Football Manager 2017 [PC/TAB/MOB]

[Chris Davies]

It is great in this game, if you try and understand what went wrong in a game, you can usually fix it for the next....or next few games. obviously it doesnt always work and is trial and error, but it is great trying to work it out.

I wish I felt this way! (But I think that's due to playing as Tranmere way down in the Conference.)

I was winning by three goal margins for the first 4-5 games - then lost one, and since then, I haven't won a game and I can't see any reason for it.

I've got the defensive line set to be quite deep, but they totally ignore me (and have for 10+ games now) - nearly every goal the opposition scores is a ball over the top where the defensive line is about 30 yards off the half-way line. This is with every defender set to the most basic "stand off and hoof it when you get it" mentality...

After the unbelievable start I'm a bit lost as to what's going on, I'll sit and look at each goal we concede (and the build-up to it) and it's nearly always because the defenders don't do the things they're told to do.

From 1st to 7th (and that's struggling for a team that's expected to be top 3).

 

[bsmaff]

I was winning by three goal margins for the first 4-5 games - then lost one, and since then, I haven't won a game and I can't see any reason for it.

Have you tried any different formations? I find playing 4-1-2-2-1 works well on this version of FM.

I am enjoying the new version of FM, it is so much more difficult signing players.
They have tweaked the wage structure system so you can't offer higher wages and there is now a wage cap on most of coaching positions which makes signing coaches harder.

The game overall is pretty much the same but the changes I have noticed in signing players and staff have improved the experience quite alot overall IMO.

Right now I am currently managing Huddersfield after applying for new jobs when I realised taking Exeter out of L1 was going to be a mountain not a mole hill like it has been on previous FM's. Again this is due to the players available to sign and make it so much more difficult to progress through the leagues.

So after about 12/14 games I joined Huddersfield 20th in the Championship and have now managed to get them upto 7th with 9 games remaining and only 1 point out the play offs, so I reckon I will make the play offs this season.

Relying at the moment on their current squad and a few loan players, but using the same tactic as Exeter I seem to be doing well and keep going on little runs of 5/6 games unbeaten.

Will hopefully get promoted or near promoted and then next season take a new job for a rubbish Prem team or someone who had just been relegated.

 

[bsmaff]

Finished my 2nd Season on the game and got promoted to the Premiership with Huddersfield.

Wouldn't say I had an amazing season, just remained consistent. Won the majority of games, but lost to teams higher than me in the table that I would of expected to lose.
Finished the league in 5th place.

In the play-offs I won 4-1 at home to Cardiff and lost the away game 3-2, so went to the final 6-4 on aggregate.

But the Play-off final was a massive shock - Beat Swansea 6-0 to gain Promotion to the Premier League.
It was my biggest win of the season, and TBH was shocked with how well I played in the final.

Now time for the Premiership and hopefully not get relegated after only been given a budget of 20M, when most of my squad is loan players, so I expect next season to be a massive struggle and hopefully can keep some of my loanees.

 

[gerd]

I've bought the game, but i have barely touched it.
If i read the posts of Bobby and bsmaff, i'm a litle bit jealous...
I feel more like Chris when i play it...imo it is too difficult, but in all likelyhood i gave up too soon, perhaps i should give it another go...
This is IMO the most immersive game franchise ever, but it used to be better (= more for me, this is very subjective) 4 or 5 years ago...

 

[Chris Davies]

I've bought the game, but i have barely touched it.
If i read the posts of Bobby and bsmaff, i'm a litle bit jealous...
I feel more like Chris when i play it...

Ha, thanks Gerd! Yeah, I'm jealous too - I've never had that level of success in Football Manager, I've never achieved promotion in two successive seasons (even with different clubs) that I can remember - it certainly never feels easy to me... Maybe I'm not the tactician I thought I was...

I managed a (lucky) win last night and left it there, I didn't want to run before I could walk...

 

[bsmaff]

Tactics are something that you need to develop, and not just through playing the game.

Before I play a new version of Football Manager, I will build a few tactics 3/4 different ones mainly using the default formations then using holiday games with a few teams to see if any of the default formations 'overachieve'.
Man Utd
Southampton
Bournemouth
Stoke

I will then use that formation as a base for tweaking, I will make 3/4 different tweaks of the formation and then again run a couple more holiday games till again one formation over-achieves.

I will then start a game normally with Man Utd and use the over-archieving formation as base and then play up to Christmas tweaking said formation, when it starts performing to my expectations, I will then start a proper game and use that formation.

There are also plenty of guides and tactics to download and use on http://community.sigames.com

But the main thing is to develop a formation and work on it using default formations and holiday games before you jump in at the deep end without any knowledge on the match engine.

 

[Chris Davies]

Before I play a new version of Football Manager, I will build a few tactics 3/4 different ones mainly using the default formations then using holiday games with a few teams to see if any of the default formations 'overachieve'.

See that, to me, is a bit of a cheat - that's not using any football knowledge, that's just finding out in what way the engine is flawed (rather than the team you're playing) and then exploiting it! I don't see any point in playing to do that (same with downloading other peoples' tactics)!

I start off in the Conference and keep the save going no matter what, so that I'm learning as I go, as I would be in reality. It means a lot of swapping between, for example, long balls and short balls, and most of the time I don't really see any difference in terms of effectiveness (long balls mean constantly giving the ball away, but short passing results in exactly the same thing, just marginally less often).

I've gone through every player and set individual instructions, but my defenders refuse to hit short passes and constantly just hoof the ball straight to the opposition, my midfielders seem blind to good runs from the wingers, and my strikers have gone from top-scorers to rarely hitting the target (6.3 ratings every game), to the point where my wingers are the ones scoring our goals.

 

[bsmaff]

I suppose it could be seen as cheating, for me it speeds up the process of finding something that works.

I don't really have the time to mess around every game with creating a tactic.
I normally have a good idea as 4-1-2-2-1 has been a good formation on FM last few seasons now, but playing holiday games as least rule out playing dodgy formations.

So the formation I use now is the formation I would of used without using holiday games to test tactics, but the style of play, tempo and player instructions would of taken longer to do.

 

[bsmaff]

Graphics packs have now been updated:-

LAST UPDATED - 08/02/2017


FM 2017 Kits (05/02/17):-

http://tvirusservers.co.uk/downloads/Kits050217.rar

FM 2017 Faces:-

Complete Package Download:-
http://tvirusservers.co.uk/downloads/Faces.rar

Update to version v3:-
http://tvirusserver.co.uk/downloads/FacesUpdate3.rar

FM 2017 Logos:-

Metallic:

Complete Package Download:-
http://tvirusservers.co.uk/downloads/Logos.rar

Update to version 4:-
http://tvirusservers.co.uk/downloads/LogosUpdatev4.rar

TCM:

Complete Package Download:-
http://tvirusservers.co.uk/downloads/TCMLogos.rar

Update to version 2:-
http://tvirusservers.co.uk/downloads/TCMLogosUpdatev2.rar

Smooth:

http://tvirusservers.co.uk/downloads/SmoothLogos.zip

 

[Chris Davies]

Had another game last night (just one match, I don't tend to get through more than 2-3 seasons at most).

Through sheer concentration over the course of 40 minutes, I managed to get a draw (a bloody draw) managing Tranmere (9th) against Gateshead (6th), at home.

I had to really look through the pre-game data, change the formation to block their counters, set the full-backs and even a midfielder to man-mark...

Oh, that reminds me, question: Do you have to wait until kick-off to set man marking every time? If I go into the formation a day before the game, and edit the player instructions, the only marking option I see is the "tight marking" button - there's no way for me to actually turn marking on.

But yes, after changing formation, setting man-marking and altering a lot of players' instructions, I managed a decent 1-1 (though they had repeated chances through balls over the top, where the defensive line was ridiculously high, despite me setting it to the deepest setting and the lowest closing-down setting too, what the hell).

If I just pick a formation they're familiar with and press "go", I don't get a result, the players just aren't good enough...

 

[BobbyBox]

Yeah I am noticing it also, it can be a struggle at times.

In my Arsenal game I had a lot of feedback in early changes I made to the team depending on how goals were being scored against me and my changes seemed to work.

For instance I made Koscielny stay back and scoop up balls while Mustafi moved more forward to go for the tackle.

As soon as I made this change I started to play much better defensively as I was conceding a lot of goals.

I was playing very well and had Barcelona in my group which I matched and then got Real Madrid in the last 16 which I also did well against (They scored in the last minute in the second leg to go through). Both were high scoring games where I just went for it.

But then later in the season I was just terrible away from home, nothing I seemed to do would help which was frustrating.

I ended up 4th (Just snatched it on the last day from Man United), got knocked out of the FA cup and league cup early but managed to keep my job somehow. (I think because I kept the philosophies of the club going with exciting attacking footy and had some good results along the way.)

This season I got rid of loads of players (Giroud, Walcott, Cazorla, Elneny and a lot of others) and I brought in Gotze and lukaku. My team is looking much better.

Away from home I have Gotze as a false 9 with team on the counter and home I have lukaku as a supporting target man and it seems to be working well. I move Gotze back into a deep lying playmaker at home.

I also brought in Barkley and kept Wilshere after his loan from Bournemouth. So I have plenty of cover now.

Iwobi is playing well for me with Sanchez on the other side.

I keep playing with roles and positions a bit though and I am rotating my squad every few games to keep people fresh and happy.

Still enjoying it.

Funny at the end of the season Spurs and Liverpool were fighting for top spot, Liverpool needed to win away at Crystal Palace and they bottled it and lost 3-0, while Spurs won 1-0 to win the league. Same old Liverpool.

But Liverpool and Man United have started well with Arsenal. All unbeaten after 4 games ( beat Spurs 2-1 at home).

They have made Chelsea really weak in Football manager though, they came mid table last season and continue to do shit this season so far.

After this season, I will start a non-league game.

 

[Chris Davies]

But then later in the season I was just terrible away from home, nothing I seemed to do would help which was frustrating.

I got stuck in a very similar situation, and I lost a game I didn't think it was right to lose (I was 6th, they were 23rd).

So I did the old quit-without-saving - which I hadn't done up to that point, but this result I couldn't let stand.

Not just because of the difference in league positions, but because of the amount of effort I put into countering their players and their formation - seeing it work in terms of the statistics - seeing that the quality of my squad was miles better than theirs - and losing anyway.

Since then, I've replayed that game at least ten times, with different set-ups, just to try and understand what I'm doing wrong! But, every single time, I've lost. Every time. The best I've managed is holding them to 0-0 until the 92nd minute.

I've not gone back to it since. I spent from 8pm til midnight on it one night, just playing that one fixture, switching between full match and comprehensive match highlights, trying to understand why they win. I can finish the game with 15 shots to 3, with 65% possession, but never even draw.

I've not been so angry at the game in years, it's not enjoyable and it's not a simulation in that scenario. It's just a complete con - and if the only way to win is to download someone's custom formation etc. then what's the point?!

It seems like I'm being punished for being a no-reputation manager who chose to manage a team that's expected to win the league. We were winning games by 4+ goals in the first month or so, but then out of nowhere there was a loss and that was it. Two wins in eight games, up to this one.

I doubt if I'll go back to it now, I should have stuck with the iPad version...

 

[bsmaff]

Upload your tactic Chris and I will download it and have a look at it..

But replaying the same game 10 times and never getting a result there is something wrong there or you could even upload the savegame as should only be 30-50mb.

 

[Chris Davies]

Upload your tactic Chris and I will download it and have a look at it..

But replaying the same game 10 times and never getting a result there is something wrong there or you could even upload the savegame as should only be 30-50mb.

I'll upload it over the weekend if I remember, I did want to offer it up for someone to take a look at but I wasn't sure if there'd be any takers!

 

[bsmaff]

I'll upload it over the weekend if I remember, I did want to offer it up for someone to take a look at but I wasn't sure if there'd be any takers!

I have sent you a PM with the details for the FTP for my website just stick it in the folder named Chris and I will download it from there when you have done it.

 

[BobbyBox]

Yep ot is frustrating Chris.

I had a great formation that I used at the beginning of the season that worked well against the best teams. I did well against Barca, Man United, Spurs even Real Madrid later on. But the last two months in the league it just didnt work, even with teams much lower in the league having shitty seasons.

I only used that set up for away games for the bigger clubs to begin with. It isnt as if I was using it every game and the opposition teams should be able to figured it out.

But I am thinking maybe I changed a couple of things from the beginning and forgot to put it back the same way? I dont know, but it was really frustrating.

I was challenging for the league until my bad away days set it.....I suppose thats just Arsenal, I came 4th in the end so it was true to life :-P

 

[Topaz]

I got stuck in a very similar situation, and I lost a game I didn't think it was right to lose (I was 6th, they were 23rd).

So I did the old quit-without-saving - which I hadn't done up to that point, but this result I couldn't let stand.

Not just because of the difference in league positions, but because of the amount of effort I put into countering their players and their formation - seeing it work in terms of the statistics - seeing that the quality of my squad was miles better than theirs - and losing anyway.

Since then, I've replayed that game at least ten times, with different set-ups, just to try and understand what I'm doing wrong! But, every single time, I've lost. Every time. The best I've managed is holding them to 0-0 until the 92nd minute.

I've not gone back to it since. I spent from 8pm til midnight on it one night, just playing that one fixture, switching between full match and comprehensive match highlights, trying to understand why they win. I can finish the game with 15 shots to 3, with 65% possession, but never even draw.

I've not been so angry at the game in years, it's not enjoyable and it's not a simulation in that scenario. It's just a complete con - and if the only way to win is to download someone's custom formation etc. then what's the point?!

It seems like I'm being punished for being a no-reputation manager who chose to manage a team that's expected to win the league. We were winning games by 4+ goals in the first month or so, but then out of nowhere there was a loss and that was it. Two wins in eight games, up to this one.

I doubt if I'll go back to it now, I should have stuck with the iPad version...

Funnily enough, this is the only FM I tried after I think FM 2014 and I have the same issue. I won the league with Chelsea with 98 points and I regularly change my tactics and formation to achieved it and by carefully looking at my mistakes. However the next season, I finished the season with 61 points with the same team and I tried reloading the saves before the match and the outcome is the same. Heck I used a tool and injured the whole other team and they played with their U-21 squad and they still managed to beat me 4-1 with my world class players. So yeah. This is not my cup of tea because it's too RNG and pretty much some matches uses the same "seed" for the outcome generation. Aka it's no footie sim.

Edit: Apparently looking at the steam reviews, everyone seems to have the same issue.

 

[BobbyBox]

I am getting a bit annoyed by it now.

I know I am Arsenal :-P but always just after the new year, my team just finds it impossible to win or play well away from home, no matter who we play.

I am fighting Liverpool for second place and I played them at Anfield, they destroyed me. I had one shot off target the whole game. Nothing I did changed the match.

At home earlier in the season I think I beat them 2-0 with basically the same players. I was fighting with Man United up until the end of Jan, but because of my away form it is all slipping away big time, now I am about 7points behind them. Before this point my away form was great and reporters would always ask me about how good I was away from home.

Suddenly we just play shit. Very frustrating.

 

[Topaz]

Hey guys. Just to let you know, I am enjoying the Football Manager Touch way more than the actual FM 17. Seems like they use different algorithm to generate match outcome.

 

[Chris Davies]

Hey guys. Just to let you know, I am enjoying the Football Manager Touch way more than the actual FM 17. Seems like they use different algorithm to generate match outcome.

Yeah, last year's FM Touch was brilliant, but like an idiot I sold the iPad and bought the full PC version to enjoy having more control over everything instead. Stupid mistake - really struggling to enjoy it.

 

[bsmaff]

I have finished another season now on FM, so I will have a look at your save game today Chris and see if there is any immediate problems with your formation and then make some changes and see if I can win the game your having issues with.

 

[Chris Davies]

I have finished another season now on FM, so I will have a look at your save game today Chris and see if there is any immediate problems with your formation and then make some changes and see if I can win the game your having issues with.

Cheers and good luck...

 

[bsmaff]

Cheers and good luck...

Played your game 5 times quickly this evening..

All with different formations:-
Your Formation:-
Lost 1-0

My Usual Formation:-
Won 1-0

Played a very narrow 4-3-3:-
Drew 1-1

Played 5-3-2:-
Drew 0-0

Tweaked your formation with the following:-

The result:-

 

[bsmaff]

Played another 2 games this morning and made it 3 in 3:-

 

[bsmaff]

I will have a look into potentially why your tactic was failing later today, as on initially impressions the players were all happy with the roles they were playing within the tactic.

However your playing attacking but have your defence sitting deep which seems odd.
Your also playing the ball out from defence when your players are probably not capable of playing the ball out from the back and this is probably causing a lot of defensive errors.
Also working the ball into the box is about playing patient football and creating the killer ball, which again without very high creative stats wouldn't really work, as well as this you are instructing your players to play with a lot of width when your also trying to play through balls into the box, which I would think means you would need to play a narrow formation.

In my experience though with FM in the pass never works playing Attacking and always normally ends in defeat and playing attacking away from home is normally suicide, and if your favourites for the game then Control is the highest setting you should ever really go.

I am also concerned that whilst I was playing the save game is massive lack of squad depth, there isn't enough cover in the main positions, although have not looked at the budget of your team you can normally get loan players for free. So this would massively improve squad depth and not having some players on late 80's early 90's fitness on match days.

 

[Chris Davies]

However your playing attacking but have your defence sitting deep which seems odd.

The reason for that is that the team are usually much more capable than the opposition, and I found that without specifically going on the attack, they just don't move the ball quickly enough and create enough chances.

But the defence... My God, how I hate my fucking defence.

Almost every single goal I concede is a long ball to a lone striker who runs all the way to the goal and scores, and that's with the defensive line set to deep. So I see no alternative!

Your also playing the ball out from defence when your players are probably not capable of playing the ball out from the back and this is probably causing a lot of defensive errors.

The reason for this is because there are far more instances of the defenders smashing the ball straight to the opposition, which repeatedly leads to us conceding, than the defenders trying to keep possession. I don't want them repeatedly giving the ball away - but setting them to play the ball out doesn't seem to make much difference either, for the time being (they choose to smash it anyway).

Also working the ball into the box is about playing patient football and creating the killer ball, which again without very high creative stats wouldn't really work, as well as this you are instructing your players to play with a lot of width

The reason for the "work the ball into the box" is similar to the defenders - without that selected, players tend to just hit it directly forward all the time, and it gets us nowhere. I'm not asking them to be overly creative, it's more about "if you're not sure about the pass, don't hit it" - maybe "retain possession" is a better way of doing that?

I am also concerned that whilst I was playing the save game is massive lack of squad depth, there isn't enough cover in the main positions, although have not looked at the budget of your team you can normally get loan players for free.

The budget is zero until January - I looked at loan players but the quality is generally too poor. I've signed a few free players, but I'm always on the lookout for more!

Cheers for the look and the advice, I'll have to work on the tactics with the above in mind. The 4-1 you got is what I would consider to be a realistic result given the gap in quality (and league positions)!

 

[Chris Davies]

Very quick update...

Tweaked your formation with the following:-

The result:- (4-1 win)

I picked up the laptop last night to try again, and used these instructions - but still set the defence to play short passes in order to stop them gifting possession to the opposition all the time, and also switched "retain possession" on and off to try and encourage less "hoofing".

I drew 1-1. Yes, it's an improvement, but, here's the thing. In my post above, I mentioned that if I don't set the defensive line to "deeper" or "deepest", I concede crap goals where the defensive line is way too high and lets in a lone striker who runs straight for 40-60 yards and scores a goal.

That's exactly what happened. They lumped it to the striker, who was in the middle of our half, and the nearest defender just jogged next to him while he ran off to score (I even leave the better defender - Steve McNulty - on the bench because I know he can't keep up, but it makes no difference).

The equaliser was just a hopeless punt from the halfway line, which happened to meet the head of the striker, on the edge of the area, and the goalkeeper was way out of position. It was a crap goal - and that's the only goal that my supposedly good team (for the league) can ever score.

So what I learn from this is... If I don't set my defensive line deeper, I concede. But if I do that, there's a gap between the defenders and the midfield, so the short passes are more difficult. If I switch that instruction off, they will be under no fucking pressure whatsoever and smash the ball to the opposition, who - might I add - pass the ball around fucking beautifully despite being a Conference team (which is what I was aiming for previously with "work the ball into the box" - I'd love to know if the opposition has that instruction set).

I'm a big Football Manager fan and I'm the first to say "it's your tactics" to someone who's having no joy, but after enjoying the game initially, I just don't find this realistic, let alone fun.

EDIT: Played another game, same goal conceded, same result.

I've tried to upload a highlights package but for some reason A) it's jerky as hell, and B) it doesn't include my equaliser.

But at least it shows the same goal I concede over and over and over again.

Spoiler

 

[god84]

Funnily enough, this is the only FM I tried after I think FM 2014 and I have the same issue. I won the league with Chelsea with 98 points and I regularly change my tactics and formation to achieved it and by carefully looking at my mistakes. However the next season, I finished the season with 61 points with the same team and I tried reloading the saves before the match and the outcome is the same. Heck I used a tool and injured the whole other team and they played with their U-21 squad and they still managed to beat me 4-1 with my world class players. So yeah. This is not my cup of tea because it's too RNG and pretty much some matches uses the same "seed" for the outcome generation. Aka it's no footie sim.

Edit: Apparently looking at the steam reviews, everyone seems to have the same issue.

I'm sorry but you must be either bad at the game, one season of unbeliveable success doesnt mean anything in FM, OR you just can't work out how to beat whatever team it was who beat you 4-1 with their U'21s.

I can honestly say i NORMALLY can work out how and why i lost. I just dont have the desire to constantly reload the game. I have done but i dont see the point.

This is the closest to footy sim that you will find on the market.

 

[god84]

Very quick update...


I picked up the laptop last night to try again, and used these instructions - but still set the defence to play short passes in order to stop them gifting possession to the opposition all the time, and also switched "retain possession" on and off to try and encourage less "hoofing".

I drew 1-1. Yes, it's an improvement, but, here's the thing. In my post above, I mentioned that if I don't set the defensive line to "deeper" or "deepest", I concede crap goals where the defensive line is way too high and lets in a lone striker who runs straight for 40-60 yards and scores a goal.

That's exactly what happened. They lumped it to the striker, who was in the middle of our half, and the nearest defender just jogged next to him while he ran off to score (I even leave the better defender - Steve McNulty - on the bench because I know he can't keep up, but it makes no difference).

The equaliser was just a hopeless punt from the halfway line, which happened to meet the head of the striker, on the edge of the area, and the goalkeeper was way out of position. It was a crap goal - and that's the only goal that my supposedly good team (for the league) can ever score.

So what I learn from this is... If I don't set my defensive line deeper, I concede. But if I do that, there's a gap between the defenders and the midfield, so the short passes are more difficult. If I switch that instruction off, they will be under no fucking pressure whatsoever and smash the ball to the opposition, who - might I add - pass the ball around fucking beautifully despite being a Conference team (which is what I was aiming for previously with "work the ball into the box" - I'd love to know if the opposition has that instruction set).

I'm a big Football Manager fan and I'm the first to say "it's your tactics" to someone who's having no joy, but after enjoying the game initially, I just don't find this realistic, let alone fun.

EDIT: Played another game, same goal conceded, same result.

I've tried to upload a highlights package but for some reason A) it's jerky as hell, and B) it doesn't include my equaliser.

But at least it shows the same goal I concede over and over and over again.

Spoiler

Chris, can you upload a screen shot of the tactic you are using and player roles please pal, i will do my best to help you.


Just so you guys know i have been an AVID CM/FM gamer since CM97/98 and have won almost all titles if not all titles at some point that i have been playing for.

 

[Chris Davies]

Chris, can you upload a screen shot of the tactic you are using and player roles please pal, i will do my best to help you.

Will do when I get in from work, thank you!

I actually managed a win last night - weird timing of your post actually, I've not played it since I last posted, but last night had another go after reading an article about how to put together a tactic based on your squad's overall attributes.

Switched to 3-4-3 with no closing down after discovering that, compared to the rest of the league, our strength, teamwork and work-rate are pretty low, but with fast passing (generally decent passers with good decision-making and pace).

Ended up winning 3-1, although... 24 shots (nearly all of them from outside the box, which annoys me), 9 shots on target, and all of the goals were complete luck, which really angers me.

The first was a deflected free kick, the second was a shot from 40 yards out (no build-up play involved), and the third was a tap-in after the keeper pushed it out to the striker.

Whereas their goal is the same goal the opposition always score - defence was too high up, so they did a long ball to a winger, who was halfway in my half, who ran for a second and did a long ball to a striker who was unmarked on the opposite side of the pitch, who hit the shot into a goal that was practically open (the keeper was practically on the sideline).

The ratings are always 6.8-7.0 too, the lack of effort is really frustrating.

Anyway, 3-1 victory, about fucking time!