FIFA & PES: Contrast & Compare

Discussion in 'FIFA' started by Clown Baby, 8 September 2015.

  1. DexX

    DexX Conference

    11 January 2019
    FC Sochaux
    @Hels And what do you think about the AI of previous titles? (PES 2018, 2017..)
  2. Chris Davies

    Chris Davies Chief PESsimist Staff

    14 May 2003
    Tranmere Rovers
    Pass/shot "error" isn't a thing in PES and it never has been, and probably never will be (I've long argued that even your own passes are never misplaced*, they're just intercepted by the AI). As a result, the AI plays the same 100% perfect football (being discussed in your quote) in every PES game ever.

    *It seems that the only pass outcomes are - successful pass, intercepted pass, or pass out of play (and the same applies to the AI)...

    "Error" is the major gameplay difference between FIFA and PES:

    • FIFA "freed" the ball (and players) from rails about ten years ago - which allows loose passes and poor shots due to poor contact on the ball - but this freedom (and infinite amount more variables) gives the AI so much to think about that it plays really basic football to win (i.e. not realistic, hoofing it forward all the time)

    • PES has never "freed" the ball (or players) - to this day you can feel how "locked-on" your player is at certain times, and every contact with the ball is perfect (which is why passes are never misplaced and so many goals are identical) - but there's less for the AI to "think about", so it can maintain challenging gameplay

    I've been playing PES for the last couple of weeks and I'm still enjoying it against the AI, even though I realise dribbling is pointless against the perfect AI defenders, and even though I realise I've seen the same goal about 20 times now.

    It remains challenging to CREATE those chances - whereas on FIFA you can float through the midfield and hit through-balls to wingers (who are never tracked) all day long. In a career mode game as Newcastle on FIFA, on Legendary, I'm 5th after 15 games. In my ML as Newcastle, on Superstar, I'm 15th and enjoying the challenge.
    DexX likes this.
  3. DexX

    DexX Conference

    11 January 2019
    FC Sochaux
  4. Chris Davies

    Chris Davies Chief PESsimist Staff

    14 May 2003
    Tranmere Rovers
    I play on the PS4, no gameplay changes (except speed -1), with an option file from that I've updated to include January transfers and manager moves.

    I have PES 2011 to 2017 installed on my PC but I think the gameplay is better now than it's ever been - even though it's still flawed because of how "locked-on" everything is (I'd love to be able to dribble past defenders, and for the AI players to act like the real player - dribblers dribbling and not just passing, for example).
    slamsoze, koningfrikandel and DexX like this.
  5. DexX

    DexX Conference

    11 January 2019
    FC Sochaux
    Alright, and did you try Fifa 19?
  6. Chris Davies

    Chris Davies Chief PESsimist Staff

    14 May 2003
    Tranmere Rovers
    Yes, as I said above:

    In short, I'd say FIFA is a better game on the ball, but the AI is horrible to play against - PES is stiff and clunky and a million miles from organic (getting your players to dribble almost involves pressing buttons a second in advance, it's really poor in this regard), but the AI is challenging.

    In FIFA, if I play Man City with a poor team, I can beat them easily because A) there is so much space, B) their defending is useless (the one area where it probably DOES need to be more "lock-on" like PES), and C) the general attributes of my players don't make a huge difference in their quality.

    In PES, they're very difficult to beat. Which means that's the game I want to play...
    wijnar1 and DexX like this.
  7. Joonloop

    Joonloop FUMA

    27 March 2018
    Northern Ireland
    Why dont yall people who complain about ai play online, if you are able to? Genuinely curious.

    Because imo ai has never matched compared to human V human, not even in the so-called glory days of ps2 pes. There has always, always, always been predictable, exploitable, and ultimately dull strategies that that the ai falls into. So to see people complain about the same stuff 14 odd years later is odd and kinda like "Well duh" to me

    Humans aren't perfect of course - timewasters suck for instance - but on the whole the human experience far outweighs the ai imo
  8. Chris Davies

    Chris Davies Chief PESsimist Staff

    14 May 2003
    Tranmere Rovers
    Many reasons.

    I buy football games to be a part of a virtual recreation of the real world. I play football games to take a poor team and slowly (not overnight) turn them into a club that rise a division, or two, and then struggle again, with the AI providing a realistic interpretation of every real-life team I come up against, mirroring the real team's ability, manager, tactics...

    That's alongside real-world problems, like getting through an injury crisis, developing youngsters, transfer windows, having to sell players to get by...

    Playing online immediately means resigning from realism (in more ways than one), whether you play FUT/myClub or the standard "Divisions", and resigning from club management in general (just pressing "play match" over and over).

    FUT/myClub means having the best players in the world from day one (which it never used to be - you used to start with a bronze team and work your way up, which I enjoyed). It means playing against people who spam buttons and use whatever the latest exploit is to force a result. Playing the AI might be rubbish, but in comparison to playing online, at least the football they play is semi-realistic (with variety based on team strengths or pre-defined tactics, not based on giving the ball to the fastest player, or only ever using finesse shots).

    Outside of gameplay, it's boring. There's nothing to do other than buy the best players (who exist thousands of times over), and be placed in divisions based on your performance rather than your team's performance (you don't play in a league, even in "Divisions", you simply have to reach a certain points total - there are no teams around you).

    I hate it, frankly. Both games have created eSports that are games in their own right, but they're not football games. If career modes didn't exist, I wouldn't buy the games.

    You play on manual - I struggle to find any matches on manual (I have tried, largely in FIFA but also in PES) and even then, it could be the best gameplay in the world, but there's no realism in the squad management mechanics. Injured player? Buy an injury card! All that crap... If you play "Divisions" or similar, it's just playing the same game over and over (not in gameplay terms, but in squad management terms - you have no reason to rotate your squad, or take risks on fatigued players or developing youth players).

    And frankly, I don't want to have to play on manual. There should be a football game that exists by now where you can't simply push a random direction on the stick (where no player exists) and the "pass" button, and yet always make a successful pass, by default. There has to be a half-way house between you never miss a pass and you must get the exact degree of stick rotation and length of button press right to make any pass.

    Granted, win online and you know you've beaten a person, which is more challenging than beating the CPU, and therefore satisfying. But I feel more satisfaction playing PES and getting a Europa League place after a long season against semi-realistic AI...

    ...than playing FUT/myClub and reaching a designated "WIN" points total, after just ten games, playing as a 90-rated super-team, against a fantasy team of players from three different eras, in a match that plays like pinballs flying between magnets, with someone holding a gun to your head and screaming "PASS NOW THEY'RE PRESSING PASS PASS PASS FORWARD FORWARD FORWARD" because tactics (by-and-large) mean absolute jack-shit and you have to "play their game" of pressing for 90 minutes and never letting go of "sprint" and always being on all-out attack and it's just so shit.

    In my opinion. (You asked...)

    The question "why don't you play online" elicits the same response in me, i.e. "why the hell would anyone play online" (due to all the above). But I know many do... because we all enjoy different things...

    Even if you gave me my dream online football management experience somehow - a persistent world where every player only exists once, where there are real transfers between clubs that you negotiate to try and get the best deal (because budgets matter), where you play every league/cup game but it's against another person and not the AI...

    ...the gameplay would be so highly skewed to the person, and not the team or their strengths, that no match would be (e.g.) Newcastle v Tottenham. It wouldn't represent them at all. It would be Chris v Other Guy, both playing how we always play, which isn't shaped by the type of players we have, but by the engine's "weaknesses".
    Last edited: 5 February 2019
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  9. slamsoze

    slamsoze Premiership

    28 September 2010
    In very short words. Because PvP is the "deathmatch arena" while vsAI is the "story mode campaign".

    P.S.: Soz, i was typing while Chris posted his reply.
  10. Joonloop

    Joonloop FUMA

    27 March 2018
    Northern Ireland
    @Chris Davies

    The gamemode argument I understand. It would be good if there was an online career type mode in which you carry out all that mnagement stuff. (wasnt there a mode like this at some point?) ive always thouht fut should be about building up your players stats/team chemistry rather than just slotting the finished articles into your team.

    As for divisons/seasons.. If the gameplay is good enouh then I find this mode sufficient. Ive been playing fifa16 online seasons for years. Many people on these fan sites always talk about pure gameplay... Well this mode is that mantra put into practice! Pure gameplay!

    As for full manual.. I can completely understand people not liking it. However I firmly believe full freedom in aim - and therefore not being at the whime of ai intrepreation - IS the best way to play football games, its just that the input method of analogue sticks is not nessesarcily the best control method to deliver this. Thats why ive always argued for visual guides (aim arrows) in full manual to act as more of a middle ground between full freedom and easing the difficulty. But aside from that, if you can imagine using some type of hand-pen input system to pass and shoot, then that could possibly deliver the accuracy and freedom and ease that parallels to real life better (just a rough and tentative idea). But I am quite against ai interpretation in aiming as I think it cheapens the game and makes processes of play predictable and exploitable on one hand, or random on the other.

    As for your final point.. The offlije game is already not Newcastle vs tottenham. Its player 1 vs tottenham. This is the reality of interactive gaming as user input will always override the thing that is supposed to mirror real life. If one truly wanted Newcastle vs tottenham then youd need to sim all the matches or play football mamager instead.

    With all that said.. What about playing online with people you are familar with, who play for fun and not cheese? I fully understand not wanting to put up with randos online. But people with similar intentions as yourself can make for consistenly enjotable games.
  11. Chris Davies

    Chris Davies Chief PESsimist Staff

    14 May 2003
    Tranmere Rovers
    PES had "Master League Online" at one point, which was half-way there. You had to win players at auction, but they still existed thousands of times over, and there were a few other management functions too. I never actually played it beyond a game or two, and I really regret it now (I read other peoples' stories about it!), but I didn't like the gameplay at the time.

    I've got FIFA 16 installed on the PC and every time I play it, I just feel like there's something missing - but I only play against the AI, and there's no variety between how one team plays and the next, so that's what it is. I'm sure it's great online but I miss the freedom of the ball in the latest game.

    I've said in another thread, but over Christmas, I played every PES and FIFA game I have (there's a lot), almost every day, for hours - and I came to the conclusion that the games I like the most are the most recent releases of both (largely due to gameplay / the ball feeling more free), even though I don't really like them. Which is pretty sad.

    Since FIFA introduced the small "direction arrow" guide underneath the player, I have to admit, I have it permanently switched on - and I don't even use manual passing! But it ends every argument (including the ones you have with yourself) about "why did 'the game' put that pass there, I wasn't aiming to him". With the guide on, you can instantly see that you just didn't realise you were at fault (99% of the time).

    I love the arrow when holding the manual pass modifier button in PES, too. You will have full-manual guys who argue that it's "cheating" but you can't tell from the length of the arrow whether your pass/shot is on target or not, it just gives you a bit more of an idea where you're aiming (which guarantees nothing).

    But I don't like manual passing and shooting because I just can't dedicate enough time to the game to be able to provide the (may-as-well-be) exact coordinates and power levels needed to put together a realistic passing move. Anyone who plays like Man City, stringing passes together, with manual passing, well... I'd have to quit my job to get to that level (if I ever could). It makes what should feel like a "natural" thing (hitting simple passes perfectly each time) feel like operating a flight simulator instead.

    Semi-passing on FIFA before the switch to Frostbite was a pretty great balance IMO (from 17 onwards it's become a little more "random", with some passes being too hard/slow without being related to your input, and it just feels weird/wrong).

    If every fully-assisted setting was deleted and "semi-assisted" (done right) became the only option other than full-manual, and people had to put just a little more effort into directing things properly, I'd be a very happy man. Assisted in its current state should be a kids-only mode.

    I agree with that - in-fact, there was a PES game on the Wii that took steps towards this system, and I really liked it as a concept, but just found it too unwieldy with the Wii controller (and the mobile game is interesting too, but you can't even change the difficulty level of the AI offline - or play in a Master League or similar - so it's not for me).

    If you're playing a game, there has to be some level of AI interpretation - it's AI by definition - and if you're using professional footballers, very basic passes should require little-to-no thought or effort, in my opinion. The reality of manual is that I play horrible, basic football because I know anything more difficult than a 10ft pass won't come off - when professionals (the guys that the game is supposed to be emulating) can string passes together with ease.

    But the way default (assisted) settings work now, you can be literally 90 degrees away from pointing towards someone, and your pass will still (always) find a man. How is that okay?

    Here's what really annoys me about it - I'm playing NHL 19 at the minute, and I've already ranted about how brilliant the career mode is (in comparison to FIFA), but in NHL, I am absolutely useless at hitting the target with passes and shots.

    With passes, a cone is displayed and if your target isn't in that cone, you'll just hit the puck into open space and the other team will pick it up. Yet in FIFA, your pass will just go to the next-nearest guy, perfectly.

    With shots, you have to aim the left stick in the right direction, and then pull the right stick back/forth in a straight line. The goal area lights up to show you when you're aiming at an area the goalie isn't covering. If your shot isn't aimed in the right vicinity, it just misses, sometimes (most times) embarrassingly (the equivalent of hitting a shot at the corner flag).

    Why can they do this with NHL, but don't do it with FIFA?

    The other major issue I have with manual passing (that you won't suffer from because you play online) is that when you use it, the AI "doesn't". They don't have to slow down their movement on the ball to look for more simple passes, or change the 100mph ping-pong way they play - passes just lock-on and get there perfectly, even if the passer is facing the opposite direction from the target (literally). It looks, and feels, totally wrong.

    That's the reality (as you said) but I live for the day when that's not the case. When the game punishes you for using a 4-2-4 with a terrible team and/or playing players out of position, and you realise you have to really consider everything you're doing in your setup - then I'll have my dream game.

    ML does have "Team Spirit", which, yes, can end up skewing the game way too far in the AI's favour when it's low (suspicious deflections, fouls given against you for 100% perfect tackles etc.) - but it means you have to work to change your team's identity, over time, and taking a risk (which sends your "Team Spirit" down) is a REAL risk (unlike in FIFA where playing a 15 year old doesn't make you any more vulnerable in that position).

    Because there's no progression in that - it's just the same as it's always been, playing football on the couch with a mate. I play a Master League with a mate and making decisions together that end up affecting your play and the health of the club is really satisfying - but I just don't find it satisfying playing endless friendlies. There's no point or purpose.

    To me, it's like making an unbelievably good driving simulator, but it only comes with two cars and one track. It might be incredible, it might have tyre flex models and G-force emulation and be indistinguishable from reality - but if all you do is drive around for a bit and then restart... It's just not much fun, for me!
    Alx1234 and banbenbin like this.
  12. Gunslinger

    Gunslinger Championship

    5 September 2016
    FIFA 19 is a much better football simulator than PES, which is a complete mess, but at the end of the day both games need to be rebuilt from the ground up. It's time.
  13. Chris Davies

    Chris Davies Chief PESsimist Staff

    14 May 2003
    Tranmere Rovers
    I agree, on-the-ball (excluding the weird ball physics).

    If they nail the AI, that for me is the final nail in the coffin of PES (for me personally - for others the coffin was nailed shut long ago, understandably).

    BUT. I played FIFA again last night. Played (as Newcastle) against Brighton. They won 4-0 - and every goal they scored was a power-header, from Andone, who's 5ft8in (being marked by a 6ft2in defender). It was absolutely mental.

    It felt even more unstoppable than PES on Superstar (which is bad). But then the next game, I played Chelsea... and won 4-0. Every goal I scored was a shot from outside the box, with Jonjo Shelvey, who is now top-scorer.

    How can this be considered playable (offline)?

    There was a goal Chelsea nearly scored where the ball deflected off someone's leg at 100mph, and literally the millisecond that it hit the leg, the striker launched his head at exactly where the ball was going to end up. At that point, I turned it off.

    FIFA's players do the humanly impossible - and I blame Frostbite 100%.

    I play FIFA for a while because of something I can't help loving (this year it's their brilliant UCL/UEL integration) - and end up ditching it because of some gameplay issue or AI issue.

    How many years (in a row) has that been the case? FIFA dazzles with something, but ultimately has a deep gameplay issue that means PES (for some) can still outshine it.
    Last edited: 7 February 2019
  14. Dennis_87

    Dennis_87 Championship

    27 September 2017
    No it isn't.
    Yes they both need to be rebuilt from the ground up.
  15. koningfrikandel

    koningfrikandel Championship

    5 May 2017
    Both games get fundamental things wrong in my view.
    Pes feels great on the ball has fouls and ball physics are excellent. However due to atrocious AI it is extremely scripted and predetermined as well as formulaic and boring as a result.
    Fifa is less cheat / scripted and less formulaic due to the ball being free but it has zero fouls (or close to it) and the ball physics feel off and movement jerky.

    I think this is why most of us switch between the two. Appalling that these are things they still cannot get right in this day and age. For me currently I prefer pes as I just can't stomach those ball physics on fifa. Strange as 18 and 17 seemed perfectly fine to me in this regard. A matter of pes absolutely nailing this I think.
  16. Joonloop

    Joonloop FUMA

    27 March 2018
    Northern Ireland
    Exactly. This is the reason I think the arrow from 17 onwards sucks actually. Because it's just a tiny arrowhead and nothing else. In 16 there is actually a full circle with little gaps in it to indicated north, east, south & west, which allows you to properly orient your aim, especially when using off-angle cameras like Broadcast.

    I agree. Some people are good enough to pull it off though. But not consistently - not in a way that properly parallels real life football. IMO. FUMA is just a bit too difficult on analogue sticks.


    Assisted should be deleted from online play, except for private/friendly matches.

    People can manually aim on first person shooters, so I really do believe they can handle semi-asisted aiming in FIFA. Assisted is just an over-automated joke to me. It's far too restricting.

    Yeah I seen videos of that game after the fact. Never got to try it myself though. It looks interesting.

    The issue is determining what qualifies as a "basic" pass.

    With manual aim you have full control over this qualification, so you can pass it 5 degrees in front of the receiver to retain their momentum, or 10 degrees behind to keep it away from the oncoming defender.

    With assisted aim it's always the AI interpreting your "basic" passes. Which often equates to, say, only "put it on their feet". Theres no longer control over the minutia. And then this AI interpretation inevitably ends up limiting gameplay, because it's based on a limited code which produces predictable, patterned results (hence the exploitable pass/shot patterns we see every. single. year).

    And this has ramifications extending beyond just aiming, as everything then has to account for the assisted aim. So now defender interceptions, goalie saves, blocks, etc all get twisted to adhere to the assisted logic. Hence why we see bullshit warping, pathetic goalie saves and the like.

    I havent' actually heard of this NHL system. Is this is default way to aim in the game? Is it like or semi or manual? Sounds kinda interesting.

    Yeah I feel that. I would love to see the AI play on manual controls. I wonder what that alone would do for the offline game.

    The point or purpose is pure gameplay! endless football, on-the-pitch fun! And the equivalent would not be only 2 cars, it would be 100s, as there are 100s of footy teams you can choose from.

    But racing games are probably similar in this regard as some people play just single races - trying to beat their times and whatnot - whilst others are in it for the career mode.
    Chris Davies likes this.
  17. PRO_TOO

    PRO_TOO Team Heffernan

    25 May 2003
    Rego Park, Germany
    Team Heffernan
    so when you now know for sure its you... why do you keep it enabled?!
    when i played fuma, whatever game, i always thought its my input thats wrong, so the pass wont reach the intended target.

    so when you got comfirmation by the arrow... why do you leave it on?!
    and you are not going back to semi or manual passing!? what about your shooting? manual or assisted?
  18. Chris Davies

    Chris Davies Chief PESsimist Staff

    14 May 2003
    Tranmere Rovers
    If I don't have it turned on, I end up aiming crosses back towards the centre circle without realising I've not "corrected" my aim enough. With the marker on, I can aim a cross sensibly like a real player would (without it being unrealistic - input isn't represented 1:1, physics and player attributes all come into it).

    The same applies for passes, shots etc. - it's about eliminating the mistakes I don't realise I'm making. If I end up passing to the wrong person because my input was wrong, that's not realistic - you wouldn't play a match and intentionally play a perfect pass to someone and go "oh wait, I didn't mean to do that"...

    The AI is nowhere near intelligent enough to understand what you're aiming for with semi/assisted passes, which leads to players dancing around the ball not knowing if they should run for it or whether someone else should. It's really bad.

    I have passing on assisted (which also helps keep your pass accuracy at the same level as the AI's, which is always going to be high on Legendary - don't bother with Ultimate, I've never seen it below 100% by half-time on Ultimate)...

    Lobs I've got on manual, crosses semi, and shooting semi (I've set shooting to 51 error now for the human, because on semi, there's plenty)...
    PRO_TOO likes this.
  19. PRO_TOO

    PRO_TOO Team Heffernan

    25 May 2003
    Rego Park, Germany
    Team Heffernan
    alright, that makes sense!
    final one: do you have that 2nd player indicator enabled?
  20. Chris Davies

    Chris Davies Chief PESsimist Staff

    14 May 2003
    Tranmere Rovers
    Yes, because it means if you use second-player-press you know who's going to get dragged out of position. It's essential IMO, as it is on PES!
  21. PRO_TOO

    PRO_TOO Team Heffernan

    25 May 2003
    Rego Park, Germany
    Team Heffernan
    thx. i dont have that problem when playing the other game (have the second indicator disabled)! dont know what it is... maybe i have it in my guts! when i was testing with it (when the feature was new), it confused me a little. so its the other way around for me, i guess! :D
    Dennis_87 likes this.
  22. PRO_TOO

    PRO_TOO Team Heffernan

    25 May 2003
    Rego Park, Germany
    Team Heffernan
    just a quick shoutout:
    i love the fact, that i can go home after work and have two options to enjoy football on a console! cant wait. just saying. :D
    will play both tonight! have a nice weekend folks!
  23. El Pajaro

    El Pajaro League 1

    14 May 2008
    PES 2019 is the first PES I never even bothered to try. Tell me... what has improved from PES 2018?

    Do you get fouls? In PES 2018 you usually got ZERO. Or max 1-2 per game. That was so utterly stupid. How can you have a football "simulation" without fouls and free kicks?

    How is the CPU comeback logic? You used the world "mental" and the comeback logic really was "mental" in PES 2017, which I played excessively. I never played a 0-0 game in PES 2017, never. The games were often complete arcade scorefests in tournament mode. I had a 6-5 World Cup semifinal. That's when I gave up. There was nothing fundamentally bad in the gameplay (besides those perfect passes that you explained) but it had very little to do with the actual sport of football. :)

    I think FIFA 16 with the latest Gameplayzer and cl.ini settings are ridiculously superior to anything PES unless PES 2019 was a real gamechanger (no pun intended). Give it a shot. Ciais made some great changes to the gameplay.
  24. PRO_TOO

    PRO_TOO Team Heffernan

    25 May 2003
    Rego Park, Germany
    Team Heffernan
    1. paragraph: a lot. Better or worse? Make your own choice. Don’t wanna sound rude. Give it a try, it’s out there for 10-20 bucks.
    2. p: yes. Enough to make it noticeable. Enough to not break the flow. Imo.
    (4-12 per 20 min match)
    3. p: it’s all skrewed!! Logic ain’t the right word for it. ;) could all be way better. Top 3 on my list.
    4. p: funny. I even watched some fifa16 gameplay (while looking for the other games 2015 footage) today and found it quiet interesting.
    Both looked good for beeing 3 years old. Pretty good!! Missed some stuff the same time I hated some.

    Edit: I know you guys are counting! :(
    El Pajaro likes this.
  25. El Pajaro

    El Pajaro League 1

    14 May 2008
    I just played a game of PES 2013 by the way (with gameplay mod). It's quite decent just like the PES fans said. It might be the best modern PES out there. I even got quite nice stats (1990 World Cup match ARG-Cameroon).

    I used to play this a lot when it was new.

  26. Dennis_87

    Dennis_87 Championship

    27 September 2017
    Pes 13 was good for it's time but by today's standards it's very arcade and stiff as a wood.Also bad and outdated player models with every player having Roberto Carlos calfs lol.For me the best three in general if you consider gameplay,realism,animations and graphics which are important for me are:

    1. Pes 19
    2. Pes 18
    3. Pes 14

    Pes 19 still the best in general even with it's issues.Although i mostly play online this year.

    About Fifa 16,i also liked it and played it when it came out and for 2 years long and i prefered it over Pes back then.
    And it had the moddinway mod which is great.But after some point i just can't overlook Fifa's eternal problems with twitchiness and rushed animations.
    The thing i hated the most is when you run with your player to mark the opponent and when you change directions with him he's turning so quickly and fake like a flashy cartoon without any sense of weight.Also by today's standards it's body models are pretty bad and the graphics look dead.
    Frostbite improved body models and graphics a lot.Also brought more weight but it made it clunkier somehow.
    I play an exhibition match on Fifa 19(which i think is the best Fifa till now in general) sometimes for something different and to take a break from Pes 19.
    Sometimes it plays good enough and i kinda enjoy it.For example i played Watford vs Burnley and it had good weight,slower realistic pace and felt good.Then i played Marseille vs Lyon and it felt like shit.On steroids,very fast,no weight anf felt fake.It almost feels like different stadiums and different lighting affects the gameplay for some reason.
    But it can also happen with the same teams.I remember feeling this and playing with Bournemouth or Watford.One match would feel slower,weighty and realistic and another one with the same teams would feel arcady fast and no weight.It's like there's some code in the game which alters the gameplay every few matches and puts it on steroids even if you have it on slow and with sliders.Very weird.
    There are many guys on OperationSports who also say the same thing happens to them and i remember this happens in every Fifa i have played from 15 and after.
    It's a shame because if the gameplay was consistent it would have been much better.When it plays more naturally and slowly and has weight it feels good enough.I still prefer Pes 19 in general but i can enjoy a match in Fifa 19 also when it doesn't go in steroid mode.
    PRO_TOO likes this.
  27. hitmanuk

    hitmanuk International

    23 October 2002
    As a completely offline player FIFA with sliders wins it now. For some reason PES seemed to be improving with patches but the last one has made the AI worse again. 8 times out of 10 it's the same wing attack and when the AI needs to score there's nothing you can do about it
  28. Chris Davies

    Chris Davies Chief PESsimist Staff

    14 May 2003
    Tranmere Rovers
    It's just so hard to love the skateyness and the jelly-like over-the-top ragdoll nature of the game. PES is (by comparison) solid - even if that leads to it being formulaic.

    Don't get me wrong, FIFA more closely recreates modern football in my opinion (to play, not to look at) - with individual skill having much more impact on the outcome of a game, and with the variety in all things (particularly shooting).

    You see videos like the one @slamsoze posted in the PES 2019 thread today, of the AI scoring the exact same goal, game after game after game (and the AI's first-time passing is through the roof post-DP4, which is my personal pet hate that I can't get past) - and you realise that, whether FIFA is good or not, PES just isn't a good game against the AI (whether it feels great on the ball or not).

    Going back to PES 2017 has made me realise that 2018 and 2019 have tried to open up gameplay and add more freedom of movement, which has forced the AI to become a perfect ping-ponging same-goal-scoring machine. Going back to PES 2017, you can feel the rails that have cursed PES since literally the first PSX games. But the balance is 1000x better. In my opinion.

    I honestly don't think that (up to now) they've had a big enough development team to create an AI that can realistically cope with how many more variables there are when you make movement as organic as they've done with 2018 and 2019 (hence why they use the same patterns of movement all the time, i.e. the low-cross goal) - but they don't care about AI. These changes are for the benefit of myClub etc... (The same applies to FIFA by the way, but sliders save the day.)

    I'm really enjoying my current FIFA 19 career mode - but at least once a game I'll see something jelly-legged and silly, and the AI will move forward like it's a basketball court, and... It doesn't completely spoil it, but, it does a little bit.

    Your ability to enjoy the game depends entirely on your willingness to "look the other way" when that stuff happens. I can, because I don't feel like it (usually) affects the gameplay too much, and because they're not cheats (just a horrible defect of the engine that affects the AI too) - whereas PES making Huddersfield ping-pong and score the same low-cross goal that every other team scores against you... It permanently affects gameplay, and I can't "look the other way" from that.

    I've said it before but Frostbite is ruining everything - not just FIFA. There are reports from guys developing games like Anthem and Dragon Age, decrying the thing. If development of the old engine hadn't stopped at FIFA 16, I think it would have been incredible by now.
    Last edited: 11 March 2019
  29. El Pajaro

    El Pajaro League 1

    14 May 2008
    My biggest issue with PES 2017 wasn't the lack of fouls or perfect passing. It was that sick comeback logic. When you were leading 3-2 (you rarely got results like 1-0, it's a very high scoring game) and the CPU got a corner kick you KNEW they're going to score, no matter what you do. It was ridiculous. You couldn't start playing ultra defensive and hold your lead because the comeback logic was so overboard.

    Check this post (FIFA 16). I was playing with 10 men after red card and managed to maintain my lead for 60 minutes and when the CPU scored, it was from my mistake. I didn't feel cheated at all. Of course the CPU pushes hard when they're trailing but it's not so apparent.

    I also find defending much easier on FIFA 16. You can use the short pass button for defenders positioning and it's very effective inside the penalty area. My lousy playing skills can be a factor too but I never felt comfortable defending on modern PES.
    Chris Davies likes this.
  30. shumway

    shumway Non-League

    29 August 2018
    The Switch version of Fifa still uses Ignite. Would be interesting if there are significant differences in gameplay. Every now and then I think about purchasing a used copy, but as I am permanently jumping between Fifa, PES 19 and 18 (for PS4) this year, another football game would bring me straight to the madhouse...

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