Konami is sinking

Discussion in 'Winning Eleven' started by drekkard, 13 August 2006.

  1. drekkard

    drekkard International

    23 March 2005
    Barça, Arsenal, Ajax
    I know a lot of fanboys will disagree, but for me this series is totally stalled since PES3. In the last series, the only thing I've seen is more cheats, more stupid options and more animations. But GAMEPLAY wise? Absolute ZERO. AI? ZERO. Or maybe worst! I think Konami is so obsessed with balancing gameplay that they started adding stupid cheats everywhere. The worst of all is when they began to scramble with the control of your players, your shots and all.

    All in all, you play master league and you can see perfectly when the CPU is putting all the cheats to work just to balance the result! That's plain stupid. To me, konami is wasting a lot of time doing this that could be well put to make this game better. For instance, tactically speaking there hasn't been a significant change in 3 years.

    But the worst, I say it again, is that CPU interferes with your control and your choices! That's as stupid as if in Call of Duty the CPU changed your aiming saying excuses such as "You should be nervous right now". Seabass has spent 2 years talking everyone how he was figuring to simulate errors in the game. This is the wrong direction. The CPU shouldn't be able to simulate morale of players. NEVER. That's why players have brains, I think. If I have steel nerves, I will overcome the situation. If I'm nervous, I will sink. But, please, don't let the stupid CPU decide. When you play master league, the very moment you score and take the lead your players will be slower, unable to head the ball, they will fall in body checks no matter what you do, they will let gaps in defence, don't run as much in offense... That's plain pathetic.

    Look, years ago I could play endless seasons in ML. Now, I tend to shut off the console at the secondth or third game, watching all that stupidity there, with the CPU team putting 8 defenders inside the box in 5 seconds or your 4 defenders ALWAYS being 6 meters away of the only opponent striker. Well, that is irritating. Not because of the result, but because of the damage it does to the gameplay.

    I can't understan how they have the best football game and totally destroy the fun of it by putting all this mess (in 10 matches, my goalkeeper was unable to block ANY incoming ball / I dd trace deflections, and ended up seeing that 90% of deflections in-game where straight to the feet of an opponent / and so on...)

    So at the end I see how they have let this engine totally rot. They have scripted too much just everything. All in order to balance things, such as you can see in those statistics at the end of the match, where you shot 20 times (3 posts, 8 easy goals missed only "by inches") and CPU scored it's only 2 shots.

    To me, konami should be BETTER working in something different, a new engine or so, with real AI (there's no real AI in the game. If you look closely, most of the times the CPU simply put your defenders away of the ball or the strikers, in order to let them do things / there's no AI at all involving dribling by the cpu, they simply read your movements and act knowing what your defender is going to do, you can see that perfectly when you slide and AT THE SAME TIME the opponent starts the dribbling)

    One thing that makes me laguh is when they talk about limits of PS2. That's pathetic. Better AI will simply require the same amount of CPU processing that all those balancing cheats do right now. I'm a programmer myself and I can clearly see the strings of the scripts when playing, and watching as how Konami is devoted to put 5 or 6 different versions of the game simply to milk it out and make more money, I know they have turned lazy bastards and they are the same as EA right now, only they had a better engine 4 years ago and they take profit of it.

    But please, don't have any hope on PES6, it will be the SAME game with some tweaks that took at maximum 1 month to program (jesuschrist! I could program and test a proper Master League schedule in less than a week! what are they waiting for????). At least, Im glad I didn't spend money in my copt of we10.
  2. edin80

    edin80 Conference

    13 June 2005
    It doesn't matter how "intelligent" AI it is or will be after a while you will always be able to beat CPU simply because it has to be "scripted" in some way (it is not a human brain)I agree with you that there is a lot of cheating in the game but despite all that I am still able to beat CPU with 4 or 5:0 and win triple in ML.Just when I played against my friends (who never play against CPU only against each others) I realised that I wasn't good playar at all and I had to change my tactits totally.IMO the AI of the game is never going to be so good that we will have to struggle one year to crack it.By the way I would recommend you WE9 LE because there is much less CPU cheating than in PES 5.I hope you won't take it wrong as I don't have any intentions to play smart here.Excuse me for my english I know it is not the best in the world :)
  3. Striker39

    Striker39 Guest

    I agree almost with everthing that you say. I think that PES1 was a lot more fun to me to play the Master League that the latest PES, because that crapy thing with CPU.Since PES3 the CPU had became to automatic.

    But by my Winning Eleven 10 experience I think the FUN is back like the old times in PES1 :)
  4. Nick Cave

    Nick Cave Wrexham fan for my sins...

    10 July 2004
    Non football league waste land...
    Wrexham AFC
    Agree with you on just about every point, you have to remember Konami are out for one thing here and that's Dollars and lots of them. If Joe public will buy the same tweaked crap year in year out, and the figures don't lie... Then they will ship it, forget all the bulls$$t their marketing department spout or the parp Pondtrout comes out with. They are not interested in making the best Sim possible, it's what they can make as cheap, quick and shallow as they can sell. God forbid anybody should find enough in the game to play the thing for more than six or seven months, what if they decided they would wait till next year to buy the next one!! :|
    Though by your last comment I presume you don't have WE10 eh!! ;) :-\"
  5. ClassicD

    ClassicD Galáctico

    11 November 2001
    Completely agree with your post drekkard, except concerning WE10. It's far less-scripted, at times maybe a little too freeform. I don't hold out too much hope for PES6, other than they don't make a mess of the 360 version and just port it over (the analogue stick needs to be made full use of, Microsoft's d-pads are brutal).
  6. Terryb47

    Terryb47 Conference

    4 August 2004
    You guys talk like Konami is becoming EA. let's not go there, because they are not. Surely the gameplay changes each year, and with every new instalment you need to relearn the game.

    WE10 however is frustrating because the keepers are shite. But I would never replace my PES5 with 4, or 3 for that matter. Personally I liked WE8FE the best.
  7. Nick Cave

    Nick Cave Wrexham fan for my sins...

    10 July 2004
    Non football league waste land...
    Wrexham AFC

    Yep they are... the bigger they get the more the money talks my friend!!
    No big changes just tweaks, some good some bad, no real growth or advances!!
  8. TikTikTikTikTik

    TikTikTikTikTik *****

    7 August 2004
    For all fifa's faults they atleast try to create a game that has some depth with the career mode and number of teams. Nokami on the other hand have been reliant on their superior gameplay and has negleted to adress the other important elements of the game, teams and play options. The ML is crap and has been for awhile now, you cant even recreate a CL because the home/away option has been disabled and the number of teams is poor, with teams being replaced instead of added each version.

    As for gameplay, try going back from we10 to pes5. Its not worth it. They do improve this every year, however is it worth the 55euro price?! Probably not.
  9. Stan

    Stan Allez les Lionceaux !!!

    12 September 2002
    I think you people have played the game far too much...you are simply too good at it.
    Don't forget that big companies like Konami does not make games for the 0,1% of freaks that you can find on forums like this, and of that 0,1% of freaks you guys are the elite (and i use this word with quite a lot irony). In his first post drekkard talks about fanboys, well i have to disappoint him...everybody who comes on this forum is (a maybe very critical) fanboy by definition. One can tell that by the way the almost everybody talks about EA and the FIFA series.
    If you agree that almost everybody on this forum is a fanboy (i know it's difficult to acknowledge that, but face it). Then you will certainly understand why Konami will not make games to please us, being a litle minority...Their target are the "middle of the road" football fans who are not necessary hardcore gamers like you (again with much irony). If people like us would be their target, there would not be a PES/WE game anymore because konami would have ended bankrupt. Obviously konami has had a long stategy with this game, but now it's time to cash in and the game has to appeal a litle more to middle of the road gamers (and konami are not very consequent in that strategy because otherwise they would put morebias on licences, boots and other bullshit).

    I am not blind for the weak points (as a very avid ML player, i recongnise the fact that it has dozens of flaws) but i still enjoy the game. It still is a challenge for me, so i must be a very crap player and i'm glad i am because the reason why most of you don't like it is because you are too good at it. (Of course there are quite a lot of people who just pretend this because it's rather good for their "street credibility", but let's just assume that nobody posting in this thread is...)
    If you take the average game magazine then you will see that PES/WE still has raving reviews in English, French, Belgian, Dutch and apparently also german and Japanese magazines, so trust me, this game is still one of the best available for every platform and for every "kind" of video game.
    Not all these magazines can be biased or bought by konami...

    Conclusion: konami is far from sinking, it is flourishing but not in a way that PES/WE gods like you guys (again irony) would want it to be.
    Last edited: 13 August 2006
  10. borjan

    borjan Non-League

    4 October 2005
    who wants to play against CPU, when best thing is beer and PES series to play with mates and friends

    and thats why we all love this game

    Konami :applause:
  11. Terryb47

    Terryb47 Conference

    4 August 2004
    I just don't understand the anger, if Konami didn't release a new WE every year you'd be complaining why they don't release a new one yet. You don't like the game fine, don't buy the next one. but would you play FIFA instead? no.

    I must admit I haven't played ML since WE6, so I can't judge that. I do however think it's ridiculous to say the game is shite and that Konami is selling out because of the ML doesn't work the way you want it to be.

    WE10 did become arcadey, but that doesn't mean the next edition WE11 will be the same: again I say it, with every new edition you need to relearn to play the game: the way of passing, AI, shooting. it's all different. enough to for me to buy and try it out. (yes we all know the keeper is totally rubbish in WE10)

    I would never go back playing PES4 for example: the controls are just ancient, you can't control your players the way you want to.
  12. Nick Cave

    Nick Cave Wrexham fan for my sins...

    10 July 2004
    Non football league waste land...
    Wrexham AFC
    Do you read what's being written in these threads.... do you even play PES or WE?? Nobody is saying it's shite, well some are saying that about the keepers... allot of people here BUY both the WE and PES titles and yes even FIFA.... but the game needs to evolve and grow, Konami are in a comfort zone and like EA can shift allot of units for very little effort. Yes we moan and complain about the bits we don't like, it's a forum that's what it's for, We all as a collective I think, can agree the game play is second to none, but the rest has changed little year on year but was already lacking if not way behind the opposition!!
    For those who don't use the ML then as a title it's probably OK and for those who play with mates and a beer, I'd say give the ML a go on 5 or 6 *s on the same team against the CPU it's fab!!
    As for the ML it's a pathetic joke in this day and age and anyone who says it's great... get your hands outta pants once in a while!! ;)
  13. Nick Cave

    Nick Cave Wrexham fan for my sins...

    10 July 2004
    Non football league waste land...
    Wrexham AFC
    :lmao: :applause: Fantastic... ;)
  14. Terryb47

    Terryb47 Conference

    4 August 2004
    Well the thread name says enough. I base my reply on that, the opening post and it's tone.

    of course you can complain about the game itself, we all do. but to say Konami is like EA just because of the crappy ML (and that it's hard to score while AI scores 100% from it's chances) is bit anal isn't it? ;)

    The ML might be not improved, but the game itself does evolve with each new edition.
  15. Nick Cave

    Nick Cave Wrexham fan for my sins...

    10 July 2004
    Non football league waste land...
    Wrexham AFC
    Okay lets beg to differ you say evolve I say minor tweak, ;) but I have to say Konami are going down the Flash bang route of EA, all big names and glossy marketing. It's just the way the Corporate wheels work my friend. Until it's pushed in the market place nothing much will change... you don't mess with a cash cow!!

    As for the first quote allot of it was on the button, though if Konami were sinking I think you would find the game would improve almost overnight!! :D
  16. vik_sohonie

    vik_sohonie Guest

    Drekkard - if youre talking about WE10 - URE RIGHT, i like the game but the CPU does predict everything ure going to do and overpowers you and scores when it decides it has to. Agree with everything you say but if u are talking bout WE10, IT IS A VERY VERY DIFFERENT GAME. Forget PES4/5, WE10 is very new control wise as well but there are a few tweaks that just make you watch the replay of what just happened and say "WTF!!!" i liked WE8 Livewire Evolution personally the best.
  17. Terryb47

    Terryb47 Conference

    4 August 2004
    If we talk about the gamesindustry: things have changed alot since the Playstation became 'standard'. games aren't made for the hardcore gamers anymore. Those let's say casual gamers don't want difficult games they want the same thing over n over (yes your EA customer). And every developer does the same: make games that people want to play and try to sell as many games as possible.

    And that exactly was the reason SEGA Dreamcast failed: people don't want innovation. But the true gamers embraced it, including all the cool games it had.

    still saying Konami is selling out just because you don't like the game series that's is stupid. For example I personally loved MGS1, but I didn't like MGS2 or MGS3, does this make me think any less of Konami? No.
  18. ClassicD

    ClassicD Galáctico

    11 November 2001
    Terry, the problem is Konami don't seem to be moving the game on that much with each new version these days, it's almost moving sideways instead of forward. There was a time when every single version was far superior to the last, and the anticipation to play a new release much higher. Now it just seems like they change elements of the gameplay for the sake of making the game appear different and new, not to benefit the game.
  19. juce

    juce Premiership

    7 November 2003
    not to nit-pick, but why all these irony hints? we may be fanboys, but we're not stupid.

    now, on the subject: i do agree what you're saying about what Konami sees as the "target audience". But also let's not forget the importance of competition. Konami are doing what they doing, and will keep doing that until there is a decent competition. In other words, when their sales numbers will take a dive, that's when the drammatically improved version of the game will come out. Otherwise, what's the motivation?
    Last edited: 14 August 2006
  20. Stan

    Stan Allez les Lionceaux !!!

    12 September 2002
    There is a decent competition in terms of sales: Fifa by EA...
    And the irony hints?????
    Well, as much as i like this forum, most users think that they need to have a specific profile to be accepted on this forum.
    The profile (note the irony again):

    1 being a PES god or still better WE god (doing the treble in Ml after two seasons, some real aces claim to have achieved the treble after one season, they are fantastic WE/PES player but not the brightest kids in town).
    2 having played the games on PSX (or the platform before PSX, can't remember what that was)even if they are 13 years old.
    3 preferring WE by far above PES (PES is for sissies)
    4 preferring multi-player above single player (single player is for sissies)
    5 claiming not to be a fan boy.
    6 hating EA and every single game EA has produced although playing NBA Street and SSX in the closet.

    There are people around who are genuinely like that, but not half as much as the number who claim to be....i like to make fun of them...not to be offensive, but to amuse myself.
    But of course i am a sissie, i never played a WE/PES/ISS game before the PS2, i never played a WE game, never played online and succeded only once to win the treble in the ML. I only once played against a human opponent, but i won, so i have a 100% score!!!!
  21. Nick Cave

    Nick Cave Wrexham fan for my sins...

    10 July 2004
    Non football league waste land...
    Wrexham AFC
    Stan you kill me......... ;)
  22. Nick Cave

    Nick Cave Wrexham fan for my sins...

    10 July 2004
    Non football league waste land...
    Wrexham AFC
    If your directing this at what I said about Konami becoming like EA, then you have just proved my argument.... thanks!! :D

    ClassicD's spot on don't you see that too.....
    Last edited: 14 August 2006
  23. JayM

    JayM International

    17 April 2004
    North Yorkshire
    I agree with most of this post...

    PES3 does seem to have more of a feeling of freedom and I did play that a lot more than I've done 5 or 6. Less teams, less options and I didn't mod the game then. Yet I had great fun in ML and played season after season as Old Firm Green. :)

    I've read that WE10 has gone back to that sort of gameplay and I hope PES6 on 360 can keep me playing ML for years.
  24. Disqo

    Disqo Championship

    25 June 2002
    I agree with this thread, Konami has stopped innovating what they are doing now is just adding one or two tweaks here and there. I have no problem with the CPU beating me, but when I get beaten because Robinho can now out jump Nesta, or Owen can out muscle Baptista, then it is just wrong.
  25. Slobber

    Slobber boycotting PES

    3 August 2003
    Merseyside, England
    Liverpool FC
    Yes, WE is really overrated. I've always absolutely fucking hated the lack of control over the players, and the randomness that is in the gameplay.

    I lose games, and win games, playing no better or worse, and it just feels like the computer decides whether I win ot not. I haven't played WE in ages, and won't do again any time soon.
  26. ClassicD

    ClassicD Galáctico

    11 November 2001
    Do you play PES? If so, that's just daft, both games suffer from the same problems.
  27. cappz8

    cappz8 League 2

    20 March 2003
    Berlin City West
    lets hope winning eleven producers read these forums and think about the way the series developed over the past 2 yrs. i agree with everything you wrote and i have to add a few more points.
    winning eleven 10 has unfortunately exceeded my personal tolerance of unreality in football video games. i mean, the versions before we10 already reached that level but we10 didnt change the wrong way konami is going so its the game which exceeds everything.
    even though most people will disagree, i even had hours of discussions with my friends when playing we10, compared to real football on tv we10 is too damn fast by far. i mean everything, the players movements, the way the whole game is brought to the offense. even the cross balls from midfield with the o button are too fast. i can understand that in a 10 or 15 min match there is no other way to get the stats in the end right like 15 shots each team or so but then please konami, give us the gamespeed slider back, so that every we player can adjust the gamespeed to his liking like on ps1.

    i dont need to go into anymore detail with the CPU cheating, drekkard said it all but also when playing against humans, after a few hours of playing, everybody tend to run the same routines to score goals. they dont even think anymore about creating a beautiful midfield game of football, they just execute give and go passes or dribble around the whole opponents defence just to finally even go around the keeper to score the goal. thats just plain stupid!
    the game doesnt want you to play football.
    the game is made to just run, run, run and score, score, score.
    and that even way too fast!

    konami definitely has to change the whole concept for the ps3 versions.

    lets hope they can bring the game back to real football.
  28. zoozooka

    zoozooka Guest

    It's quite stupid that there are so many people willing to pay so much money just to get an update version of the game.

    Konami knows that the people will surrender their hard-earned bucks every year for a product that are muddled and tampered a little with the codes and new interface.
  29. Trance_Allstar

    Trance_Allstar I love lamp

    18 March 2006
    I also agree with most of the things said.

    I am bothered to a slightly lesser extent, but I am still bothered at times.

    But the biggest problem to me for atleast PES4 and PES5 has been the PS2. With the leap to next-gen that is upon us, I believe Konami will once again have plenty of room to develop it. One could guess that the "scripting" of player behaviour that the last games have had might be due to lack of space to actually improve the AI. So instead of smarter AI we get cheating AI.

    Also, for the love of god, please use the analog stick in coming series. I am sick of sending 50-metre long passes out into the stands because I only can aim in 8 directions, and I strongly dislike auto-aim algorithms since I at times might want to aim straight for a player and sometimes in the space infront of him. No excuses, analog pads are everywhere, start using them.
  30. Lee Miller

    Lee Miller Non-League

    1 May 2006
    Spot on big man, i can't argue against the CPU as much as i don't notice all these things but end of the day if the ML is pissing you off there is always a good game with your friends which can never change

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