FIFA 12 Discussion Thread

The thing to point out about that, from looking at it briefly, is that it isn't just for FIFA. I'd be EA Sports as a whole. So if you play Tiger Woods, NHL and FIFA exhaustively, then this will probably be very good value for money for you. But if you only play one, then it's hard to see why you'd want to spend 10 to 30 more quid unless the new web features etc for that title were utterly amazing.


Placebo said:
Of course, but the last two Fifa's in particular have shown how foolhardy such an expectation is...
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Is the answer really to cough up in order for them to meet their original expectations? Or should any extra money you pay go towards having a 'premium' experience? The logic to just throwing more money at a company for achieving the same level of performance is pretty dangerous.
 
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All along? Or just in that quote? I knew you were having a dig in that quote, but I've also seen people happily go along with paying extra for something that has no reason not to be standard anymore, which makes it harder to tell if people are kidding.

I can kind of see the point of Online Pass provided it doesn't screw people who share the same console. I can kind of see the point in this for people obsessed by more than two EAS titles. But I'm not sure EA have enough in reserve to warrant that fee, in the way that PS Plus has pretty much paid for itself well within a year for me.
 
I agree with a lot of whats been said earlier.

I used to love PES but really disliked 2008 and 2009. It was then that I switched to FIFA. I found 08 to be an enjoyable experience despite the response issues and I also found FIFA 09 really good too. However Konami started to go in the right direction again with PES 2010 and in comparison to FIFA 10 which I thought was a bit of a flop I have now returned back to PES.

However I did play FIFA 11 a lot during the first month and found it to be quite fun and a definite improvement over FIFA 10. That was until I delved deeper into the single player game modes which turned out to be a bit of a mess. I'm more excited by Konami's new approach and I eagerly await PES 2012 but its always interesting to see what EA will do too.
 
romagnoli said:
All along? Or just in that quote? I knew you were having a dig in that quote, but I've also seen people happily go along with paying extra for something that has no reason not to be standard anymore, which makes it harder to tell if people are kidding.
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Well I was being sarcastic when implying it would be acceptable for EA to charge for something that should be in the game as standard (ie a working career mode that's built on and added to year after year and not having features stripped one year and put back the next year as if we should be grateful for that, as currently happens). The sad truth is however that as career mode is the only mode I play I would pay extra to get a "proper" career mode, whether that means more money for a DLC or more money for a football fusion version (ie buying Fifa Manager to add into Fifa).
 
wabak said:
Does this go here?

easub.jpg


ea3.jpg


ea4.jpg


erm..
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WTF????

Creation center will be payable on fifa 12? That´s ridiculous, they add a new feature just to charge for it in the future. Soon they will be charging for clubs, carrear mode, squads updates, etc...

I went back playing Fifa 08 that is the only fifa version with a little "soul" still on it, not a game to make profit only.
 
They'll probably begin releasing 'base' versions of all their sports titles soon. And then charging for modes that don't fit that base. CM could very well be a pay mode, since online seems to be their big thing now.
I don't think this subscription shit is going to be good for anyone but EA.
 
Re: FIFA 12

wabak said:
David Rutter, Line Producer for FIFA 12, promised a "revolutionary year for FIFA... especially in the gameplay department." Rutter wouldn't expand on what kind of revolution was coming.
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Wheels revolve. Probably just means they're adding back in some features that they took out a couple of years back.

Since they developed their excellent new engine, Rutter's involvement has ensured they get less and less out of it. There's clearly the potential for a great football game in there but his direction has resulted in an increasingly simplistic, arcade experience.

The game now reminds of Sensi Soccer...simplistic, high speed, aracde football that belongs in 1995. Except Sensi had a better career mode and more varied pitch surfaces and weather effects.
 
Re: FIFA 12

winston said:
Wheels revolve. Probably just means they're adding back in some features that they took out a couple of years back.

Since they developed their excellent new engine, Rutter's involvement has ensured they get less and less out of it. There's clearly the potential for a great football game in there but his direction has resulted in an increasingly simplistic, arcade experience.

The game now reminds of Sensi Soccer...simplistic, high speed, aracde football that belongs in 1995. Except Sensi had a better career mode and more varied pitch surfaces and weather effects.
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I remember the training mode with the ability to have practice matches, do set pieces, take free kicks with a wall etc. was regarded as a "new" feature by EA for FIFA 10... When pretty much the exact same thing had been present in all of the PS2 versions I remember.

I can see EA just playing it safe for the remainder of the current generation, they know all too well that their currect formula sells well, only when the next consoles are released and EA have to start from scratch again may they have a chance to not make the same mistakes...
 
It's a given that EA will play safe for the rest of the current consoles' life span. Why would you rock the boat and make sweeping changes to the game? It doesn't make business sense.
 
Depends what we mean by playing safe and not making sweeping changes. Although there are many flaws that hinder my enjoyment at the moment, I also believe that it's a few sensible design decisions and careful re-balancing away from being a very good football game. Does removing auto-tackle count as a sweeping change? Seems to me like there's plenty of little things that could make all the difference. Stuff that is not necessarily technology-intensive.

Similarly, it's more than possible to add depth to the game without making it any less accessible. I just hope they realise that.
 
nerf said:
Depends what we mean by playing safe and not making sweeping changes. Although there are many flaws that hinder my enjoyment at the moment, I also believe that it's a few sensible design decisions and careful re-balancing away from being a very good football game. Does removing auto-tackle count as a sweeping change? Seems to me like there's plenty of little things that could make all the difference. Stuff that is not necessarily technology-intensive.

Similarly, it's more than possible to add depth to the game without making it any less accessible. I just hope they realise that.
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I mean EA are unlikely to go for the all-out sim approach many of us want for fear of upsetting their core audience. I agree, small changes could make all the difference but are they prepared to make them, or instead take the easy way out and just bolt-on another mode and say 'look what's new for FIFA 12!'
 
Jamezinho said:
I mean EA are unlikely to go for the all-out sim approach many of us want for fear of upsetting their core audience. I agree, small changes could make all the difference but are they prepared to make them, or instead take the easy way out and just bolt-on another mode and say 'look what's new for FIFA 12!'
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The problem is the current FIFA developing team don't actually know what a football simulation is. In fact people like Rutter believe FIFA 11 was a football simulation and I remember him saying he was proud to take FIFA from an arcade era to a simulation video game.

Also the current game engine in FIFA is flawed. Unlike PES, it is really not engineered for freedom at all. To say the least, ball movement with relation to player reactions and animations needs to change as right now it is very very scripted (hence why people feel FIFA plays smoothly and PES doesn't).
 
danyjr said:
The problem is the current FIFA developing team don't actually know what a football simulation is. In fact people like Rutter believe FIFA 11 was a football simulation and I remember him saying he was proud to take FIFA from an arcade era to a simulation video game.

Also the current game engine in FIFA is flawed. Unlike PES, it is really not engineered for freedom at all. To say the least, ball movement with relation to player reactions and animations needs to change as right now it is very very scripted (hence why people feel FIFA plays smoothly and PES doesn't).
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Agreed about FIFA's current team. They're wasting a great engine.

Certainly don't agree that PES is more free and less scripted. FIFA 09 and 10 had more freedom than FIFA11, they've just chosen to tone it right down (ie. Rutter killing a game with great potential). PES is every bit as scripted, but has a far less developed AI model which spends far too much time being unaware of where the ball is. And Seabass's philosophy of smothering the game with scripts is all too apparent. He'll never change.
 
I've been playing Fifa 09 today and to be honest i still enjoy it so much more than 10 + 11 combined. Serious regression has happened in Fifa and Fifa 09 wasn't anywhere near perfect to be with but compared to 10 + 11 it is still more enjoyable. Perhaps we are actually seeing Rutter's vision more so now in comparison to 09 which was his first game and had more things in common with 08's slower less frantic gameplay.

Still though, playing against the CPU isn't exactly fun and the game isn't exactly that great but it's by far so much less frustrating than the recent additions. I could probably play this with a human opponent and have fun as long as it was on semi, whereas i don't want to go anywhere near 10 or 11.

Postives about 09 that strike me compared with the more recent games
+ Assisted through balls aren't cheap
+ I play on Semi for Shooting, crossing and passing. It's still not easy. With the newer games semi basically feels like assisted.
+ It's slightly slower on the default speed setting
+ Secondary press isn't an automatic tackle
+ Tall players aren't instantly strong.
+ It's not such a midfield tackle fest - presumably because players strength hadn't been upped at this point.
+ Speedy players can get away from defenders
+ Soundtrack
+ I've seen bad first touches
+ Players aren't stupidly responsive i.e turning
+ Harder to get chances to score (with semi that is). Generally i get much lower scorelines. Unlike Fifa 10 where it was only superhuman GKs who stopped scorelines being overly ridiculous. I used to run a Fifa website with my friend and games between us were noticably lower scoring than when we switched to Fifa 10 to add to this.
+ Injuries happen
+ CPU scored an overhead kick
+ Misplaced passes happen
+ You still don't get enough time to be able to evaluate things in the midfield but it's definitely not on 10/11's level.

Negatives
- Assisted shooting sucks, i haven't even bothered with it. So easy to finesse it in (i remember Julio Cruz basically never missing in the box). Inherent problem in all Fifas though, not just 09.
- Floaty ball physics. 11 is much better in this respect.
- AI sucks at attacking. ALL GOALS COME FROM CROSSES! No over-exaggeration.
- Defending isn't very tight, it's dealable though albeit in a less than realistic way, you have to play it as a video game in that respect.
- If i remember correctly you can exploit formations like 5-0-5 very easily.
- Winning the ball by timing my run from an opponents Goal kick pass is simple.
- Losing the ball by mistiming my goal kick is simple.
- You can win the ball by slide tackle straight into an opponent head on. This is the same in all Fifas too, PES punishes you for reckless challenges like this.
- Crosses need to be mastered (i've put this in both) because you can't zing the ball across the pitch. It's always floaty.
- Passes are aimed directly at your player even if said passer knows there is directly an opposition player in the way. PES passes to the side if it senses such a thing, even know in FIFA this is still an issue.
- Attackers runs aren't as intelligent as 11

Still playing so i'll add more to this when i feel the need to
 
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09 lasted me the entire year. I'd estimate that I spent more hours with that game than I have with 10, WC & 11 put together.
 
09 had the best online Clubs mode too - every player rated 85, no "Virtual Pros" so the teams were somewhat balanced (no teams full of giants/midgets) and the gameplay was somewhat less arcadey than 10 (still very much unrealistic).
 
Lami said:
Every game must be scripted though, doesn't it? Else how will they operate?
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With integrity would be a good starting point.

If Seabass wrote a racing game, it would be the sort of racing game that tried to be a genuine simulation.

But if you were winning the race, the AI would be given an artificial speed boost, defying the laws of physics that your car has to adhere to.

And as your car begins to suffers tyre and break wear, the AI cars would not.

And then, if your still winning late in the race, the cpu would start to occassionally take over control of your steering.

And if your car and an AI car collide, your car would always spin off and receive damage and loss of performance, whereas the AI car would stick to the track like glue and its performance would never be hindered.

There are racing games out there which do precisely these things (except the steering thing). And then there are other racing games, ones with integrity, that do not.
 
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I do know what you're talking about. Thing is though, how do programmers go about creating a balanced game, and at the same time a very intelligent AI, without resorting to what people call "cheating"? I'm not saying I like it. It gets on my nerves most of the time, but I make myself believe its ok because it's only artificial.

I think its a tough task really, trying to create a human-like AI is almost impossible imo. You have to take into account perfecting it yet at the same time taking into account humans make mistakes. It's quite complicated..
 
nerf said:
09 lasted me the entire year. I'd estimate that I spent more hours with that game than I have with 10, WC & 11 put together.
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+1

Actually, both 08 and 09 lasted me the entire year, while each edition since has had a shorter life-span than the one before it.

The lesson, for me, is that progress and technical improvements made in various areas throughout the game does not guarantee a better overall gaming experience.

Hopefully this so called "Revolution" that EA is already hyping FIFA 12 to be will mean a revolution in the overall experience rather than many mini-revolutions sprinkled throughout the game, so that the quality of the sum matches or, like 08 and 09, even exceeds the quality of its individual parts.
 
Lami said:
I do know what you're talking about. Thing is though, how do programmers go about creating a balanced game, and at the same time a very intelligent AI, without resorting to what people call "cheating"? I'm not saying I like it. It gets on my nerves most of the time, but I make myself believe its ok because it's only artificial.

I think its a tough task really, trying to create a human-like AI is almost impossible imo. You have to take into account perfecting it yet at the same time taking into account humans make mistakes. It's quite complicated..
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Human AI by itself is almost impossible to create, there's just too many variables to be considered! Let alone programming that into a computer game and ESPECIALLY a football game.

Even the most advanced robot has issues 'seeing' and recognizing basic shapes and acting on them, compare that to a human. well.. there is no fair comparison really.

I don't mind cheating. I expect it, it has to happen! It's about how it's balanced is the key!
 
I think the revolutionary step will be that they'll actually fix a bug or two before release.

The wife told me last night that Zynga had poached a top exec from EA who used to work for MS, I was gutted when I found out it wasn't Peter Moore :(
 
The revolutionary next step will be barely noticeable from previous games. Just like the 'revolutionary' way that altitude was supposed to affect gameplay in their last World Cup game. According to EA before release, playing at hight altitude stadiums would suit teams like Argentina or Peru but make teams like England suffer extreme stamina loss, and force players to play differently, depending on the altitude.

Revolutionary indeed, were it not for the fact that it's questionable whether the 'feature' even existed at all, for all the impact it actually had on the game. I seem to recall Rooney sprinting around like a maniac high in the Peruvian mountains.....

Then there was the revolutionary personality plus, which to me extends to placing certain players into two catergories from the norm - those who can dribble quickly, and those who are good in the air. That's the only noticeable difference that revolutionary feature seemed to add.
 
I really doubt there will be something revolutionary, but one can always hope there is some truth in it. Hopefully it's not a gimmick with Kinect and Move just so they can claim to be the first football game using it, hence a revolution in football games! Maybe it's just more aware AI that he talked about earlier or the fact that they try to remove all the "resets" in throw ins and corners and such. Screen might blink if you want to speed up, but maybe not resetting positions but instead calculating where they would actually have had time to run to in the simulated time frame. That too might not have been done before and could be claimed to be revolutionary if you're desperate enough.
 
High altitude in the world cup game affected stamina significantly...
Low stamina in the world cup game was poorly modelled, as with all Fifa to date...
 
Placebo said:
High altitude in the world cup game affected stamina significantly...
Low stamina in the world cup game was poorly modelled, as with all Fifa to date...
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That's exactly my point - if low stamina, even at high altitude, didn't have any effect on the gameplay at all then the whole feature didn't work like EA claimed. I suppose EA would argue, in typical fashion, that it was a proper 'feature' because high altitude made stamina go down quicker. Just a shame then that it had absolutely no impact whatsoever on the way you'd need to play the game. This is really what I mean, features bumped up by EA that don't really 'do' anything. An England player sprinting around the pitch like a souped up Premier League match, at high altitude, non-stop for 90 minutes, stamina or no stamina, made a mockery of their 'revolutionary' new feature.
 
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