So... what's the deal with the student protests?

EatonTJ

EatonTJ

Why Today Doesn't Suck.
11 April 2002
Just saw the news coverage of the riots this morning in the USA... my understanding is that some group of students (a union?) are taking umbrage to a reduction on government tuition assistance and decided to riot in protest?

Over here, it looks like these kids are a bunch of assholes. What's the tenor in England?
 
The government announced its budget cuts a few weeks ago, and this included cutting funding for universities and allowing them to charge up to £9000 for tuition fees, when it was previously around £3000 for all universities. The government made it so that student loans give you more money that needs to be paid back once you start earning £21,000. So for a 3 year course, your debt for tuition fees ONLY will be £27,000, and on top of that you need to add maintenance loans etc.

It's unfair for the younger generations that they've opted to turn higher education into an even more elitist sector than it already is. Students will be in even more debt with the higher loans and universities will all push for the highest possible tuition fee of £9000 (right now only top universities can justify it).

On top of this, the Liberal Democrats promised that they would never allow tuition fees to rise during the elections, but guess what? they allowed it to rise, hence so much anger towards them. imo the best thing to do is step down to show that they actually stand by their values.

The budget cuts are the result of people from other sectors fucking around and allowing to get off free, while the future generations are being fucked over by expensive higher education.

The protests are 85% peaceful, but like all protests, you have a minority of idiots that stir shit up. The police were also wrong to kettle students and run at them with horses last night, which freaked people out and basically sparked student retaliations.

I've just finished my masters so thankfully I don't have to worry about fees, but to me, it's extremely unfair that tuition fees will now be dictated by universities.

Anyway, I think I've covered it. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
 
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So, the government allows universities to increase their tuition (which was previously capped or something?) while simultaneously giving students less "free" money to pay for the increase? And the kids are upset that they will now have to pay for their education themselves (or through loans that will have to be repaid)... and they are upset that the overall cost of tuition is also higher?

I guess what is "unfair" is that previous generations got a free ride, but it seems like the kids lack any sort of moral authority in their argument. Rioting/protesting over getting less charity seems ridiculous to me, especially in the current economic climate, but after seeing the same in France and Greece, I suppose that's just what the Euro expects.

I certainly hope we can avoid this in America, but I doubt it.
 
The main issue, imo, that the students have is that they will have far more debt than in the past for their education. The fees will still be capped, but at £9000 rather than £3000, which is quite significant. The government made it easier to borrow money, but students will be borrowing much more.
 
Milanista said:
The main issue, imo, that the students have is that they will have far more debt than in the past for their education. The fees will still be capped, but at £9000 rather than £3000, which is quite significant. The government made it easier to borrow money, but students will be borrowing much more.
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Borrowing money certainly sucks, but it should help to prioritize their education... at least it did me. The whole point of education is to learn some craft or skill that can make you some money in the marketplace. Maybe with there being a greater financial responsibility attached, people will focus on getting an education in areas giving them more cache in the marketplace, and less on the humanities.

Still though, loan debt is a killer. I paid for 5 years of university and 3 years of law school through working and loans and my biggest bill each month is my student loan debt. Certainly, it was all worth it, but had I not studied in areas that ended up earning me a decent wage I'd be up shit creek sans paddle.
 
Over here in NL they are tightening the budgets and loan periods but it's not as bad as in the UK. I'm not sure about the UK, but over here nobody has a free ride. You have your annual university fees (1700euro per year when I was still there) and you could take out studentloans if needed at a "soft" rate of 4% or something. You would get 3 "extra" years to finish your degree above the normal duration (so a 4 year course would have to be completed in 7 years) and if you took longer you would have to pay higher tuition fees (3500euro per year).

Admittedly it's a soft ride compared to the US, but on the otherhand everybody who is smart enough (and not wealthy enough) can get a good education in NL. For a similar education in the US at Harvard (Techical University of Delft is one of the top 100, or 50 worldwide last time I checked, Harvard top 10) you would have to pay 100k per year.

But I think the main issue of frustration is 1; that the goverment (or part of it) lied to get votes and 2; that the financial world f#$ked everybody and the future generations are being made to pay. It's quit a bitter experience when banks get 20bil bailouts and the goverment then turns round saying they now need to save 20bil and we have to pay for it. Over here the banks are already making record profits again, tossers!

I think it's good that the students will now have to be more focused and can't piss about but a hike of 300% is out of order imo.
 
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When i was at university (that is almost 30 years ago...) tuition fee was 250 euro (but of course people earned less too).
I studied quite far from home and i had to rent a room. My parents did not earn much, it was tough on them. After two years i decided to pay it all myself. I did dozens of jobs (the most interesting was being some sort of janitor in a girls student home) and also earned money DJ-ing (old style, that is).
Still i think education should be very cheap. That is good for the future of a society. I don't agree at all with eatonj, you sound like a 70 year old, but this is the single biggest cultural difference between continental Europe and the USA. England is something in betweem both systems, but we on the continent think England is becoming increasingly a country without middle class.

I'm not saying that "our" system is better than the one in the USA. Personally i would not want to live in a system like in the USA (and the UK), but like i said this is cultural. Both systems were very succesfully for the USA and continental Europe (i'm not so sure about the UK however. When i come in the UK i have the impression it's a poor country).

I think the students have every right to protest, butr of course there are assholes who are a disgrace...just like at rock festivals and football matches.
 
The UK is more of a socialist country than the US. We value the NHS and the free healthcare that is available to everyone, and similarly we make higher education accessible (although not free) to all. That's why the rise in tuition fees has created such a stir whereas in the US this is probably seen as no big deal. Over there you can either afford it or you cannot.

Whatever way you look at it a 300% rise in tuition fees is simply not on. I can't think of any other area where such a rise would be considered acceptable (food, petrol prices, etc). I think the government has a case to raise tuition fees, and had they increased to £4k-£5k I think it would have been much more palatable.

So I have a lot of sympathy for the students. I went through the system myself and came away with a £13k loan to pay off which seemed like a hell of a lot at the time but compared to what the kids today will face when they graduate - it's nothing. £9k tuition fees will freeze out many talented kids from getting a higher education and the UK will be poorer for it in the long run.

The only good thing that may come out of this is that people will realise that you don't have to get a degree to get on in life. Perhaps we will see a return to kids learning trades or starting from the bottom of the ladder at a company and working their way up. Going to uni has become mainstream in the UK and from my experience of university there were many, many people there that really shouldn't be there for various reasons, and some of the courses on offer are just a joke.
 
gerd said:
England is something in betweem both systems, but we on the continent think England is becoming increasingly a country without middle class.
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Sorry Gerd, but I disagree. imo England's middle class is growing rapidly, but the problem is that it's sucking people from the lower upper class and upper lower class into it, so you have wealthy middle class to struggling middle class. A country with a shrinking middle class is Italy, I think there's too much of a split.

I personally also don't really like dividing people into the class system, but if I have to, then I do :P
 
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That's my communist history stef, i used to be very, very left...i was something of a Trotskist a long time ago (i was preaching the world revolution).
 
I heard some twonk on the radio today.. a student who phoned in... saying that more and more students she knows are finding they're so hard up that they've turned to drug dealing to get some disposable income.
 
Radiation said:
I heard some twonk on the radio today.. a student who phoned in... saying that more and more students she knows are finding they're so hard up that they've turned to drug dealing to get some disposable income.
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When I was a student everybody was a drug dealer anyway....apart from me :DD
 
gerd said:
When i was at university (that is almost 30 years ago...) tuition fee was 250 euro (but of course people earned less too).
I studied quite far from home and i had to rent a room. My parents did not earn much, it was tough on them. After two years i decided to pay it all myself. I did dozens of jobs (the most interesting was being some sort of janitor in a girls student home) and also earned money DJ-ing (old style, that is).
Still i think education should be very cheap. That is good for the future of a society. I don't agree at all with eatonj, you sound like a 70 year old, but this is the single biggest cultural difference between continental Europe and the USA. England is something in betweem both systems, but we on the continent think England is becoming increasingly a country without middle class.

I'm not saying that "our" system is better than the one in the USA. Personally i would not want to live in a system like in the USA (and the UK), but like i said this is cultural. Both systems were very succesfully for the USA and continental Europe (i'm not so sure about the UK however. When i come in the UK i have the impression it's a poor country).

I think the students have every right to protest, butr of course there are assholes who are a disgrace...just like at rock festivals and football matches.
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I too think education should be cheaper. The main reason it is so expensive over here (USA) is because of how easy it is to secure grants/scholarships/loans/etc. to go to college. As soon as the federal government started pumping money to students for tuition (while simultaneously, the demand for education rose at a faster than usual pace) universities started increasing their tuition as everyone could afford to pay for it, and demand was at all an time high.

Personally, I think far too much money is wasted on education at least in the USA. Unless you are focusing on science or math, or some other specific industry (law, medicine, etc) I don't think society reaps the benefits of the investment.
 
EatonTJ said:
I too think education should be cheaper. The main reason it is so expensive over here (USA) is because of how easy it is to secure grants/scholarships/loans/etc. to go to college. As soon as the federal government started pumping money to students for tuition (while simultaneously, the demand for education rose at a faster than usual pace) universities started increasing their tuition as everyone could afford to pay for it, and demand was at all an time high.

Personally, I think far too much money is wasted on education at least in the USA. Unless you are focusing on science or math, or some other specific industry (law, medicine, etc) I don't think society reaps the benefits of the investment.
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that is not the main reason, that is one of the reasons(there are many others), at some point the cost of certain universities will be so high that they will see a substantial decrease and in the number of applicants forcing them to lower there tuition. Also because of this investment by the government higher education is available to all, not just the upper middle class and wealthy in this country. There is choice in this country, not all colleges and universities are expensive in fact the avg tuition per year is $8000 around $32000 for four years... a lot of Americans with less education spend more on a car...(and yes you can live with mom and dad for four years if you have too)

http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/collegeandfamily/p74829.asp


case example private college cornell

http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/Nov06/tuition.so.much.sl.html

http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2009/10/29/why-does-college-cost-so-much.aspx




colleges go by that old capitalist mentality of competition.... for every expensive school there are many much cheaper alternatives...
 
But isn't it easier to find good jobs if have a degree of an expensive school?
Here in Belgium we have something strange. I think all in all universities are very democratic. But the strange thing is that parents want their young kids to go to "good" schools. I have two childeren: 7 year old and 10 year old. They went to school (kindergarten) since they were 2,5 year olds. Less than 1 km away from our house there are 4 schools (this is very exceptionally, considering that we don't live in a town or a city). It turns out that all these schools claim their unique selling point is very good education that prepares childeren for university (from the age of 2,5 years, which is ridiculous). My daughter was a slow learner, and she really struggled. In her first real school year with exams (6 year old), the school said that if she had less than 80% she should leave the school. She managed 84%. Now she's doing fine, but i think this is nonsense...the work rate for these childeren is way too high. Our education system has a reputation for being the best in the world, but this is not a good thing for young childeren. My daughter is now 10 years old, she is currently having exams. Every single day she has to study two or three hours...i think this is too much for a 10 year old kid.
 
gerd said:
But isn't it easier to find good jobs if have a degree of an expensive school?
Here in Belgium we have something strange. I think all in all universities are very democratic. But the strange thing is that parents want their young kids to go to "good" schools. I have two childeren: 7 year old and 10 year old. They went to school (kindergarten) since they were 2,5 year olds. Less than 1 km away from our house there are 4 schools (this is very exceptionally, considering that we don't live in a town or a city). It turns out that all these schools claim their unique selling point is very good education that prepares childeren for university (from the age of 2,5 years, which is ridiculous). My daughter was a slow learner, and she really struggled. In her first real school year with exams (6 year old), the school said that if she had less than 80% she should leave the school. She managed 84%. Now she's doing fine, but i think this is nonsense...the work rate for these childeren is way too high. Our education system has a reputation for being the best in the world, but this is not a good thing for young childeren. My daughter is now 10 years old, she is currently having exams. Every single day she has to study two or three hours...i think this is too much for a 10 year old kid.
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yes many people do get good jobs based on there school reputation alone, but that only applies to certain fields. IT, medical, and other "technical" fields dont really have a hard requirment for this. I know many IT people who went to avg to below avg "reputation" schools, but make a nice living. But here in the US exclusive schools such as ivy league like harvard and the like do give chances and admission and financial aid to poorer students then there typical student... and to me that is a good thing, if the goverment can provide funding that promotes higher education, that is a good thing.
 
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