unrealistic. But Konami have managed to create an atmosphere of sheer realism that we all love here! Isn't that true?
I agree that fun and gameplay must be the only reason to play the game. Believe me, I'm having a lot of fun when I beat them this way. Especially when I want to win some of our own tournaments, I'll probably want to produce 'results'. You have to agree with me, that in real football (I play soccer myself) 3-4-3 is madness and naive! Look at AC Milan or Man Utd, big clubs, great players: steady, careful tactics! All based on: not wanting to lose.

But, enough of this right now!
Can you, Mauras, give me a little insight on your offensive 451 tactic?
 
..and offtopic: i don't know really if there's a thread about formations in pes5. people who have switched from we9 to pes5, like me, want in depth formation babbling(!), the thread must at least be kept alive and maybe moved. i used the search option to find this thread. maybe we can achieve something like Jmz on pesinsight!
 
inter_211 said:
The default CHelsea formation is one of the foramtions i use most, you can feel that there's some sort of balance in midfield, but there's a problem with it that the left SB tires so damn quickly, so you have to tweak the arrows abit, i usually dont put any arrows on none of my players just to balance the formation, because sometimes i feel that the players are "lost" when i assisgn arrows.
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:thumbup:

Arrows can be used on Certain players for example strikers although it might mean they get caught offside more but putting 2 on every other player that usually a new player to this game does will do exactly what you said. Just makes nobody hold position when defending and be at wrong places and they feel lost and dont know what to do because instead of just telling them go out there and play guys simple instructions, you've confused them by giving horrible instructions.
 
actually pes is not adopting the greece factor... just that it is more realistic and in realistic football, u can just have attacking players... u need to pass around like real life, and not just passing straight forward all the time, this is not gonna work, if u find too many defender while attacking, well u can change sides, pass back to defender to open up their players.

im playing on 6 stars and sometimes i also score 4-5 goals(10mins) and im playing 433 formation.
i tink for we9/pes5, midfield is more impt coz thats where most of the things happen. in we8/pes4. its just unrealistic the way u can score and the amt.
Moral of the story is: play WE/PES like you would in real life, the arcade style dont work anymore
 
Mauras said:
Well, I somewhat suddently found "my" tactic (it's so funny how PES is a real "personal" experience).

After tweaking, fiddling around my old and new tactics I found a setup that got me delivering above 10 shots a game, winning big time (although I'm a natural born misser) and achieving 60% possession games. It's a custom 4-1-2-1-2.

I'm waiting for the PC version to post it there and post the screenshots for you to check.
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i would love to see ur formation.... my 433 formation somehow doesnt work as well as it does in we9, need to find a new formation
 
Teacher and BK, I'll post it as soon as PES5 PC is running in my PC. For the meanwhile I only have it in PS2 so no shots yet.

Tried it today in a 4-side human league and it worked wonders. I faced 433 and 343 with few difficulties, I lost only 2 games but both a bit unlucky (one of them 2-0 delivering 19 shots and 10 on goal and sending 3 balls to the posts :)). I even lent the tactic to a friend of mine in the last game and he played much better and found is second win in the league against the runner-up. I seem to have found my gem, the funny think is that It's very similar to previous tactics I made in older versions but I had to change the arrows and overall balance to get it right.

It's fun to see an attacking phase with always plenty of passing options but also a defensive dinamic with always a player around the man with the ball, no holes although playing only with one DM and no CM. I'm having fun with it, I'll try it online tomorrow.
 
BK_83 said:
use pro evo soccer pc version, make the formation and press print screen, den use mspaint to cut the wanted picture and save
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use ALT + print screen and you dont have to use mspaint or cut not picture ;)
 
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