PES 2013 Discussion Thread

Re: PES 2013 Discussion Thread .......

dannyfc2 said:
But that is completely at odds with your opinion on Team Styles and Team Training in ML, surely? You've just said you'd prefer to mould the team by selecting the individuals that suit that style of play, based on their intrinsic traits. How does that fit in with the collective stamping of 'PHYSICAL/SPEED' training and team styles that are implemented regardless of the personnel at your disposal?

The way I see it, in real life you can instruct a player what to do, whether or not he performs that role is another matter. I should be able to tell Riquelme to track back at every opportunity, even if that turns out to be fairly ineffective strategy. The arrows were excellent feature as it allowed you to sculpt the manner of your attacking play to your own tastes. You could decide whether you had players peeling in and cutting inside, or drift out and standing on the byline.

It also allowed you to shift the focus onto defensive awareness when you want to. Look at Bosingwa for instance. By definition he's very offensively minded, bombing forward at every opportunity. Did he do this against Barcelona? No, he sat back at every instance, as that is the gameplan Chelsea had set out.
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Not really, your only enhancing the statistical side of what they are already good at. That's how it works.

As for Boswinga, your can change your team tactics to lower his own personal traits simply by tactically reducing Player Support.
 
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ccshopland said:
I can understand those that prefer the arrow system to virtually MAKE someone do something defensively or aggressively, and I backed this fully wanting the old system of the old PES games.

However, on reflection now, I've changed my mind on the issue and am strongly in favour of the Jimmy way, that is to build a team analysing player traits both good and bad. I think this adds a layer to the game.

If you think logically about it, players may be shaped into a tactical framework over time, but their core attributes are in their DNA come what may. Take David Luiz for example, the lad just can't help himself driving forward which is great. But this should be player stats and cards influencing him. Another example you can't/shouldn't be able to 'just make' a player who's DNA dictates to him that he should play on the shoulder of defenders and be right on the fringes of offside all game long, to suddenly play like a world class SS, dropping off into midfield.

As Jim says, I can understand the clamour for it, but for me now it adds just more depth to the transfer windows that I can whittle down my search to specific traits and cards to fit into the team, instead of just buying any old body and sticking arrows on them.
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I think both sides of the argument are right, the individual traits of the players should be very important but the ability of the coach to order players what they do on the pitch is also important and realistic.

So the best solution would be to allow for the coache's orders like in the old PES-games but to build it in that way that ordering a player with defensive traits to be more offensive would result in worse performance on the pitch.

Just look how this belgian (or was it one from the netherlands) coach ordered the player's in the turkey's national team to play on positions and style that were not the strong traits of the players and the result was chaos. If one wants to create a mess in the game with the team, it should be possible.
 
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Yep, football isn't completely organic whereby the manager/coach leaves the players to play the their strengths and just get on with it. Players need to be organised and instructed individually as well as a group. What a player is required to do will vary depending on the opposition.
 
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Which leads me to this, we should have a "discipline" stat. This would add another realistic dimension to it. Player's DNA + Discipline vs Manager's orders. Obviously the higher the stat, the more the player tends to act on a manager's orders, and the lesser it is, more DNA comes into play, which may lead to disaster, unhappiness, something positive, etc.
 
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I think that could be incorporated into the Mentality stat Lami.
 
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Lami said:
Which leads me to this, we should have a "discipline" stat. This would add another realistic dimension to it. Player's DNA + Discipline vs Manager's orders. Obviously the higher the stat, the more the player tends to act on a manager's orders, and the lesser it is, more DNA comes into play, which may lead to disaster, unhappiness, something positive, etc.
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That already used to be in PES (on ps2) as it was formed due to a combination of stats like teamwork/mentality and some others. It's still in this game as of today but it's somewhat less pronounced (although somewhat unbalanced on ps2) i'd say. Also depends on team tactics and way of play.

I'm still in favor of giving players 'manual' instructions like for ex: the old arrow system but form/dna should play a bigger role. Because i sure as hell know how that system could be severely exploited on the ps2 system. For ex, Cordoba DMF with defensive arrow high and he was the best DMF in the game without any regards to his position/dna(stats).

Also things like this can add more immersion (for me personally it would) into campaigns like CL or ML, as you can mold the team more as to how you want the team to function as opposed to getting the 'perfect' player for each position. Like if you use a sub that has zero experience you can instruct him to solely do his job which is whatever as opposed to what he's supposed to do what he is good at. Just like we see in real life. Otherwise we wouldn't have the need for coaches.. well some might agree with that statement lol, but that's another discussion.

Team tactics, player stats, and individual settings per position or role (per player) would be so much better. The combination of individual player stats and team tactics aren't really satisfying enough as it is right now, because to me it feels like every year they remove one layer and replace it. For better or worse, regardless i want more layers, that all reflect on each other in a balanced manner. It can be done.
 
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I feel some middle ground is in order. Telling a player to cut inside shouldn't mean that he does it regularly, or as well as someone for whom it's natural; but at the same time you should be able to tell a player to stay wide when they usually cut in, with varying success based on the player.

All it is, really, is a player specific equivalent of certain team sliders.

However it's important that any system that allows instructions like this should be quick, easy and fully visible at all times. The great thing about the team sliders is that they're all encompassing at the moment, so you can make sweeping changes in a couple of seconds. When the instructions get too granular, too fiddly, then it slows the whole process down (online for example) and takes away from how powerful the formation screen can be. A lot of the effects of arrows can be achieved just by moving the player further up or back; all that's needed is the same sort of ability to communicate the need for diagonal runs.

If it went the arrow route, maybe just hold X and move the left stick the direction you want the runs made, then release X. Maybe the suitability of the run could be shown using red, green and purple like the form arrows? Just a thought. As long as whatever is done is easy to digest and quick to use, and the tactics are purely advisory rather than literal, I'm open to anything.
 
Re: PES 2013 Discussion Thread .......

Jamezinho said:
Yep, football isn't completely organic whereby the manager/coach leaves the players to play the their strengths and just get on with it. Players need to be organised and instructed individually as well as a group. What a player is required to do will vary depending on the opposition.
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Will you be applying for the Spurs job in the summer?
 
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tobi said:
Will you be applying for the Spurs job in the summer?
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Hehe, yeah. Harry is no tactician that's for sure.

Rom's got it spot on. It's important to be able to form a strategy both on a team level and an individual level so there needs to be a middle ground.

I really do miss the player arrows and I don't see why they couldn't be reintroduced into the current tactics menu. It's just another layer of control that should be available for fine tuning tactics and reacting to the opposition. For instance I might not want both my fullbacks to bomb forward or both to sit deep. Having the option to tell one to make forward runs and the other to sit deep and mark a dangerous winger is an example of something I miss.
 
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romagnoli said:
I feel some middle ground is in order. Telling a player to cut inside shouldn't mean that he does it regularly, or as well as someone for whom it's natural; but at the same time you should be able to tell a player to stay wide when they usually cut in, with varying success based on the player.

All it is, really, is a player specific equivalent of certain team sliders.

However it's important that any system that allows instructions like this should be quick, easy and fully visible at all times. The great thing about the team sliders is that they're all encompassing at the moment, so you can make sweeping changes in a couple of seconds. When the instructions get too granular, too fiddly, then it slows the whole process down (online for example) and takes away from how powerful the formation screen can be. A lot of the effects of arrows can be achieved just by moving the player further up or back; all that's needed is the same sort of ability to communicate the need for diagonal runs.

If it went the arrow route, maybe just hold X and move the left stick the direction you want the runs made, then release X. Maybe the suitability of the run could be shown using red, green and purple like the form arrows? Just a thought. As long as whatever is done is easy to digest and quick to use, and the tactics are purely advisory rather than literal, I'm open to anything.
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But it should be realistic. Can a coach change the individual tactical tendencies of the players during a match? Or can he do so only before the match and during the halftime?

I really don't know how it's done in real matches, so if anyone could enlighten me how the coach and when he changes the tactical setup of his team during a match.
 
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henrys hand said:
But it should be realistic. Can a coach change the individual tactical tendencies of the players during a match? Or can he do so only before the match and during the halftime?

I really don't know how it's done in real matches, so if anyone could enlighten me how the coach and when he changes the tactical setup of his team during a match.
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He can shout at them!

Or speak to the captain.
 
Re: PES 2013 Discussion Thread .......

Jamezinho said:
He can shout at them!

Or speak to the captain.
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He can also spend days, weeks, months talking to his players about different systems for different eventualities. I don't think any limitations should be applied to when you can make tactical changes. No point making changed for the sake of convolutions the experience.
 
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Lami said:
And the one-touch passing should definitely be toned down. Only players with high passing tech and accuracy should be able to pull it off successfully. This would heavily slow the game down.
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Dunno on 0 assist its pretty hard to pull off. Also what about teams like swansea who can actually play it.
 
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I hope the passing freedom they speak about is really well implemented in PES 2013. There's still a few occassions when you fully charge a pass and it goes to someone close by instead of the player you intended. So if they can allow us where to put the ball and then leave it up to stats to determine how well the ball goes there then I'd be happy.

Agree with some of the discussion above - a coach can instruct his players how to play but how well they listen or how long they can implement it during a game should be determined by stats not purely by arrows. If your midfielder doesn't drop back and defend and you want him to, the defensive awareness stat should be able to increase over time with the correct training.
 
Re: PES 2013 Discussion Thread .......

zeemeister said:
Dunno on 0 assist its pretty hard to pull off. Also what about teams like swansea who can actually play it.
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They can, but that doesn't mean they can do it perfectly almost every time passing blindly and from awkward positions. I'm on about the CPU btw.
 
Re: PES 2013 Discussion Thread .......

dannyfc2 said:
Being able to instruct attacking movement and defensive responsibility would be a start considering it was present in PES3. :BORED:

arsenal+tactics.jpg
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On holdiay atm and playing PES2011 on my psp, which uses this system. It had a £ajpr flaw in that you could make a player run into channels that is not part of his game IRL. So in the ML there is no reason to buy the bombarding wing back. You can stick a CB in there and he does a good job of it. PES2012 does a better job of making you buy a player that has this in his skill set.

@Lami I get you mate. The worst is when thEy do the pass, pass, pass, pass, shoot in under 30 seconds and the only way you get the ball is picking it out the net.
 
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That seems a bit toned down since the patch. The speed of passing isn't as bad as before but they still need to get rid of the uber human passing. Enjoying the balance of gameplay post-patch though. Hopefully they can build on it further for PES 2013.
 
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Something that needs to be in the ML for PES13

If you have a player on loan (ie Diego at A Madrid) he should leave at the end of the season or you should be asked to buy him.

At the moment on loan players are treated as squad players - and you can sell your loan players which is crazy.
 
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Talking about improvements for 2013, I've always thought the substitutions are very unreal. I mean, it's ok you want to replace a player, but the man on the bench sould take his time to warm up, otherwise he'll be in injury risk.

So, the way I see it, before you can make any substitution you should have to take your men to warm up (just 3 of them, of course); and, if you have to change a player for any unavoidable reason and have no man warming up, then the injury chances may increase.

PD: the arrows, I still miss them. Actually, never understood the new system.
 
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geeg said:
Talking about improvements for 2013, I've always thought the substitutions are very unreal. I mean, it's ok you want to replace a player, but the man on the bench sould take his time to warm up, otherwise he'll be in injury risk.

So, the way I see it, before you can make any substitution you should have to take your men to warm up (just 3 of them, of course); and, if you have to change a player for any unavoidable reason and have no man warming up, then the injury chances may increase.

PD: the arrows, I still miss them. Actually, never understood the new system.
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A 5 minute warm-up in a 90 minute match is 30 seconds in a 10 minute match. But you can go for huge portions of the game without the ball going out of play - you might try to make a 70th minute sub that doesn't take place till the 80th minute.

So to me it seems excessive and impractical to insist that subs warm up before coming on. Even FM doesn't insist on that.
 
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At least Konami should create some cutscenes for the substitution. Like it is now, without it, something is clearly missing, it's boring.
 
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Maybe watching a few warming up randomly every now and then is enough.
 
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:P

If it's in FL as an option then I don't mind. Just seems like something that might not work out as well in practice... Maybe when you choose to make a sub during a break in play, the sub isn't made until the next break so the sub can warm up?

I've always thought that, during stoppages in play (not when you've pressed Start, but things like throw-ins, goals or free kicks), the clock should keep going in real time, to add a subtle sense of urgency. The clock would be going so slowly that time wasting wouldn't have any effect, and the time elapsed could possibly be used to determine injury time.

Subs could perhaps have subtly reduced technical ability until they've had a few touches, unless they're a supersub? So a winger might need a couple or runs with the ball or crosses before they've caught up with the game. They'd still be faster and more energetic though.

It's be good to see some players throw a strop when subbed, with that carrying into their relationship with you in FL. I haven't really played FL this year so dunno if something like that's already in there.
 
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Just have a few random subs running up and down the touchlines or doing stretches by the corner flag every now and then.

It could be like that old guy in the suit who runs up and down behind the goals like he's shit himself.
 
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I hate cutscenes but I'd love real-time substitutions. So the camera just pans out, you see the player trot over and react (applaud fans/sulk), and the replacement just runs on and slots into position. Seamless.
 
Re: PES 2013 Discussion Thread .......

Lami said:
Maybe watching a few warming up randomly every now and then is enough.
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Yeah, the animations are already in the game, you can see them during free training.

I would like to see the red cross with stretchers!
and streakers and some hot chicks in the tribunes :P

It could be like that old guy in the suit who runs up and down behind the goals like he's shit himself.
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Hahahaha, my friends always say that!
 
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Re: PES 2013 Discussion Thread .......

Jimmy G-Force said:
Criminal :CONFUSE:
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I know. I have played some, but not much. Right now I want to play without stats edited for gameplay, but there doesn't seem to be a way to reset players to defaults. I don't want to completely wipe everything though as I have Chimps' kits and teams (though resetting stats would bugger up his anglo-celt championship), and uploading all those kit images takes bloody years. So I'm chiefly playing Libertadores 2012 when I do play.
 
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