Software piracy - what is your stance?

What do you think of software piracy?

  • Buy a game and support the industry you tight bastard!

    Votes: 7 29.2%

  • They make enough money, it won't hurt if I download their game

    Votes: 13 54.2%

  • I don't really care El Diego, gaming is for geeks; I prefer shagging

    Votes: 4 16.7%
  • Total voters
    24
Ad16 said:
Are you trying to make me feel responsible for that because I download the odd song here and there? That's bollocks. From what I've read this was one of many reasons Tower went bankrupt. Piracy alone doesn't close CD stores, don't make out it does. All stores these days are losing revenue from CD sales. A lot of it due to the new iPod generation. The money is going elsewhere, lining others pockets. It's a sign of the times. Technology advances. They have to deal with it. I don't feel guilty if people lose their jobs, it's not my fault. This isn't to say I don't feel sorry for them, of course I do. Unfortunately this happens.

And for the record, I have never stolen from anyone. Any song I may have downloaded is a digital copy of one that someone else keeps. They retain the original. It's not the same as someone stealing a physical thing that the victim loses. So there is a difference.

Can you honestly say you are innocent in this? You have never downloaded a song etc? What about the examples I gave in my previous post? I can't believe someone can get on a high horse like this and feel completely absolved.
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oh no my friend, i have downloaded, and it was wrong. It was immoral and unethical. Im no angel, the difference is, i can admit what i did was wrong. I dont do it anymore.


"And for the record, I have never stolen from anyone. Any song I may have downloaded is a digital copy of one that someone else keeps. They retain the original. It's not the same as someone stealing a physical thing that the victim loses. So there is a difference. "

the victim lost potential income. You stole that from the industry. Why do you think its illegal to do what you did?
Why do you think there are laws against what you have done. If the police were to raid your home, and found mp3 files on your hardrive, and you didnt have proof of purchase or the original CD, you have commited a crime(at least in the US you have).


"It's not the same as someone stealing a physical thing that the victim loses. So there is a difference. "

what is the difference, technology allows us to copy digital files, SO YOUR SAYING IF TECHNOLOGY ALLOWED US TO COPY CARS AND GIVE THEM TO YOUR FRIENDS, THATS OK?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?

your wrong man, sorry to say, but your wrong, you argument does not hold water.


"Piracy alone doesn't close CD stores, don't make out it does. All stores these days are losing revenue from CD sales. A lot of it due to the new iPod generation."

no doubt my friend, but it sure helped speed things along... and tower records also sold movies.... but you said it didnt hurt anyone, but now your admitting that pirating did contribute to towers demise? so which is it? Does pirating hurt people or not?

you are a petty thief there is not a difference between you and someone who walks into a store and steals a cd, none, and the majority of western nations agree with that, just take a look at copyright laws, you violate those when you copy your buddies music...
 
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I think we can agree to disagree on this one my friend. Personally I don't think it's really a big deal to download a few songs, you obviously do. You, like I, have acquired music in a frowned upon way. We are both as bad as each other. I know it's socially wrong as well - I don't think I denied that that was the general concencus (I think) - but at the same time I still don't feel any personal immorality because of it.

csaunders said:
If the police were to raid your home, and found mp3 files on your hardrive, and you didnt have proof of purchase or the original CD, you have commited a crime(at least in the US you have).
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What a waste of police time that would be. This isn't exactly crime of the century stuff. I would hope law enforcement around the world would focus on more pressing issues than the download of a few songs.
csaunders said:
what is the difference, technology allows us to copy digital files, SO YOUR SAYING IF TECHNOLOGY ALLOWED US TO COPY CARS AND GIVE THEM TO YOUR FRIENDS, THATS OK?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?
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I don't really know what to say to that, it's a ridiculous comparison. I know if I had a magic wand that could miraculously copy a Lamborghini and make it appear outside my house I would make it happen. Oh, but that fantasy would be morally wrong to think about of course.
csaunders said:
no doubt my friend, but it sure helped speed things along... and tower records also sold movies.... but you said it didnt hurt anyone, but now your admitting that pirating did contribute to towers demise? so which is it? Does pirating hurt people or not?
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It sped things along because the music stores were to slow to see the internet age creeping up on them. I didn't admit it helped Towers demise, I said I heard it did. Just like I heard that major factors were heavy debt from excessive expansion and higher prices than rivals. If piracy contributed, it was a small factor. Otherwise it would happen across the board to stores like Virgin and HMV.

There are different markets for different people. There are probably enough people still looking for hard media to keep the high street stores going. And they all have online shops as well if people desire their product that way. Individual tastes need to be catered for. If the music companies want to counter piracy, they need to provide incentives for customers to go legal. At the moment it's to easy to do the opposite for the same reward.
csaunders said:
you are a petty thief there is not a difference between you and someone who walks into a store and steals a cd, none, and the majority of western nations agree with that, just take a look at copyright laws, you violate those when you copy your buddies music...
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So are you, so get off the moral high ground. You doing it it the past doesn't take anything away from the 'crime', you are in the same group as those who are downloading to this day my friend. I still don't think getting a track off the net or through copying a mates CD is equal to stealing one from a store. That would be the action of a criminal. Double standards? maybe, I don't know, but the comparison doesn't equate in my view.

I think that downloading content on the sly is something that no one actually cares about in reality. Apart from major companies and their fat cat bosses. I do feel sorry if it effects young musicians trying to get into the business. Although most of them these days have been forced to allow free downloads of their material to gain exposure in a market flooded with utter shite.

At the end of the day - like everything in life - it's a personal choice you must make. I'm just giving my view on the whole thing, while playing devils advocate somewhat. As I said at the start of this post, I think we will have to agree to disagree. This has turned into a two man show, and we aren't going to change each others minds. :)
 
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I think its pretty simple. When you buy a game, you're paying for the effort that developers put into making that game, not the disc its burnt (or pressed) on. If it was all about the value of the disc, why dont you go and buy a blank disc of your own to play around with. Not fun, is it?
 
And i think that shagging is for geeks.

BUT...

I have to admit that CSaunders' arguments have convinced me...someway when somebody feels the need to play Robin Hood there are always innocent victims...sometimes you are a hell of a debater (don't know if that is English) CSaunders...i think it's the beneficial effects of Belgian beer...
 
gerd said:
I have to admit that CSaunders' arguments have convinced me...someway when somebody feels the need to play Robin Hood there are always innocent victims...sometimes you are a hell of a debater (don't know if that is English) CSaunders...i think it's the beneficial effects of Belgian beer...
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Yeah that's probably true. I enjoy my discussions with csaunders and commend him for his stance. Anyone who campaigns that strongly is worthy of respect, whether I agree with them or not.

Just quickly about the issue of pirate games (which this thread was supposed to be about). I see no sense in it personally, it's more trouble than it's worth. Unlike music - that I feel is overpriced - I pay for all my gaming needs. Maybe that's hypocritical? I don't know. It's something close to my heart and I'm quite happy to support the industry, whether paying a premium or not.
 
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I agree 100% with csaunders on this matter.

Piracy is a "form" of stealing, simple as that and I do not agree with it at all. I work for a company that makes software, and makes a lot of money per year. Our total revenue is approximately $91billion, of that our profit is "only" $9billion. Ok so you could argue that it is still a lot of money, and it is, but it also shows just how much has to be spent on running a business. If all our customers decided to file share our software to each other then we would be screwed in one year.

Ad16, if you were the CEO of lets say Konami and you had personally shaped and developed a team of talented people to kick out the greatest ever version of WE/PES. How would you feel, as the company executive if 24hours later 3 million people had downloaded your game and 20,000 people bought it? I think you'd be pretty pissed.

The above example can be applied to ANY form of entertainment, not just games.
 
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You can't argue with LJ, he's completely right. But as selfish as it is (again, I have a few consoles and only one modified, which is still wrong), I refuse to pay £40/£50 for a game. I don't care how long it lasts, that is a ridiculous price.

Consoles are £200/£300/£400, and if the games are £40/£50 and unmodifiable, then I don't get the console and the company doesn't get any of my money, full-stop. If the company would rather have that then fine, I don't care, I can get something else.

Bring out the console at whatever price you want (within reason), sell the games at £20 or even £30, and I wouldn't modify the console.

For me personally, it's as simple as that.

I haven't modified any console before this one, apart from the PS2 (and that was purely to play WE imports and patches, I always bought originals - even now I only decided to modify to play a US game that we won't see for months). When the games were £30 each, it wasn't worth the hassle of discs working and then not working because of the written data just dying away, and I was happy enough because you were getting decent entertainment at a decent price. I wasn't playing originals because I'm an angel, I couldn't give a toss what other people categorise me as. It was purely because it was a fair price, and a disc that would last until you were fed up of the game.

I don't want a dodgy console, I don't want dodgy discs, I don't think anybody does, but honestly, I would rather have no consoles and spend £1000/£2000 on something else than be a gamer for a year. I mean, I could have Sky with that, watch high-definition football every week, watch all the films, watch TV every minute of every day and burn my eyes out if that's what I wanted to do, and have money left over to burn. You could have hundreds of channels, all totally different, 24 hours a day every day for an entire year, for so much less than a console and five games that you'd finish in a week.

You can't justify piracy no matter what, but I don't think you can justify the price-hikes in games either. Sorry, I know it takes a team of hundreds, which it didn't years ago, but games are games for God's sake, they're not real, they're stupid little bits of fun that you put on when you're bored, and you can spend well over a grand in a year if you have one console and ten new games, or two consoles and a few games on each.

Don't get me wrong, I love games and I'm an addict, but a game is a game and nothing else. And you can't say "but you can do so much more with a console now" - great, but I'm a gamer, I buy a console for the games.

Companies should just scrap all of this "it's not just a games console, it's a movie player, an online TV streamer, a toaster and a coffee-maker" shit and go back to making a GAMES CONSOLE. There's £10m-£20m of console company expenditure gone. Then go back to making games fun and not hiring 72 Hollywood special effects guys, or grabbing 15 exclusive licenses and 62 exclusive movie licenses. There's the games company expenditure slashed. End result? Cheaper consoles, cheaper games, far more customers and far less modification.

Look at the DS, it's aimed at everybody, and I know so many people who have one (and wouldn't have a clue how to play backups even if they wanted to, because it's aimed at a market from 8 to 80 - in other words, people who play games for fun). The PSP plays UMD movies and does your laundry for you, the games are mostly FPSs and FIFA-style licensefests, and everyone I know with a PSP has sold it, even the people who'd had it modified.

If the industry takes no notice of all that then I'm sorry but I don't feel that much guilt.
 
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gerd said:
And i think that shagging is for geeks.

BUT...

I have to admit that CSaunders' arguments have convinced me...someway when somebody feels the need to play Robin Hood there are always innocent victims...sometimes you are a hell of a debater (don't know if that is English) CSaunders...i think it's the beneficial effects of Belgian beer...
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whenever my girlfriend and i start arguing(which is rare) she says to me "ok now no lawyer talk" cause she thinks i should be a lawyer cause somehow I always win our arguments(which is pretty good if your arguing with a girl!!!) well not always, but the majority. Man and i do love belgium beer, my girl and i might go to europe for three weeks, im trying to convince her that we need to spend a week in belgium at the brewries... i already have her hooked on duvel..

back on topic, fair enough AD16!
 
No doubt LJ is right. I make no bones about it being wrong. I don't think I ever said it was right to do this kind of thing. All I said was that I didn't feel immoral downloading a few songs here and there. Just like JB doesn't feel guilty for whatever he has done with games. Does it make us criminals or bad people? No, not in my view.

I don't try to justify the use of pirated media to anyone else, but I do try and give reasons to why individuals choose to do it. The price of music is far too high in my view. Individual songs to download are too expensive, I stand by this. If songs were a fair price like 30p I might choose to get them legit. Maybe I shouldn't get the music if I can't afford it? fair point. But the download of a trivial mp3 file doesn't pull on the heart strings enough for me not to get it if I want. Sorry if people don't agree with this, but it's a personal choice.

Jack Bauer said:
Companies should just scrap all of this "it's not just a games console, it's a movie player, an online TV streamer, a toaster and a coffee-maker" shit and go back to making a GAMES CONSOLE. There's £10m-£20m of console company expenditure gone. Then go back to making games fun and not hiring 72 Hollywood special effects guys, or grabbing 15 exclusive licenses and 62 exclusive movie licenses. There's the games company expenditure slashed. End result? Cheaper consoles, cheaper games, far more customers and far less modification.
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BTW, I completely agree with this.
 
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csaunders said:
its still wrong and immoral, if the price of car wasnt so high, then i woudln't carjack... try that defense in a courtroom. You guys have a weak weak weak argument
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Diffrent senario. Not like it really is hurting someone in the pockets, as the game companies are making well enough. And if someone comes out with this crap about the makers of the game then blame the god dam company for charging so much :x [-X :-x :nono: [-( :-\" :mrgreen:
 
jord@n said:
Diffrent senario. Not like it really is hurting someone in the pockets, as the game companies are making well enough. And if someone comes out with this crap about the makers of the game then blame the god dam company for charging so much :x [-X :-x :nono: [-( :-\" :mrgreen:
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but i stole a car from richard branson, he is a billionare so it doesnt hurt him, so its not illegal or immoral...


yeah nice logic mate
 
I am very much with CSaunders and LemonJelly in this thing, I have a modified PS2 and thats it, it allows me to play imports and patched versions of said series which brought us here, but I only have a patched version of WE10, and thats it, and of course and original copy. I have over the years played other import games, but usually with a boot disc on the DC and GC and my Saturn was chipped when the PAL release list dried up.

I really dont have a clue about patching, nor DL music or movies or games from anything other than iTunes etc, I work hard for my money, and well I like to think that when I'm shelling out for something, someone somewhere has worked hard too, and thus they deserve there share. As to the high price of games, alot is down to retailer I reckon, they dont make very much on hardware sales, hence why Bundles are popular with them, and you can be sure when games are in sales or being discounted, they are still making money....
 
With Nokami releasing the same shit every year since 2003 we should at least have the right to download PES.
 
rockykabir said:
On a lighter note,

Microsoft sold only 244 genuine copies of Windows Vista in China
http://www.newlaunches.com/archives/only_244_copies_of_genuine_windows_vista_sold_in_china.php

:lmao:
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thats actually a huge problem.... china is able to play on an un even playing field in the world economy. they can pay slave wages, steal our ideas and copyrights, pirate our movies, music, and thoughts... surpress there people, all for there profit. While our economies will suffer in the long run, i actually dont think thats funny at all
 
"I'd buy that for a dollar"

I find it amusing. A market of more than 1 billion Chinese, and Microsoft only manage to flog a handful of Vista's. Pathetic. Why spend millions promoting a product in a nation where the average consumer can't afford it. Piracy was always going to prevail. The population of China won't mind how legit it is when purchasing their new operating system for $1.
 
My view is that if i can get something for cheaper i will

If i was in business it would piss me of but i aint

P.S. i would also clone a car if the technology was there and sell it on ebay
 
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It's unfortunate but if someone offers you Windows Vista for $1 and guarantees it's fully-working, and you say no and buy the retail version for $200, then either you're a saint or you've got more money than you know what to do with.

Of course it's totally and utterly wrong, morally and legally, but if you're prepared to pay $200 for something you can have for $1... Well, I don't know really. You're a better man than me if you do.
 
Jack Bauer said:
It's unfortunate but if someone offers you Windows Vista for $1 and guarantees it's fully-working, and you say no and buy the retail version for $200, then either you're a saint or you've got more money than you know what to do with.

Of course it's totally and utterly wrong, morally and legally, but if you're prepared to pay $200 for something you can have for $1... Well, I don't know really. You're a better man than me if you do.
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thats my point to a T
 
Microsoft do make a lot of their finances from corporate purchases of their products. When you buy a Dell machine, a proportion of that price is for the Windows license.

The problem is how about all those companies in China? This is a country who is playing a rapidly growing role in the world market and it is shocking, as csaunders says, that their companies are allowed to get away with it :(

In other news, Microsoft sells software bundles to developing countries for $3:
http://www.engadget.com/2007/04/20/microsoft-will-sell-3-software-to-developing-countries/

Includes XP starter pack and Office Home and Student 2007
 
MrCoopz said:
My view is that if i can get something for cheaper i will

If i was in business it would piss me of but i aint

P.S. i would also clone a car if the technology was there and sell it on ebay
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so why dont you steal gas, food, tv's, etc? cause the internet allows you to do these things anonymously, but its still the same exact thing
 
csaunders said:
thats actually a huge problem.... china is able to play on an un even playing field in the world economy. they can pay slave wages, steal our ideas and copyrights, pirate our movies, music, and thoughts... surpress there people, all for there profit. While our economies will suffer in the long run, i actually dont think thats funny at all
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I'm afraid that that is as much a cultural problem than an economic ons Csaunders...
in western culture being original is a merit, in Asia it isn't.
When i studied Chinese we had some subjects about Chinese arts. The third famous classical Chinese painter is famous because he copied th second best, and the second best is considered as goos because he copied the best one...the best one: there are no copies left of him after a fire centuries ago...
Caligraphy: the same...
In asian society the worst sentence is being placed outside society, being individualistic...
The fact that they copy things is a tradition which became an economic ace but is cultural at its origins...
 
Stan said:
I'm afraid that that is as much a cultural problem than an economic ons Csaunders...
in western culture being original is a merit, in Asia it isn't.
When i studied Chinese we had some subjects about Chinese arts. The third famous classical Chinese painter is famous because he copied th second best, and the second best is considered as goos because he copied the best one...the best one: there are no copies left of him after a fire centuries ago...
Caligraphy: the same...
In asian society the worst sentence is being placed outside society, being individualistic...
The fact that they copy things is a tradition which became an economic ace but is cultural at its origins...
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ok, but we are in a global economy, in the global world, copying is a form of stealing, they need to compete fairly or the entire concept of a free market is gone
 
I think the difference between stealing someone's car and "stealing" music is that when you steal the car you are taking it from someone and leaving them with nothing.

If a someone invented something that allowed you to copy your car to a hard drive, distribute it over the internet and print it out at the other end then that would be the same.

Obviously it is wrong but I've bought 5 CDs this month and if there's still another 2 or 3 I want I will download them (and if they're any good they will be bought the next time I have some money).
 
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JayM said:
I think the difference between stealing someone's car and "stealing" music is that when you steal the car you are taking it from someone and leaving them with nothing.

If a someone invented something that allowed you to copy your car to a hard drive, distribute it over the internet and print it out at the other end then that would be the same.

Obviously it is wrong but I've bought 5 CDs this month and if there's still another 2 or 3 I want I will download them (and if they're any good they will be bought the next time I have some money).
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your just talking semantics, but you do agree that its wrong, at least you admit it
 
Speaking as someone who works in the industry, and have done so for many years at a number of companies, i can tell you now that no one gives a rats arse if the game is good just so long as it passes submission on time and they can milk the game buying public on launch day. One or two developers do and will be happy to put a game back in order to make it right, but like i said no one cares which is why i have no problem with piracy, plus i dont get paid enough to feel guilty about it.
 
morecoffeeman said:
Speaking as someone who works in the industry, and have done so for many years at a number of companies, i can tell you now that no one gives a rats arse if the game is good just so long as it passes submission on time and they can milk the game buying public on launch day. One or two developers do and will be happy to put a game back in order to make it right, but like i said no one cares which is why i have no problem with piracy, plus i dont get paid enough to feel guilty about it.
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i call bullshit. If a game sucks, there not going to milk anyone, but there investors...
 
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