SPAIN thread

I'm sure they will be remembered as one of the best of all time already regardless of how this tournament ends.

I don't find them particularly exciting to watch if I'm honest, though I can appreciate certain bits of skill or a penetrative passing move. But more often than not they will try to suffocate the other team with their passing, it's not going to produce many thrills, but who's fault is that really? Is it their fault for being generally supremely more talented than the other team? Are they supposed to give away the ball to make it more exciting for the opposition? Of course not.

So really it's down the opposition to create an exciting match, much like what Italy did. The Italians played their own game rather than solely trying to stop Spain and it produced what in my opinion was a quality match.
 
exactly. most of u guys are mixing up "quality" and "entertaining".
u can rate a performance in terms of quality (how did that team play? well? not well?). but u cannot rate a performance in terms of entertainment. because the entertainment comes from the whole game experience. and the whole game experience is a result of the combination of the performances of both teams. u just can't separate the performances of both teams, because each team's performance effects the other team's performance.

the spanish just do what they're good at (wich is normal as everyone always tries to play to their strenght). the thing is other teams often prefere to set up a counter strategy wich perfectly fits the spanish game. and the result is pretty boring.... wich is absolutely normal, because what generates excitement is conflict, contrast.
when u have one team wanting to hold on to the ball, and an opponent who is absolutely happy with its counterpart holding on to the ball, u have no conflict. the 2 teams aren't fighting for the same thing, their respective gameplans perfectly match each others; the result is inevitably dull.

but this is not just spain's fault. both teams create this, because the script of a football match is written by both teams. and that is why the spain italy game was so exciting, while some others spain matches weren't. because, unlike most of spain's opponents, italy didn't adapt to spain. we said "ok, we're not cool with u doing this, so now we're gonna try and do something different". the italians weren't happy with spain feeling confortable in their passing game and so they did something about it. and the result was fun: but it wasn't just italy's merit (exactly as it isn't entirely spain's fault when their games turn out to be dull)...... it was the combination of both performances that ended up into something exciting.

one last note: excitement obviously doesn't equal to quality; they are indeed 2 completely different things: u can watch 2 poor teams playing against each others and find the whole experience extremely entertaining, even though the quality of the football is horrible (epl being a good example here. i mean i absolutely love the epl and i actually enjoyed it more than serie a this season, but obviously i got to admit the overall quality of the football is quite poor when compared to serie a, liga and bundi). the same way, u can watch 2 great teams playing some fantastic football and yet be feel frustrated by an overall dull experience, in terms of pure entertaining. it's an obvious remark, but it thought it was worth doing it.
 
Reading this reminds me what people write about Barcelona.. except this team dosent have Messi..

Well game starts 0-0, its not Spains fault that they win? Why Italy could score first while others couldn't? Ofc first game of the tournament, but still its possible..

I believe Ronaldo against Barcelona + his Real team mates will destroy Portugal.. No CF (Postiga & Almeida - im sorry but thats very weak), Bruno Alves who has good tournament but was pretty crap in Zenit this season, he is too slow quite often + tiki taka is too much for him, tho his aerial abilities are I would dare to say quite EXCEPTIONAL.

So we got Ronaldo and Nani, Nani is really crap so far... I wonder what happend to him? Ronaldo alone won't do... besides that there is Alonso, Ramos, Arbeloa and Casillas waiting for him :)

So mighty Spain will DESTROY Portugal with 1-0 win, or maybe even 2-0!
 
lo zio said:
most of u guys are mixing up "quality" and "entertaining".
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I'm not sure people are saying Spain aren't quality - far from it - although you are absolutely correct in differentiating quality football from entertaining football.

Do I think Spain are the most technically able and intelligent team in the world? Yes.

Do I find Spain interesting to watch? Not really.

Like others have said, they lack an outlet in and around the penalty area and as a result we are watching them trying to walk the ball into the net. Their reluctance to play a dedicated forward in the absence of David Villa is staggering to me. Torres is not on his best form but I was really looking forward to seeing more of Llorente and Negredo in this tournament and in that regard I've been disappointed with Spain.
 
lo zio said:
exactly. most of u guys are mixing up "quality" and "entertaining".
u can rate a performance in terms of quality (how did that team play? well? not well?). but u cannot rate a performance in terms of entertainment. because the entertainment comes from the whole game experience. and the whole game experience is a result of the combination of the performances of both teams. u just can't separate the performances of both teams, because each team's performance effects the other team's performance.

the spanish just do what they're good at (wich is normal as everyone always tries to play to their strenght). the thing is other teams often prefere to set up a counter strategy wich perfectly fits the spanish game. and the result is pretty boring.... wich is absolutely normal, because what generates excitement is conflict, contrast.
when u have one team wanting to hold on to the ball, and an opponent who is absolutely happy with its counterpart holding on to the ball, u have no conflict. the 2 teams aren't fighting for the same thing, their respective gameplans perfectly match each others; the result is inevitably dull.

but this is not just spain's fault. both teams create this, because the script of a football match is written by both teams. and that is why the spain italy game was so exciting, while some others spain matches weren't. because, unlike most of spain's opponents, italy didn't adapt to spain. we said "ok, we're not cool with u doing this, so now we're gonna try and do something different". the italians weren't happy with spain feeling confortable in their passing game and so they did something about it. and the result was fun: but it wasn't just italy's merit (exactly as it isn't entirely spain's fault when their games turn out to be dull)...... it was the combination of both performances that ended up into something exciting.

one last note: excitement obviously doesn't equal to quality; they are indeed 2 completely different things: u can watch 2 poor teams playing against each others and find the whole experience extremely entertaining, even though the quality of the football is horrible (epl being a good example here. i mean i absolutely love the epl and i actually enjoyed it more than serie a this season, but obviously i got to admit the overall quality of the football is quite poor when compared to serie a, liga and bundi). the same way, u can watch 2 great teams playing some fantastic football and yet be feel frustrated by an overall dull experience, in terms of pure entertaining. it's an obvious remark, but it thought it was worth doing it.
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Perfectly encapsulated lo zio.

I'd rather watch technical masterclasses like these than seeing aimless long balls being thrown up the pitch, aimless crosses, speculative long range shots and running fast nowhere into blind alleys.

It is up to the other team to make a game of it. France decided not to because they were paralyzed by what Spain might do on the counter attack.

Sides that have attacked Spain like Chile, Argentina who beat them 4-1 (in what was a thrilling game with Spain hitting the woodwork twice) and Portugual 4-0 albeit the last two were friendlies had the guts and ability to attack.

And no side likes to be attacked or defenders run at. But no one aside from Italy have taken up the metaphorical cudgels.

Masterclass in third gear last night. Masterclass I say.....
 
ALBICELESTE2010 said:
I'd rather watch technical masterclasses like these than seeing aimless long balls being thrown up the pitch, aimless crosses, speculative long range shots and running fast nowhere into blind alleys.
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There is no middle ground between possession and hoofing in your world?


The only reason why Spain do what they do is to win by using as little energy as possible. They just eliminated a major team using nearly no energy what so ever, and the match was as entertaining as watching paint dry. Kudos to them, but I watch football matches for entertainment reasons. What they do is impressive, but it's killing the game at the same time.
 
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It's all subjective in the end. I enjoy watching teams putting crosses into the box. You never know what's going to happen and who will get on the end of it. The unpredictability of football at its best.

Direct football can be beautiful too. Just look at Bergkamp's goal vs Argentina at France 98.
 
jamezinho said:
I'm not sure people are saying Spain aren't quality - far from it - although you are absolutely correct in differentiating quality football from entertaining football.

Do I think Spain are the most technically able and intelligent team in the world? Yes.

Do I find Spain interesting to watch? Not really.
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yep, but u see that's the point. what u "watch" isn't just a single static force. u don't "watch" spain, u watch spain playing against another team. a football game is a matchup between 2 dynamic forces, so when u wanna judge how entertaining the whole experience was, u just can't simply extrapolate one team's performance and put the other team out of the equation. because both teams effect each others performances and the "entertainment factor" comes from an inseparable combination of both performances.

having said that, i entirely agree with u that spain needs an outlet upfront and also someone who can provide width (i guess we all agree that villa is deeply missed and that, in his absence, it would be much better for the whole experience to have llorente in there and also one between pedro and navas)
 
lo zio said:
having said that, i entirely agree with u that spain needs an outlet upfront and also someone who can provide width
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Spain looked more lively once Pedro was subbed on. They have exciting wide players and strikers in the team but they persist with playing 5 or 6 central midfielders which is why they are not an entertaining team to watch for some people.

I'd love to watch Spain with Pedro, Navas and Llorente on the pitch at the same time. What I don't enjoy watching is a team of Spain's ability playing two DMFs every match.
 
Jamezinho said:
It's all subjective in the end. I enjoy watching teams putting crosses into the box. You never know what's going to happen and who will get on the end of it. The unpredictability of football at its best.

Direct football can be beautiful too. Just look at Bergkamp's goal vs Argentina at France 98.
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absolutely. i also enjoy direct football a lot... afterall the football culture of my country pretty much epitomizes direct football.
i also wouldn't go as far as saying this spain team is one of the best of all times... this sort of dramatic statements are catchy, but also silly. the mere idea of comparing a contemporary team with a team from 20 years ago is plain stupid, so the whole "best team ever" doesn't really make any sense.....
and i also wouldn't say they're revolutionizing football or anything. it's extremely hard to come up with a brand new tactical idea theese days, and even when u consider the most original idea spain brought to this euros (the "no forward" setup), that isn't a new idea at all (anyone remembers spalletti's roma?).

however i can't see why they should change a system wich seems to be working very well. it's up to the others to find the right countermeasures. and as for the entertainment aspect, what's more important to u? to have england playing entertaining football or to have england winning? ;))
jamezinho said:
Spain looked more lively once Pedro was subbed on. They have exciting wide players and strikers in the team but they persist with playing 5 or 6 central midfielders which is why they are not an entertaining team to watch for some people.

I'd love to watch Spain with Pedro, Navas and Llorente on the pitch at the same time. What I don't enjoy watching is a team of Spain's ability playing two DMFs every match.
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no arguments there, but that's what we think from our "neutral" perspective. if we were spanish we would probably have a different opinion :))
 
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Strange that the fact that this was a boring match (to me it wasn't, i loved it) is only attributed to Spain. If i remember well i saw a French team without Nasri, Ben Arfa, Menez and other offensive minded players...yet the match was boring because of Spain.

What is absolutely hilarious is all the Man Utd fans that think Spain is boring. Here is an example of one of the most boring team to watch (and yes, often with quality football). Apart from a magnificent counter now and then (they are probably the best counter team in the world) the most exciting thing watching Man Utd is watching the grass grow on the pitch (of course i'm exagerating). It's all very subjective and i'm talking as much nonsense as all those United fans (i do realize it).

That said, yesterday Spain showed weaknesses. Personally i think Portugal is a stronger team (although i prefer to watch Spain). Players like Silva (my favourite), Iniesta and Xavi looked exhausted. Is it any wonder that Jordi Alba was the best Spanish player yesterday (the only player who doesn't play for a an absolutely big club and perhaps had to play less matches).

Oh, and don't underestimate England. They are far from exciting to watch, but in the end it is about winning (something Ferguson understands very well) and not about playing attractive football. To me Germany and Portugal are favourites now, with Spain and England as outsiders.
 
Sabatasso said:
There is no middle ground between possession and hoofing in your world?
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There can be a middle ground, but no team (bar Italy) has been able to strike this balance effectively. I think that if Spain is to go out of this tournament, it will be because they lost to a team that is able to quickly transition from counter-attacking to possession-based football and vice versa. Based on current form, Germany is probably the best-equipped to do this.

Sabatasso said:
The only reason why Spain do what they do is to win by using as little energy as possible.
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Actually, they exert quite a lot of energy. The amount of off the ball movement required to keep possession and the amount of running required to track down the ball when not in possession is immense! Their rest period only occurs when the ball is at their feet.

They also ask their outside backs to play like wingbacks, which requires even more running; hence, Alba finding himself in a great attacking position to cross to Alonso for the first goal.

Sabatasso said:
They just eliminated a major team using nearly no energy what so ever, and the match was as entertaining as watching paint dry. Kudos to them, but I watch football matches for entertainment reasons. What they do is impressive, but it's killing the game at the same time.
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This statement just irritates me: "t's killing the game at the same time." Really? Really?! I would much rather base a player development model on what Spain do than what Chelsea did to win the Champions League. Spain dictate how their opponents play football. Chelsea did not.

Jamezinho said:
It's all subjective in the end. I enjoy watching teams putting crosses into the box. You never know what's going to happen and who will get on the end of it. The unpredictability of football at its best.

Direct football can be beautiful too. Just look at Bergkamp's goal vs Argentina at France 98.
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I can appreciate a good headed goal. In fact, I thought Gerrard's pass to Carroll and the subsequent knock down was gorgeous. However, I would not consider service into the box to representative of "[t]he unpredictability of football at its best." Unpredictability is Liverpool coming back to defeat AC Milan or Greece scoring a wonderful counter-attacking goal to level the game with Germany at 1-1 when the Germans seemed to be in complete control.

And for the sake of argument, Spain has been more direct this tournament, especially on set pieces...which is a nice surprise considering Puyol's absence. Also, yesterday's opening goal was the result of a cross into the box.

Jamezinho said:
Spain looked more lively once Pedro was subbed on. They have exciting wide players and strikers in the team but they persist with playing 5 or 6 central midfielders which is why they are not an entertaining team to watch for some people.

I'd love to watch Spain with Pedro, Navas and Llorente on the pitch at the same time. What I don't enjoy watching is a team of Spain's ability playing two DMFs every match.
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There is a very big difference between Spain's 4-5-1 and let's say for example, the Netherlands' 4-5-1. Consider the holding players: Alonso and Busquets for the former, and de Jong and van Bommel for the latter. The Spanish actually use Alonso and Busquets to get play going forward. They are the conduits which all play must flow through. They also have the ability to carry the ball forward. Can you really say the same thing about the Dutch? De Jong and van Bommel are not comfortable enough on the ball to start the attacking move. They are there to break up play and quickly get the ball forward to one of the four creative players in front of them. Why else would van der Vaart be brought on in place of van Bommel in their final game? Simple: He was there to help build the attack because they were unable to consistently string passes together out of the center of midfield and into the final third in their first two games. To suggest that Spain is somehow playing extremely defensive football (along the same lines as the Dutch) with Alonso and Busquets is ridiculous.

Sabatasso said:
They looked more lively for two minutes, then they nearly stopped playing forward.
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Well...didn't Pedro earn a penalty? Didn't Xabi Alonso score said penalty? They were 2-0 up and in complete control of the game. There was no reason for them to score another goal.
 
Excellent points Steve O-21.

We had the same situation here at Watford with Rodgers. He tried to instill a posession based game building from the back.

Only for any player that tried to do so with the occasional ball back to retain posession getting vitriol thrown at him from the stands.

There's a difference between aimless hoofball which seems to excite so many here in England and overhit crosses as opposed to a crafted long pass from a Francecoli, Hoddle or Platini or floated accurate cross from a John Robertson.

Other teams need to up their game to beat Spain who barely broke out of third gear.

Teams like Argentina and Portugual who have had the guts to go toe to toe with Spain have scored goals and in the process produced for all those entertainment as opposed to sport's fans excitement.
 
I'd be surprised if Portugal attempt to go toe-to-toe with Spain in a competitive game.

I'd expect them to park the bus like they did against Germany and try to get a goal on the break.
 
Steve-O21 said:
long post containing "I know better than you" info
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No, in fact the short passing game that Spain does is energy conserving, because they're almost entirely JOGGING. Jogging does not take a heavy toll on fatigue, sprinting does.

And I meant that it kills the game because the entertainment value decreases. Watching a team completely decimating the opponent is fun if the stronger team does it with showmanship, but an even match is still preferred.

Spain have the ability to decimate any opponent, but instead they choose to decimate the game. If this is the direction football is taking globally, and we all know there aren't enough Messi's around to make it interesting, it is sad for football. Luckily there aren't many teams with the ability, patience and destructiveness in them to do this.

Spain's football is effective in the sense that it obviously brings results, but it is nothing more than a finesse version of Catenaccio. Actually, I prefer Catenaccio over this. Because the games tend to be more entertaining.

There is a major difference between Greece's destructive football and Spains destructive football. Greece does it because of lack of ability in several areas, but they sure know how to counter attack. Spain does it because they are good enough to do it. In the latter case, they've obviously good enough to win by playing great football as well. I'm not asking them to attack non stop, but passing the ball from the byline back to the midfield because they've gotten the idea that crosses are bad, then they lost my vote.

It pains me to say this, but I hope any other team than Spain win this tournament unless they start playing some champion-worthy attacking football. I don't like 1-0 riders, even Italy was never as bad as this.
 
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Aboutreika18 said:
I'd be surprised if Portugal attempt to go toe-to-toe with Spain in a competitive game.

I'd expect them to park the bus like they did against Germany and try to get a goal on the break.
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Parking the bus would be only playing into the hands of Spain. Spain's style of play has no problem with teams parking the bus, they actually like it as they can then have all the possession and decide the pace of the game while having all the time of the world to break the defense.

As can be seen by Italy's courageous and successful performance against Spain, it's better to play a passionate attacking football against Spain. I think Italy managed to have nearly as much possession as Spain and the same amounts of good goal-opportunities.
 
People are too harsh on Spain and exaggerating.

I do find them enjoyable and they do put on a masterclass and have if nothing more, provided football with something it's never quite seen before. The Barca and Spain of past couple years plays football the way almost no team has in the history of the game! They're pioneers and not only that but very successful at in terms of results too. This is all a good thing.

BUT, for me personally, I find watching Germany MUCH more exciting. Germany can pass it around and build up play patiently as Spain do and yet at times pick up the tempo, making direct passes, good crosses, a few GOOD long-range efforts from several players and overall is much more 'balanced' and hence entertaining in their attack.

So I do agree with people like Jamezinho who's saying, look, there's a middle ground to all this. You don't have to tika-tika-tika-tika 90 minutes because that CAN be as boring as a team just hoofing up long balls all the time, at times.

Spain has good strikers and wide players. So the insistence of them to not use them but play something like 5 more or less 'central' midfielders is designed not to 'create' great chances but to keep the ball at all costs and that's not entertaining.

Germany's attacks are much more varied and dangerous as a result. The opposition never quite knows whether Schweinsteiger is gonna do a long-range shot, whether Lahm is gonna cross for Klose or Gomez or cut in and have a long-range dip himself, or whether Ozil, Reus, Poldoski and Schurrle and co are gonna do tika tika and nice short 1-two's like Spain does a lot too.

So that's why personally I prefer Germany and think they can beat Spain or at least up a great fight and are not oly the best team in the tournament but the most entertaining as well.

BUT, I'm not gonna sit here and criticize Spain and be harsh on them like many people are and I think some have ulterior motives. They ARE a great side. They ARE world and European champions and may well be the first team to defend its crown and I DO enjoy watching them. Just not as much as Germany. ;)

Also I don't anticipate them to have any problems against Portugal. I think they'll be in the final and probably against Germany again just as the final 4 years ago, except this time Germany wants to take revenge and is better equipped to give them a challenge. Should be a cLASSIC final!
 
It's not a question of ability - no one in their right mind would say Spain isn't technically on another planet - it's the mindset.

If Spain were more inclined, they could string together moves that involved attacking player. But they CHOOSE not to. There are countless times in a match involving Spain where the wide player has the ball and could cross, but he CHOOSES to go back to the middle, then back to defense, then recycle again. It's not because of some lack of quality or some perceived inability to cross. Obviously they can do this, and hey presto the one time it happened in the first half yesterday they scored.

They're almost like a tease. At least with Barca they try to score, a lot, though I guess that directness comes from non-Spanish players, particularly Messi and Alves. The Spanish national team is definitely more obssessed with choking a match than scoring goals.

Which, as everyone has noted, is fine - they've won their last two tournaments plyaing that way.

But for me the way they CHOOSE to play football means that they'll never capture the imagination the way some national teams in the past have. I'm sure those players with their 3 medals could care less, of course ;)
 
Sabatasso said:
No, in fact the short passing game that Spain does is energy conserving, because they're almost entirely JOGGING. Jogging does not take a heavy toll on fatigue, sprinting does.
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They jog once they have formed a triangle or diamond shape because they are in position to receive and play the ball in that space, but their game (especially when playing a 4-6-0 formation) is predicated on keeping possession narrowly in order to open up the flanks. The outside back/wingbacks run into that new space and the ball is switched over to their side. The midfielders must then quickly shift over in order to support the outside back/wingback with the ball. That is a lot of running.

Sabatasso said:
I'm not asking them to attack non stop, but passing the ball from the byline back to the midfield because they've gotten the idea that crosses are bad, then they lost my vote.
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I don't think they believe that crosses are bad. They are simply playing to their strengths. Because of the formation and personnel they play, it would be silly for them to put a lot of crosses into the box because they have a noticeable height disadvantage.

Spain
  • Fabregas: 179 cm
  • Iniesta: 170 cm
  • Silva: 170 cm
Italy
  • Bonucci: 190 cm
  • Chiellini: 186 cm
  • De Rossi: 184 cm
Ireland
  • Dunne: 188 cm
  • St. Ledger: 183 cm
Croatia
  • Corluka: 193 cm
  • Schildenfeld: 192 cm
France
  • Koscielny: 186 cm
  • Rami: 190 cm

They also pass the ball from side to side more because it is in their best interest to stretch their opponent. Teams defend very compactly against Spain in an attempt to limit the amount of depth they have available to them. Couple that with their opponent's desire to play a 4-5-1 formation and you can see why it is so necessary that they resort to a more methodical style of build-up play. They need to play this way in order to be able to play balls in behind the opposition's defense. They must constantly switch the point of attack. They must pass the ball. Doing so forces the other team out of position and subsequently creates the depth needed to play a penetrating through pass which then allows them to go directly to goal. I'm sure if it was easier they would look to play that ball all of the time, however, it is not always there...especially at the European Championships, where the play is of a arguably of a higher standard than any other national team tournament in the world, and where teams are relatively more familiar with the opposition.
 
You don't need to hoof crosses, in fact everybody knows that hard crosses along the floor up to 175 cm behind the defense is the most effective. I assume Silva and Iniesta are able to jump 5 cm in the worst case...

besides, Torres have been in there quite a lot and he's 185cm and occasionally part kangoroo.
 
Well done Espanha, once again. Brilliant football, thank you for that. Expecting a great match against us. :)
 
gabe.paul.logan said:
watch out against Portugal you are not so convincing and u played against only week teams yet
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I'd say France & Croatia are on par with Portugal and Italy is better.

The only weAk opponents they've had is Ireland.

Portugal on the other hand got real lucky with Russia fucking up so bad and played a really weak Czech republic team in quarter finals.

Holland were a mess and Denmark were decent and they've lost against the only good team they've played against which was Germany. And it was against Germany that Ronaldo was invisible.

Anyway should be an interesting match but I think Spain will make it to finals.
 
PLF said:
I'd say France & Croatia are on par with Portugal and Italy is better.
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Hmm...Italy better? Can't agree on that. A team that in 4 matches only managed to win Ireland (and it wasn't a great performance)...maybe on theory, yeah.

(not considering penalties)
 
Spain tendance to possess the ball has an only one reason :
as long as I keep the ball, my opponent has less chances to attack me ..

this is why Spain are holding the ball .. that's efficace and bring glories and wins .. BUT, you can't say it's a beautiful game ..
maybe you say it's beautiful because some skills by Silva, Iniesta and others ..
 
Azur, Did you watch the game today?

Italy completely outclassed England. The stats say it all. 33 shots compared to like 6 of which only 2 were on target. Buffon basically didn't have to make a save all night until the penalties lol.

England had a couple good chances inside the first 15 mins but even then, they failed to test keeper (Like Rooney diving header which should've been a goal). After that it was the Mario Balotelli MIS-show as he wasted chance after chance. 4 clear cut chances. Had he not been wasteful, they would've beaten them by a couple goals at least and made England look worse than Ireland.

Anyway, what I said certainly IS open for debate so I hear you. :)

That's just my opinion. We don't know for a fact if Italy is better than Portugal or if France / Croatia are on par with them. These are my opinions.

What we do know is the Czech Republic team Portugal faced was a JOKE!
 
PLF said:
Azur, Did you watch the game today?

Italy completely outclassed England. The stats say it all. 33 shots compared to like 6 of which only 2 were on target. Buffon basically didn't have to make a save all night until the penalties lol.
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penalty shootout included :JAY:
 
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