PES 2012 Discussion Thread .......

[romagnoli]

Not going to dignify retronym with a response. Not worth my time.

 

[RAMAXWY]

something huge like a new licensed league or new possibilities in the edit mode.
info that could really make grown man cry(or atleast be very happy).

 

[Dar]

completely agree, but its already to late for this years issue isn't it.
to make changes to how the game plays i mean.

Not necessarily. See last years MLO Beta gameplay compared to final product. The tackling/fouls changed considerably (and for the worse!).

 

[Gab_]

I thought Rom and Rod was invited home to Adam to play it - not invited by Konami, I might be wrong. Lami asked Konami I think, but I think it was to give a preview of the game, not to be a play tester, like you are if you're hired as one to hunt bugs and such.

I might do a video where I point out the forward run bugs, because I read people say it stopped happening in the Milan game when they changed tactics, but it didn't. I don't have any editing skills so I just do it in windows movie maker, showing how this behavior is not in the trailer and other videos.

 

[Ameppe]

Maybe I missed it, but have we been given a reason as to why some European countries have to wait an extra two weeks for the release?

It just seems a bit strange given that if it was a localisation issue then I would have thought most of the Countries getting it earlier would have been on the later list...

i think it's to stop import
Pes 2012 in Uk is like 45€ while in Italy, France, Spain it's 60€

 

[Srider]

Maybe I missed it, but have we been given a reason as to why some European countries have to wait an extra two weeks for the release?

It just seems a bit strange given that if it was a localisation issue then I would have thought most of the Countries getting it earlier would have been on the later list...

Probably did it this way so they have that 2 weeks window to do a patch based on feedback from the smaller markets. Upsetting the UK market would do the biggest harm to sales.

 

[RAMAXWY]

Not necessarily. See last years MLO Beta gameplay compared to final product. The tackling/fouls changed considerably (and for the worse!).

ok so lets hope all the feedback they are getting changes this game in a positive way before release.
honestly though i am still impressed by what i've seen so far.

 

[Jimmy G-Force]

Jimmy i very rarely disagree with your POV but, its unhealthy to keep putting Seabass on a pedestal, like he is some sort of footballing master. If so, should he not be running the japan national team?

My view is he needs a good kick up the harris, i will not be buying another pes that fails to deliver properly. How many more times do we have to keep letting the bloke off the hook?

Come on Buzzy, Japan National team ? What on earth does that have to do with replicating football in a video game format ?

My point is simple, what the guy has produced to date with his philosophies doesnt lend itself to every player that makes a pass making a forward fucking run ? FFS. Come on, the guy gives us everything he has, redefined how football video game simulations are made, and now we are questioning whether he has instigated a ludicrous feature that bears no resemblence to simulated football ? Really ?

And as for letting the guy off the hook ? I'm sorry mate, but credit where credit is due, the guy produces a game that most of us are still playing 10 months on, every year. His work has no peers. Give him a break. Nothing is perfect, nothing ever will be.

 

[Gab_]

Come on Buzzy, Japan National team ? What on earth does that have to do with replicating football in a video game format ?

My point is simple, what the guy has produced to date with his philosophies doesnt lend itself to every player that makes a pass making a forward fucking run ? FFS. Come on, the guy gives us everything he has, redefined how football video game simulations are made, and now we are questioning whether he has instigated a ludicrous feature that bears no resemblence to simulated football ? Really ?

It's called a bug, that someone of his programmers are responsible for. Nothing more than that. PES 2011 is full of bugs, it's not like he ordered them to be in there.

 

[retronym]

And its not necessary to point out flaws when they aren't there, or when the tester doesn't experience it personally

there is a rule in software engineering: all software has bugs. if the tester isnt experiencing bugs in a half completed game they either aren't looking for them or simply aren't cut out to be testers. i guarantee you if i was a playtester for either fifa or pes i would be able to write a book on the bugs in any one build i was given access to.

i dont buy the story that they wouldn't be invited back, games companies are falling over backwards now to take fan feedback into account because they know it's the best way to stay ahead of the curve, and im not saying they should be slandering the game calling the developers clueless, there is a difference between that and solid constructive criticism. that is why i dont believe in positive reviews, at least not completely positive reviews, because we are so far from perfection in football games that if a review isnt at least 50% criticism then it's evidence of extreme cognitive dissonance on the part of the tester.

 

[Lami]

if i was a playtester there would be NOTHING positive, my report would be a list of things that need to be improved and nothing more.

I think you're confusing bug testers with us as its not really our main job. Bug testers test the hell out of a product for days/weeks etc. It is their job to point out bugs and report.

We on the other hand are reviewers. We've been invited to a playtest to report back to our forums/communities/blogs etc. We barely have a few hours to test the product. Our only intention isn't being their to test for bugs only. That is not even possible at all. You'll need much more time like bug testers have to point out everything. So by the time we play a few games, check out whats new, test a few things out, have a look at the menu/modes/strategies/teams/players etc, time's up! It's not an easy thing to do I tell you. So we do our best to report as much as possible in such a small time-frame.

Read our impressions again and I'm certain you'll find both positives and negatives reported.

you arent viral marketers trying to sell the game you are supposed to be testers, the very best testers are horrible cynical bastards that let nothing slip by them, i know because ive worked with some, so yeh, next time maybe you could concentrate on actually improving the game rather than viral marketing.

If you think Evo-web is a place for viral marketing then you are in the wrong forum.

Anyone?

Sorry Dags I can't remember much myself. I haven't done any subbing whatsoever to compare too because I was testing the starting line-up stamina.

because positive reviews do nothing to help the game, leave that to the magazines that are already bought and paid for, playtesters should be pedantic, nitpicking assholes that go through the game with a tooth comb to find every last flaw. THAT is beneficial to the game because if issues get exposed early on then it encourages the developers to give attention to them, a wall of text filled with nothing but gushing praise and viral marketing hype does nothing, offers nothing, benefits nothing except the egos of people that are invested in one game or the other.

I do understand what you're saying here, but again we aren't bug testers and we don't even have that much time to do so. If I was given the game to bug test the hell out of it then I'll certainly do so. And I'm pretty sure Rod and Rom would do so too. But you're exaggerating a lot and confusing things here. If you're supposed to report back your impressions to your community then you talk about everything you've experienced, both positive and negative.

Also, you are assuming that we do not report the bugs we've experienced in such a small time-frame back to Konami. How do you know? Do you know what I've told Guy for example? Did you read that I've spoken to him regarding having a feedback thread here to report back all the bugs and areas that need improvement?

Why the exaggeration and wrong assumptions? Chill mate. Once the demo is out, you can bug test the shit out of it, then head to the feedback thread and report everything.

 

[RAMAXWY]

Come on Buzzy, Japan National team ? What on earth does that have to do with replicating football in a video game format ?

My point is simple, what the guy has produced to date with his philosophies doesnt lend itself to every player that makes a pass making a forward fucking run ? FFS. Come on, the guy gives us everything he has, redefined how football video game simulations are made, and now we are questioning whether he has instigated a ludicrous feature that bears no resemblence to simulated football ? Really ?

And as for letting the guy off the hook ? I'm sorry mate, but credit where credit is due, the guy produces a game that most of us are still playing 10 months on, every year. His work has no peers. Give him a break. Nothing is perfect, nothing ever will be.

agree especially when you think of the fact that even when PES doesn't have a good year, still nothing comes close to even giving you the feeling of playing real football like it does.
we all want to make it better and i agree but we all also have different opinions on how to make the changes.
still he manages to satisfy most of us every year and that really says something.
the man is simply brilliant.

 

[Jimmy G-Force]

agree especially when you think of the fact that even when PES doesn't have a good year, still nothing comes close to even giving you the feeling of playing real football like it does.
we all want to make it better and i agree but we all also have different opinions on how to make the changes.
still he manages to satisfy most of us every year and that really says something.
the man is simply brilliant.

Exactly, or to be precise, he is in my opinion.

This guy has captured football like no other person, he has done this consistently for as long as I can remember. Without his work, seriously, what would we have had ? Fifa ?.

For as long as I can remember he has produced work that has evoked emotions that I've only ever felt playing the game in real-life. We have our bugs, flaws, we get them every year, and we will continue to get them. That is PES, nothing has changed in that regard from Day 1. We live with them because we value everything else he does so well. Or at least I do, and and as far as I'm concerned, that's all the matters to me. If people want to beat themselves up and not enjoy the beauty that PES can produce, then more fool them in my opinion.

 

[vivek1412]

Good News


"Dunno what the fuss about this "always running" thing is. Definitely not in final code and no-one apart from a select "seen" in GC code." via twitter Asim...

 

[Andy]

Come on Buzzy, Japan National team ? What on earth does that have to do with replicating football in a video game format ?

My point is simple, what the guy has produced to date with his philosophies doesnt lend itself to every player that makes a pass making a forward fucking run ? FFS. Come on, the guy gives us everything he has, redefined how football video game simulations are made, and now we are questioning whether he has instigated a ludicrous feature that bears no resemblence to simulated football ? Really ?

And as for letting the guy off the hook ? I'm sorry mate, but credit where credit is due, the guy produces a game that most of us are still playing 10 months on, every year. His work has no peers. Give him a break. Nothing is perfect, nothing ever will be.

Jimmy my point is if people keep telling the man how great he is then he thinks he can do no wrong.

Take pes on the wii for example, there is a different top man for this game and from what i have read since pes 2010 this game is solid.

So where is seabass going wrong? I mean do you think it acceptable that for the past 2 years we have had to relie on patches to fix things. If, like we are led to believe konami have been working on this for more than a year (maybe 2) then why havent they nailed it. I hope that i am wrong but i cant help the feeling that we have been here before. Seabass like Rutter is definatley over rated. As you say he may understand how a football game should play but putting it into the game seems to in certain areas come up short.

 

[RAMAXWY]

Exactly, or to be precise, he is in my opinion.

This guy has captured football like no other person, he has done this consistently for as long as I can remember. Without his work, seriously, what would we have had ? Fifa ?.

For as long as I can remember he has produced work that has evoked emotions that I've only ever felt playing the game in real-life. We have our bugs, flaws, we get them every year, and we will continue to get them. That is PES, nothing has changed in that regard from Day 1. We live with them because we value everything else he does so well. Or at least I do, and and as far as I'm concerned, that's all the matters to me. If people want to beat themselves up and not enjoy the beauty that PES can produce, then more fool them in my opinion.

pointing out mistakes in this game isn't so hard but to be able to appreciate all the good things it does seems to be the problem for most gamers have nowadays.
strangely though FIFA still has a market and i just don't get that.

 

[ollywolly]

Ok, vidoes can't tell the whole story but I refuse to believe that every single player at gamescom willingly initiates a pass and run with every single pass they make. And besides we have evidence of the CPU doing it too. It's strange that some people can defend this. It's not about people being negative, it's about pointing out bugs now in the hope that Konami catch wind and fix it by final release so that we all get the great game we all hope for.

Come on, the guy gives us everything he has, redefined how football video game simulations are made, and now we are questioning whether he has instigated a ludicrous feature that bears no resemblence to simulated football ? Really ?

So Seabass would never allow ludicrous features in his game like a stupid 3 second stumble animation which you can't recover from or allowing you to jog up the wing and put a cross in uncontested or making players oblivious to through balls which pass within a foot of them or animal heads?

 

[Andy]

pointing out mistakes in this game isn't so hard but to be able to appreciate all the good things it does seems to be the problem for most gamers have nowadays.
strangely though FIFA still has a market and i just don't get that.

Poppycock, I have been playing pes for years and enjoying the brilliance of it, but why does something always appear broken. I have been waiting years for all the good points to come to fruition in one solid game. but i am running out of patience.

 

[pepper63]

Not going to dignify retronym with a response. Not worth my time.

You just did Rom. The rushing forward issue is not to do with tactics is it? I mean player support that kind of thing?

 

[casperld]

Here we go again. The beta, preview code and demo LAST year were all better than the final game, you know why? because people bitched and moaned about stuff that should have stayed the way it was. Konami are going to start listening to this crap and start chopping again, mark my words.

 

[Jimmy G-Force]

Jimmy my point is if people keep telling the man how great he is then he thinks he can do no wrong.

Take pes on the wii for example, there is a different top man for this game and from what i have read since pes 2010 this game is solid.

So where is seabass going wrong? I mean do you think it acceptable that for the past 2 years we have had to relie on patches to fix things. If, like we are led to believe konami have been working on this for more than a year (maybe 2) then why havent they nailed it. I hope that i am wrong but i cant help the feeling that we have been here before. Seabass like Rutter is definatley over rated. As you say he may understand how a football game should play but putting it into the game seems to in certain areas come up short.

Who is telling him how great he is ? I've never spoke to him, and as far as I'm aware, the world media have him falling well short of EA Sports in this regard. If anything, he doesnt get the credit he deserves. I remember him removing himself completely from PES 2008 basically claiming it was poor and shouldnt be released. And that was the only real black-spot on his career to date.

So Seabass would never allow ludicrous features in his game like a stupid 3 second stumble animation which you can't recover from or allowing you to jog up the wing and put a cross in uncontested or making players oblivious to through balls which pass within a foot of them or animal heads?

Again, nothing is perfect. As for the Animal Heads, if you cannot see the blatant 'tongue-in-cheek' piss-take in that then you need your head testing. A pure simulation with Animal Heads ? It's a joke, a bit of fun, good crack. Nothing more, nothing less.

I'm done with this by the way, it's ridiculous and I dont have the time or energy.

 

[Rodelero]

there is a rule in software engineering: all software has bugs. if the tester isnt experiencing bugs in a half completed game they either aren't looking for them or simply aren't cut out to be testers. i guarantee you if i was a playtester for either fifa or pes i would be able to write a book on the bugs in any one build i was given access to.

You've lost your mind. We were not there in a QA capacity. We were not there to bugtest. We were there to play the game, to experience it as deeply as possible, and to give our impressions. That was my aim, I stand by that aim, and I stand by the impressions I wrote.

I was not, in any way, there to list bugs. Nor, incidentally, would you be able to write a 'book' in a few hours of play and a few hours of watching someone else play. Stop being quite so insolent, and at the very least wait for the bloody demo before making such outlandishly stupid claims.

 

[RAMAXWY]

Poppycock, I have been playing pes for years and enjoying the brilliance of it, but why does something always appear broken. I have been waiting years for all the good points to come to fruition in one solid game. but i am running out of patience.

come on man keep it civil.
i know you appreciate the game or else you wouldn't be here.
but there is also a big difference in expectations and reality.
if the reality is that its not what u expected then that's fine because you just want it to be better and just the way you want it.
but going on about the flaws as if it would be unplayable is taking it a bit too far wouldn't you say.
that would mean you won't be playing any football game for a whole year because seeing you are used to the high standard PES has delivered since we've known it then anything else is just worse.

 

[retronym]

I think you're confusing bug testers with us as its not really our main job. Bug testers test the hell out of a product for days/weeks etc. It is their job to point out bugs and report.

We on the other hand are reviewers. We've been invited to a playtest to report back to our forums/communities/blogs etc. We barely have a few hours to test the product. Our only intention isn't being their to test for bugs only. That is not even possible at all. You'll need much more time like bug testers have to point out everything. So by the time we play a few games, check out whats new, test a few things out, have a look at the menu/modes/strategies/teams/players etc, time's up! It's not an easy thing to do I tell you. So we do our best to report as much as possible in such a small time-frame.

I appreciate the fact you are limited in time, but I've always viewed playtesters as community testers, your job is to draw attention to aspects of the game that in your estimation would be highest priority for the fanbase. the difference is that software testers don't have any emotional investment in the product, or at least they shouldn't, because to them a small bug is just as important as a major gameplay issue, but most importantly, they may not even notice gameplay issues that don't classify as bugs per se (such as the rubber band issue), this is something that only someone with gaming experience or an eye for realism could pick up on.

you can imagine developers have a huge list of bugs reported to them by the actual software testers, someone will be prioritising which of those bugs gets the most attention; your job, in my view, is to put pressure via the community on the people making those decisions to prioritise fixes in the areas of the game that have the most impact on gameplay and realism, thus benefitting the quality of the final product to the greatest degree possible. glowing positive reviews will simply never accomplish that, it has no impact on the development process other than suppressing genuine concerns the community might have, because why complain if our testers have said everything is perfect, right? you can see it even in this thread, just wait until the demo and trust the testers, but by that time it is too late in the day to make any meaningful changes.

 

[Ivan Yakov]

I just dont believe for one second that is the case Gab, there is no valid reason why this would happen as standard. This is Seabass we are talking about here, he's not daft. And quite frankly, even the thought of it is ridiculous.

So PES2008 was NOT a Seabass production then? Jimmy everyone knows you're a Konami apologist under ALL circumstances but please we can see the issue with our own eyes and someone there confirmed it happens with the CPU AI as well.

But the community should have NO CONCERNS because you say so? How arrogant is that?

 

[mr_man]

While some might have to plead insanity given that the demo is just around the corner, you can't blame anyone for remaining cynical. A.I (and shooting, but that's another story) was a tragedy in PES 11, and I'm pretty sure those 2 didn't get ample attention pre-release?

 

[pepper63]

So PES2008 was NOT a Seabass production then? Jimmy everyone knows you're a Konami apologist under ALL circumstances but please we can see the issue with our own eyes and someone there confirmed it happens with the CPU AI as well.

But the community should have NO CONCERNS because you say so? How arrogant is that?

And in the blue corner weighing in at......

 

[Thespeedster84]

Here we go again. The beta, preview code and demo LAST year were all better than the final game, you know why? because people bitched and moaned about stuff that should have stayed the way it was. Konami are going to start listening to this crap and start chopping again, mark my words.

a defender/midfielder not being under-pressured runs forward (just to get back again) most of the time as well as cpu ai play too aggressive to go forward without too much make nice passing play in midfield are not something need attention ? Is it included in active AI ?

It is completely different case with what happen with fouling system in PES 2011 demo/final last year. and thx to people mention Jog Bug from Demo last year.

 

[Ivan Yakov]

Look everyone knows that if playtesters really slated the game they got to play before release they would NEVER be invited back. No offense guys, but I take all these impressions with a massive pinch of salt - and I don't think anyone should be offended at that attitude.

 

[Andy]

come on man keep it civil.
i know you appreciate the game or else you wouldn't be here.
but there is also a big difference in expectations and reality.
if the reality is that its not what u expected then that's fine because you just want it to be better and just the way you want it.
but going on about the flaws as if it would be unplayable is taking it a bit too far wouldn't you say.
that would mean you won't be playing any football game for a whole year because seeing you are used to the high standard PES has delivered since we've known it then anything else is just worse.

where was i not civil?

i never said it was or as been unplayable, but it is high time we got something totally fixed like pes 5/6