Low-High Graphic Detail Physics Engine Differences (Video)

R2.ZephyR

R2.ZephyR

Team.R2 Member
12 December 2006
Istanbul&Ankara
Arsenal
Last month we have found out that the physics engine of Low and High Graphic details are totally different.This issue might have been revealed in this forum but it's worth to mention it again.
Here comes the story...

As all of you know PES2008 is a next-gen game having really high requirements forcing many people to play in medium or low graphic mode.I also had to play PES2008 in low graphic details for nearly two weeks with my AMD Barton 3200 + Radeon 9550 configuration.I really had high expectations about the game as all of you had.When I played the game for the first time I was truely shocked by bugs happening all time during the game ruining all the joy and excitement.

Here are some bugs I discovered in Low Graphics Mode:

1)Useless keepers,taking every ball in without exception.
2)While dribbling players used to lose ball suddenly without being charged or tackled
3)Camera couldn't catch fast shots.
4)By just fulling power bar with pressing R2+ one can score from middle of the pitch

And here is a confidential video which we only shared with our clan members one month ago showing various bugs in low mode.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhtDRF_UNk8

So I was wandering around with lots of thoughts in my head and my all hatred in my heart to KONAMI crew until the weekend when we meet with our clan members to do some training for up coming tournaments.We had a pretty good computer there with C2Duo + 8600GT allowing us to play in High graphic details.During our talks before getting in action,my friends told me that the game is not so bad though as I think,and I was really suprised by that.

As soon an I gripped the gamepad I realized that the game I was playing for that moment was totally different from the game I was playing at home in any aspects.There was no keeper or dribbling or camera bugs at all.I also tried my uniqe exploitable bugs and the listed bugs above for scoring,but non of them worked actually.Then we realized that the physics engine for Low and High graphics are totally different.

Now an important question arises...
How would be the rules or pyhsics of the game governed if two player meet in online one playing in Low mode,the other one in High mode?

We directly go online and made some experiments by first playing one player(me) in Low mode against a player(one of our clan members)High mode.Not suprisingly our match was ruined by all the bugs we listed above,meaning that Low graphic mode physics dominate in such a case.After that we tried High against High and everthing looked perfect. No ridiculous goalkeepers,no dribbling bugs and great ball physics.

This result was also enlightening for us.
Cause my friend,who played the game always in High mode since he bought it,couldn't give meaning to why sometimes bugs occur why sometimes don't occur in online games.Why camera cannot catch the ball in online games although it's apparent that something like that never occur in offline mode.

We today really wonder whether KONAMI has any idea about what we are talking about here.They claim in their websites that they're working on finding solutions to online problems but where is the point in "working on solutions" without knowing the problem.(if this is the case of course)

One last thing,I hope u don't care about my bad English,just get the idea. ^^

With kind regards,
Team.R2
 
in that video the gk sucks so bad, what difficulty it is? I play top player but i never conceded that stupid long range goal... ;)
 
Some of those bugs online really make sense now!!!!! I've been playing on medium the whole time but if i faced someone on low....Does KONAMI even know about this???!!
 
if you are running the game in LOW settings, what the hell do you expect?, buggy or not its a very complex physics engine, probably when you run it on Low, it doesnt make all the required calculations than it does when its executed in High or Medium.
 
cesarpo said:
if you are running the game in LOW settings, what the hell do you expect?, buggy or not its a very complex physics engine, probably when you run it on Low, it doesnt make all the required calculations than it does when its executed in High or Medium.
Click to expand...

Hehe nice point of view.

But have you ever seen a game that works in a different manner in different graphic details? I mean,when you play NFS Undergrund in low details only the graphics are crap,not the game pyhsics.;)
 
R2.ZephyR said:
Hehe nice point of view.

But have you ever seen a game that works in a different manner in different graphic details? I mean,when you play NFS Undergrund in low details only the graphics are crap,not the game pyhsics.;)
Click to expand...
Hi R2.ZephyR, you are definitely right on this. I have heard from another forum that playing at Low setting is different from the Medium setting or High setting. I have been playing at the low setting fortunately without any bugs at all but I was really surprised that the CPU AI is really bad even at the World Class Level. If you attack from the sides, the CPU can hardly keep up with your wingers. So very often it is between you and the keeper with CPU defenders running aimlessly. I do not believe that this game is inferior to PES6 as Konami has been churning out better gameplay with each release. I'm in the midst of buying a High end graphic card just to play this game. I would not mind cos at the end of the day, it is all worth it. PES/WE is after all the best footie game on the planet. I have one suggetion to KOnami though, irrespective whether low or high resolution, the game should run the same. Recently someone has tried using an updated driver and the game again performed differently. Oh my god, what is happening here?
 
the difference between high and low details in pes 2008 is the framerate
high=60fps low=30 fps

and this difference is the cause of the bugs


the only way is play in training stadium but no one unltil now works to fix a normal stadium into training stadium

we have to find an editer who works for that
and all we can play this fuc-king game at 60fps without bugs teleports and other bad stuff
 
dooter said:
the difference between high and low details in pes 2008 is the framerate
high=60fps low=30 fps

and this difference is the cause of the bugs


the only way is play in training stadium but no one unltil now works to fix a normal stadium into training stadium

we have to find an editer who works for that
and all we can play this fuc-king game at 60fps without bugs teleports and other bad stuff
Click to expand...

HiDooter,
So you are saying the real PES2008 can be played only on the training ground(for low resolution users). I hope it is true cos I have yet to experience the true PES2008 experience. I just can't wait to try it out tonight.
 
dooter said:
the difference between high and low details in pes 2008 is the framerate
high=60fps low=30 fps

and this difference is the cause of the bugs


the only way is play in training stadium but no one unltil now works to fix a normal stadium into training stadium

we have to find an editer who works for that
and all we can play this fuc-king game at 60fps without bugs teleports and other bad stuff
Click to expand...

Hmm the idea sounds great,but I'm not sure this can be done by an editer.
 
TerrierJim said:
The best AGP card around is the X1950, which you can get for £50.
Click to expand...

cheers mate what setting will i be able to play it in then on my motherboard i can only have a graphics card that has three slots on the graphics card does this make any sense ??
 
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I dont want to say this is bullshit but it is

If you play topplayer the keepers are way better.
You are shoting with a player who's got all space/time to take a shot + you are shooting with Seedorf who has a prity hard shot, its 'normal' he would score.

the camara isn't that good yes, but maybe it just doesn't want to show the emty seats :D
 
Matres said:
I dont want to say this is bullshit but it is

If you play topplayer the keepers are way better.
You are shoting with a player who's got all space/time to take a shot + you are shooting with Seedorf who has a prity hard shot, its 'normal' he would score.

the camara isn't that good yes, but maybe it just doesn't want to show the emty seats :D
Click to expand...

Pff what are you talking about?
All the scenes are taken from top player level,by the way I haven't played something different than top player for 10 years ;)
 
I've been moaning about the way Konami programm PES for years and it seems they've come to the point of failure.

They've been using the same programming methods since the days of ISS on the playstation back in 1998.

Every game has an internal clock it runs on. On older consoles which would run only on TV sets the programmers would use the v-sync timer for the game's clock (this is an event that fires up every time the monitor is ready to start drawing a new frame). TV sets have a fixed refresh rate (60 for pal and 50 for ntsc) , so this method worked and became a standard practice for console programming. That's also why NTSC versions of ISS would run faster on modded PAL consoles (for those who remember).

The way this method works is the game does all calculations about where the ball would go, the AI, receives player commands etc etc on every v-sync event (60 times a second for PAL). If the next v-sync event comes before the previous is finished the frame is skipped (frame-skipping, momentary pause effect, wrongly described as lag by some people). So the game is optimised to run on 60 "caclulations" per second (or 50 for ntsc). For example the AI calculates the gks every 1/60 seconds.

Enter PCs. Different specs and possibly different refresh rates on monitors. So opitmisation and v-synced clock go out the window. So what do we do. We set a clock on v-sync of 60Hz and enable frame-skipping (that was the case from PES3-PES6). For those that played on CRT monitors with v-sync and a refresh rate of higher than 60Hz it had a LOT of frame-skipping. The game only played smoothly on 60Hz.

All was so and so until "next-gen" PES2008 came, all unoptimised and cumbersome. Konami knew older PCs wouldn't handle is so in a desperate attempt to lower the minimum specs they introduce the "low" 30 fps mode.

Major catastrophy. First off on multiplayer two potential players (one on high and one on low) would run on a differently clocked engine, so when the 30 fps player was hosting the other player would go double speed and vice versa ("fixed" later by a rediculous patch that would lock both on 30 fps).

The second problem is what you describe on this thread. Like I said the GK AI is optimised for 60fps. When the engine goes to 30 fps the next frame may take the ball twice as far as on the 60fps, giving the AI no time to react proeperly. This is also apparent on players losing control of the ball.

Modern games seperate game engine and graphics engine. The game engine (physics, AI, player input etc) use a real-time clock to fix the game's speed. The graphics engine instructs the graphics processor to create a frame as fast as possible as well and the frame is displayed as soon as it's ready. So in essence the game's "world" runs independently of the graphics displayed on screen. So the physics could run on 500 ticks per second and the game at how many fps the gfx card can produce.

After this years feck-up I assume Konami would pull their heads out their arses and modernise their programming methods. This also applies to their data handling and the need to abandon fixed slots and go for a proper dynamic database so that the community can expand the game instead of replacing fixed content. However I find it more possible for them to abandon the PC platform than going through the trouble of reinvening the wheel.
 
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nikos said:
I've been moaning about the way Konami programm PES for years and it seems they've come to the point of failure.

They've been using the same programming methods since the days of ISS on the playstation back in 1998.

Every game has an internal clock it runs on. On older consoles which would run only on TV sets the programmers would use the v-sync timer for the game's clock (this is an event that fires up every time the monitor is ready to start drawing a new frame). TV sets have a fixed refresh rate (60 for pal and 50 for ntsc) , so this method worked and became a standard practice for console programming. That's also why NTSC versions of ISS would run faster on modded PAL consoles (for those who remember).

The way this method works is the game does all calculations about where the ball would go, the AI, receives player commands etc etc on every v-sync event (60 times a second for PAL). If the next v-sync event comes before the previous is finished the frame is skipped (frame-skipping, momentary pause effect, wrongly described as lag by some people). So the game is optimised to run on 60 "caclulations" per second (or 50 for ntsc). For example the AI calculates the gks every 1/60 seconds.

Enter PCs. Different specs and possibly different refresh rates on monitors. So opitmisation and v-synced clock go out the window. So what do we do. We set a clock on v-sync of 60Hz and enable frame-skipping (that was the case from PES3-PES6). For those that played on CRT monitors with v-sync and a refresh rate of higher than 60Hz it had a LOT of frame-skipping. The game only played smoothly on 60Hz.

All was so and so until "next-gen" PES2008 came, all unoptimised and cumbersome. Konami knew older PCs wouldn't handle is so in a desperate attempt to lower the minimum specs they introduce the "low" 30 fps mode.

Major catastrophy. First off on multiplayer two potential players (one on high and one on low) would run on a differently clocked engine, so when the 30 fps player was hosting the other player would go double speed and vice versa ("fixed" later by a rediculous patch that would lock both on 30 fps).

The second problem is what you describe on this thread. Like I said the GK AI is optimised for 60fps. When the engine goes to 30 fps the next frame may take the ball twice as far as on the 60fps, giving the AI no time to react proeperly. This is also apparent on players losing control of the ball.

Modern games seperate game engine and graphics engine. The game engine (physics, AI, player input etc) use a real-time clock to fix the game's speed. The graphics engine instructs the graphics processor to create a frame as fast as possible as well and the frame is displayed as soon as it's ready. So in essence the game's "world" runs independently of the graphics displayed on screen. So the physics could run on 500 ticks per second and the game at how many fps the gfx card can produce.

After this years feck-up I assume Konami would pull their heads out their arses and modernise their programming methods. This also applies to their data handling and the need to abandon fixed slots and go for a proper dynamic database so that the community can expand the game instead of replacing fixed content. However I find it more possible for them to abandon the PC platform than going through the trouble of reinvening the wheel.
Click to expand...


Yeah, this is a good post.

Same with for example Forza 2 I believe. They had the Physics calculations running on a very high rate, to make sure that all bumps in the road etc were actually taken into account when processing. To low Framerate for the physics would mean that at high speeds, the car could travel several meters between each physics update. Meaning you might run over a spike strip (theoretically) and not be hit by it because the car would have completely passed before the physics engine sampled again.

So what KONAMI are doing sucks. Meybe they should shell some money out and get some experts in the area or such if they can't do it themselves, I dunno. I just know they need to do something.
 
nikos said:
I've been moaning about the way Konami programm PES for years and it seems they've come to the point of failure.

They've been using the same programming methods since the days of ISS on the playstation back in 1998.

Every game has an internal clock it runs on. On older consoles which would run only on TV sets the programmers would use the v-sync timer for the game's clock (this is an event that fires up every time the monitor is ready to start drawing a new frame). TV sets have a fixed refresh rate (60 for pal and 50 for ntsc) , so this method worked and became a standard practice for console programming. That's also why NTSC versions of ISS would run faster on modded PAL consoles (for those who remember).

The way this method works is the game does all calculations about where the ball would go, the AI, receives player commands etc etc on every v-sync event (60 times a second for PAL). If the next v-sync event comes before the previous is finished the frame is skipped (frame-skipping, momentary pause effect, wrongly described as lag by some people). So the game is optimised to run on 60 "caclulations" per second (or 50 for ntsc). For example the AI calculates the gks every 1/60 seconds.

Enter PCs. Different specs and possibly different refresh rates on monitors. So opitmisation and v-synced clock go out the window. So what do we do. We set a clock on v-sync of 60Hz and enable frame-skipping (that was the case from PES3-PES6). For those that played on CRT monitors with v-sync and a refresh rate of higher than 60Hz it had a LOT of frame-skipping. The game only played smoothly on 60Hz.

All was so and so until "next-gen" PES2008 came, all unoptimised and cumbersome. Konami knew older PCs wouldn't handle is so in a desperate attempt to lower the minimum specs they introduce the "low" 30 fps mode.

Major catastrophy. First off on multiplayer two potential players (one on high and one on low) would run on a differently clocked engine, so when the 30 fps player was hosting the other player would go double speed and vice versa ("fixed" later by a rediculous patch that would lock both on 30 fps).

The second problem is what you describe on this thread. Like I said the GK AI is optimised for 60fps. When the engine goes to 30 fps the next frame may take the ball twice as far as on the 60fps, giving the AI no time to react proeperly. This is also apparent on players losing control of the ball.

Modern games seperate game engine and graphics engine. The game engine (physics, AI, player input etc) use a real-time clock to fix the game's speed. The graphics engine instructs the graphics processor to create a frame as fast as possible as well and the frame is displayed as soon as it's ready. So in essence the game's "world" runs independently of the graphics displayed on screen. So the physics could run on 500 ticks per second and the game at how many fps the gfx card can produce.

After this years feck-up I assume Konami would pull their heads out their arses and modernise their programming methods. This also applies to their data handling and the need to abandon fixed slots and go for a proper dynamic database so that the community can expand the game instead of replacing fixed content. However I find it more possible for them to abandon the PC platform than going through the trouble of reinvening the wheel.
Click to expand...

Great post m8.;)
 
nikos said:
I've been moaning about the way Konami programm PES for years and it seems they've come to the point of failure.

They've been using the same programming methods since the days of ISS on the playstation back in 1998.

Every game has an internal clock it runs on. On older consoles which would run only on TV sets the programmers would use the v-sync timer for the game's clock (this is an event that fires up every time the monitor is ready to start drawing a new frame). TV sets have a fixed refresh rate (60 for pal and 50 for ntsc) , so this method worked and became a standard practice for console programming. That's also why NTSC versions of ISS would run faster on modded PAL consoles (for those who remember).

The way this method works is the game does all calculations about where the ball would go, the AI, receives player commands etc etc on every v-sync event (60 times a second for PAL). If the next v-sync event comes before the previous is finished the frame is skipped (frame-skipping, momentary pause effect, wrongly described as lag by some people). So the game is optimised to run on 60 "caclulations" per second (or 50 for ntsc). For example the AI calculates the gks every 1/60 seconds.

Enter PCs. Different specs and possibly different refresh rates on monitors. So opitmisation and v-synced clock go out the window. So what do we do. We set a clock on v-sync of 60Hz and enable frame-skipping (that was the case from PES3-PES6). For those that played on CRT monitors with v-sync and a refresh rate of higher than 60Hz it had a LOT of frame-skipping. The game only played smoothly on 60Hz.

All was so and so until "next-gen" PES2008 came, all unoptimised and cumbersome. Konami knew older PCs wouldn't handle is so in a desperate attempt to lower the minimum specs they introduce the "low" 30 fps mode.

Major catastrophy. First off on multiplayer two potential players (one on high and one on low) would run on a differently clocked engine, so when the 30 fps player was hosting the other player would go double speed and vice versa ("fixed" later by a rediculous patch that would lock both on 30 fps).

The second problem is what you describe on this thread. Like I said the GK AI is optimised for 60fps. When the engine goes to 30 fps the next frame may take the ball twice as far as on the 60fps, giving the AI no time to react proeperly. This is also apparent on players losing control of the ball.

Modern games seperate game engine and graphics engine. The game engine (physics, AI, player input etc) use a real-time clock to fix the game's speed. The graphics engine instructs the graphics processor to create a frame as fast as possible as well and the frame is displayed as soon as it's ready. So in essence the game's "world" runs independently of the graphics displayed on screen. So the physics could run on 500 ticks per second and the game at how many fps the gfx card can produce.

After this years feck-up I assume Konami would pull their heads out their arses and modernise their programming methods. This also applies to their data handling and the need to abandon fixed slots and go for a proper dynamic database so that the community can expand the game instead of replacing fixed content. However I find it more possible for them to abandon the PC platform than going through the trouble of reinvening the wheel.
Click to expand...

you are right in almost everything, they'll never abandon the Pc platform, beacause the game is developed in PC, the problem is that they develop in Pc but thinking in consoles, and thats why the game always has a port smell xD
 
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