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Discussion in 'FIFA' started by Clown Baby, 8 September 2015.
@Hels And what do you think about the AI of previous titles? (PES 2018, 2017..)
Pass/shot "error" isn't a thing in PES and it never has been, and probably never will be (I've long argued that even your own passes are never misplaced*, they're just intercepted by the AI). As a result, the AI plays the same 100% perfect football (being discussed in your quote) in every PES game ever.
*It seems that the only pass outcomes are - successful pass, intercepted pass, or pass out of play (and the same applies to the AI)...
"Error" is the major gameplay difference between FIFA and PES:
FIFA "freed" the ball (and players) from rails about ten years ago - which allows loose passes and poor shots due to poor contact on the ball - but this freedom (and infinite amount more variables) gives the AI so much to think about that it plays really basic football to win (i.e. not realistic, hoofing it forward all the time)
PES has never "freed" the ball (or players) - to this day you can feel how "locked-on" your player is at certain times, and every contact with the ball is perfect (which is why passes are never misplaced and so many goals are identical) - but there's less for the AI to "think about", so it can maintain challenging gameplay
I've been playing PES for the last couple of weeks and I'm still enjoying it against the AI, even though I realise dribbling is pointless against the perfect AI defenders, and even though I realise I've seen the same goal about 20 times now.
It remains challenging to CREATE those chances - whereas on FIFA you can float through the midfield and hit through-balls to wingers (who are never tracked) all day long. In a career mode game as Newcastle on FIFA, on Legendary, I'm 5th after 15 games. In my ML as Newcastle, on Superstar, I'm 15th and enjoying the challenge.
@Chris Davies And you play PES 2019 with some patchs or DT?
I play on the PS4, no gameplay changes (except speed -1), with an option file from PESgaming.com that I've updated to include January transfers and manager moves.
I have PES 2011 to 2017 installed on my PC but I think the gameplay is better now than it's ever been - even though it's still flawed because of how "locked-on" everything is (I'd love to be able to dribble past defenders, and for the AI players to act like the real player - dribblers dribbling and not just passing, for example).
Alright, and did you try Fifa 19?
Yes, as I said above:
In short, I'd say FIFA is a better game on the ball, but the AI is horrible to play against - PES is stiff and clunky and a million miles from organic (getting your players to dribble almost involves pressing buttons a second in advance, it's really poor in this regard), but the AI is challenging.
In FIFA, if I play Man City with a poor team, I can beat them easily because A) there is so much space, B) their defending is useless (the one area where it probably DOES need to be more "lock-on" like PES), and C) the general attributes of my players don't make a huge difference in their quality.
In PES, they're very difficult to beat. Which means that's the game I want to play...
Why dont yall people who complain about ai play online, if you are able to? Genuinely curious.
Because imo ai has never matched compared to human V human, not even in the so-called glory days of ps2 pes. There has always, always, always been predictable, exploitable, and ultimately dull strategies that that the ai falls into. So to see people complain about the same stuff 14 odd years later is odd and kinda like "Well duh" to me
Humans aren't perfect of course - timewasters suck for instance - but on the whole the human experience far outweighs the ai imo
I buy football games to be a part of a virtual recreation of the real world. I play football games to take a poor team and slowly (not overnight) turn them into a club that rise a division, or two, and then struggle again, with the AI providing a realistic interpretation of every real-life team I come up against, mirroring the real team's ability, manager, tactics...
That's alongside real-world problems, like getting through an injury crisis, developing youngsters, transfer windows, having to sell players to get by...
Playing online immediately means resigning from realism (in more ways than one), whether you play FUT/myClub or the standard "Divisions", and resigning from club management in general (just pressing "play match" over and over).
FUT/myClub means having the best players in the world from day one (which it never used to be - you used to start with a bronze team and work your way up, which I enjoyed). It means playing against people who spam buttons and use whatever the latest exploit is to force a result. Playing the AI might be rubbish, but in comparison to playing online, at least the football they play is semi-realistic (with variety based on team strengths or pre-defined tactics, not based on giving the ball to the fastest player, or only ever using finesse shots).
Outside of gameplay, it's boring. There's nothing to do other than buy the best players (who exist thousands of times over), and be placed in divisions based on your performance rather than your team's performance (you don't play in a league, even in "Divisions", you simply have to reach a certain points total - there are no teams around you).
I hate it, frankly. Both games have created eSports that are games in their own right, but they're not football games. If career modes didn't exist, I wouldn't buy the games.
You play on manual - I struggle to find any matches on manual (I have tried, largely in FIFA but also in PES) and even then, it could be the best gameplay in the world, but there's no realism in the squad management mechanics. Injured player? Buy an injury card! All that crap... If you play "Divisions" or similar, it's just playing the same game over and over (not in gameplay terms, but in squad management terms - you have no reason to rotate your squad, or take risks on fatigued players or developing youth players).
And frankly, I don't want to have to play on manual. There should be a football game that exists by now where you can't simply push a random direction on the stick (where no player exists) and the "pass" button, and yet always make a successful pass, by default. There has to be a half-way house between you never miss a pass and you must get the exact degree of stick rotation and length of button press right to make any pass.
Granted, win online and you know you've beaten a person, which is more challenging than beating the CPU, and therefore satisfying. But I feel more satisfaction playing PES and getting a Europa League place after a long season against semi-realistic AI...
...than playing FUT/myClub and reaching a designated "WIN" points total, after just ten games, playing as a 90-rated super-team, against a fantasy team of players from three different eras, in a match that plays like pinballs flying between magnets, with someone holding a gun to your head and screaming "PASS NOW THEY'RE PRESSING PASS PASS PASS FORWARD FORWARD FORWARD" because tactics (by-and-large) mean absolute jack-shit and you have to "play their game" of pressing for 90 minutes and never letting go of "sprint" and always being on all-out attack and it's just so shit.
In my opinion. (You asked...)
The question "why don't you play online" elicits the same response in me, i.e. "why the hell would anyone play online" (due to all the above). But I know many do... because we all enjoy different things...
Even if you gave me my dream online football management experience somehow - a persistent world where every player only exists once, where there are real transfers between clubs that you negotiate to try and get the best deal (because budgets matter), where you play every league/cup game but it's against another person and not the AI...
...the gameplay would be so highly skewed to the person, and not the team or their strengths, that no match would be (e.g.) Newcastle v Tottenham. It wouldn't represent them at all. It would be Chris v Other Guy, both playing how we always play, which isn't shaped by the type of players we have, but by the engine's "weaknesses".
In very short words. Because PvP is the "deathmatch arena" while vsAI is the "story mode campaign".
P.S.: Soz, i was typing while Chris posted his reply.
The gamemode argument I understand. It would be good if there was an online career type mode in which you carry out all that mnagement stuff. (wasnt there a mode like this at some point?) ive always thouht fut should be about building up your players stats/team chemistry rather than just slotting the finished articles into your team.
As for divisons/seasons.. If the gameplay is good enouh then I find this mode sufficient. Ive been playing fifa16 online seasons for years. Many people on these fan sites always talk about pure gameplay... Well this mode is that mantra put into practice! Pure gameplay!
As for full manual.. I can completely understand people not liking it. However I firmly believe full freedom in aim - and therefore not being at the whime of ai intrepreation - IS the best way to play football games, its just that the input method of analogue sticks is not nessesarcily the best control method to deliver this. Thats why ive always argued for visual guides (aim arrows) in full manual to act as more of a middle ground between full freedom and easing the difficulty. But aside from that, if you can imagine using some type of hand-pen input system to pass and shoot, then that could possibly deliver the accuracy and freedom and ease that parallels to real life better (just a rough and tentative idea). But I am quite against ai interpretation in aiming as I think it cheapens the game and makes processes of play predictable and exploitable on one hand, or random on the other.
As for your final point.. The offlije game is already not Newcastle vs tottenham. Its player 1 vs tottenham. This is the reality of interactive gaming as user input will always override the thing that is supposed to mirror real life. If one truly wanted Newcastle vs tottenham then youd need to sim all the matches or play football mamager instead.
With all that said.. What about playing online with people you are familar with, who play for fun and not cheese? I fully understand not wanting to put up with randos online. But people with similar intentions as yourself can make for consistenly enjotable games.
PES had "Master League Online" at one point, which was half-way there. You had to win players at auction, but they still existed thousands of times over, and there were a few other management functions too. I never actually played it beyond a game or two, and I really regret it now (I read other peoples' stories about it!), but I didn't like the gameplay at the time.
I've got FIFA 16 installed on the PC and every time I play it, I just feel like there's something missing - but I only play against the AI, and there's no variety between how one team plays and the next, so that's what it is. I'm sure it's great online but I miss the freedom of the ball in the latest game.
I've said in another thread, but over Christmas, I played every PES and FIFA game I have (there's a lot), almost every day, for hours - and I came to the conclusion that the games I like the most are the most recent releases of both (largely due to gameplay / the ball feeling more free), even though I don't really like them. Which is pretty sad.
Since FIFA introduced the small "direction arrow" guide underneath the player, I have to admit, I have it permanently switched on - and I don't even use manual passing! But it ends every argument (including the ones you have with yourself) about "why did 'the game' put that pass there, I wasn't aiming to him". With the guide on, you can instantly see that you just didn't realise you were at fault (99% of the time).
I love the arrow when holding the manual pass modifier button in PES, too. You will have full-manual guys who argue that it's "cheating" but you can't tell from the length of the arrow whether your pass/shot is on target or not, it just gives you a bit more of an idea where you're aiming (which guarantees nothing).
But I don't like manual passing and shooting because I just can't dedicate enough time to the game to be able to provide the (may-as-well-be) exact coordinates and power levels needed to put together a realistic passing move. Anyone who plays like Man City, stringing passes together, with manual passing, well... I'd have to quit my job to get to that level (if I ever could). It makes what should feel like a "natural" thing (hitting simple passes perfectly each time) feel like operating a flight simulator instead.
Semi-passing on FIFA before the switch to Frostbite was a pretty great balance IMO (from 17 onwards it's become a little more "random", with some passes being too hard/slow without being related to your input, and it just feels weird/wrong).
If every fully-assisted setting was deleted and "semi-assisted" (done right) became the only option other than full-manual, and people had to put just a little more effort into directing things properly, I'd be a very happy man. Assisted in its current state should be a kids-only mode.
I agree with that - in-fact, there was a PES game on the Wii that took steps towards this system, and I really liked it as a concept, but just found it too unwieldy with the Wii controller (and the mobile game is interesting too, but you can't even change the difficulty level of the AI offline - or play in a Master League or similar - so it's not for me).
If you're playing a game, there has to be some level of AI interpretation - it's AI by definition - and if you're using professional footballers, very basic passes should require little-to-no thought or effort, in my opinion. The reality of manual is that I play horrible, basic football because I know anything more difficult than a 10ft pass won't come off - when professionals (the guys that the game is supposed to be emulating) can string passes together with ease.
But the way default (assisted) settings work now, you can be literally 90 degrees away from pointing towards someone, and your pass will still (always) find a man. How is that okay?
Here's what really annoys me about it - I'm playing NHL 19 at the minute, and I've already ranted about how brilliant the career mode is (in comparison to FIFA), but in NHL, I am absolutely useless at hitting the target with passes and shots.
With passes, a cone is displayed and if your target isn't in that cone, you'll just hit the puck into open space and the other team will pick it up. Yet in FIFA, your pass will just go to the next-nearest guy, perfectly.
With shots, you have to aim the left stick in the right direction, and then pull the right stick back/forth in a straight line. The goal area lights up to show you when you're aiming at an area the goalie isn't covering. If your shot isn't aimed in the right vicinity, it just misses, sometimes (most times) embarrassingly (the equivalent of hitting a shot at the corner flag).
Why can they do this with NHL, but don't do it with FIFA?
The other major issue I have with manual passing (that you won't suffer from because you play online) is that when you use it, the AI "doesn't". They don't have to slow down their movement on the ball to look for more simple passes, or change the 100mph ping-pong way they play - passes just lock-on and get there perfectly, even if the passer is facing the opposite direction from the target (literally). It looks, and feels, totally wrong.
That's the reality (as you said) but I live for the day when that's not the case. When the game punishes you for using a 4-2-4 with a terrible team and/or playing players out of position, and you realise you have to really consider everything you're doing in your setup - then I'll have my dream game.
ML does have "Team Spirit", which, yes, can end up skewing the game way too far in the AI's favour when it's low (suspicious deflections, fouls given against you for 100% perfect tackles etc.) - but it means you have to work to change your team's identity, over time, and taking a risk (which sends your "Team Spirit" down) is a REAL risk (unlike in FIFA where playing a 15 year old doesn't make you any more vulnerable in that position).
Because there's no progression in that - it's just the same as it's always been, playing football on the couch with a mate. I play a Master League with a mate and making decisions together that end up affecting your play and the health of the club is really satisfying - but I just don't find it satisfying playing endless friendlies. There's no point or purpose.
To me, it's like making an unbelievably good driving simulator, but it only comes with two cars and one track. It might be incredible, it might have tyre flex models and G-force emulation and be indistinguishable from reality - but if all you do is drive around for a bit and then restart... It's just not much fun, for me!
FIFA 19 is a much better football simulator than PES, which is a complete mess, but at the end of the day both games need to be rebuilt from the ground up. It's time.
I agree, on-the-ball (excluding the weird ball physics).
If they nail the AI, that for me is the final nail in the coffin of PES (for me personally - for others the coffin was nailed shut long ago, understandably).
BUT. I played FIFA again last night. Played (as Newcastle) against Brighton. They won 4-0 - and every goal they scored was a power-header, from Andone, who's 5ft8in (being marked by a 6ft2in defender). It was absolutely mental.
It felt even more unstoppable than PES on Superstar (which is bad). But then the next game, I played Chelsea... and won 4-0. Every goal I scored was a shot from outside the box, with Jonjo Shelvey, who is now top-scorer.
How can this be considered playable (offline)?
There was a goal Chelsea nearly scored where the ball deflected off someone's leg at 100mph, and literally the millisecond that it hit the leg, the striker launched his head at exactly where the ball was going to end up. At that point, I turned it off.
FIFA's players do the humanly impossible - and I blame Frostbite 100%.
I play FIFA for a while because of something I can't help loving (this year it's their brilliant UCL/UEL integration) - and end up ditching it because of some gameplay issue or AI issue.
How many years (in a row) has that been the case? FIFA dazzles with something, but ultimately has a deep gameplay issue that means PES (for some) can still outshine it.
No it isn't.
Yes they both need to be rebuilt from the ground up.
Both games get fundamental things wrong in my view.
Pes feels great on the ball has fouls and ball physics are excellent. However due to atrocious AI it is extremely scripted and predetermined as well as formulaic and boring as a result.
Fifa is less cheat / scripted and less formulaic due to the ball being free but it has zero fouls (or close to it) and the ball physics feel off and movement jerky.
I think this is why most of us switch between the two. Appalling that these are things they still cannot get right in this day and age. For me currently I prefer pes as I just can't stomach those ball physics on fifa. Strange as 18 and 17 seemed perfectly fine to me in this regard. A matter of pes absolutely nailing this I think.