PES 2013 Discussion Thread

Re: PES 2013 Discussion Thread .......

SteelHorse75 said:
Right. Simple request.

Make PES13 an out of the box game. Simple.

Take disc out of box, load it up and play. None of this tweak this, that, pinch your nipple, tickle your right gonad etc etc.

Just make it playable the minute I get it out the box.

Thats why the "kids" love fifa cos you dont have to know the depths of football to enjoy a game of football. My son and his mates are 9 and they dont even use sliders as they dont know what all that means. Yet they are on Fifa every day. Loving it.

I remember that list that WENB said last year when they said - adjust the colour, shrink the pitch, only play at night, use this, do that.

Im not saying it didnt improve it but who would know to do all that? people just want to fire up a game and play.

Thats why people love Fifa even though its souless. Its just easy to play out of the box
Click to expand...

Agreed to a certaint extent.

The game should be accessible from the start but not dumbed down. It should be easy to start but hard to master.

The phase where you first play the game and try to learn it (should take months) in order to master it should be enjoyable like it was during the PES-times.

Currently this learning-phase in PES 2012 is a chore and very unpleasant. In parts it has to do with you having to fight the game itself so that it would do what you expect it to do, players do silly things, playerswitching doesn't work reliable, goalkeepers are a joke... on top of it it looks and feels unpleasant, especially during the night-games which are the standard for the single-player-modi.

So in order to get that pleasantness back, Konami should work to a) make the game reliable, be it playerswitching, player-awareness or goalkeeper-reactions, after all we can control one-three players but it's hard to keep track of 11 players at once and to make sure they are rightly positioned and b) to make the game look and feel pleasant, ie. much better night-games-look and more and better animations for the players, so that one can feel a connection with the players at hand (individuality, presence...) and c) the standard-tactic-settings should be somewhat reasonable, realistic and fitting for the team at hand, but there should be always depth for those in the know to make it even better.
 
Re: PES 2013 Discussion Thread .......

Agreed I'm not into playing games like a mindless drone. Beginner should be like that but professional of world class difficulties harder. Been banging on about this for a while. How can you have world class difficulty with all assists on.
 
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Re: PES 2013 Discussion Thread .......

Treaser is awesome !!! And says much more than appears!
To see, you must listen ;) ....weather...
 
Re: PES 2013 Discussion Thread .......

henrys hand said:
Agreed to a certaint extent.

The game should be accessible from the start but not dumbed down. It should be easy to start but hard to master.

The phase where you first play the game and try to learn it (should take months) in order to master it should be enjoyable like it was during the PES-times.

Currently this learning-phase in PES 2012 is a chore and very unpleasant. In parts it has to do with you having to fight the game itself so that it would do what you expect it to do, players do silly things, playerswitching doesn't work reliable, goalkeepers are a joke... on top of it it looks and feels unpleasant, especially during the night-games which are the standard for the single-player-modi.

So in order to get that pleasantness back, Konami should work to a) make the game reliable, be it playerswitching, player-awareness or goalkeeper-reactions, after all we can control one-three players but it's hard to keep track of 11 players at once and to make sure they are rightly positioned and b) to make the game look and feel pleasant, ie. much better night-games-look and more and better animations for the players, so that one can feel a connection with the players at hand (individuality, presence...) and c) the standard-tactic-settings should be somewhat reasonable, realistic and fitting for the team at hand, but there should be always depth for those in the know to make it even better.
Click to expand...

Agree.
Its bad enough having to sit through game after game of unpleasantness to get it right then add that the game always looks half finished.
 
Re: PES 2013 Discussion Thread .......

fantastic teaser done with style, but we need more substance tho :) I wonder what *thunder KRAKOOM* sound is suggesting, I'm hoping for big surprises in gameplay, I mean like going full manual

if the game has quality of this announcement vid then we're in for a treat :]

I hope for a shockingly good stuff now, teaser is a sign that Konami quality might return.
 
Re: PES 2013 Discussion Thread .......

Nice trailer... about an announcement?

Or not? Take a look again at 25s, maybe I'm crazy but... that turn around Cristiano... is that real image or CG? is that a new and amazing engine? Maybe not it all but his face is strange, it feels unreal, you know, "uncanny valley" stuff
 
Re: PES 2013 Discussion Thread .......

ektorkeiko said:
the game stop selling at the beginning of january. fifa still selling superstrong. There is no konami DLC of any kind coming up hence they think they need to start marketing for the next game as soon as possible.

kinda desperate if u ask me.
Click to expand...

True. Fifa12 have the Euro2012 addition coming. Probably hoping people will not be tempted to try fifa12 just to get that and Stealing even more of Konami's ever diminishing followers.
 
Re: PES 2013 Discussion Thread .......

geeg said:
Nice trailer... about an announcement?

Or not? Take a look again at 25s, maybe I'm crazy but... that turn around Cristiano... is that real image or CG? is that a new and amazing engine? Maybe not it all but his face is strange, it feels unreal, you know, "uncanny valley" stuff
Click to expand...

Just looks like his face to me.

The question is.....What the hell is in the bag?
 
Re: PES 2013 Discussion Thread .......

that teaser is a joke...

"Talk is cheap, it's what happens on the pitch"

Is this self-mockery?
 
Re: PES 2013 Discussion Thread .......

SteelHorse75 said:
Agree.
Its bad enough having to sit through game after game of unpleasantness to get it right then add that the game always looks half finished.
Click to expand...

I have said it before, the people who are most evangelical about this years game took 6 months for them to get to this point. The game needs to be amazing straight away and have depth to learn over months
 
Re: PES 2013 Discussion Thread .......

Flaw3d Genius said:
That Messi pic is actually PES 11 But it's pointless comparing renders as they dont mean anything in terms of the actual game itself.
Click to expand...

true to an extent. What I will clarify is that it isn't famfabrik who produce the renders and even though it is a render, renders can be built from in game assets.

Flaw3d Genius said:
Just looks like his face to me.

The question is.....What the hell is in the bag?
Click to expand...

Messi's heid!
 
Re: PES 2013 Discussion Thread .......

what's that? storm? is that a weather hint? we can only dream
 
Re: PES 2013 Discussion Thread .......

Chimps-with-quiffs said:
I have said it before, the people who are most evangelical about this years game took 6 months for them to get to this point. The game needs to be amazing straight away and have depth to learn over months
Click to expand...

I felt the same way over the demos as i do now. I got over the initial defensive confusion due to the tweaked system during the demos. Granted there are stil things I've learnt and developed understanding of in the full game due to the natural depth of a PES game, it is to be expected, but it was an out of the box playable game for me, even with the minor niggles pre-patch.

Too many people are expecting the perfect football game everytime and are unwilling to overlook niggles that can be blown out of proportion, or managed to some extent. Some bigger problems can be emphasised obviously, but a lot of the bile is outrageously over the top. YES, it is possible to have fun with PES 2012 and it is not the WORST FOOTBALL GAME EVER MADE IN THE HISTORY OF VIDEOGAMES as some would have you believe (imo it is the one that comes closest to representing football). They fail to see the myriad of positives that the game is brimming with, already, out of the box.

To repeat/requote myself, all these below points are in PES 2012, without the flaws, and enable you, if you aren't overly fussy to enjoy the game.

-dribbling - u really feel the physics, momentum, weight shifting, inertia, leg placement to a greater degree and with more fluid animations
-refined interception/hold up play system from PES 2011 – less button presses than FIFA but once mastered more sophisticated and nuanced
-Both the above means Konami have delivered on the 1-on-1 battles, you feel a great balance between taking someone on or trying to stop them
-zero passing – semi-manual mix that includes stats
-Best AI movement and awareness in a football game
-Team types in Master League Online which encourage different ways of playing ('speed' can be countered) and their equivalent training types in ML offline
-More depth added to master league offline which is a hallmark of the series
-Obviously player individuality being a hallmark of the series
-Obviously tactical depth in setting your team up to play in any way you want being a hallmark of the series
Click to expand...

They were all out of the box too. As long as PES 2013 keeps these cores and adds new stuff, obviously addressing some major flaws and minor if they're really stringent I'll be happy.

As a side note, apart from 2008 I've seen progress in every PES game, like them or loathe them. Despite the criticism of their work on this generation of consoles compared to the PS2 days, it is easy to spot the development ideas being incorporated; in recent times right from the d-pad contextual dribbling and weighted ball physics of 2009.
 
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Re: PES 2013 Discussion Thread .......

Meh, accessibility = shallow gameplay IMO.

Even PES5 and 6 were slaughtered on forums by a vocal minority initially. I wouldn't want the game to click straight away, as Jimmy would attest, half the fun is learning the new nuances and techniques.

But I think the half the reason people were so pissed off initially was because the game was incomplete. Releasing the game with keepers in that state of unacceptable, and the disguising of the issue with those two horrible patches only worsened the game further. While the final version is indeed a decent game, it took such an effort to get there its no wonder people were put off before they reached it.

April seems so early. I don't know why they're hyping, what exactly have they got to show off? They should have just released a minimal interview or outline of what they intend to do this year. What direction theyre taking, what they'll be looking to rectify, what new features etc. etc.
 
Re: PES 2013 Discussion Thread .......

shorty alien said:
To repeat/requote myself, all these below points are in PES 2012, without the flaws, and enable you, if you aren't overly fussy to enjoy the game.
Click to expand...

I'd also strongly contest the validity of your appraisal of PES 12;

-dribbling - u really feel the physics, momentum, weight shifting, inertia, leg placement to a greater degree and with more fluid animations
Click to expand...

More fluid - yes, more sense of inertia - no. It's gone backwards from the previous year with removal of Acceleration/Agility, and the introduction of that really gimmicky 'speed burst'. The sense of pace is accurate, but they really failed to distinguish the differences in the weight and momentum from different players. The likes of Gattusso and Nesta are laughably agile.

-Both the above means Konami have delivered on the 1-on-1 battles, you feel a great balance between taking someone on or trying to stop them
Click to expand...

Disagree, there seems less skill and anticipation involved than in PES 2011 where you really had to plot out your movements.

-zero passing – semi-manual mix that includes stats
Click to expand...

One of my main complaints with the game. Not only has this eradicated the level-playing field online, the ambiguous implementation of any stat recognition is a massive step back. The likes of Xavi, Riquleme, D'Alessandro.... are nowhere near as masterful in passing as before. It really distorts the emphasis toward more pacey, tricky players and away from the technically gifted ones I mentioned.

-Best AI movement and awareness in a football game
Click to expand...

Would agree with this and is by far the biggest improvement over PES 11. Still yet to see the diagonal or dummy runs we were promised though...

-Team types in Master League Online which encourage different ways of playing ('speed' can be countered) and their equivalent training types in ML offline
Click to expand...

Then number on here that have given up playing online is testament to their cock-up of MLO. The system last year was adequate yet they made superstars even more obtainable, and the introduction of team types only reduces the presence of individuality further.

-More depth added to master league offline which is a hallmark of the series
Click to expand...

Disagree. The changes they've made are cosmetic, and only use to aggravate (sick of skipping repetitive cutscenes or ignoring nonsensical requests from players). Not only that, but they actually removed depth by getting rid of both individual training and any thorough search system.

-Obviously player individuality being a hallmark of the series
-Obviously tactical depth in setting your team up to play in any way you want being a hallmark of the series
Click to expand...

Again, as I said before, the removal of playing cards and stats has meant both passing and dribbling are less individualistic than before.


PES 12 has a lot going for it, but for every step forward it's taken two back IMO. I've mildly enjoyed it in bursts this year, particularly offline against the CPU (which I believe has improved in abundance). But it really is unacceptably inadequate in a number of areas, some of which are only down to some really questionable design decisions.
 
Re: PES 2013 Discussion Thread .......

I'd also strongly contest the validity of your appraisal of PES 12;
Click to expand...

It's all subjective, so what is valid to me may not be valid to you, obviously. Even though some may hate the game, others find numerous positives, and the only thing that annoys me is the tendency on this forum over the last few months on at the moment to vilify those that actually enjoy the game and find positives in it as accepting sub-standard gameplay, kissing the backsides of konami or simply becoming part of their pr machine.


More fluid - yes, more sense of inertia - no. It's gone backwards from the previous year with removal of Acceleration/Agility, and the introduction of that really gimmicky 'speed burst'. The sense of pace is accurate, but they really failed to distinguish the differences in the weight and momentum from different players. The likes of Gattusso and Nesta are laughably agile.
Click to expand...

The speed burst is not gimmicky, it happens in real life. Players can accelerate quickly from a standing start or even while mobile, the inclusion this year has actually left me wondering why it hasn't been implemented all this time in previous versions.


The dribbling remains an achievement for me, starting with PES 2009's d-pad contextual dribbling system, they have refined it with each version and arrived at a brilliant depiction of the art of dribbling. Dribbling really is an art with this game, I can minutely place my player's feet where ever I want with the well programmed footplanting, it is intuitive and I can feel weight shifts, momentum, leg placements, inertia, and even more with or without R2. With the better dribblers it is even more pronounced, just like in real life.

I don't know about you but I can feel the differences between players. People asked for more responsive players and they delivered. Pes 2011 does have more weight to the players but it hasn't gone completely from PES 2012, they are professional footballers, so there has to be some degree of professionalism. Gattuso and Nesta are slower and more cumbersome compared to some players, try ones like Mertesacker and you'll also feel it. Now whether they could do even more to further the differences is another point, but, it is a myth to say that all players control the same, I've personally noticed subtle and larger differences at play. Not all players control the same.


Disagree, there seems less skill and anticipation involved than in PES 2011 where you really had to plot out your movements.
Click to expand...

For me better and more fluid 360 movement, increased dribbling controls and intuitiveness plus refined defensive hold up play make for improved 1-on-1 situations.


One of my main complaints with the game. Not only has this eradicated the level-playing field online, the ambiguous implementation of any stat recognition is a massive step back. The likes of Xavi, Riquleme, D'Alessandro.... are nowhere near as masterful in passing as before. It really distorts the emphasis toward more pacey, tricky players and away from the technically gifted ones I mentioned.
Click to expand...

Zero passing is for me a triumph. I didn't want konami to go down the fifa route with pass assistance settings, Seabass had a 'freedom of passing' vision with 2011 but didn't fully realize it. I thinkg they've have achieved it with 2012''s zero passing, but chickened out and thought it would be too hard for the majority to have that one standard of free passing, so they added assist options in order to placate more casual fans and those who preferred more assistance. They should have kept it as zero, one system.

Ambiguous stat interpretation? I think what you said counts for assisted passing, where the stat differences are less, but not for zero! On zero at least, Xavi passes like Xavi, D'alessandro like D'alessandro, the better passers have more of an increase in accuracy and pass speed, with the likelihood of a good pass much greater. I can really use power selection and angles depending on foot placement and balls physics which can change in a split second to make amazing passes with the above, and I'm more confident I can pull them off due to their amazing passing stats.

They've combined this with the player's freedom in directing, but it is not too free, stats DO have a say in the nature of the pass otherwise you wouldn't need stats and all the skill would depend on the player alone, like it does in FIFA manual. You call it a massive step back, I call it a massive step forward. I can't go back and play the previous PES games now that I have tasted the combined freedom and stat based zero assistance passing of 2012.


Would agree with this and is by far the biggest improvement over PES 11. Still yet to see the diagonal or dummy runs we were promised though...
Click to expand...

Dummy runs happen to take away defenders, and diagonal runs happen also. You can even see them happening on the trailer demonstrations for the game, which shows in game footage. That is not just PR that was dropped for the full game, I have personally witnessed it happening. A lot of it is to do with team style settings that can be tweaked and adjusted like player support, also the individuality in stats, such as a player's attacking level and his teamwork stat, some cards such as incisive run, free roaming might increase the likelihood etc.


Then number on here that have given up playing online is testament to their cock-up of MLO. The system last year was adequate yet they made superstars even more obtainable, and the introduction of team types only reduces the presence of individuality further.
Click to expand...

The superstar problem is a separate issue, but specifically the Team Types give you more options and increase individuality in a teamwide sense, and I rotate team types to focus on varied playstyles periodically.

In real life a manager can look at all the individual traits of players in his team, and set them up to play how he wants them to. For example a technical passing game (e.g. Arsenal/Swansea), where all players practice and emphasize first touch ball control, passing accuracy, dribble accuracy etc. with penalties for other stats.

Or he can set them up like Stoke and play a physical game, using superior body balance to battle and outmuscle/shove players off the ball, and use superior jumping and heading abilities to dominate setpieces.

He can use speed legitimately to play in a fast and direct style reminiscent of Arsenal's Invincibles, with fast counterattacking, getting the ball quickly from end to end, or using the wings to well to emphasize speed. It can be abused by players online in pes, but this type of gameplay has a function in real life, and can be countered within the game, just like in real life.

Or he can just play a balanced style that incorporates a lot of elements. It's all there in PES.

Disagree. The changes they've made are cosmetic, and only use to aggravate (sick of skipping repetitive cutscenes or ignoring nonsensical requests from players). Not only that, but they actually removed depth by getting rid of both individual training and any thorough search system.
Click to expand...


Master league, in some respects depth has been removed, in some it has been added. I personally think the training type adds more 'team' depth, for example for the next couple of weeks you may want to increase technical ability to improve technique, but then switch to conditioning to help recover, physical to get stuck in when necessary etc. But I can understand your individual training complaint. The search system is the same as in MLO, you can do advanced searches for anything, specific stat abilities, positions etc.

Again, as I said before, the removal of playing cards and stats has meant both passing and dribbling are less individualistic than before.
Click to expand...

Just because some cards have been removed does not mean individuality as a whole is compromised. I'd like the defensive cards back too, but that doesn't now mean all defenders play the same. Some stat have been merged, some stats are new, but taken as a whole, those things you mentioned don't not sweep away the entire ethos of individuality that has always been in PES. Are you looking closely enough if you feel that all teams and all players play the same with no individuality whatsoever?


PES 12 has a lot going for it, but for every step forward it's taken two back IMO. I've mildly enjoyed it in bursts this year, particularly offline against the CPU (which I believe has improved in abundance). But it really is unacceptably inadequate in a number of areas, some of which are only down to some really questionable design decisions.
Click to expand...


As I mentioned, one man's meat is another man's poison, so I actually feel sorry for the Konami PES team because they must be thinking who they are supposed to listen to! Last year I enjoyed the more pronounced weight of the players, but so many complained of a lack of responsiveness. Which was fine to me. Now they've added more responsiveness, some want the more pronounced weight back, which hasn't gone completely, just that it was probably more pronounced in the previous game. I also enjoyed the slower paced, defensive focus similar to PES 5, this year is more like PES 6's shift to favour an attacking focus, but that doesn't mean I can't enjoy the game and that it has no balance whatsoever between attack and defence, because they've also refined the hold up play and defensive ai which is now better than it was in 2011. It might be unfortunately easier to exploit (increased responsiveness+speed merchants etc.) but you're not at a complete loss if you master the game.

You can't please everyone, naturally, but there has to be a middle ground somewhere, or we'll all go crazy! For me with any complaint/flaw/bug I wonder, even as infuriating as it may well be, a genuine grievance which the PES team seemed sloppy on, or certainly could have done better on, throughout the overall vision and achievements of the game, how much is this really really really affecting me? Is it a game-destroying-game-breaker that makes me want to scream, howl, and play fifa, ditching pes completely or can I live with it, manage it through gameplay and strategic choices and enjoy the game's good points, even in bursts as you've said Danny? Without wishing to patronize anyone, it is the old cliched glass half full/half empty notion. Most of the major complaints I see on here aren't gamebreakers for me personally post-patch, some big ones need to be definitely addressed and shouldn't be overlooked but as I keep repeating there is enjoyment to be had there, if you want it.

Whatever they do with 2013, it'll get criticism, and praise, but how many critics will be willing to give a fair balance to the positives and enjoy the game, not make it out as another terrible game from Konami who are used to producing terrible games and only make terrible games. In fact, there's no point looking forward to 2013 according to some, as it'll probably be a terrible game...
 
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Re: PES 2013 Discussion Thread .......

I hope we will have much more slots for tactics and formation.
now we have 3 slots, what were they thinking...
 
Re: PES 2013 Discussion Thread .......

Anyone else think a new engine is coming this year? Seabass said PES 2013 will be very different, Adam said a new engine is coming then changed his mind.....could he be playing tricks leading up to a big surprise on the 24th? We have heard nothing from Seabass after he said PES 2013 would be very different...I have a feeling Konami have got something up their sleeve.
 
Re: PES 2013 Discussion Thread .......

Seabass says every year the next PES will be very different, that's his job. Do you expect him to say that PES2013 willbe more of the same? He wants us to jump on that hype-train.
And it seems to work too...
 
Re: PES 2013 Discussion Thread .......

Flaw3d Genius said:
Anyone else think a new engine is coming this year? Seabass said PES 2013 will be very different, Adam said a new engine is coming then changed his mind.....could he be playing tricks leading up to a big surprise on the 24th? We have heard nothing from Seabass after he said PES 2013 would be very different...I have a feeling Konami have got something up their sleeve.
Click to expand...

I remember Seabass interview in 2010. He said: "Pes 2011 is a good basic for futere" It's mean existing engine will be upgrade in next Pes game. Maybe KONAMI use some new technology in Pes 2013 to make animations more realistic or something like that. A few month ago I thought about new engine but not right now.
 
Re: PES 2013 Discussion Thread .......

shorty alien said:
It's all subjective, so what is valid to me may not be valid to you, obviously. Even though some may hate the game, others find numerous positives, and the only thing that annoys me is the tendency on this forum over the last few months on at the moment to vilify those that actually enjoy the game and find positives in it as accepting sub-standard gameplay, kissing the backsides of konami or simply becoming part of their pr machine.




The speed burst is not gimmicky, it happens in real life. Players can accelerate quickly from a standing start or even while mobile, the inclusion this year has actually left me wondering why it hasn't been implemented all this time in previous versions.


The dribbling remains an achievement for me, starting with PES 2009's d-pad contextual dribbling system, they have refined it with each version and arrived at a brilliant depiction of the art of dribbling. Dribbling really is an art with this game, I can minutely place my player's feet where ever I want with the well programmed footplanting, it is intuitive and I can feel weight shifts, momentum, leg placements, inertia, and even more with or without R2. With the better dribblers it is even more pronounced, just like in real life.

I don't know about you but I can feel the differences between players. People asked for more responsive players and they delivered. Pes 2011 does have more weight to the players but it hasn't gone completely from PES 2012, they are professional footballers, so there has to be some degree of professionalism. Gattuso and Nesta are slower and more cumbersome compared to some players, try ones like Mertesacker and you'll also feel it. Now whether they could do even more to further the differences is another point, but, it is a myth to say that all players control the same, I've personally noticed subtle and larger differences at play. Not all players control the same.




For me better and more fluid 360 movement, increased dribbling controls and intuitiveness plus refined defensive hold up play make for improved 1-on-1 situations.




Zero passing is for me a triumph. I didn't want konami to go down the fifa route with pass assistance settings, Seabass had a 'freedom of passing' vision with 2011 but didn't fully realize it. I thinkg they've have achieved it with 2012''s zero passing, but chickened out and thought it would be too hard for the majority to have that one standard of free passing, so they added assist options in order to placate more casual fans and those who preferred more assistance. They should have kept it as zero, one system.

Ambiguous stat interpretation? I think what you said counts for assisted passing, where the stat differences are less, but not for zero! On zero at least, Xavi passes like Xavi, D'alessandro like D'alessandro, the better passers have more of an increase in accuracy and pass speed, with the likelihood of a good pass much greater. I can really use power selection and angles depending on foot placement and balls physics which can change in a split second to make amazing passes with the above, and I'm more confident I can pull them off due to their amazing passing stats.

They've combined this with the player's freedom in directing, but it is not too free, stats DO have a say in the nature of the pass otherwise you wouldn't need stats and all the skill would depend on the player alone, like it does in FIFA manual. You call it a massive step back, I call it a massive step forward. I can't go back and play the previous PES games now that I have tasted the combined freedom and stat based zero assistance passing of 2012.




Dummy runs happen to take away defenders, and diagonal runs happen also. You can even see them happening on the trailer demonstrations for the game, which shows in game footage. That is not just PR that was dropped for the full game, I have personally witnessed it happening. A lot of it is to do with team style settings that can be tweaked and adjusted like player support, also the individuality in stats, such as a player's attacking level and his teamwork stat, some cards such as incisive run, free roaming might increase the likelihood etc.




The superstar problem is a separate issue, but specifically the Team Types give you more options and increase individuality in a teamwide sense, and I rotate team types to focus on varied playstyles periodically.

In real life a manager can look at all the individual traits of players in his team, and set them up to play how he wants them to. For example a technical passing game (e.g. Arsenal/Swansea), where all players practice and emphasize first touch ball control, passing accuracy, dribble accuracy etc. with penalties for other stats.

Or he can set them up like Stoke and play a physical game, using superior body balance to battle and outmuscle/shove players off the ball, and use superior jumping and heading abilities to dominate setpieces.

He can use speed legitimately to play in a fast and direct style reminiscent of Arsenal's Invincibles, with fast counterattacking, getting the ball quickly from end to end, or using the wings to well to emphasize speed. It can be abused by players online in pes, but this type of gameplay has a function in real life, and can be countered within the game, just like in real life.

Or he can just play a balanced style that incorporates a lot of elements. It's all there in PES.




Master league, in some respects depth has been removed, in some it has been added. I personally think the training type adds more 'team' depth, for example for the next couple of weeks you may want to increase technical ability to improve technique, but then switch to conditioning to help recover, physical to get stuck in when necessary etc. But I can understand your individual training complaint. The search system is the same as in MLO, you can do advanced searches for anything, specific stat abilities, positions etc.



Just because some cards have been removed does not mean individuality as a whole is compromised. I'd like the defensive cards back too, but that doesn't now mean all defenders play the same. Some stat have been merged, some stats are new, but taken as a whole, those things you mentioned don't not sweep away the entire ethos of individuality that has always been in PES. Are you looking closely enough if you feel that all teams and all players play the same with no individuality whatsoever?





As I mentioned, one man's meat is another man's poison, so I actually feel sorry for the Konami PES team because they must be thinking who they are supposed to listen to! Last year I enjoyed the more pronounced weight of the players, but so many complained of a lack of responsiveness. Which was fine to me. Now they've added more responsiveness, some want the more pronounced weight back, which hasn't gone completely, just that it was probably more pronounced in the previous game. I also enjoyed the slower paced, defensive focus similar to PES 5, this year is more like PES 6's shift to favour an attacking focus, but that doesn't mean I can't enjoy the game and that it has no balance whatsoever between attack and defence, because they've also refined the hold up play and defensive ai which is now better than it was in 2011. It might be unfortunately easier to exploit (increased responsiveness+speed merchants etc.) but you're not at a complete loss if you master the game.

You can't please everyone, naturally, but there has to be a middle ground somewhere, or we'll all go crazy! For me with any complaint/flaw/bug I wonder, even as infuriating as it may well be, a genuine grievance which the PES team seemed sloppy on, or certainly could have done better on, throughout the overall vision and achievements of the game, how much is this really really really affecting me? Is it a game-destroying-game-breaker that makes me want to scream, howl, and play fifa, ditching pes completely or can I live with it, manage it through gameplay and strategic choices and enjoy the game's good points, even in bursts as you've said Danny? Without wishing to patronize anyone, it is the old cliched glass half full/half empty notion. Most of the major complaints I see on here aren't gamebreakers for me personally post-patch, some big ones need to be definitely addressed and shouldn't be overlooked but as I keep repeating there is enjoyment to be had there, if you want it.

Whatever they do with 2013, it'll get criticism, and praise, but how many critics will be willing to give a fair balance to the positives and enjoy the game, not make it out as another terrible game from Konami who are used to producing terrible games and only make terrible games. In fact, there's no point looking forward to 2013 according to some, as it'll probably be a terrible game...
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Agree with pretty much Shorty says.

I have found a new depth to PES this last month, and IMO, it's a fantastic game, with a couple of minor issues (offline).

For the first time I have actually taken stock, and now appreciate the kind of problems KONAMI are up against, and like you say Shorty, it's mission impossible for them in a way.

The simplest point to elaborate on of yours is this responsiveness thing. I was, like you, fond of last years player response, but the outcry in general was that the players turned like robots. Now they are made players more responsive, the outcry is for far less response. It's a no win situation. For me, I would say the players have a little bit too much response but only needs to be toned down a touch.

I'm also not with these people that trumpet this line out - 'the game needs to be easy to pick up and play, but hard to master'.

No, no, no.

I want the game to be virtually impossible to play, for at least a month. This game has provided huge longevity for me. I loved PES 2011, I'll make no bones about it. But I could recreate patterns of play on it. This game, it doesn't have ANY patterns of play that you can use to your advantage. You can apply tactics and strategies on a consistent basis, but the game feels so unlimited in virtually every aspect, that it's impossible to beat the CPU with set moves, tried and tested.

This years game saw me lose or draw, 15, YES 15, games in a row v Napoli in the demo's. To me, this is fkin awesome. I had to change my entire philosophy and style of play. Even this last month I've really learned to appreciate that 'more in attack' isn't the best way forward; more in midfield is!

It's the first game of football where I really have to think about players who have endeavour and work rate traits over and above just picking 'the best XI' every game.

If they can build on 2012 in terms of aesthetics, then I would be a happy customer.
 
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